Revision as of 00:42, 12 January 2007

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. It provides for suggestions by Arbitrators and other users and for comment by arbitrators, the parties and others. After the analysis of /Evidence here and development of proposed principles, findings of fact, and remedies, Arbitrators will vote at /Proposed decision. Anyone who edits should sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they have confidence in on /Proposed decision.

Motions and requests by the parties

Making threats of lawsuits

1) I request that the suggested findings here that Supreme_Cmdr has not engaged in making legal threats be reconsidered based on the Supreme_Cmdr post on this very page below. Thank you, Bill Huffman 04:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC) 2) Further seconded with this diff: ⇒ SWATJester 19:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

I second. ⇒ SWATJester 18:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed temporary injunctions

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Questions to the parties

Proposed final decision

Proposed case summary

The Derek Smart article which has been the subject of an ongoing edit war. While the arbitration committee does not routinely intervene in edit wars, the community has requested assistance, because of:

• apparent involvement of people affiliated with the article's subject in editing,
• the apparent extensive involvement of sock puppets,
• concerns that single-purpose editors may have been recruited to further the edit war, and
• questions on the appropriateness of sources used for the article.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

As creator of original request, I find all 4 of these issues to be relevant to the case. ⇒ SWATJester 09:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. These seem to be the core issues. - (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 18:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Everything I've read on this page as posted thusfar is a concise and exact summary and I couldn't see the situation possibly interpreted any better. --Jeff 01:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Proposed principles

Conflict of interest

1) Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest codifies a principle at Misplaced Pages that editors should refrain from making significant edits (other than undisputed corrections of factual errors) to articles about themselves. This proscription extends beyond the article subject themselves to include affiliates and others acting at the direction of the subject.

Individuals who wish to improve articles about themselves (other than through correction of undisputed factual errors) are instead encouraged to:

• comment on the article's discussion page, or
• contact a volunteer via email for assistance.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

Transparency in editing

2) Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry provides that editors may not use multiple identities to:

1. violate WP:3RR or other policy,
2. evade a block, or
3. avoid scrutiny from other editors.

While not codified in Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry, this committee has long maintained that disruptive, single-purpose accounts that appear to be acting in concert may be treated as a though operated by a single editor.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Seconded in all respects. ⇒ SWATJester 09:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Article quality and sourcing

3) Neutral point of view is the foundation of our work. Assertions, especially controversial ones, should be sourced. An important element of NPOV is that critical material should not be given undue weight in the overall context of any article.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Seconded, however it should be noted that in this case, the subject is notable for having a significant lack of positive material available anywhere about him, and is famous/notorious for having a significant amount of critical material about him, something that he has relished and cultivated into further notoriety. Given this dispensation, I would argue that undue weight should be considered in the light of the entire population of material available (i.e. if out of all the sources on a subject, 90% are critical and only 10% are positive, including significantly more critical material than positive material would not be undue weight, given it's accurate representation of the population of material on the subject). ⇒ SWATJester 09:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur with Swatjester. Even positive articles and reviews seems to come with the disclaimer about Smart's controversial, confrontational nature. I assert that the majority of citable sources out there are going to be negative or at least come with this type of rider. - (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats just blatant nonsense. It just goes to show that you editors do not know this person at all. Let me repeat your statement so that others can see the ludicrousness of it:

'the subject is notable for having a significant lack of positive material available anywhere about him, and is famous/notorious for having a significant amount of critical material about him'

Really? Well then, why don't you just go ahead and post examples of this premise instead of making blanket statements? All it takes is a single visit to the subject's website news area, as well as a Google article search to find that, apart from posts by individuals on forums and Usenet, not a single negative article about this person exists. Not one single article. Not one. Please, prove me wrong, go ahead and post one single article, from a source that is WP:RS that casts the subject in the light you portray and we'll go from there.

This is the problem. You folks are making this whole thing personal and completely forgetting that nobody gives a damn about your personal opinions. Wiki is an encyclopedia and this entry is covered under WP:BLP and as such has to adhere to strict guidelines, not conjecture, falsehoods, personal opinions, libel and the like.

You guys suceeded in driving away other notable neutral editors who got fed up with this behaviour. Since WarwahkSP and I are the only ones left fighting to keep this article neutral, we're the targets of all kinds of actions from you guys; as if we had anything to gain or lose. Fact is, we're just not going to let you guys get away with it. The Derek Smart talk page archives is rife with other neutral editors who have long since left before of YOUR behavior and pov-pushing agenda. In fact, several of them (e.g. User:Bblackmoor have posted such on their own Wiki pages.

Supreme_Cmdr 21:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

SwatJester posted on the talk page that 99% of news about Derek Smart is negative. My reply to that is below.

