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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

• This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
• We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.
• The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor.
• Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice.
• Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session.
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If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.

• This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
• For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.

We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

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I did not state my position in the submission -- I am for adding Star Control: Origins and Stardock (trademark owner) for the purpose of "navigational aid", since this is a navbox.

Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) appears disagree with their addition. His primary argument appears to be on the grounds that they are not the same series (diff developers & canon/lore). However, Stardock owns the trademark. Gameplay-wise Star Control: Origins is inspired by Star Control II. From my perspective, the remaining arguments by Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) are simple refusal of my positions using unrelated rules, straw maning my words, cherry-picking of examples/citations. --Voidvector (talk) 07:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm here. I documented the dispute with diffs and guidelines. I'd very much rather hear from anyone else now. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I was invited to discuss this by Voidvector. I am not sure if I should respond here or at the other talk page but I don't think we should add Stardock or another game. All the reliable sources agree that the games don't share anything except the name and some inspiration. The games are disconnected by 25 years and two unrelated companies. I don't know if Voidvector wants to include or ignore the "in universe" factors but they are also disconnected stories and settings. I followed the lawsuit and I think the confusion is that the settlement makes it sound like the original series will be renamed the "Ur-Quan Masters" franchise but we still call it "Star Control". Its been "Star Control" for 30 years. I don't agree with the bias that "the original series is basically dead" but you could say the original trilogy officially ended in 1996. Now journalists talk about SCO as a new series even if they hoped for a sequel or prequel. This is explained at the Star Control article with reliable sources and links to SCO. I agree that a list of Star Control related games would be too long and the article already mentions Stardock anyway. I see that Voidvector added SCO as a disambigation line in Star Control so that should settle it. Jorahm (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you clarify who is "Voidwalker"? I believe you are conflating our usernames. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

You're the one who tagged me and I did conflate it. Fixed. I fixed the quote too. Jorahm (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

There are a lot of misrepresentation here -- for example, I never actually said "the original series is dead". My actual words are "Until release of Ghosts of the Precursors (currently vaporware), the original series is basically dead." Above participates have both used this as a "straw man". (I am going to keep this reply brief, since volunteer has not joined.) In addition, if you were to follow the thread, I have already offered compromise by suggesting we should list them as "Related articles", while my counterpart(s) has not compromised at all. My primary goal is to simply provide "navigational aid" (i.e. MOS:LINK) so anything that achieves that goal between all these articles is palatable to me. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Big Lie (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Soibangla (talk · contribs)
• NedFausa (talk · contribs)
• KIENGIR (talk · contribs)
• Novem Linguae (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I added the sentence: "The expression later came to be associated with Donald Trump" to the lead, which I assert proportionately summarizes a corresponding section in the body. The sentence was reverted.

On Talk, three editors assert the sentence does not pass NPOV/due and undue weight. I maintain their stated rationales do not have a plausible basis in Misplaced Pages policy.

I want to emphasize that no effort is being made here to associate Trump with Hitler, but rather to show others have associated him with a concept that has not been previously described in the article in any post-war context, but is now being associated with Trump in a modern context.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Big_lie#Inclusion_of_Trump_in_lead

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I assert this is a case in which the consensus is incorrect and the sentence should be restored in the lead.

Summary of dispute by NedFausa

Summary of dispute by KIENGIR

The current political events causing a big overhead in the related articles, especially political shoapboaxing, from the moderate way to the insanity, and neutrality may easily be forgotten unfortunately, this is espcially visible for outsiders/uninvolved editors (the page is trolled by POV-pushers in a daily manner from both directions). Indeed yes, lead summarize body, not it does not mean we would include everything in the the lead. The Trump issue is a recent overloaded shoap at all aspects, taking any sides by new insertions may suggest being involved or abandon neutrality. Trump is surely not commensurable with those one in the lead mentioned, so I would avoid such trials.(KIENGIR (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2021 (UTC))

@Nightenbelle:,

I think you may close this issue, since besides the formal/procedural mistakes of it's opening, not even the nominator took it serious or participated in it actively, that is quite odd, and noone else will. Any volunteer's advices I noted and will mind them, the talk page discussions are ongoing anyway. Regards(KIENGIR (talk) 15:00, 3 February 2021 (UTC))

