Talk:Killing of Osama bin Laden: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 04:06, 2 May 2011 editAbhishikt (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users2,791 edits →Previous death reports ← Previous edit		Revision as of 04:07, 2 May 2011 edit undo71.146.31.102 (talk) →Article now locked Next edit →
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	Could you please unlock it, no evidence of vandalism so far. We could really use crowdsourced writing right now. People from all over the world are coming here for information. Can you only lock it if there is evidence of vandalism?		Could you please unlock it, no evidence of vandalism so far. We could really use crowdsourced writing right now. People from all over the world are coming here for information. Can you only lock it if there is evidence of vandalism?
	--] (]) 03:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)		--] (]) 03:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
	:It's already been vandalized. Sorry. -] (]) 03:57, 2 May 2011 (UTC)		:It's already been vandalized. Sorry. (Reply:) SORRY WONT CUT IT, MISTER!-] (]) 03:57, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
	::I don't think many people will have information that isn't easily obtainable on hundreds of news reports ] (]) 04:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)		::I don't think many people will have information that isn't easily obtainable on hundreds of news reports ] (]) 04:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

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	==Previous death reports==		==Previous death reports==
	The below text is from the main ] article, and some of it could be merged into this article. I'm leaving it here on the talk page for now. --] <small>(])</small> 03:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)		The below text is from the main ] article, and some of it could be merged into this article. I'm leaving it here on the talk page for now. --] <small>(])</small> 03:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

	:Nice. I was about to do the same. :) -Abhishikt 04:06, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

	===Text===		===Text===

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Unconfirmed

This death can't be confirmed yet, even if the US President declares it. I'd suggest adding more "supposedly" to this events that are present in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.160.173.137 (talk) 03:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Reportedly

Reportedly he was in a mansion in Pakistan, just outside Islamabad. Magu (talk) 03:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Firefight

Obama said he died after a firefight —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.217.101 (talk) 03:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

no he didn't i heard his speech to u.s. public thats not what he said

Delete????

Come on you guys - Are you really saying that this article deserves to be deleted? I think that it is pretty apparent that there will soon be plenty of material to use to populate this article. KConWiki (talk) 03:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Take it to afd after everything cools down--Guerillero | My Talk 03:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This is already getting worldwide attention plus the section on the main page of Osama bin laden about his death rumors and such can easily be merged here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

There is plenty of space in the original article on Osama bin Laden. I seconded PROD. This article is premature and unnecessary.--Cerejota (talk) 03:37, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no sense in deleting the article. It is just going to be re-created within an hour at most. (Sk5893 (talk) 03:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC))

I agree, there will be lots of research and analysis into this death. It will balloon to many pages within a week

Agreed, this article will be written over and over again. Do not delete and lets focus on expanding it. Iksnyrk (talk) 03:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I wrote this article, you guys are extremely nice. You made my...well...night :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.31.102 (talk) 03:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Merge

No need to merge as this will become a big enough topic in itself. Already it passes WP:GNG with the amount of news stories around. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 03:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Reject - there is a big difference between bogus reports and his actual death. Rklawton (talk) 03:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Merge proposal withdrawn As the person who first put up the merge I am withdrawing it as I see that this will balloon over time. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Article now locked

Why? 86.147.217.101 (talk) 03:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

To stop anonymous users from vandalizing.--RaptorHunter (talk) 03:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Because of the crazy amount of vandalism and unhelpful edits. Sorry if this prevents you from adding to the article, but you can make an edit request here on the talk page. Nolelover 03:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Could you please unlock it, no evidence of vandalism so far. We could really use crowdsourced writing right now. People from all over the world are coming here for information. Can you only lock it if there is evidence of vandalism? --86.147.217.101 (talk) 03:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

It's already been vandalized. Sorry. (Reply:) SORRY WONT CUT IT, MISTER!-Jason A. Quest (talk) 03:57, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think many people will have information that isn't easily obtainable on hundreds of news reports Terlob (talk) 04:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand ...