I would like to see you post proof of your claim that 99% of the news about Derek Smart is negative. This is yet another blanket statement that you folks make and with no basis in reality nor which pass any form of the WP:RS muster. If what you claim were true, well then, why should a source such as Usenet which fails WP:RS, WP:BLP and WP:EL be the only place where you can find such posts? Where are the WP:RS articles? Surely if 99% news about Derek Smart were negative, you wouldn't need the Usenet to find them would you? Nope, you wouldn't. Further, it is already clear that the Usenet posts were about The Great Flame War. Since when are people at their best in any flame war? So, even if there was negativity toward him and his supporters on Usenet as a result of The Great Flame War, how does that have anything to do with a WP:BLP article about a public figure? Supreme_Cmdr 22:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not need to know the article subject to write about him. In fact, that places me in a better position because I can be objective and not have Conflict of Interest. It appears that you, however have. I'd also advise you to review WP:OWN, comments like the one you just made "Fact is, we're just not going to let you guys get away with it. " are not in line with that policy, and appear especially hypocritical when you claim that we are all making this personal. Last time I've checked, I've edited at least 3,000 distinct articles on wikipedia, and I'm well over 8,000 edits last I checked. Less than 1% are on Derek Smart. SIGNIFICANTLY less than 1% are on Derek Smart. Please don't presume to lecture me about the workings of Misplaced Pages and policy, and being objective and claim that I have some personal stake in this, especially when you have a significant portion of your contributions to the Derek Smart article (possibly all of them? I haven't checked in some time), an article you've received a community ban from no less. I've been as impartial as possible with this article, I've only made 2 or 3 reverts on the article and that's it, the entire contribution I've made was mediation on the talk page, and the reverts I made were in line with consensus on the talk. I'm coming seriously close to losing my patience with this. I would like the Arbitrators to understand my position here: I'm a good editor for just over 1 year, I've got no warnings, an upstanding edit history, hell I even was interviewed recently in the news regarding Misplaced Pages. And the behavior and accusations flying around in this case are seriously enough to make me consider wanting to leave the project. It's just not worth that kind of stress. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'd advise the Arbitrators to consider that the behaviors going around here may be affecting other editors the same way. There, I've said my piece. I hope I did it in a way that does not personally attack anyone and is is civil, I've tried not to, but if I did, then I'm sorry and I apologize. ⇒ SWATJester 18:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

It is my opinion that the bulk of people actively editing the Derek Smart article have an axe to grind against the subject of the article: I have no idea why this is so, but it seems manifestly apparent, nonetheless. Consensus may well be that Derek Smart is the spawn of Satan, but consensus is no replacement for verifiable fact. An urban myth does not turn into reality through frequent repetition, and it is my humble opinion that a web site that aspires to be a repository of knowledge should not indulge in the uncritical repetition of rumours. I don't think it should be too difficult to adhere to NPOV and reliable published sources (not rumours, not random and ultimately unverifiable UseNet posts, not "common knowledge" or popular mythology), particularly for a biography of a living person. (Note 1: For what it's worth, to the best of my knowledge I have never played any game Derek Smart has worked on, and I had never even heard of him prior to stumbling across this article last year. Note 2: I find it somewhat disquieting to have my dissatisfaction with Misplaced Pages used in this fashion.1 I may even reconsider what I have on my "about" page. In any event, I do not think it is relevant to the issue at hand.) -- BBlackmoor • 2006-12-28 20:03Z

Use of primary sources

4) The appropriateness of using primary source material, such as an article subject's past posts to UseNET, is at present an evolving and unsettled area of Misplaced Pages policy. The arbitration committee, in its role as an interpreter rather than legislator of policy, offers no opinion on the suitability of such material for inclusion in Misplaced Pages articles.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I understand this, but am not happy with it. Could the committee then make it an agenda to get a consensus on this issue as soon as possible, by whatever means necessary? ⇒ SWATJester 09:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I too am disappointed that the ruling on this matter is not more clear, but do appreciate the ambiguity left to pursue it.--Jeff 06:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you begin the discussion at WPT:RS or another suitable venue. While I don't believe I can speak for the committee on this, my view is that the appropriateness of primary sources varies depending both on the nature of the source and the nature of the use. We have been using the primary/secondary source distinction as a bellwether for the appropriateness of the source. Inappropriate secondary sources are less common than inappropriate primary sources. In utilizing primary sources, we would have to develop a sense of journalistic ethics that has thus far proven elusive. Such a sense of ethics would lead us to refrain from listing the speeding tickets and other traffic infractions for a public figure (which are a matter of public record in many jurisdictions), unless we're writing about Bill Janklow whose unsafe driving is well in the public eye. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

See my remarks on the talk page. Metamagician3000 22:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons

5) Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy, among others, must be strictly enforced on articles about living people. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons explicitely states that poorly sourced negative information should be swiftly removed.

Comment by Arbitrators:

While I share your concern to a degree, I believe that this is better approached from a standpoint of NPOV and undue weight than from a standpoint of sourcing. We have all kinds of NPOV articles about people who are notable chiefly due to something controversial. It can be done well. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. -- Steel 20:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is important. Whatever else is going on in this mess, I have had some peripheral involvement and formed the view that a group of editors wanted to use the article to do a hatchet job on Smart in breach of WP:BLP. It is partly as a result of my intervention that the article leads off by referring to him as a game designer and not as a game designer and usenet warrior (or some such thing; I am exaggerating slightly). I will dig out relevant diffs if anyone believes that necessary. However, if some pro-Smart editors are banned from the article - or from Misplaced Pages more generally - as seems likely, there has to be a way to ensure that WP:BLP is honoured. Misplaced Pages is not a place to pursue grudges left over from some Usenet flame war. Metamagician3000 03:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

You're very right. I believe there exists enough moderate/impartial editors to keep the article clean from external influence of a "hatchet" job. I almost used the word negative, but certain sources materials about the subject do inherently include things that some may consider negative (poor game reviews, for instance). This ArbCom request was started by an impartial editor, and I am also impartial. Certain other editors have less than genuine intentions, but what few contributions they have made have been removed from the article by outside parties already. I personally pledge to keep the article as free from personal attacks and material which is not supported by sources.--Jeff 04:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is very important, but it is a difficult problem with regard to this article, because what makes Derek Smart notable is not suitable for inclusion under WP:BLP. His involvement in the USENET flamewar is what makes him notable (as compared to all of the other independent game developers who don't have Misplaced Pages articles about them). Information about the flamewar is by definition negative and questionably-sourced, but omitting said information would not be NPOV. If a solution can't be found that allows material about the flamewar to be included, I suggest deleting the article due to WP:N. Adam613 16:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Adam has a very succinct (and correct) point. Is it within ArbCom process to address whether the article should be deleted?--Jeff 16:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I should clarify what I meant by "suggest deleting the article". I'm no authority on these matters, but I didn't see anything in the RfAR about deleting the article, so I doubt that is on the table as a remedy. However, removing many of the article's sources IS on the table, and removing the information about the flame war would qualify the article to be (re)nominated for deletion under WP:N, as well as making it impossible to maintain WP:NPOV. Collateral damage, if you will. Adam613 22:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