Summary of dispute by Novem Linguae

I'm not sure this is worth a lot of time and effort. There's a 3-1 consensus to not include this in the lead. There's some editors in the article that want to give more WP:WEIGHT to Donald Trump in the lead and/or in the Donald Trump section, but some of us disagree with this weight. It's a historical article, and giving Donald Trump a lot of weight seems to be a case of WP:RECENT. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:46, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Big Lie discussion

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not yet notified the other editors on their talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - There is a local consensus of 3-1 against the filing editor. The options for the filing editor, who is in the minority, are to try to discuss with the other editors to reach a compromise, or to obtain a larger consensus by Request for Comments. Either approach will be supported at this noticeboard after the other editors are notified. (That is, if they want an RFC, a volunteer will help draft the RFC neutrally. If they want discussion leading to compromise, a volunteer will mediate, but no promises are made.) Robert McClenon (talk) 03:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

** Robert McClenon, I do not see that user Talk page notification is required for topics in this “informal” forum, and I pinged the three editors on the article Talk page in a fully transparent manner such that any other interested editors could also participate. Perhaps consider striking your fallacious comment as it is potentially prejudicial against me. soibangla (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• • Volunteer Note - My statement is correct, because the editors were not notified on their talk pages. It is true that they were pinged, and for that reason this case will remain open, waiting for a volunteer to accept it, if another volunteer is willing to accept a case filed by an editor who has already insulted one volunteer. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

*** Robert McClenon, Yes, your statement that they were not notified on their Talk pages is correct, except that unlike in other matters in other forums, such notification is not required here, and so your mentioning of this potentially creates a false impression that I am not following the rules, which tends to cast a prejudicial pall on my filing. I now ask you more directly to strike it. soibangla (talk) 19:58, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

• • • • Volunteer NoteSoibangla You are incorrect- the rules of this board are clearly stated at the top: "Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: (Template deleted for space) Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice." So- I strognly suggest you stop arguing with the volunteers and notify the users and return to this board with an atitude that will encourage volunteers to be willing to mediate and also encourage the others involved to overturn the already existing consensus and discuss your desired improvements. I would also remind you that participation in this discussion is voluntary for all involved- the users you have a disagreement with, and the volunteers. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
        • I stand corrected. soibangla (talk) 23:00, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I think the words you are looking for is I’m sorry I was combative Robert, I’ll strike through my wrong comments like I tried to make you do when you politely asked me to follow protocol. Nightenbelle (talk) 02:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I came to this issue recently after looking for information about "the big lie" w.r.t. statements in the news. I do not believe one or two sentences in the lede constitute WP:RECENT or WP:UNDUE. UserTwoSix (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Volunteer Message

This is the next case in line for a volunteer to jump on- however, the only two volunteers currently active are myself and Robert McClenon. Since he has already recused himself- that leaves me. Are the users involved willing to have me mediate or would you rather either do an RFC or hold off until we get another volunteer. I will not take it personally if you would rather I not mediate. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Anocracy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Rkerver (talk · contribs)
• Gwennie-nyan (talk · contribs)
• Jared.h.wood (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I contributed the section "United States" and my contribution keeps being removed. Three short paragraphs, fully referenced. Talk has not lead to consensus.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Anocracy#United_States

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Review the content, the references. If a neutral third party finds it all OK, then post in the talk article.

Summary of dispute by Gwennie-nyan

Summary of dispute by Jared.h.wood

Summary of dispute by

Anocracy discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Park Yoo chun (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Bonadea (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have been editing and something has gone wrong. I read all your guidelines and learned what to do, I went to tearoom and asked questions. I understood I could edit the page. I contacted outside reps, agents and fans to get information for the article. I found in Personal life, 4 articles by non-viable source with statements that were made and cited by articles that didn't talk about the statement made. I removed them all. I am now told that I a COI, I have tried to resolve but am not given options or full explanation. I have been told I am making destructive edits. If you want to undo my work, you don't need to call my work destructive as I have followed your policies. We can't reach consensus because I am left with a giant warning banner on his site. It is a living human being and you are putting me at harms way because people I have aksed for articles know that I am 20footfish. they have my personal email address and name. I am exposed like this to threats and cyber bullying. I had not thought of that.. I need that banner gone because i am now terrified. 20footfish the editor COI serious. You have no idea how afraid I am now.. just change it back and take it off please. My dispute is for my safety and wellbeing.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

