Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:42, 12 January 2007

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: ~~~~), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 19:03, 23 December 2024 (UTC).

• Tim Smith (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

Tim Smith, a pro-intelligent design contributor who was involved in supporting censured pov-pushers Asmodeus and DrL in the recently concluded Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist, has been conducting a campaign promoting the intelligent design viewpoint on particular points at Uncommon Dissent and at International Society for Complexity, Information and Design. At Uncommon Dissent he has engaged in minor edit warring, misusing dispute tags, and attempting to expand the conflict by misrepresenting the situation at other venues.

Description

Against broad consensus from credible, long term contributors knowledgeable on the topic of ID, Tim Smith has been conducting a low-grade edit war and misusing WP processes to use the intelligent design movement's (an extreme minority POV within the realm of science) definition of a specific term ("Darwinism") to the exclusion of the majority's (the scientific community's) use of the term. He has repeatedly and wilfully ignored for over two months all policy (WP:NPOV#Undue_weight / WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience / WP:NPOVFAQ#Giving_.22equal_validity.22), reason, and evidence (sources and cites) that he is either mistaken or favoring (giving undue weight to) a minority POV. And a minority POV which has an established history (as determined in the Dover trial ruling) of misusing terms to achieve their goals.

Despite being shown he is promoting a particular viewpoint unduly, he has resorted to (mis)using dispute tags and misrepresenting the situation at Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts in order to drum up support to gain the upper hand in the content dispute.

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

1. 10:19, 26 December Misrepresenting the situation, misuse of process to expand the conflict
2. 13:33, 22 December Continued misuse of dispute tag
3. 22:51, 21 December Again favoring the spin of the ID movement over the majority view
4. 22:01, 19 December Restoring dispute tag despite consensus on talk (including 3 admins) that the tag was being misused
5. 14:56, 18 December Reverting again to the minority ID community's spin
6. 00:30, 18 December Reverting again
7. 21:34, 10 December Favoring minority view unduly
8. 21:14, 28 November Misusing "fact" tags to favor ID's use of the term over that of the scientific community's
9. 09:51, 28 November Reverting again to restore pro-ID spin
10. 09:15, 28 November Again misusing "fact" tags to favor ID's use of the term over that of the scientific community's, now at the ISCID article
11. 17:09, 27 November Again reverting to restore ID spin
12. 18:11, 26 November Reverting again
13. 23:22, 24 November 1st insertion of pro-ID definitions
14. A similar pattern occurred at International Society for Complexity, Information and Design from August 10 through November 28:

Applicable policies and guidelines

{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

1. WP:NPOV#Undue_weight
2. WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience
3. WP:NPOVFAQ#Giving_.22equal_validity.22
4. WP:NOT
5. WP:CON

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

1. 00:06, 29 November Guettarda trying to set the policies and facts straight
2. 00:32, 29 November FeloniousMonk commenting on the validity of Tim Smith's objections and editing style
3. 01:20, 29 November FeloniousMonk providing sources
4. 01:22, 20 December FeloniousMonk on the use of the dispute tag
5. 06:47, 20 December Guettarda on the use of the dispute tag
6. 07:18, 20 December Arthur Rubin on the use of the dispute tag

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. FeloniousMonk 19:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Guettarda 21:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
3. ScienceApologist 16:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. •Jim62sch• 20:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

Overview

My response is in four parts: a summary of the dispute at ISCID, an account of the dispute at Uncommon Dissent, comments on the accusations in the "Statement of the dispute" above, and a suggestion for how to resolve the conflict.

Summary of the dispute at ISCID

In my first edit to ISCID, made August 10, I fixed typos, added more fellows and chat guests, reworded criticism per the cited sources, requested citations for several claims, and described ISCID's justification for its review policy. Six minutes later, that edit was reverted wholesale by FeloniousMonk. (After an hour, he restored some of the changes.) Other users joined in, and amidst two more wholesale reverts (), incivility and failure to assume good faith, a personal attack, and some discussion, we hammered out a compromise, and the dispute subsided.

A few months later, FeloniousMonk claimed that "most of ISCID's fellows serve as fellows at the DI as well". In fact, none serve as fellows of the DI proper, and most do not serve as fellows of the DI's CSC either. After his assertion was removed, he claimed that "the most notable" ISCID fellows serve as DI fellows, an ambiguous and misleading statement, since Alvin Plantinga and Frank Tipler are notable ISCID fellows who are not DI/CSC fellows. I added wording to convey the actual proportion of joint fellows, but he reverted to "the most notable". Eventually he settled on a strictly factual version.

Finally, in accordance with WP:V, I requested a source for the claim that the society promotes intelligent design. According to FeloniousMonk, this request was somehow a misuse of the {{fact}} tag.