We should bear in mind that there is a difference between notability (for our purpose) and notoriety. If the games that Smart designed are themselves significant as contributions to the popular culture, then that makes him notable. There may be other game designers who are notable by that criterion who do not yet have articles, but that is not relevant - someone might write those articles tomorrow. If it were well-known to attendees at gaming conventions that he (insert obnoxious or unusual behaviour here, whether it be hitting on female attendees, getting drunk and shouting, wearing a rubber suit and flippers around the hotel, or whatever) that might give him notoriety within certain (perhaps quite wide) circles, but it would not make him notable for the purpose of having a Misplaced Pages article. Metamagician3000 23:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There is no lack of people who have participated in flamewars on UseNet and other venues. In my opinion this does not even merit a mention in an encyclopedia article, much less warrant being a major portion of it. It's petty to the point of absurdity, and I think it's a pretty good indication of the mindset of people who want to tarnish Misplaced Pages with such nonsense. -- BBlackmoor • 2006-12-28 20:03Z

Computer Gaming World had a 4 page article ] (article is currently hosted on the Derek Smart 3000AD server) with the tagline on the magazine cover being: "Attack Me. I can deal with it!" -Derek Smart on Derek Smart. and contains the text: "But if all we had was a lousy game on our hands, there would be no story here, or at least, not one we haven't heard a million times before. The real story is the man himself - Derek Smart, whose notoriety, like Dennis Rodman (to whom some people liken him) or Howard Starn (to whom he likens himself), comes not from what he does but from who he is and what he says."

This is a from the "The #1 PC games Magazine for 20 Years" - If a Reliable Source WP:RS says that his notoriety is more from what he says than what he does, then that statement is Verifiable WP:V and can/should be included in the article (with balance of course). Uncle uncle uncle 21:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In case you missed it (which you clearly did), the article was about Derek Smart and the flamewar. If you have a hard time comprehending the context of what was written, you might want to read it again and save us another pointless debate. Supreme_Cmdr 00:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are saying, can you clarify for me - Yes, I read the article and yes it is about Derek Smart and the flame war. The post I was replying to (the one immediately above the post I made) gave the opinion that "this does not even merit a mention in an encyclopedia article" - I pointed out (and you confirmed) that Computer Gaming World (The #1 PC Games Magazine for 20 Years) gave the flame war a four page article and a mention on the front page. I also noted the reliability WP:RS and verifiability WP:V of that source. Uncle uncle uncle 04:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

BBlackmoor already answered this. The point is that the article is about Derek Smart, not about a flame war. So for you say that the article can be used as WP:RS in order to support your flame war argument, is foolish. This is no different from what myself and others have said all along. That being, Derek Smart is a game developer. Thats what he is notable for. It just so happens that unlike others, he doesn't take crap from anyone. As such, if he is engaged, flames usually ensue. Thats what happens when people engage in argument. So, why does it need to be in the Wiki encyclopedia? By that litmus test, if someone were to capture Derek Smart having an argument with someone at a trade show, that should also be entered into the Wiki. Thats just silly and is just another example of how you folks want to inject nonsense into the Wiki and would do anything to have opposition banned from editing the article. Supreme_Cmdr 18:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

(comments deleted)-- BBlackmoor • 2007-01-11 05:28Z

Please don't impugn the motivations of those who disagree with you. It is a violation of WP:AGF. While there are clearly editors who by their actions have demonstrated that they have an axe to grind, the mere belief that Smart is notable for his internet persona is not of itself an indication of having any such axe. Smart generates a lot of press, not all of it favorable to him, and a lot of it has to do with his internet persona. As the article cited above stated, if Smart were just a developer and nothing but, no one would know who he was. It is his reputation on the internet that makes him notable. Furthermore, if his reputation as a flamer is mentioned in almost every article about him, I really don't see how it is inappropriate for us to mention it. In fact, I'm of the opinion that not mentioning it is a violation of NPOV, as Misplaced Pages should not be in the business of writing hagiographies. --Beaker342 08:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You are still spouting the same unwarranted, baseless, non-factual and argumentative spiel that got us in ArbCom in the first place. Thus far, all of you have made this same claim "Smart generates a lot of press, not all of it favorable to him, and a lot of it has to do with his internet persona". Yet thus far, despite several queries for WP:RS passing proof, NOONE has posted ANY material to back up this claim and NONE of the criteria for such have not been met.

There was that other person posting that 99% of the material on Derek Smart was negative. WP:RS Proof? None.

Then there was the other one about Derek Smart being notable for his persona and not his industry works and games. WP:RS Proof? None.

