| Revision as of 00:17, 22 January 2010 editWoogee (talk | contribs)6,057 edits →PROD fails utterly: ok thanks← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 05:06, 7 April 2021 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,294,330 editsm Archiving 73 discussion(s) to Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Phase I/Archive 2, Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Phase I/Archive 1, Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people/Phase I/Archive 3) (botTag: Replaced | ||
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| Let's try to keep it civil and succinct, eh? | |||
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| == Alphabetize views == | |||
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| Would it make sense to alphabetize the views by username? I've never really liked the idea of chronological ordering, as I think it unfairly favors earlier views too much. --] (]) 16:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| | archiveheader = {{Automatic archive navigator}} | |||
| :May I change my username first? '']]<span style="color:DarkOrange">Chequers''</span> 17:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
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| ::WSC---you make the proposal to go in reverse alphabetical order.---''']''' '']'' 21:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
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| ==Collaborative views== | |||
| {{archives|bot=lowercase sigmabot III|age=7}} | |||
| Could we have a go at establishing some collaboratively edited views? I can see the volume of individual, partially overlapping, partially contradicting views spiralling into ] extremely quickly. Perhaps this could be in a separate section at the bottom. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : Yes please! I was away for inly a few hours, and this is already overwhelming. --] (]) 00:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == NOINDEX == | |||
| Unfortunately NOINDEX is disabled in article space. That can't be done without some fairly serious changes and risks. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :but everything in the ] is noindexed! yay! ] <sup>]</sup> 17:25, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == A reasonable rate == | |||
| I think prodding 100 unreferenced BLP articles per day would be reasonable. If there are a few thousand, that will remove the backlog within a few months. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Actually determining the number of unreferenced BLPs would be useful, but there might be no way to do that without going through them all (and along the way we'd obviously do the cleanup, making the count moot). Apparently there are over 50,000 so tagged, but undoubtedly a significant number of those are not actually unsourced (the tags were added incorrectly, or sources were later added and the tags not removed). Still, 100 a day would probably be a reasonable starting point, and if we were handling that load we could quickly ramp it up. Even while this general RFC runs I really think we should figure out a means to deal with the unreferenced bunch just as a starting point for tackling the overall problem. Coming to agreement about prodding unreferenced BLPs (or ], which is probably acceptable to more people), is something we need to do asap, particularly as ArbCom appears ready to validate a delete-on-sight approach. I don't have a problem with doing that if we can't come to another solution, but an organized effort that is logged centrally (as opposed to admins deleting at random without warning) is much preferred. Discussion should continue at ] (and at ] though I think the former is a better route) since it's already well on its way. --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 17:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've slowly started building a list of ]. --] (]) 17:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Completely ''un''referenced, obviously (would be fun to debate what "completely referenced" means though!). That's great MZM, so are you saying that this list will weed out situations where the article should not be tagged as unreferenced to begin with (i.e. it does have sources but no one removed the tag), or is it basically just an easier to handle list of all of the stuff in the category for unreferenced BLPs? Also are you imagining that we would use this as a jumping off point for cleaning these up or deleting if clean up doesn't happen? --] <small>| ] | ]</small> 17:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Completely referenced? I'd say that would be where every statement in the article is supported by a reliable, third-party source, and is ''explicitly'' tied to that source. Of course such an article could still violate NPOV and BLP. ] (]) 21:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Change to PROD overall == | |||