I have tried to ask the editor for help to get that off. I have asked for options. I don't know what to do now. I am pretty worried and upset. I want the banner off. you can change it all back. just take it off. I will get really horrible emails with that on there for 30 000 people to see.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

just help me please. I will never edit again. I was honestly researching every sentence and did a great job. I have them all saved on my system. I followed your WP:Source list and checked all articled for viability and only the viable ones stayed. Now I am COI because of wikicommons asking for license.

Summary of dispute by Bonadea

Park Yoo chun discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Uyghur genocide (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sarrotrkux (talk · contribs)
• Stonksboi (talk · contribs)
• PailSimon (talk · contribs)
• Horse Eye's Back (talk · contribs)
• My very best wishes (talk · contribs)
• TucanHolmes (talk · contribs)
• Mikehawk10 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The page "Uyghur genocide" includes an image of a random young girl and an old lady. Those images do not serve any informative or encyclopaedic function in the article, and apparently the only reason they were added is to imply that "this is how an Uyghur looks like". As such, two other editors and I believe they should be removed from the page, as we do not believe that Misplaced Pages should promote generalisations of an ethnicity based on the looks of one or two individuals. As far as I can see, this is also the consensus that was reached on previous discussions about this matter; images of individuals should not be added for the purposes of ethnic generalisation, as they are inherently exclusive and unscientific.

However, three other editors (Horse Eye's Back, My very best wishes, TucanHolmes) claim that the images serve as an "illustrative aid", although I have not seen them be able to come up with an argument of what exactly is supposed to be illustrated by the images other than the aforementioned generalisation of an entire ethnicity. "TucanHolmes" and "my very best wishes" are arguing with MOS:PERTINENCE to "keep them until we have better ones", but as far as I can see, MOS:PERTINENCE does not condone ethnic generalisations in the first place.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Uyghur_genocide#Including_random_photos_of_a_uyghur_child_and_grandmother_relating_to_Marriage_incentives_makes_no_sense

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarify whether the inclusion of images for the sole purpose of ethnic generalisation is suitable for Misplaced Pages.

Summary of dispute by Stonksboi

Summary of dispute by PailSimon

Summary of dispute by Horse Eye's Back

There have been a lot of involved editors but I don’t think anyone has actually argued that we should be using these images "for the sole purpose of ethnic generalisation” (if I’m wrong I’d like to be shown a diff). It seems like one heck of a leading question, one only loosely based in reality. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

That is what I gathered from the comments of the editors involved. For example, TucanHolmes said, I quote: "This article is about an ethnic group, so showing members of that ethnic groups help people visualise the topic (it helped me, for one)." They are humans. Why exactly would someone need help visualising how a human looks like except for pigeonholing? Does a Silesian look different from a Swabian? Does an Andalusian look different from a Castillian? If I showed you ten pictures of random people, Uyghurs and non-Uyghurs, do you think you could tell them apart by their looks? If not, then including images of random individuals serves no informational purpose. Sarrotrkux (talk) 02:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by My very best wishes

Summary of dispute by TucanHolmes

Summary of dispute by Mikehawk10

The talk page has been having an ordinary, albeit contested, discussion regarding whether or not to include two pictures within the page. One of these pictures is that of an older Uyghur woman wearing a hijab, while the other is of a young, female Child. Of those who believe that the images should be kept (4 editors, when I am included), there is general agreement that the reason for them to be kept is based in MOS:PERTINENCE, and that they should be kept until better images are found. Of those who do not believe the images should be kept (3 editors), the general argument is that the images are irrelevant to the article, and/or that they don't provide additional understanding. I am unsure why I was initially left out of this, since I am involved (and support maintaining the images on the page).