You can't just post stuff without material to back it up. Thats what WP:RS was clearly designed to prevent. And WP:BLP protects Derek Smart from this and many other violations by you and your friends who do have an axe to grind with Derek Smart and anyone (e.g. myself, WarhawkSP and others) who don't side with you. That is the same mentality that caused the Usenet flamewar and which was sparked, condoned and instigated by the likes of Bill Huffman and co. Supreme_Cmdr 18:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Here Bill, from the Working To Halt Online Abuse website, your state has clear laws about cyberstalking which you may or may not know exist. Please read it and you will see that your actions can only be construed as online stalking. Supreme_Cmdr 18:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

We've posted them TIME after TIME after TIME! Just because you don't accept themd oes NOT mean that we have an axe to grind, and does NOT mean that we haven't posted ANY material to back this up! In this very subsection there is a link to one of the best selling computer games magazines talking about Smart's flamewarring! Don't tell us that Computer Gaming World is not a reliable source, that's just trolling. It's your continued refusal to accept ANY evidence that Smart might have a single flaw that brought us to this ArbCom, not some imaginary axe that you think we have to grind here. ⇒ SWATJester 18:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh please, spare me this crap. You have not posted anything to backup your claims against Derek Smart. If you have, it shouldn't be too hard to POINT THEM OUT. Supreme_Cmdr 18:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Once again you are throwing a blanket over a ludicrous claim. This ArbCom was not about CGW. The CGW article is not about a flame war. It is about Derek Smart. It just so happens to mention flame wars. It wasn't, what you determine to be a flaw (LOL!!!, thats just rich) that brought us to ArbCom. What brought us to ArbCom is that YOU folks want to ignore Wiki policy and guidelines in favor of injecting pov-pushing rhetoric into the Wiki because you don't like him. There is no other reason for it. Now you're calling a troll because you failed to grasp the very essence of my argument. Now why is that not surprising? Supreme_Cmdr 19:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

For starters, and you CANNOT call Gamespy a non reliable source. The article is called "The 25 Dumbest Moments in Gaming", and claims

The whole incident might have died away had Smart's mouth not continued running two miles ahead of his brain. Smart had been posting progress reports and answering questions on the game on AOL and Compuserve, then later on Usenet. The release of the game, though, began what some consider the longest running flame war on the Internet, with Smart and some of his fans on one side, and a whole bunch of detractors on the other. The intricacies of the flame war are very complicated, but there's a good summary of them here.

Hey, guess what the link is when you click "here"....it's the Werewolves.org site that you're so anxious to disallow. I COMPLETELY fail to see, therefore, how you can support any of your claims when I've just now shown you not only a major site doing a MAJOR article on Smart being primarily notable for his flamewar, but ALSO supports the source you disagree with so much as an acceptable link, actually as a "good summary". ⇒ SWATJester 20:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

For starters nothing. Everyone knows that there is at least one negative article about Derek Smart. The point I am making is that you and your friends claim that 99% or the majority or articles about him are negative. Even though I disagree with your example above, that is still just one and hardly qualifies as 99% or majority or whatever metric you guys want to use.

As to your example, how exactly is that negative? That is an opinion from one person. Who is that person to judge another person based on how they react to attack on them or their work? Please. And how exactly does he know that it would have died away? Does he have a crystal ball? Since when does anything on the Net just die away, given the scope of what we're discussing. When Smart left Usenet, did the flame war die away? I'm waiting for the first person to say yes, before I run off to Google and prove them wrong.

Your argument is baseless and you're just clutching at straws. Supreme_Cmdr 22:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand your opinion as to the fairness of weighting, if I have read and properly interpreted what you mean, Supreme_Cmdr. However you state that there is 'at least' one negative article about Derek Smart, what ratio would you consider to be 'bad press' to 'good press' regarding the man? It should be noted that though your objections are definitely coming from an understandable source, this article seems to represent an opinion from a notable source, thus it would seem to lend credence that there is at least a some evidence of negative opinion about the man. Even were they misguided notable opinions (i.e. people beleiving that there were witches at the times of the salem witch trials), to ignore the sources wholesale could well be detrimental to this wiki, and in fact to our picture of Derek Smart, the man. Whether he is a beleaguered man beset by those who do not want to accept him or what he does, or whether he is a proud man that is prone to becoming overly vitriolic in the face of criticism, or a mix of both, as we all know of course we are not here to uncover that. I think we ideally are here only to report what has been stated. Once again, I beleive that if we say 'free ticket, no one knows how he faced that time in his life', we are doing wikipedia, and our picture of the subject injustice. Is he here, is he you, is he ashamed, should he be proud? I mean no offense when I say this but I do state it with conviction, I don't beleive it matters regarding the immediate question. I got to know him for the negative things, I don't think that matters to the immediate question either. I do beleive there is a picture of controversy surrounding the man however. To paraphrase (but not to mock) Derek Smart, it is hiding in plain sight. 68.9.109.99 00:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC) passerby

Hey everyone. :) Supreme_Cmdr, though I agree that the article mentioned is about Derek Smart, the article about Derek Smart, as you said, mentions the flame war. However I consider it important that in doing so, it mentions Derek Smart's involvement in the flame war. This is, what some might consider to be, a highly reputable publication. You made argument here that if someone captured Derek Smart in an argument it should not be added. I would disagree in this instance, on grounds that your example would be one argument, whereas there are both notable and verifiable mentions of Derek Smart's behavior, if I'm interpreting what I read about those terms correctly. What comes to my mind is that you seem to think that the primary focus of verifiable material must be specifically about flame wars. However in a wiki about a person who is involved in such activities, an article about him, that mentions those activities, seems to be acceptable. May I also make a blanket statement, intended to be a neutral one in this discussion, and that is this: There seems to be some polarizing here. The inherent atmosphere of wikipedia, as I have seen, may slow this polarizing process when compared to other venues. But to those that might possibly be starting to view people of differing opinion as working against good faith, may I say that even if they are working against wikipedian ideals, you might not be able to help the situation by trying to 'force' them to accept an issue they will not. I truly beleive that it can only help those looking to create a war of attrition, as it might allow them upset and exhaust those who disagree until they move on. Once you make them your enemy, all you have to do is care more about winning than the other person, neutrality becomes a side issue at best, a casualty of war at worst. I do not mean to insult those here. I understand that am quite likely the least qualified to speak here about wikipedia policy. But it seems to me that assuming good faith and civility can do more than protect other wikipedians from undue harm by us, it can protect us from getting clouded in issues that cannot improve the article or the wikipedia process. If someone keeps trying to goad you into a fight, and you remain civil, it is clear who is trying to discuss and who is looking for a fight. If we come at this with a 'you want a war, you got a war' mentality, then it may not matter who 'shot first', as neutrality toward the article can be damaged and we can lose good editors as they move on to other articles. If only one side is consistently firing shots off, and that's all they do rather than addressing any open issues, then that is all the statement you are likely to get, but also all the statement you really need to understand their mindset. To those who may be upset or getting upset now, may I say this article, perhaps more than most, shows a need for neutral editors, every editor we lose due to emotion could be an editor lost for all the wrong reasons. 68.9.109.99 21:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC) passerby