Account of the dispute at Uncommon Dissent

As background, the 2004 book Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing is a collection of essays from fifteen contributors, edited by William Dembski. "Darwinism" is an ambiguous term: respected evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr wrote that "The term 'Darwinism', ... has numerous meanings depending on who has used the term and at what period", and according to our article, it can refer to evolution by natural selection, to evolution more broadly, or even to other ideas not directly associated with the work of Darwin. Consequently, we need to say what the contributors mean by it.

In my first edit to the article, on November 25, I quoted the introduction's characterization of Darwinism (taking care to explicitly attribute the characterization to the book), requested citation for a claim, corrected the figure of thirteen contributors to fifteen, and added relevant external links. Eleven hours later, that edit was reverted without explanation by Jim62sch. The quote from the book, the citation request, and the external links were removed, and the figure of fifteen contributors was returned to the erroneous value of thirteen. I requested that reverts be explained and asked for feedback on my changes, but Jim62sch never replied, vanishing from the article and its talk page. (I see he has now popped up here to endorse FeloniousMonk's "Statement of the dispute".)

Noting on the talk page the ambiguity of "Darwinism" and quoting the introduction's characterization of it, I resubmitted my edit, adding a general description of the term using wording from the first sentence of Darwinism. Five minutes later, Guettarda replaced that wording, and four minutes after that, JBKramer made the unsourced claim that the fifteen contributors use "Darwinism" to mean "the theory of evolution". Neither of them explained their edits on the talk page, so I posted there, noting that the introduction does not use "Darwinism" to mean evolution generally, but what it calls "Darwinian evolution", and that additionally, the fifteen contributors might not all use "Darwinism" in the same sense.

FeloniousMonk then removed my citation request for the claim that "the book rejects the broad acceptance of evolution within the scientific community" with the summary "rm misused "fact" tag. You've got to be kidding me, read the book's title". He offered no further explanation, so I noted that the title does not establish the claim; it says "Darwinism", not "evolution", and "find...unconvincing", not "reject". The title indicates only that each contributor finds unpersuasive one or more aspects of what that contributor terms "Darwinism". I emphasized the need for citations, and called for discussion rather than dismissal of citation requests and reversion to unsourced claims.

My next edit, re-requesting the citation and restoring the general description from Darwinism, was reverted two minutes later by ScienceApologist, who proceeded, like Jim62sch before him, to vanish from the article and its talk page. (He too has now popped up to endorse FeloniousMonk's summary, even listing himself as having "tried and failed to resolve the dispute". His sole contribution was a revert.)

On the talk page, I explained that in addition to giving a general description of "Darwinism" and quoting the introduction's characterization, I was open to quoting notable outside commentary on what the book means. What is not acceptable, I said, is for editors to repeatedly insert unsourced claims about what they think the book means, to repeatedly remove requests from other editors to supply sources for their claims, and to do so without engaging in talk-page discussion, sometimes reverting without any explanation at all.

I next tried leaving untouched the claim that the contributors use "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution, simply adding the general description from Darwinism and requesting sources for the claims under dispute. The edit was soon reverted and the citation requests removed, this time with a summary beginning "rv per talk" by Guettarda, who had never edited the talk page, where I had been calling for discussion. I now posted a summary of WP:V, asked that the other editors abide by it, and again requested citations.

Guettarda reacted incivilly, accusing me of insisting that the book "focuses soley on outdated ideas in biology", and FeloniousMonk seconded with further incivility and a failure to assume good faith. In fact, as had been repeatedly noted on the talk page, I intended the quote from our article on Darwinism ("a term for the underlying theory in those ideas of Charles Darwin concerning evolution and natural selection") as a general description of the term. The quote does not say just "Darwin's ideas", but "the underlying theory in those ideas", and I had already acknowledged that the term is ambiguous, and according to our article, can refer to evolution by natural selection, to evolution more broadly, and even to other ideas not directly associated with the work of Darwin.

Responding, I quoted several passages from the book, giving examples of the contributors' sometimes-nuanced views on evolution, as well as their use of "Darwinism". FeloniousMonk had finally posted critical sources for "Darwinism", so I started a new section, covering (1) the term's general meaning, (2) what critics say the contributors mean, and (3) what the contributors say they mean. The next day, FeloniousMonk reverted my edit wholesale, claiming undue weight, with no talk-page follow-up. I observed that on a page specifically devoted to the book Uncommon Dissent, WP:Undue weight allows us to spell out in great detail what that book says, provided we do not represent it as the truth. I implored the other users to work constructively with me to improve the article.

No one responded, so I tried again. Guettarda reverted with the summary "not an improvement, fully of weasal words", and no talk-page elaboration. I tried to address his objections in my next edit, giving explicit attributions in the text, but two minutes later, FeloniousMonk reverted, again wholesale, again without talk-page explanation.