Aside from the substantive debate on the article contents, which I have described above, one of my comments was split in two on the talk page by Sarrotrkux and thereby refactored (I have since placed my comments back together). Outside of the talk page itself, stonksboi has alleged that Horse Eye's Back is a "staunch anti-China troll", which likely constitutes a personal attack. He also noted that he suspected that I am HEB's sockpuppet, which I am not (and this can be confirmed by a checkuser).

It should be noted that stonksboi has previously been blocked by EdJohnston for edit warring on the 2022 Winter Olympics page, where the user repeatedly deleted information that referred to the ongoing Uyghur genocide and the 2019-2020 Hong Kong protests, after being reported by Normchou. Mikehawk10 (talk) 22:08, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Uyghur genocide discussion

• Volunteer Comment Typically disputes with more than 4 editors do not work out on the DRN. I would reccomend an WP:RFC instead. There have also been allegations of Behavioral issues, which belong at WP:ANI. the DRN will not decide issues- we will only mediate a compromise. IF this is what all involved editors want- please reply to this comment saying you understand and are willing to participate in a mediated discussion towards a compromise. Other than that please do not engage in back and forth discussion until a volunteer agrees to take on this case. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Participant's Responses

Principally yes, though I'm not sure what compromise is possible between not including such images and including them. It's not like this is an argument about subjective phrasing in which you can realistically reach a middle-ground, because you can't "half-include" an image. Sarrotrkux (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I believe that the original comment on the talk page, which includes a concern that the inclusion of the images "are a serious issue that should not be left for such a limited amount of users to decide" could be best resolved along the lines of an RfC, since this appears to be looking for additional users to weigh in on the issue at hand. I have therefore, in line with the recommendation given by Nightenbelle, created an RfC on the talk page related to the inclusion of the contested images. Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman (3rd nomination) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• User:Radio Adept (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Michael Sayman, a well-known software engineer who has been the subject of coverage in innumerable reliable outlets, is clearly the target of a harassment campaign at the moment. Despite being obviously eligible for a Misplaced Pages page there is a coordinated campaign by critics of his to get his page removed.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

The deletion campaign is obviously coordinated and a result of someone with a personal vendetta against Sayman.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Protecting Sayman's page, which should clearly stay up, from frivolous deletion.

Summary of dispute by User:Radio Adept

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Michael Sayman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Purplehippo458 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I believe this article's deletion discussion requires more editors with a Latin American background of context around the notability of this person.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Sayman_(3rd_nomination)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

If we can have a more diversified group of editors discuss the nomination of deletion of this page.

Michael Sayman discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Frederick S. Jaffe (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved Dispute overview

I was asked to provide additional citations in support of a section of the Frederick S. Jaffe page regarding a memo he wrote in 1969. I have provided new wording for the section which I believe totally meets the requested additions. However, I am not allowed to post the new material since I am the son of the subject. So I am just looking for someone to post it. The new wording is at

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I just need someone to review the new text, see if all claims are properly cited, and then post it to the Frederick S. Jaffe page.

Summary of dispute by

Frederick S. Jaffe discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Danielbr11 (talk · contribs)
• C.J. Griffin (talk · contribs)
• Rklahn (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I am trying to edit the article to show 150 million as maximum estimate for Mass killings under communist regimes by providing The following peer reviewed scholarly sources https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C28&q=The+Russian+GULAG+Understanding+the+Dangers+of+Marxism+Combined+With+Totalitarianism&btnG= https://www.jstor.org/stable/24563310?seq=1 even a third and fourth backup source https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/disaster-red-hundredth-anniversary-russian-socialist-revolution/ https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg75859/pdf/CHRG-112hhrg75859.pdf

In the policies below it is stated non neutral sources are allowed its simply the editing such as sentence phrasing in the article that must be neutral. The article has both points of view because it has a minimim estimate AND a maximum estimate. My edit is simply a number. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutrality_of_sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV_means_neutral_editing,_not_neutral_content In fact look what it says here under achieving neutrality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view it says "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased." And here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources it says "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." Again the article shows both point of views as minimum and maximum estimates.

The two other users have been violating the above policies by deleting my edits simply because they view my sources as biased. Ps: In fact this article says “lack of consensus” in the notes for European colonization while there are also sources that say “unreliable source” next to them and even Rummel is used as a source on the list.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll#Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

By showing that my sources are acceptable scholarly peer reviewed sources regardless of perceived bias because the article has space for both viewpoints- minimum and maximum estimates. Ps: I already requested closure on administrators notice board.