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Proposed findings of fact

Article has been edited by disruptive single-purpose accounts

1) Derek Smart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been edited in a disruptive fashion by several single-purpose accounts, including among others Mael-Num (talk · contribs), WarHawk (talk · contribs), WarHawkSP (talk · contribs), and Supreme_Cmdr (talk · contribs). Minor edits of a constructive nature have also been made by Uncle uncle uncle (talk · contribs). The nature of the edits suggest that at least some of these accounts are operated by editors affiliated with or highly sympathetic to the subject of the article.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Modified in light of comments. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I concur with this finding, with two exceptions: I reiterate my assertion that Mael-Num is not "affiliated with or highly sympathetic to the subject of the article". Neither do I think User:Uncle uncle uncle is affiliated. - (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 20:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hence "at least some". -- Steel 22:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe that I have made any edits in a disruptive fashion. My edits have been simple grammatical/spelling, semantic (earnings vs revenue), or date (released September vs released October vs released November), or tag removal after cleanup. These edits were nondisruptive and noncontroversial. I would like to be removed from the list of disruptive editors above. Uncle uncle uncle 18:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur with this, with the exception that as the nominator of the original RfAr, I did not name Uncle uncle uncle, and have not noticed him editing the page in the time period that I cited in the request. ⇒ SWATJester 09:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Article raises concerns about quality

2) The Derek Smart article, though well sourced, nonetheless raises general concerns regarding article quality, reliability of sources, and neutrality.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I agree in part. However, most of the sources are reliable and neutral. The only ones I feel raise concerns are the werewolves link (neutrality), and the UseNET posts (reliability). ⇒ SWATJester 09:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope the Committee can offer a more definitive decision w/regard to the Werewolves link. That is, can articles about living persons include links to external sites that feature commentary extremely critical of the subject, or to be more precise websites solely devoted to criticism of the subject? A decision on this matter would be helpful as it would have ramifications for other articles at Misplaced Pages. For instance, the article on Uwe Boll features as an external link www.bollbashers.com. The article on Jerry Falwell features a link to ihatepatrobertson.com. --Beaker342 00:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

and John_Gray_(U.S._author) features a link to The Rebuttal From Uranus Bill Huffman 03:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

You would hope that because it would further fuel your sick obsession with Derek Smart. Its not enough that you have been banned from every single forum that he posts at because you go there, but you've now found Wiki to be another source to channel your hate and stalking activities on him. Especially since you think I'm him. The examples you give are completely different to your libelous website. Your site would open Wiki to a lawsuit and if your link were allowed, they know that all it would take is one single email from Smart to the Wiki owners and the link would be gone. Only a complete fool or someone who shares your hatred and obsession for this person, would regard your site as anything other than a primarily libelous, fraudulent and POV website. It is far easier to sue Wiki, a corporate entity, than it is to sue an inconsequential individual like you. So it is highly unlikely that the ArbCom would be stupid enough to allow the link to your site in that Wiki. Supreme_Cmdr 21:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

That's very close to beng a legal threat, claiming libel. I'd highly advise you to rescind this statement. ⇒ SWATJester 18:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

No evidence of legal threats

3) In spite of concerns raised in statements on the original request for arbitration, the committee finds no legal threats have been made by any of the parties.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Updated. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Does the committee then interpret incorrect, or even abusive citings of BLP as not being a legal threat? e.g. if a user makes an edit, and I remove without discussion and say only, this is not acceptable per WP:BLP, and upon questioning by the party, cite the WP:BLP protection from defamatory statements, is that not a legal threat (it's a perfectly clear implication that I just said that the edit you made was defamatory, otherwise it would not fall under the BLP jurisdiction). ⇒ SWATJester 09:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

While I cannot speak for the committee as a whole, it is my own view that the legal threats we proscribe are exactly that: overt statements or tacit implications that an editor will be sued in a court of law. There is nothing wrong with a reasoned discussion regarding whether or not a portion of an article is possibly libellous. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 15:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I understand that, I am referring to non-reasoned discussion, especially by editors who do not understand the concept of libel or fair comment. Perhaps my example was not good enough, basically what I'm saying is that in the Derek Smart article, the accusations of defamation violations of BLP were decidedly not made in good faith, and are tantamount to legal threats. Though nobody said "I'm going to sue", what they did say is "Anything negative is libel", which carries with it the (false) implication that it would be actionable in court. At the very least this is extremely disruptive, at the most it is a legal threat. ⇒ SWATJester 16:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I request that the findings here be reconsidered based on the Supreme_Cmdr post above. Thank you, Bill Huffman 21:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur, as per the above proposed finding, it is very close to constituting a claim of libel and a threat to sue. ⇒ SWATJester 18:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I've just added some diffs to the evidence page pertaining to this. Just let me know if more documentation is required. Ehheh 20:29, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the "personal attacks" finding since it was not part of the original request. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Supreme Cmdr incivil

4) Supreme Cmdr (talk · contribs) often resorts to personal attacks (a notorious Smart stalker like you) and disregards Misplaced Pages's civility policy ().