Talk:Osama bin Laden's death doesn't even have any content ... can someone redirect it to this topic ? Ta --195.137.93.171 (talk) 03:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

done--RaptorHunter (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Previous death reports

The below text is from the main Osama bin Laden article, and some of it could be merged into this article. I'm leaving it here on the talk page for now. --Aude (talk) 03:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Text

Extended content
December 2001 Quoting an unnamed Taliban official, the Pakistan Observer reported that Bin Laden died of untreated lung complications and was buried in an unmarked grave in Tora Bora on December 15. This report was picked up by Fox News in the United States on December 26. Also on December 26, the Egyptian newspaper AlWafd - Daily carried a short obituary by a prominent official of the Afghan Taliban, who was allegedly present at the funeral, stating Bin Laden had been buried on or about December 13: "(Osama bin Laden) suffered serious complications and died a natural, quiet death. He was buried in Tora Bora, a funeral attended by 30 Al Qaeda fighters, close members of his family and friends from the Taliban. By the Wahhabi tradition, no mark was left on the grave" A videotape was released on December 27 showing a gaunt, unwell Bin Laden, prompting an unnamed White House aide to comment that it could have been made shortly before his death. On CNN, Dr Sanjay Gupta commented that Bin Laden's left arm never moved during the video, suggesting a recent stroke and possibly a symptom of kidney failure. According to Pakistani President Musharraf, Bin Laden required two dialysis machines, which also suggests kidney failure. "I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a... kidney patient," Musharraf said. If Bin Laden suffered kidney failure, he would require a sterile environment, electricity, and continuous attention by a team of specialists, Gupta said. In April 2002, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stated, "We have heard neither hide nor hair of him since, oh, about December in terms of anything hard." FBI Counterterrorism chief Dale Watson and President Karzai of Afghanistan also expressed the opinion that Bin Laden probably died at this time. October 2002: In a CNN interview, Afghan President Hamid Karzai stated that "I would come to believe that probably is dead." April 2005: The Sydney Morning Herald stated "Dr Clive Williams, director of terrorism studies at the Australian National University, says documents provided by an Indian colleague suggested bin Laden died of massive organ failure in April last year ... 'It's hard to prove or disprove these things because there hasn't really been anything that allows you to make a judgment one way or the other,' Dr. Williams said." Late 2005 CIA disbands "Bin Laden Issue Station" codenamed "Alec Station", the CIA's bin Laden tracking unit, 1996–2005 September 2006: On September 23, 2006, the French newspaper L'Est Républicain quoted a report from the French secret service (Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure, DGSE) stating that Osama bin Laden had died in Pakistan on August 23, 2006, after contracting a case of typhoid fever that paralyzed his lower limbs. According to the newspaper, Saudi security services first heard of bin Laden's alleged death on September 4, 2006. The alleged death was reported by the Saudi Arabian secret service to its government, which reported it to the French secret service. The French defense minister Michèle Alliot-Marie expressed her regret that the report had been published while French President Jacques Chirac declared that bin Laden's death had not been confirmed. American authorities also cannot confirm reports of bin Laden's death, with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice saying only, "No comment, and no knowledge." Later, CNN's Nic Robertson said that he had received confirmation from an anonymous Saudi source that the Saudi intelligence community has known for a while that bin Laden has a water-borne illness, but that he had heard no reports that it was specifically typhoid or that he had died. November 2007: In an interview with political interviewer David Frost taken on November 2, 2007, the Pakistani politician and Pakistan Peoples Party leader Benazir Bhutto claimed that bin Laden had been murdered by Omar Sheikh. During her answer to a question pertaining to the identities of those who had previously attempted her own assassination, Bhutto named Sheikh as a possible suspect while referring to him as "the man who murdered Osama bin Laden." Despite the weight of such a statement, neither Bhutto nor Frost attempted to clarify it during the remainder of the interview. Omar Chatriwala, a journalist for Al Jazeera English, claims that he chose not to pursue the story at the time because he believes Bhutto misspoke, meaning to say Sheikh murdered Daniel Pearl and not Osama Bin Laden. The BBC drew criticism when it rebroadcast the Frost/Bhutto interview on its website, but edited out Bhutto's statement regarding Osama Bin Laden. Later the BBC apologized and replaced the edited version with the complete interview. In October 2007, Bhutto stated in an interview that she would cooperate with the American military in targeting Osama bin Laden. March 2009: In an essay published in The American Spectator in March 2009, international relations professor Angelo Codevilla of Boston University argued that Osama bin Laden had been dead for many years. April 2009: During an interview with the Telegraph, Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari raised the prospect that Osama bin Laden could be dead after he said that intelligence officials could find "no trace" of the al-Qaeda chief. Mr Zardari's predecessor, Pervez Musharraf, similarly suggested that the Saudi terror chief could be dead. Additionally, Pakistan's intelligence agencies also believe Osama bin Laden may be dead. October 2009: An article in the British tabloid Daily Mail points out that the theory that Bin Laden died in 2001 "is gaining credence among political commentators, respected academics and even terror experts" and notes that the mounting evidence that supports the claim makes the theory "worthy of examination".