Summary of dispute by C.J. Griffin

Summary of dispute by Rklahn

I believe this dispute has elements of both a content dispute and a conduct dispute, but Im only going to address content here. The sources lack a neutral point of view. They are from either a strongly Christian Conservative or Libertarian POV.

List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll discussion

• Volunteer Note ANI has been closed, participants have been notified. I am going to recuse myself as I tried to help on the article talk page- but I do not need to be included as a participant either. Best of luck to all involved. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Nightenbelle you dont have to recuse yourself from here i got the source from the liberty article as Martin, Prevailing Worldviews, 182. Like you asked but the two other users dont understand that neutral point of view applies to the article sentence phrasing not sources as the policy links i shared state. The article already has both point of views through minimum estimates and maximum estimates.Danielbr11 (talk) 16:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate your trust, but I think you are wrong in trying to use those sources Danielbr11... and I can't be a neutral moderator if I have, and acted on an opinion.Nightenbelle (talk) 16:38, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (List of disasters)

I thank User:Nightenbelle for involvement in this dispute, and am willing to act as the moderator. I am not as familiar with the content as I am with some disputes, and I will expect the editors to provide the background knowledge, just as the article should present their knowledge to the readers. Please read the usual ground rules. You are expected to follow them without having them explained to you a second time. I will restate the rules to comment on content, not contributors, and the rule to be civil and concise. In particular, overly long statements may make the author feel better, but do not inform the other editors well, so be concise.

Does the dispute have to do with deaths caused by communist dictatorships?

Does the dispute have to do with the reliability of sources?

Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they want changed in the article, or what they want kept the same?

Robert McClenon (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

First statements by editors (List of disasters)

The dispute has to do with mass killings under communist regimes and it is about the reliability of my peer reviewed scholarly sources below because i am trying to simply add it to the list with 150 million as the maximum death count while there is already a minimum estimate space for opposing views. The policy links above showed that one cannot remove a supposed biased source and that unbiased sources are not required because it is the article that is to be neutral/balanced not the sources. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C28&q=The+Russian+GULAG+Understanding+the+Dangers+of+Marxism+Combined+With+Totalitarianism&btnG= https://www.jstor.org/stable/24563310?seq=1 even a third fourth or fifth backup source https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/disaster-red-hundredth-anniversary-russian-socialist-revolution/ https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-112hhrg75859/pdf/CHRG-112hhrg75859.pdf https://books.google.com/books?id=W-l28GIoyQ4C&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=le+figaro+communism+%22150+million%22&source=bl&ots=Ryi6MFAR6z&sig=ACfU3U03xzst5_KQE0ua_9-HmufP-SazUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiaj5CHq9juAhVZCs0KHShqA58Q6AEwBHoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=le%20figaro%20communism%20%22150%20million%22&f=false Danielbr11 (talk) 18:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The dispute has nothing to do with the number of deaths under communist dictatorships and everything to do with the reliability of sources. Without sources that provide a neutral point of view or additional sources that provide the opposing view, I want the status quo maintained, and there to be no edit. Rklahn (talk) 19:30, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (List of disasters)

I think that I know what the issue is, but it is the responsibility of the editors to state what the issue. It is not the responsibility of the moderator to state what the issue or issues are.

Will each editor please state exactly what they want to add to the article or remove from the article, or, if they want the status quo, exactly what they are disagreeing with.

If a particular source or sources are the issue, please identify the source, and why the source is reliable or unreliable. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:10, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (List of disasters)

Even in DRN, he onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.. Unless directly asked by the the Volunteer, Im going to let Danielbr11 go first. Rklahn (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I am trying to add Mass killings under communist regimes to the list with a maximum estimate of 150 million as shown in these two scholarly peer reviewed sources which meet the reliable source criteria since source neutrality is not required per the policies because the article is neutral with minimum estimates as well. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C28&q=The+Russian+GULAG+Understanding+the+Dangers+of+Marxism+Combined+With+Totalitarianism&btnG= https://www.jstor.org/stable/24563310?seq=1 even a third source if required https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/disaster-red-hundredth-anniversary-russian-socialist-revolution/Danielbr11 (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (List of atrocities)

Exactly where in the listicle (list article) do you want to add the entry about communist regimes? And exactly what number of people do you propose to list? I will state again that the purpose of this mediation is to improve the article. It is hard to assess the value of a change to the article without stating exactly where in the article the change should be made. (I know that I could wade through the diffs if I wanted to do that. I don't want to, and you do want my volunteer help in resolving this content dispute.)