At this point, I added a dispute tag to the article, giving my objections on the talk page, where I had been the only participant for three weeks. Other users spoke up at last, but before I could reply, FeloniousMonk removed the tag, thirteen hours after I had posted it.

I then explained in more detail my objections, and pointed FeloniousMonk, who had called the dispute tag "a ploy to gain the upper hand" and who now, incredibly, was telling me to "go find a source" for his claim, to WP:V, which says that "Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor" and that "The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it".

Finally, I suggested that we stick closely to the sources, simply quoting them and letting readers draw their own conclusions. My attempt to do so, however, was reverted by FeloniousMonk. I tried again to add dispute tags, but FeloniousMonk removed them. It was then that I posted a Wikiquette alert, and following that, FeloniousMonk started this RfC.

Comments on the accusations

"minor edit warring": Throughout this dispute, I've tried to address the objections raised, and have taken care to explain my edits on the talk page, repeatedly calling for discussion and constructive engagement. In contrast, other disputants revert mechanically ( ), sometimes within minutes, often with brusque edit summaries and no talk-page elaboration, even removing citation requests and uncontroversial corrections in the process.

"misusing dispute tags": WP:V says very clearly that (1) articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, (2) editors adding new material should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor, and (3) the obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. My use of {{fact}} tags is in accordance with this policy, and the removal of those tags and reversion to unsourced claims by the other disputants is in contravention of it. Faced with repeated reverts, I added neutrality and factuality tags pending resolution of the dispute. But these tags too were removed ( ).

"attempting to expand the conflict by misrepresenting the situation at other venues": In fact, I was merely following dispute resolution by seeking outside involvement; Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts is listed at WP:DR as an option for doing so. The alert I posted is factually accurate and supportable by diffs. Granted, it reflects my own concerns, but that's why I signed my name to it, and directed users to the talk page for more information.

"misusing WP processes to use the intelligent design movement's (an extreme minority POV within the realm of science) definition of a specific term ("Darwinism") to the exclusion of the majority's (the scientific community's) use of the term": There are two issues here: (1) what "Darwinism" means generally, and (2) how the book's contributors use it. Regarding (1), I've supported the inclusion of a general description of the term as providing valuable context, and in fact have repeatedly added to the article wording from the first two sentences of Darwinism to serve that role. It is actually other users who have removed that wording ( ). Regarding (2), I've stated that I'm open to quoting notable outside commentary on what the contributors mean. But it must be sourced and presented neutrally.

"repeatedly and wilfully ignored for over two months all policy (WP:NPOV#Undue_weight / WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience / WP:NPOVFAQ#Giving_.22equal_validity.22), reason, and evidence (sources and cites) that he is either mistaken or favoring (giving undue weight to) a minority POV": WP:Undue weight contains the following qualification:

None of this is to say that tiny-minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can give them on pages specifically devoted to them. Misplaced Pages is not paper. But even on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it should not be represented as the truth.

On a page specifically devoted to the book Uncommon Dissent, we can spell out in great detail what that book says, provided we do not represent it as the truth. As I've said, I'm open to quoting notable outside commentary, including that of critics. Per WP:V, however, we need sources for such commentary, and per WP:NPOV, we must present that commentary rather than asserting it as fact:

The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions.

Nothing in the Pseudoscience or Giving "equal validity" sections of the NPOV FAQ overrules this basic requirement of WP:NPOV. Contrary to it, the other disputants have edited the article to assert (often-unsourced) critical views as the correct ones, and have repeatedly reverted efforts to attribute those views to those who hold them. Their resistance to presenting these views, rather than asserting them, is one of the biggest obstacles to resolving this dispute.

Suggestion for a resolution

In disputed matters, it helps to stick closely to the sources, simply identifying them, quoting what they say, and letting readers draw their own conclusions. For example, instead of writing:

The fifteen contributors use "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution. The book rejects the broad acceptance of evolution within the scientific community.

and citing as support letters written before the book was published which say nothing about the book, we can identify the letters and their authors explicitly, and quote what they say:

Evolution has broad acceptance within the scientific community. In a letter written in 2000, philosophy professor and intelligent-design critic Barbara Forrest states that "Johnson, Demsbki, and their associates have assumed the task of destroying 'Darwinism'", which, she says, they use as a synonym for evolution. Biologist Paul R. Gross writes in a 2003 letter to Commentary magazine of David Berlinksi's "latest Commentary essay on 'Darwinism'—as it is often called by those who do not know much evolutionary biology".

