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Revision as of 22:57, 19 January 2007

Controlled demo, WTC, etc.

Any advice on how to deal with this situation would be appreciated. (Especially from someone who does not have very strong opinions about the subject.) Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center--Thomas Basboll 13:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

So far you're doing what you need to, which is keeping cool and staying on firm ground. I think sticking with that strategy is your best bet.

One of your problems is that the last person to try large changes to the article was a pretty difficult fellow. He would often start out proposing what seemed to be reasonable changes and then get less reasonable. Whether he didn't have the discipline to keep his POV in check, or was trying to sneak things in, I don't know. I think a lot of people are waiting to see if you crack under pressure and say something nutty.

Part of the skepticisim directed at you is also because you don't have much of an edit history. It would probably go easier for you if you had a bunch of edits in an unrelated field (such as your area of expertise) that could be checked over for tone and content. Also, it may have been easier if you had started out as a participant in the discussion at the collapse page rather than the principal. I'm not certain about that, though - It's rather polarized and anything you say will likely get you lumped into one of the two camps. Toiyabe 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks. I may take your advice. I've done some big (but few) changes on the social epistemology page, some of them a while back before I decided to use my real name. I guess I could just let all this lie for bit longer before actually making the edits.--Thomas Basboll 17:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Apparently new to Misplaced Pages, you jumped into a contentious article, made some improvements, and largely had your way with an extensive rewrite. Rejoice and be glad. You will be in a better position to judge Mongo's behavior after you have more experience. Tom Harrison 15:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!

Hi Thomas - just want to flash you a big smile for the great job you are doing at Collapse of the World Trade Center. You are apparantly the one needed to get this articles standard up. Keep up the good work :) EyesAllMine 09:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thanks, it's been interesting. After the original controversy I reread the article and thought that much of the policy talk (POV and OR especially) was pretty minor given the level of the prose. It seemed especially strange to banish even the dismissal of CD, when NIST's own account was hardly on the page at all. Anyway, I'm glad you like it.--Thomas Basboll 10:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Also, I want to say keep up the good work on the World Trade Center. Dont let anyone take that site down. --Bangabalunga 00:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Dynamic/Statics in Scope of the Search subsection

I've reworded the "The scope of the search" subsection. I hope it helps folks understand the difference between static and dynamic a bit better. If you are still unclear, let me know - it needs to be understandable to a reasonably intelligent non-specialist.

Structural Engineering is not my field. I've been rather hoping that someone with experiance in that field would step in, but no luck yet. Toiyabe 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In case you're wondering

I won't read my resume to you, but I am well educated...so when I see posts on my talk page declaring that you believe I am "a man of a particular kind of science at best" it's pretty hard to take you seriously. I'm not an engineer, but indeed I do know what the differences between reliable sources and those that aren't and I don't appreciate accusations to the contrary.--MONGO 20:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Do a read through of WP:RS, WP:V and WP:NPOV, with the last one, concentrating on the undue weight clause...which is very important in ensuring we don't give undue weight where it has little or no basis in known science.--MONGO 21:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Flat Earth vs Round Earth compared to Controlled demolition vs Massive destuction due to tremendous kenetic energy and massive fires are entirely different things. Here's the difference: the first comparison is benign...no one was killed, no one is hurt by believing in a flat earth. No one is hurt or bothered by whether someone believes in UFO's or the tooth fairy either. Those that postulate controlled demolition adversely affect the quality fo this encyclopedic effort if they try to tweak wording or twist the evidence to support dogma with no basis in science. As is clearly demonstrated in the undue weight clause and in WP:NOR, if there is nothing that has been properly published in any reputable source, then it is best to exclude it. We are not "after the truth" we are after what can be verified. If the "truth" isn't verifiable, then we don't include it.--MONGO 21:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, see you on the discussion pages at the article. Bye.--MONGO 22:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Good Work

That's some good editing. Intro, origins, and main approaches are interesting, accurate, neutral and don't seem like they could be the object of too much contention. It's been a long time coming. Good work! SkeenaR 09:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You think you might want to have a look at the Conspiracy theory article? If you get a chance, maybe have a look-see. I think it needs a lot of work to be both neutral and factually descriptive. Your ideas or input would be appreciated. It's a difficult subject. SkeenaR 09:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for an opinion

Hello Thomas. I particulalry admire your edits to Collapse of WTC and your discussion on the talk page and I see your point of view as "professionally neutral" and very resonable. That is why I would like to ask you for an opinion in a discussion on Talk:Steven_E._Jones under "Currently investigating?". Just if you could look on the second part of this discussion, where we are trying to settle whether Steven Jones's work about WTC collapse is to be reported as a "research" or not. Thank you.

A good example - that what was needed (I must remember that). That is where experience comes in handy. :) Thank you. --SalvNaut 22:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Coincidence?

I finished writing you an email, and just then saw your message :) Heh, I'll reply soon. --SalvNaut 14:06, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I got the point with "published paper" :).