Also, please provide references for the sources formatted exactly as you intend to have them appear in the listicle if your addition is accepted.

We already have an article on Mass killings under Communist regimes, which discusses these deaths. Do they really constitute a single atrocity or anthropogenic disaster? (Can Stalin and Mao really be consolidated, other than as twentieth-century despots?) But first answer the question of exactly what you want added to the listicle and where.

I am asking editors who disagree with the source because they consider it to be unreliable to state why they consider it to be unreliable.

Third statements by editors (Lists of atrocities)

The entry could be added on Wars and armed conflicts right below European Colonization of the Americas which also combines many countries/leaders with many different causes of death such as disease famine executions torturings work camps and battles. Every item on the article already has its own page and there is even another item on the list called Genocide of Indigenous Americans which has basically the same number as European Colonization of the Americas. Of course the entry could go under War crimes, massacres and ancient war atrocities or List of political leaders and regimes by death toll. I would put 150 million per the sources as the maximum estimate. The sources would be: https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1350&context=honors https://www.jstor.org/stable/24563310?seq=1 https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/disaster-red-hundredth-anniversary-russian-socialist-revolutionDanielbr11 (talk) 06:24, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

It's somewhat difficult for me to make a statement at this stage. Im not entirely clear exactly what edit we are now talking about. Im going to assume perhaps in a different section, but with the sources listed by Danielbr11 in the paragraph above.

I believe each source to be unreliable.

• https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1350&context=honors is a Senior thesis in support of a degree from Liberty University. Liberty University describes itself as a conservative Christian institution, and is not neutral in its political or economic philosophy, it is politically conservative (in the American sense) and Capitalist. Anything published by Liberty University should not be taken a reliable in the area economic philosophy, and in particular, a subject for a contentious claim like the number of deaths under Communism.
• https://www.jstor.org/stable/24563310?seq=1 is a self described reflection. It is an exercise in introspection, shared with others. By definition, it's not intended to be verifiable. And not being verifiable, its not reliable.
• https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/disaster-red-hundredth-anniversary-russian-socialist-revolution is published by the The Future of Freedom Foundation. An advocacy group promoting libertarianism in both American domestic and foreign policy. It should not be taken as a reliable source for anything having to do with Communism, which it is in direct opposition to.

For the record: I believe the status quo should be kept, and this edit not made. Rklahn (talk) 18:52, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Atrocities)

There is a link to the article on Mass killings under communist regimes.

Moderated discussion has failed to resolve this content dispute. I will be closing this content dispute as failed. Further civil discussion can continue at the article talk page. There are at least four ways forward for the editors in this dispute. First, any question about the reliability of a source can be taken to the reliable source noticeboard. Second, a neutrally worded question about article content can be posted to the community via a Request for Comments. Third, disruptive editing can be reported at WP:ANI. I do not advise that path because the editing has not been disruptive. Fourth, the editor who is in the minority can accept that they are in the minority, at least for the time being. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:28, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (List of atrocities)

I guess I am going to step in and get involved as a participant. Because I have reviewed it and why these sources shouldn't be included... -- The Liberty University Senior Thesis is not peer reviewed- its a published senior thesis on a university website- any senior of Liberty University (A college with known and extreme conservatively bent philosophies that are questionable at best when it comes to neutral political research.). It is cited by 1 other source.... so not highly respected in that regard. AND it only claims 60 million deaths- not the 150 million it is being used to support. So it should be disqualified on three fronts- not peer reviewed, not "respected" (cited by other articles), and does not say what editor claims.