Extended content

December 2001 Quoting an unnamed Taliban official, the Pakistan Observer reported that Bin Laden died of untreated lung complications and was buried in an unmarked grave in Tora Bora on December 15. This report was picked up by Fox News in the United States on December 26. Also on December 26, the Egyptian newspaper AlWafd - Daily carried a short obituary by a prominent official of the Afghan Taliban, who was allegedly present at the funeral, stating Bin Laden had been buried on or about December 13:

"(Osama bin Laden) suffered serious complications and died a natural, quiet death. He was buried in Tora Bora, a funeral attended by 30 Al Qaeda fighters, close members of his family and friends from the Taliban. By the Wahhabi tradition, no mark was left on the grave"

A videotape was released on December 27 showing a gaunt, unwell Bin Laden, prompting an unnamed White House aide to comment that it could have been made shortly before his death. On CNN, Dr Sanjay Gupta commented that Bin Laden's left arm never moved during the video, suggesting a recent stroke and possibly a symptom of kidney failure. According to Pakistani President Musharraf, Bin Laden required two dialysis machines, which also suggests kidney failure. "I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a... kidney patient," Musharraf said. If Bin Laden suffered kidney failure, he would require a sterile environment, electricity, and continuous attention by a team of specialists, Gupta said. In April 2002, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stated, "We have heard neither hide nor hair of him since, oh, about December in terms of anything hard." FBI Counterterrorism chief Dale Watson and President Karzai of Afghanistan also expressed the opinion that Bin Laden probably died at this time.

October 2002: In a CNN interview, Afghan President Hamid Karzai stated that "I would come to believe that probably is dead."

April 2005: The Sydney Morning Herald stated "Dr Clive Williams, director of terrorism studies at the Australian National University, says documents provided by an Indian colleague suggested bin Laden died of massive organ failure in April last year ... 'It's hard to prove or disprove these things because there hasn't really been anything that allows you to make a judgment one way or the other,' Dr. Williams said."

Late 2005 CIA disbands "Bin Laden Issue Station" codenamed "Alec Station", the CIA's bin Laden tracking unit, 1996–2005

September 2006: On September 23, 2006, the French newspaper L'Est Républicain quoted a report from the French secret service (Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure, DGSE) stating that Osama bin Laden had died in Pakistan on August 23, 2006, after contracting a case of typhoid fever that paralyzed his lower limbs. According to the newspaper, Saudi security services first heard of bin Laden's alleged death on September 4, 2006. The alleged death was reported by the Saudi Arabian secret service to its government, which reported it to the French secret service. The French defense minister Michèle Alliot-Marie expressed her regret that the report had been published while French President Jacques Chirac declared that bin Laden's death had not been confirmed. American authorities also cannot confirm reports of bin Laden's death, with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice saying only, "No comment, and no knowledge." Later, CNN's Nic Robertson said that he had received confirmation from an anonymous Saudi source that the Saudi intelligence community has known for a while that bin Laden has a water-borne illness, but that he had heard no reports that it was specifically typhoid or that he had died.

November 2007: In an interview with political interviewer David Frost taken on November 2, 2007, the Pakistani politician and Pakistan Peoples Party leader Benazir Bhutto claimed that bin Laden had been murdered by Omar Sheikh. During her answer to a question pertaining to the identities of those who had previously attempted her own assassination, Bhutto named Sheikh as a possible suspect while referring to him as "the man who murdered Osama bin Laden." Despite the weight of such a statement, neither Bhutto nor Frost attempted to clarify it during the remainder of the interview. Omar Chatriwala, a journalist for Al Jazeera English, claims that he chose not to pursue the story at the time because he believes Bhutto misspoke, meaning to say Sheikh murdered Daniel Pearl and not Osama Bin Laden. The BBC drew criticism when it rebroadcast the Frost/Bhutto interview on its website, but edited out Bhutto's statement regarding Osama Bin Laden. Later the BBC apologized and replaced the edited version with the complete interview. In October 2007, Bhutto stated in an interview that she would cooperate with the American military in targeting Osama bin Laden.

March 2009: In an essay published in The American Spectator in March 2009, international relations professor Angelo Codevilla of Boston University argued that Osama bin Laden had been dead for many years.