With this approach, instead of drawing inferences from the sources, we tell readers what the sources say and let them draw their own inferences. My hope is that if the other editors follow this method, engage constructively, and avoid breaches of Wikiquette, we can bring the article into compliance with WP:V and WP:NPOV, and end this dispute.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Tim Smith 19:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Response to the suggestion for a resolution

The notion that "in disputed matters it helps to stick closely to the sources, simply identifying them, quoting what they say, and letting readers draw their own conclusions" on its face sounds perfectly acceptable and reasonable. But in cases of describing carefully organized disinformation campaigns, such as intelligent design (as the Dover trial ruling noted it), "stick closely to the sources" often results in promoting one side's distorted representation of the actual state of affairs. That is the case here.

It is well documented with no shortage of sources that ID proponents intentionally use the catch-all, hot button phrase "Darwinism" to refer to evolution in general. It is an intentionally nebulous and amorphous cipher, meant to stir their readers rather than be informative and never used by scientific community in the same sense.

ID claims to be a scientific theory, but is viewed by the scientific community as unscientific pseudoscience The NPOV policy has a specific clause for for dealing with pseudoscience, WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience, which says "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." To follow that policy the article needs to be very specific in describing the terms Darwinism and evolution. Which the current passage clearly does: "Darwinism", which they use to refer to the theory of evolution. The book's introduction characterizes Darwinism by the central claim that "an unguided physical process can account for the emergence of all biological complexity and diversity. whereas Tim Smith's preferred version "Darwinism", characterized in the book's introduction by the central claim that "an unguided physical process can account for the emergence of all biological complexity and diversity", but which critics say they use synonymously with evolution without knowing much about evolutionary biology. creates a hierarchy of fact - the views of the ID proponents are "true" and "undisputed", whereas the view of the scientific community is "controversial", held by "critics" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that is both inaccurate and inappropriate, getting WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience exactly backward.

This issue is only going to be resolved by only by proper application of policy where the article reflects that the use of the term "Darwinism" by ID minority represents their particular viewpoint and is rejected by the majority: the scientific community. Repeatedly insisting otherwise on the talk page and doggedly reinserting a dispute tag is not going to make this issue go away.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. FeloniousMonk 19:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by User:Amarkov

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

I do see that User:Tim Smith has made some biased edits. However, adding dispute tags is not bias. If there is an unsourced assertion, then it may be tagged as needing citation. If that gives the impression of undue weight, good; that's what it's supposed to do. If something has no citation, it should be treated as suspect, and not be given equal validity with things that do. If you think that he didn't tag everything he should, giving the impression that the others were more valid, then tag those too. Don't claim that requesting citations is biased.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Amarkov _edits 23:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Mathmo 06:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment: There has been a problem since the invention of the {{fact}} tag that when certain editors don't get their way they go through and "fact-tag-bomb" the article to make a point. When the consensus of other editors is that a sentence/fact/POV is referenced, citations/references are already provided, etc. and singular editors don't like this consensus, that shouldn't give said singular editors the green light to go add fact tags to articles and ignore the consensus. --ScienceApologist 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Outside view by User:Tox

Using a dispute tag when there is a clear dispute going on is definitely not bias. And citation tags are frankly underused throughout all of Misplaced Pages. Any fact that can be labelled "citation needed" needs a citation.

In fact, a lot of the argument seems to revolve around Tim Smith's request for a citation for the statement "'Darwinism', which they use to refer to the theory of evolution." Such an assertion would obviously need sources, if it weren't so useless it needs to be deleted.

Obviously, in a general scientific context in which evolution is not being challenged, I know what it means, but that's entirely different from the context of the views being expressed in a book challenging it. Having seen numerous arguments and whatnot over creationism versus evolution, in such cases there are so many different nuances to what is meant by both "Darwinism" and "evolution" in that particular debate or book, et al, that this sentence is replacing one contextually ambiguous term with another.

While I have heard of Dembski and know he is an ID advocate, that is all I know about him. I have never read any of his work. Reading that sentence tells me nothing about the nuances of either his position or those of the other contributors. I receive no information on the content of the book, which is what the article is supposed to be about. Tim Smith, on the other hand, inserted a direct quote on what the book considers Darwinism to mean. I'm not confused into thinking that is the general meaning of Darwinism by his wording and am immediately informed about the book. Why was his edit here controversial? Why was it reverted?

For a controversial book on a controversial topic, I absolutely agree with Tim Smith's proposed solution, and what looks like his MO all along, to use quotes from the book that directly show what the contributors are saying, and then use quotes from critiques of it. In fact, when the accusers finally bothered to use sources for the statement discussed above, Tim Smith created a section doing just that. A true POV-pusher would have deleted them outright.

Indeed, Tim's own views on the subject are hardly clear from his edits or talk page entries, while the accusors' most certainly are. —Tox 11:55, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Wechselstrom 04:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Of course, per mine above. -Amarkov _edits 04:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.