| Note that all of these proposals generally discourage removal of the yet to be devised BLP PROD template. Of course, current PROD policy is that the template can be removed, by anyone, even the creator. Personally I've always had issue with this, as it's almost always inevitably removed, thus forcing it to AFD. Thus I wonder how the differences in BLP PROD and normal PRODS will be reconciled on the guidance article, so as to not add too much confusion? Is it time to consider making it so that PROD's generally shouldn't be removed by the article's creator, unless they do one of two things (or both): 1) edit the article to address at least one of the concerns noted in the PROD template; 2) note on the article's talk page why they removed the PROD template, either by addressing the concerns in the template, or why they think the template was added in error. I don't think it's too much to ask of the editor to either attempt to address the concerns, or at least make one edit on the talk page before allowing removal of the template. ] <small> ]]'''</small> 17:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Your proposal has been rejected many times; and the logic which rejects it was part of the rejection of the "BLP don't removed PROD unless sourced" proposal at ]. Not saying I agree with the logic, but there are arguments on both sides, and one side has always prevailed pretty strongly in the past. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::"Almost always" isn't my experience. I'd like to see some stats on: prods removed with no other change v prods salvaged v prods expiring and deleted. I suspect the proportion of deleted prods is far higher than you think. I'm certainly aware of enough deleted prods to disprove the Almost always charge. '']]<span style="color:DarkOrange">Chequers''</span> 17:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::Okay, let's ignore what I felt to be a rational idea of requiring people to at least attempt to address the concerns in the PROD tag (or explain why they disagreed and removed it). Let's focus on how the treatment of BLP PROD's (if implemented) will be reconciled with the general PROD procedure to make a coherent guidance document that normal editors marking articles for deletion can understand. One will continue to allow removal by anyone for whatever reason or attempts to do anything really, whilst the other will not allow this unless the unreferenced BLP issue is resolved. ] <small> ]]'''</small> 17:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==Regardless of the outcome, we should ignore the results of this RFC== | |||
| As Scott MacDonald and Tarc espouse, should we hold the results of this RFC in "utter contempt" and "ignore" it? ] 21:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| I just closed a discussion at CSD related to this topic and directed them here in an effort to centralize discussion.---''']''' '']'' 22:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Similarly, I've notified the people discussing this issue at ] of this discussion... we should not concurrent discussions going on all over the place. Personally, I was about to cry "Forum Shopping" until I saw that the RfC was instigated at the request of ArbCOM. This is being discussed in too many places.---''']''' '']'' 22:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :I also notified the people at ]---''']''' '']'' 22:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Meta-view by Kotniski == | |||
| :''Moved from the subject-space page. --] (]) 23:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)'' | |||
| This is just the same discussion that is already taking place in at least two other places. Can we stop this forking? | |||
| ; Users who endorse this summary | |||
| # ] (]) 16:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| # Yes, but an RfC is finally the RIGHT place to discuss this, so let's close all the others in favor of this, shall we? ] (]) 16:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| #: Agree, and add links from those places to here, and move this Meta-view to the talk page, which is where meta things and threaded conversations belong. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| #''']''' (]) 21:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| NOTE: I've closed the discussions down at WP:CSD and WP:PROD, linking this RfC. I also notified the people discussing a proposed new policy about this RfC. See this pages talk page for links.---''']''' '']'' 22:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ==PROD fails utterly== | |||
| See {{user|Power.corrupts}}'s edits. Mindless removals of PRODs. The PROD process is obviously not the way this is going to be resolved. ] (]) 23:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :It will if it cannot be removed if the article is not fixed. If thats the way we go, his behaviour is blockable. ]] 23:43, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'd endorse that if it comes to it, but as I say in my comment, it's better to clog up AfD than it is to throw the baby out with the bathwater with prods. Prodders can always watchlist the article and open an AfD if the tag is taken off without fixing the issue. ] ] 23:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Once a prod is placed it is visible in the history even after removal. Removing the tag doesn't significantly hamper identification of unsourced BLPS. --] 00:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Power.corrupts is also putting oldprodfull tags into the Talk pages of all of the articles he's removing the PRODs from. Is this an appropriate action? ] (]) 00:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| : Yes, it makes the problematic articles even easier to identify. --] 00:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::OK, thanks. ] (]) 00:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| == Oppose sections == | |||
| I thought Requests for comments generally avoided oppose sections? Where is the ] dictator? --] (]) 23:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :Just remove it and put a hidden comment there reminding editors that these types of RfCs don't use oppose sections. ] (]) 00:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC) | |||
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