-- The Fruits of Fallacy BOOK CRITIQUE (not actually a research / scholarly paper on this subject at all) does say 150 million.... but does not clarify why or how those are dead or even that it was because of communism. Stalin is mentioned as somehow involved- but not actually blamed for the deaths. There is no source at all cited for this information and it is in the a poetic attempt at an introduction- but with no source cited- We cannot accept a vague number with no actual causes attributed to it. Now it is in a peer reviewed journal- so if it did have a real number with a real cause- it would be a good source, but since it offers a number with no cause- it cannot be used to support this particular edit.

-- The third source is from a right wing think tank that is very biased and not peer reviewed- but rather a propaganda machine- not a Reliable source at all. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:49, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me Nightenbelle and Rklahn both of you do not get to override policy and decide what reliable is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view it says "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased." And here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources it says "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." Peer review is not even required these sources meet the critirea period. Furthermore you didnt even read the liberty article https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1350&context=honors where it says "Throughout the life of the Soviet Union from 1917 to its collapse in 1991, between 100 and 150 million people were put to death under communist rule" On top of all this is the fact even https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF puts the maximum death toll at 259,432,000 for communist regimes. Danielbr11 (talk) 21:18, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Actually- I read every word of the Liberty paper thank you very much- So I'll thank you to strike that and stop making accusations. It was a long and boring read- took me about 45 minutes. You need to stop being so rude and defensive when debating- discuss the issue, stop making it personal and attacking us as editors. Now- as to us overriding policy- no, we don't. However both of us have extensive experience interpreting that policy (specifically WP:RS here on WP. I have been reviewing new articles for six months now- the number one thing I look at there is the sources- so other than mediate on the DRN, evaluating RS is what I do here on WP. To introduce controversial material- you do have to have WP:RS. Now- Biased sources can occasionally be the best possible sources for providing information about different viewpoints. But you are not adding different viewpoints- you are trying to add cold hard facts- and for that, you need unbiased peer reviewed sources. Which you have not provided. As for Peer reviewed- for a source to be "respected" we look at how it is sourced, how often it is cited, and how it is reviewed/published. Peer reviewing is a common term that means that the source faces rigorous vetting before it was published- which is a handy way of saying- half our work as WP editors was already done. Non-peer reviewed sources can be used, but they require more scruitiny- who is publishing them? What is their motivation? Is it sourced appropriately? Can we trust the publisher? So its not that its required that sources be peer reviewed- but if they are, we don't have to examine them as closely. Which is why for the 3rd source- I went to the pulisher. Notice I didn't say that it wasn't good enough because it wasn't peer reviewed- I said it doesn't work because the publisher isn't trustworthy. I said that it wasn't peer reviewed- yes, but thats not why I rejected it- it was the bias publisher that is the problem. So... the new source you added- is a spreadsheet. That looks at the numbers of Democide in various countries. Basically you have provided a primary source. Peachy. You could use this to write an journal article or thesis- but not a WP article. Using primary sources is WP:OR which is not allowed. Whats more- the deaths under these governments does not indicate cause or political motivation- so it does not support your addition anyway. I did a quick check and looked at the website hosting this- while it is on the University of Hawaii website- it is actually the personal page of a late professor- not an actual university sponsored website. It is maintained as a memorial of sorts- not as an actual University sponsored or approved site- and it has a disclaimer on the site that says, "professor Rummel passed away on March 2, 2014. His "Powerkills" website will be maintained by the University of Hawaii Political Science Department. Please contact (REDACTED) with any questions or comments." So- this source is also, not reliable as it is a primary source hosted on a personal webpage. Nightenbelle (talk) 22:41, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

The Quote I was using for the 60 million was, "Solzhenitsyn estimated that those who died as a direct result of Stalin’s directives reached nearly 60 million." Because I looked at those who were killed directly at the order of the communist leader- not just everyone who died for any reason.Nightenbelle (talk) 22:48, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me Nightenbelle now you are making up your own policy without stating where it says that in policy. This source meets the reliable source criteria for controversial material. Nowhere does the policy state you need unbiased peer reviewed sources. The reliable sources policy states "Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered". This means the wiki article has to have both viewpoints covered which it does as minimum and maximum estimates. This is not saying the source has to have both viewpoints but only if it does do you have to mention them. The liberty source does have the range of minimum and maximum estimates 100 to 150 million which is what my edit said. You can even put another source as the minimum if you wanted. On top of that this source from harvard says 162 million communism deaths between mao and stalin. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2003/4/29/predatory-politics-what-was-the-greatest/ STOP disobeying the policy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view it says "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased." And here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources it says "Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." You are not going to disallow an edit based on your OPINION and you already recused yourself earlier with your circular reasoning.