April 2009: During an interview with the Telegraph, Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari raised the prospect that Osama bin Laden could be dead after he said that intelligence officials could find "no trace" of the al-Qaeda chief. Mr Zardari's predecessor, Pervez Musharraf, similarly suggested that the Saudi terror chief could be dead. Additionally, Pakistan's intelligence agencies also believe Osama bin Laden may be dead.

October 2009: An article in the British tabloid Daily Mail points out that the theory that Bin Laden died in 2001 "is gaining credence among political commentators, respected academics and even terror experts" and notes that the mounting evidence that supports the claim makes the theory "worthy of examination".

Merge (actual proposal)

Per Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#Redundant_content_forks this is pointless. Until there is enough written information to justify forking out the content from the Osama article, this should be a redirect to the Death section to concentrate effort there. No need for X of Y when Y isn't a very complete article. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ _¢ 03:52, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

No. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:54, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict):But when Y is more significant and notable than X it deserves it's own article instead of one sentence in the article about X yes? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 03:56, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not saying it only deserves a sentence. It deserves a lot! But the rest of the Osama article could use love, and this is a perfect time for that. Y is significant because of the actions of X. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ _¢ 04:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Give it time already please, people are so eager to zap this article into dust. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:56, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Because its a redundant content fork of an article that isn't big enough to warrant splitting off sections of it into seperate articles. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ _¢ 04:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This article is going to explode with details, international reactions, operation information, etc. Keep--do not merge! --Another Believer _(Talk) 03:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Right, and when it does, and its too big to fit in Osama's article, we can split it out. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ _¢ 12:02 am, Today (UTC−4)

Get real. It's already linked to on the Main Page. It's not going anywhere. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:03, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

The link is easy to change. Stop being condescending. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ _¢ 04:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

^ David Ray Griffin, Osama Bin Laden: Dead or Alive?, pp. 3–5.
"Report: Bin Laden Already Dead". Fox News. December 26, 2001. Archived from the original on October 18, 2006. Retrieved 2010-05-25.
^ Reid, Sue (September 11, 2009). "Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years – and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror?". Daily Mail. London. Retrieved 2010-05-24.
^ "Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis". CNN. January 21, 2002. Archived from the original on October 23, 2006. Retrieved 2010-05-24.
^ "Musharraf: bin Laden likely dead". CNN. January 19, 2002. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
Robert Burns (April 26, 2002). "Bin Laden Missing since December". Dessert News. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Bin Laden 'probably' dead". BBC News. 18 July 2002. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Karzai: bin Laden 'probably' dead". CNN. October 7, 2002. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Karzai: bin Laden 'probably' dead". CNN. October 7, 2002. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Expert says bin Laden could be dead". Australian Associated Press in the Sydney Morning Herald. January 16, 2006. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"C.I.A. Closes Unit Focused on Capture of bin Laden". New York Times. July 4, 2006. Retrieved 2010-05-20. The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said.
"Officials, friends can't confirm Bin Laden death report". CNN. September 24, 2006. Archived from the original on January 3, 2008. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"French paper says bin Laden died in Pakistan". Reuters. 2006-09-23.
Sammari, Laïd (2006-09-23). "Oussama Ben Laden serait mort" (in French). L'Est Républicain. Archived from the original on October 11, 2007. Retrieved 2006-09-23.
"Chirac says no evidence bin Laden has died". MSNBC.com/AP. September 24, 2006. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Information sur la mort de ben Laden: Washington ne confirme pas". Le Monde/Agence France-Presse (in French). 2006-09-23.
Anna Willard and David Morgan (2006-09-23). "France, US, unable to confirm report bin Laden dead". Reuters.
"Doubts over bin Laden death". Melbourne: The Age. September 24, 2006. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Conflicting reports: Bin Laden could be dead or ill". CNN. 2006-09-23.
"Frost over the World – Benazir Bhutto – Nov 2, 07". Retrieved 2008-01-15.
"Bhutto and Bin Laden in the rumor mill". the synthetic jungle. December 30, 2007. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
Steve Herrmann (4 January 2008). "Editing Interviews". BBC News. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
"Bhutto would take US aid against bin Laden". The Boston Globe. Associated Press. October 2, 2007. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
Angelo M. Codevilla (March 2009). "Osama bin Elvis". The American Spectator. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
Dean Nelson and Emal Khan in Peshawar (27 April 2009). "Pakistan's President says Osama bin Laden could be dead". London: Telegraph. Retrieved 2010-05-20.

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