Comment by Arbitrators:

I placed a related finding on the proposed decision page. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. -- Steel 20:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

My comment was not a personal attack. It is a fact. A fact that has been echoed all over the net, including Usenet, forums, popular sites (e.g. this article) etc. I was simply astonished to find that this Bill Huffman person was now an editor on the Derek Smart Wiki page and thus pointed out his reputation. This guy has stalked Smart online and offline. This is not conjecture or libel, it is a fact. The end result was a kid (aka LouisJM) instigated by Huffman got involved with the cops, had a restraining order filed against, Smart moved homes etc. My comment about Bill Huffman is no more or less severe that that which he has levied against me. Apart from that, since he showed up, these are his contributions to Wiki. The majority of his posts are based on Derek Smart. Thats his obsession. The attempt at posting on other similar articles is just a false one in order to not be accused of violating WP:SPA; unlike Usenet and forums where no such rule exists. And if my comment was a personal attack, then he too has levied a personal attack against myself and others because accusing someone of being WP:SPA without proof etc also violates WP:CIVIL. There many instances where has accused me of being and vice versa. He has even accused myself and others of being Derek Smart himself.Supreme_Cmdr 21:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Supreme_Cmdr's above paragraph should be archived on Wikimedia as potentially the epitome of the violation of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL? Although it is probably technically a violation of Misplaced Pages policy to not delete it, I believe that the rich irony of where Supreme_Cmdr decided to post it makes it far too enjoyable for anyone (except perhaps Supreme_Cmdr) to even consider deleting it. BTW Mr. Smart, I really don't hate you. I do dislike claims to bogus academic credentials. I admit that I find your self-destructive behavior and creative attempts at manipulationing reality to be very amusing but I really don't hate you. Take care, Bill Huffman 23:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Watch out Bill Huffman, that's tantamount to your own WP:CIVIL violation. ⇒ SWATJester 18:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the warning. I would like to note though that Supreme_Cmdr's false accusations against me are hard to ignore completely. I have never stalked the man. I knew about Mr. Smart's antics here many months ago yet I didn't post anything earlier and I've never attempted to edit the Derek Smart article, I've only had a Misplaced Pages account for a couple months, or so yet he makes the ridiculous claim that I hate him that I'm stalking him and trying to destroy his wonderful reputation. It is very hard for me to ignore vicious lies that are being said about me. I suspect that failing would be true for most people. Although I sincerely do thank you for the reminder and will try harder in the future. Bill Huffman 19:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Supreme Cmdr does not appear to have a clear understanding of the law as it pertains to libel, and in my opinion she has an enthusiasm for the subject matter which sometimes clouds her judgment, but I don't think that on the whole she is being any less civil than the people complaining about her, particularly Bill Huffmann. Bill Huffmann (if this is, in fact, the same Bill Huffmann, which is unproven), on the other hand, has a long and apparently well-documented 1 history of what can only be called "stalking" Derek Smart. I think a certain amount of incivility in response to such a person is, if lamentable, at least understandable. I am not condoning any excesses by Supreme Cmdr: I am simply saying that Supreme Cmdr is certainly not the only person to have stepped over that line. -- BBlackmoor • 2006-12-28 20:03Z

Sir, I believe that stalking is a crime and I find it highly insulting and disturbing that Supreme_Cmdr's statements seem to have convinced you that I've committed a crime. Please point at some real evidence that I have ever stalked Mr. Smart. All you pointed at is the fabrications perpetrated by Supreme_Cmdr. More relevantly please point at Misplaced Pages text that demonstrates that I've violated WP:CIVIL worse than Supreme_Cmdr. Thank you, Bill Huffman 17:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Real life stalking is a crime and the laws of online stalking are similar. When you spend eleven years following someone around and to places (forums) where you were never at prior to knowing about that person, it is called stalking. There is a clear pattern of this behaviour and much has already been written about you in various forums, blogs and elsewhere that you are a Derek Smart stalker. If you don't like it, stop doing it. Since you can no longer post at places where he goes, you have now found his Wiki to do the same darn thing you did on Usenet and in those forums where you have been banned and/or not tolerated. How many times have you not been banned from following him around the Net?

A quick visit to Google to look up online stalking quickly reveals that your pattern of following Derek Smart around the Net fits the bill of being a stalker. Further, that kid (louisJM) said in a police report (which I'm sure is probably public record) that you instigated him to follow Derek Smart around his neighborhood. Of course once the cops were involved, he admitted that he made up the whole thing about a chance encounter. That alone, after the cops went to his house, had Derek Smart move his family out of that address. Why would someone need to move after realizing that not only had he run into an online detractor in real life, but also by a kid known to be racist, a potent liar who talked about owning guns etc? If Smart didn't see that as a real threat, why were the police involved, a restraining order filed, Smart relocate etc? Any fool with access to Google can search the Usenet groups and see all this information and much more more on there. And you're worried about being called a stalker? Gimme a break.

This is all well documented. Yet, you want your new Wiki friends to see you as someone other than the habitual stalker of Derek Smart.

Even your own supporters at one one point or another, turned against you. Here is one such example of how you just post things and expect people to accept it as fact.