Danielbr11 (talk) 23:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable', published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered" Please actually read my arguments. I'm saying the sources are not reliable because the publisher is biased. Not that the source itself is biased. I'm not using circular reasoning- I have been very consistently saying the entire time that the sources cannot be used if they are not reliable. THats not circular- its policy. WP:IDONTHEARTHAT doesn't change that. Insulting me doesn't change that. And please- stop telling me what I am and am not going to do. Its rude and aggressiveM. WP policy is going to disallow this edit. Not me personally. This has nothing to do with my personal opinion and everything to do with a review of the sources- which are not reliable. You have multiple editors telling you that. A consensus of editors telling you that. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2024 Russian presidential election (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• LauraWilliamson (talk · contribs)
• Mr Savva (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have tried to add a line in the lead stating that prominent Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny has been banned from running in the election, possibly due to political motivations. This was the case in the 2018 election, and was noted in the lead of that election's article (Navalny has been in the news a bit recently, but was already banned from running in any elections since 2017 until after 2028). Mr Savva keeps removing this content however, and when I took it to the talk page the user was very reluctant and slow to reply to the first message and carried on editing the article regardless, and now some days later have started removing the content without replying to the talk page discussion at all (they have only made one short entry on that list some time ago, and only made that after I sent them a message on their talk page asking them to participate in the debate). I've repeatedly reminded them to engage in the talk page debate, but they just insist in edit summaries that because the information is already in the body of the article (disqualified candidates) section then it can't be in the lead. But surley the lead should summarise important points in the article?

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:2024_Russian_presidential_election#Mr_Savva - I have attempted an extensive discussion over the last week and outlined my points in quite a lot of detail but the other user has stopped engaging in the debate, - I tried to encourage them to reply to the talk page as they were starting to ignore it

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Since the user is not complying by not participating in the talk page discussion, I just wanted some input to advise whether the inclusion of this content is allowed and to confirm whether it is wrong to prohibit the inclusion of a mention in the lead because "it is already in the main body of the article". I would have thought the purpose of the lead is to summarise important points in the main body.

Summary of dispute by Mr Savva

2024 Russian presidential election discussion

•  Volunteer note: @LauraWilliamson: Talk page comments like this are not helpful nor productive. Seemplez 20:19, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes fair enough that is a bit off, apologies. I was frustrated that I wasn't getting a response. LauraWilliamson (talk) 21:43, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Dan Pena (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ifdc (talk · contribs)
• Hipal (talk · contribs)
• Bishonen (talk · contribs)
• Curb Safe Charmer (talk · contribs)
• Sethie (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is a lot of hostility at the page Dan Pena, I started editing a few days ago and right at the beginning I get messages on my talk page accusing me of being a paid advocate, which I am not. Then I'm accused of being a sock puppet by an admin out of nowhere, with no evidence just what appears to be a 'hunch'. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Ifdc#Precocious_user

I realize this complaint shouldn't be all about behavior so I'm hoping somebody can step in and actually look at the content of the article Dan Pena and tell me if you think it is written in a biased way, or not? To me it reads neutral but I'd like a more experienced editor to have a look. Thank you

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Dan_Peña#Unjustified_Reverts_and_False_Accusations_of_Paid_Advocacy https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Ifdc#Precocious_user

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I keep being accused of violating neutral point of view and of being a paid advocate, can you please look at my edits and tell me if my edits are okay? I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong and I feel like Hipal and Bishonen are gaslighting me.

Summary of dispute by Ifdc

Summary of dispute by Hipal

Summary of dispute by Bishonen

Summary of dispute by Curb Safe Charmer

Summary of dispute by Sethie

Dan Pena discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.