Supreme_Cmdr 18:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Article ban unenforced

5) The article ban on Supreme Cmdr (talk · contribs) proved ineffective. Concerns about whether there was enough consensus for it were raised, and it is not being enforced.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't think this finding accomplishes anything useful. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It was intended to confirm that the community has failed to deal with this situation on its own. Of course, that may already be obvious considering the existence of an ArbCom case. -- Steel 11:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. -- Steel 20:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Agree with comments by Steel. My earlier comments, quoted accurately by Steel, were before I had read Misplaced Pages:Community sanction, which had been tagged historical. Also, WP:ADMIN, at that time, implied that Misplaced Pages:Community sanction was policy. I've since updated WP:ADMIN and tagged the Misplaced Pages:Community sanction/Log page as historical also. If Misplaced Pages:Community sanction was a policy, then I would suggest there probably would have been sufficient grounds. However, the confusion was that it apparently was being justified in terms of WP:BAN and this, in my reading of the policy, requires a higher level of consensus. Addhoc 23:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Limitation on reverts by single-purpose accounts

1) For a period of six months, no single-purpose account may revert any edit made to the Derek Smart article. Any single-purpose account which performs such a revert may be kindly informed of this restriction and given the opportunity either to lay out their concerns on the article's discussion page or to e-mail the volunteers who deal with requests from article subjects. Any editor so informed who continues to revert the article may be blocked at the discretion of any administrator.

Editors are encouraged to use judgment and discretion in enforcement of this remedy, rather than implementing it in a mechanical fashion. The committee would prefer that Wikipedians who have already had significant involvement in the development of the article leave enforcement of this remedy to their peers.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I was going to propose a similar remedy. Something like this will be necessary to keep disruption to a minimum. -- Steel 22:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur, with a modification: Every time he releases a new game this will become a battleground again. Can we institute a clause saying "at the discretion of the ArbCom, this period may be reinstituted on the article at any time for a period of 1 month, following a request from ..." (I'm not sure whether to fill ... in with "any administrator", or "Any editor") ⇒ SWATJester 09:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I have an idea as an extension to this one. Having not been through ArbCom before, I don't know whether I just propose it or what. Supreme_Cmdr and WarhawkSP have shown that they are disruptive SPA's, but I don't know that banning the accounts will have any effect at all. How about if, as an extension to the proposal above, we make it a matter of consequence that if an SPA is being disruptive to the article, they can easily be banned, without due process, from editing the article, but not the talk page of the article. That would allow Supreme Cmdr, or any new SPA's that come along, to continue to contribute in a moderated way, through the talk page, so that impartial editors can incorporate and evaluate their feedback.--Jeff 03:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

An advantage of Jeff's suggestion is that it bypasses the gray area of what constitutes a revert. Bill Huffman 13:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Referred for cleanup

2) The article is urgently referred to the Misplaced Pages editing community at large for cleanup, evaluation of sources, and adherence to NPOV. This request should be publicized on such noticeboards, mailing lists, and IRC channels as are necessary until the article receives due attention.

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proposed. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 19:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

I would support an additional sentence along the lines of "users who have been involved in editing the Derek Smart article should be willing to accept and follow the consensus of the wider community", in the event that the wider community's decision on a couple of issues (the reliability of the warewolves site and whether it's acceptable to piece together Usenet forum posts and use them as references) goes against what some users have been edit warring with Supreme Cmdr & co over (which in my opinion is a distinct possibility). -- Steel 22:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur with Steel359, it should be up to the community to decide the admissability of the site and especially the usenet posts, as the posts will form a precedent for similar events. ⇒ SWATJester 10:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I would hope that we could get it right without such specific language. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

This is a cop-out. As stated in principle 3 and 5, we need to be well sourced and respectful of BLP. However, as stated in principle 4, there is no way to do so with consensus. Whoever that comes in and cleans it up will be left with unfortunate decisions that will be disagreed with. This course of action will be inviting future edit wars. Another possibility, even worse in my opinion, is that the 10% of the internet that are supporters of Mr. Smart will be overwhelmed, and BLP will be erroded. -12.22.58.56 00:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Supreme Cmdr banned for one year

3) Supreme Cmdr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who has a long history of disruptive editing and personal attacks on Derek Smart, is banned for one year.

Comment by Arbitrators:

It's a throwaway account so there is little point banning it. One year is too long. I would support a 14 day ban due to personal attacks. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. -- Steel 22:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe he has already been banned from the article. Is this concurrent or sequential, or is this a ban from the entire project? ⇒ SWATJester 10:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, this is a ban from the entire site. That article ban never really got off the ground. It might be worth gathering together some information for the evidence page and propose a finding of fact about it. I'll get on it shortly. -- Steel 16:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh ok, concur. ⇒ SWATJester 01:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Supreme Cmdr has already been blocked 8 times for a total of 41 days, and continued to edit war and attack other editors, so there is little reason to suspect that a 14 day ban would convince him to cool down. I agree that banning a single account would do little to remedy the problem, since there are so many sockpuppets floating around. The remedy must deal with the SPAs, not just Supreme Cmdr. --Beaker342 23:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Ban me for what? That is exactly what they have been doing. All my bans have been as a result of 3RR traps in my attempt at removing pov pushing material. Anyone reading my block log can see that quite clearly. And if the admins had actually looked at the material instead of blocking me, I wouldn't have been blocked at all because at the end of the day, none of the materials were allowed to stand. Why? Because I was right and the whole 3RR issue just demonstrates yet another flaw in the Wiki rules of editing. Everyone knows that any group of people acting in concern, can get someone blocked and/or banned. You just have to know how to work the system. And since I stand alone (except maybe for WarhawkSP and a few remaining editors) in my quest, it is easier to point to a block log as proof that I am disruptive, when in fact I clearly am not. Is it surprising then that the same people calling for my ban and block are the same people I am in dispute with over their pov pushing activities on the Wiki page? Supreme_Cmdr 21:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Supreme_Cmdr is a WP:SPA account. Banning for a year would only encourage new sockpuppet accounts. The Supreme_Cmdr account seems to be his favorite account. I suggest that the WarHawk accounts be permanently banned but let him use the Supreme_Cmdr account to try an minimize his disruptive sockpuppet activity. Bill Huffman 20:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

I disagree with a 14-day ban for the same reasons that Beaker342 has stated. As his block log indicates , he has been blocked several times, sometimes within days after the previous one has expired. In addition, the most recent block lasted 14 days, the same length that is being suggested by The Uninvited. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that another 14-day ban would be an effective solution. If anything, I think that if Supreme Cmdr sees that he can get through the final step in Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution process with a penalty that is no more severe than what he has experienced before, it will only encourage him to continue, or even step up, the incivil behavior which has been cited already by multiple other users. Cardinal2 17:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

WarHawkSP blocked indefinitely

4) Per #Transparency in editing, WarHawkSP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) along with his previous account WarHawk (talk · contribs), whose general conduct and editing habits mirror those of Supreme Cmdr (talk · contribs), is to be treated as an abusive sockpuppet and blocked indefinitely.

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't believe that this is necessary or useful in light of the proscription on reverts by single-purpose accounts. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's both useful and necessary since the account is being used to evade blocks, launch personal attacks and give the impression that Supreme Cmdr has more support than he actually does. Your current limitation on reverts proposal does nothing to end such activities on the talk page. -- Steel 10:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

They already did a check and showed that WarHawkSP and I are two different editors. They just want to get rid of both of us in one fell swoop so that they can remain unopposed in their pov pushing editing of the Wiki. Supreme_Cmdr 21:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect. The IP check did not show that, the IP check showed that it is inconclusive as to whether or not you are the same editor, but it did not prove either your "guilt or innocense"⇒ SWATJester 18:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by parties:

Proposed. -- Steel 22:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. ⇒ SWATJester 10:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 19:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur Bill Huffman 19:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Supreme Cmdr blocked indefinitely

5) Per #Transparency in editing, Supreme Cmdr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is to be treated as an abusive sockpuppet and blocked indefinitely. Further, Supreme Cmdr has violated a community ban on editing the article and harassed other editors on the article and its talk page.

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Comment by parties:

Proposed ⇒ SWATJester 10:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 19:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet of whom? Supreme Cmdr is the main account, WarHawk is the sock. -- Steel 20:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

They're all socks of each other. Since they're all abusive, if one is indefinitely blocked, all need to be indefinitely blocked. ⇒ SWATJester 01:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

An indefblock on a sock doesn't automatically mean an indefblock on the puppetmaster. Usually the main account is blocked for some finite amount of time. -- Steel 20:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that but repeated personal attacks are blockworthy regardless of whether it's a sock or a main account. Each one of the socks has done something worthy of a block, so each should be blocked. ⇒ SWATJester 00:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that permanently blocking the Supreme_Cmdr will do nothing but encourage more sockpuppets. I believe that the sockpuppet behavior itself is very disruptive. Supreme_Cmdr is obviously his favorite account so I suggest that we leave this one and delete (block indefinitely?) WarHawk/WarHawkSP. Bill Huffman 12:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment by others:

Not sure about the confident statement that he is definitely a sock puppet. My interpretation of the check user was that he was the original account and WarHawk was a meat puppet. Also, its factually incorrect to say that he violated a community ban, it was a Misplaced Pages:Community sanction of very dubious legitimacy. Addhoc 22:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Dubious legitimacy? It was unopposed completely, and no less than 3 completely uninvolved admins have supported both the ban and the block (Inshannee, pgk, and Redvers). ⇒ SWATJester 23:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course it was unopposed. It was sanctioned by the same people who are tainting the Wiki and engaging in 3RR traps. And yes, Addhoc is not the only person who noted that the sanction was dubious. It is the same dubiousness that you and your ilk are trying to use to get me banned because that is the only way you are going to stand unopposed. Thats the nature of Wiki. Supreme_Cmdr 02:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

You have brought up this concept of a "3RR trap" before. Can you explain how anyone other than yourself is responsible for you violating WP:3RR? No one forced your hand; you always had the choice to act within the limitations of policy, of which you were well aware. However, on multiple occasions, you deliberately disrespected Misplaced Pages community rules, knowing full well what you were doing. And then you have the gall to try to pass it off as if you were "trapped." - (Nuggetboy) (talk) (contribs) 02:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Swatjester, there's possibly some confusion; I concur with the numbers you mention. For precisely this reason, it wasn't a legitimate community ban. Addhoc 13:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Supreme Cmdr

1) For legal threats and harassment of other editors, Supreme Cmdr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned for six months.

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Comment by others:

Proposed. See , , that were made only today. Telling someone that they'll have them arrested is harrassment - "Do not stop other editors from enjoying Misplaced Pages by making threats", and it's a legal threat as well. Remember, bans run concurrently. Daniel.Bryant 23:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Neither of those examples show Supreme Cmdr making a threat against anyone, legal or otherwise. Nor does saying "when you post defamatory statements, you are at risk for being sued by the person you have defamed" (which is the closest Supreme Cmdr has come, as far as I know, to making a legal threat) constitute a threat. Telling someone who is poised to jump off a bridge that jumping off a bridge may result in a sudden stop is not a threat: at worst, it's a sarcastic observation on the manifest stupidity of human beings. Supreme Cmdr's "you are asking to get sued" comment might be considered "uncivil", and it definitely shows that she is not a lawyer, but it is most emphatically not a threat. -- BBlackmoor • 2007-01-12 00:23Z

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