Do you think this whole mess at BYU will make it better for the case to be clarified? I mean: is there a chance that they will have a really close look on his findings, cool look - free from prejudice? --SalvNaut 16:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Steven Jones

I've not the time to re-enter the fray right now, but saw the latest developments re: BYU and Jones, and also saw your comments on the matter. I just wanted to say that, regardless of how the matter turns out, I appreciate that you seem prepared to alter your stance based on available info. It reflects quite well on you. Happy editing. Levi P. 18:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Good job on the summery. Levi P. 03:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Paul Thompson's Terror Timeline

• No.--Peephole 20:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• Yes.--Peephole 20:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
• I guess I just felt like it. --Peephole 20:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Please see . Tyrenius 22:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Origins and reception

Okay, I just think Jones' remarks are too trivial to mention. --Peephole 21:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• Not really but his claim that he predicted the attack is. --Peephole 21:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• I believe it is yes. I edited the reference to belief in a global network back in, fine?--Peephole 21:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I am astonished that a major conspiracy theorist's claim to have predicted the attack has been termed trivial. It is a significant illumination of his mentality — for good or bad. That remark, not to mention others I have encountered, borders on trolling behaviour. Tyrenius 01:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

9/11 related

The thing is to make sure any articles are properly referenced. They can always be prepared on a user sub-page, before they are put into the main article space, and thus presenting them in their best state for other editors, rather than in their unformed state. Tyrenius 01:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It's second time...

I ask you for opinion and/or help. There is an article 7 World Trade Center in which there is a section "Collapse", and there are many unsourced statements. I've tried to add those two of mine from Collapse of WTC but MONGO of course reverted. You seem to know how to discuss with him - I am not sure if I can handle it by myself (at this moment he refuses to discuss and I can't do nothing more because of WP:3RR). Of course if you don't have time to bother with it - no problem, I'll do my best. --SalvNaut 20:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Controlled demolition AfD request

Hi, an admin recommended I ask someone else to make note of this, per this comment by User:JoshuaZ. Would you be willing per that advice to post that/draw attention to the fact of the previous AfD and the people involved? It seems that this article was AfD'd again immediately after the last ended. I suspect that MONGO will become incensed if I do it myself, as we both MONGO and myself got blocked over this from edit warring. I'm asking 1-2 other editors as well. I am asking you as you've participated in the AfD, and Joshua recommended I do this. Thanks. · XP · 04:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

That was the idea, just to ensure it was crystal clear to not just the closing admin but also to new users seeing the AfD that this was just extremely recently AfD'd, then AfD'd immediately again. If you do not wish to I understand. I don't know if it would inflame things, I just agree with Joshua that if I did it, it would certainly inflame the mess from earlier today with MONGO. I just wished to make sure that all viewers had a crystal clear image of the entire situation. · XP · 06:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:Controlled Demolition of WTC

Thanks for letting me know, I was away from my computer all yesterday. Whilst I think it was inevitable that the article would receive another afd nomination, it is rather quick- the nominator should have left more time to see if the article would be significantly improved. However, now it is running I don't think I (or anyone else) should close it- just add your comments to the afd as usual (which can of course include the above argument, but should also argue from a content, not just procedural point of view). The first afd was rather unusual anyway so having a second afd with this particular article in focus is justifiable from that point of view. Petros471 07:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

if you wouldn't mind...

I created a special page for my own use at User:XP/PendingDeletionsofNote. If you should happen to see any AfDs, MfDs, etc., that you think I should know about, please feel free to update this page to notify me--it works for me as an include to both my User and Talk page, so I will see it. I unfortunately don't always have time to look at the whole listings of those sections, or keep up. This will help a lot. Also, if you want, feel free to help yourself to using it as well on your own page. I added instructions for the curious in case they don't know fancy wikicode. Feel free to let anyone else know about my page and it's function--I don't mind more people knowing about, so that I can be aware. · XP · 06:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

9/11 post protracted AfD

We posted on the article talk page at about the same time. I think what has happened might be called "A procedural victory" rather than anything else. I suggested just below your post that it ought to be a miniwikiproject. Looks like we have the same concept. I was going to suggest that, especially since you seem to know the content of this article well, you might (a) move your post down into the putative "mini...." area, and (b) might wish to co-ordinate things. After all you do seem to react calmly to criticism.  :) Fiddle Faddle 11:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I think, when faced with another editor who impugns integrity one needs to exercise militant patience that is inexhaustible, and probably answer every item except the integrity issue. I have not studied the papers, I have no knowledge of "who is correct" because I am simply standing back and attempting to be helpful, rather than being involved. I would say, simply, that correctness will out. Please continue to keep calm. Each editor is different, and some will express their thoughts in a way that is distasteful to others. An example I'm ignoring at the moment is somewhat strident at Talk:ARA San Luis rather near the bottom. Fiddle Faddle 19:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"Controversial"

I agree on shorter, and the total edit is now just the one adjective. I really couldn't see how either side of the debate could argue that the subject is not controversial, even "highly" controversial. The debates on this subject are limited in number, but very heated, as many talk pages and AfDs show. But "controversial" in the intro definately helps frame the argument into (slightly) more NPOV. Guyanakoolaid 07:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Templates, banners etc

I like the idea of the banner at the top, I suggest you add "You are welcome to join our co-ordinated effort - please simply make yourself known on the talk page" (am about to add it).

Re the template, I am unsue if it works technically. I copied and pasted "stuff", but feel at total liberty to bash it about Fiddle Faddle 10:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

CD Hypothesis intro

I've admired your work on this article. Lots of good points!

But (darn, there's so often a "but") I've reverted the edits you made for style in the intro. Though I respect the attention you gave it, I think the text was cleaner and smoother before.

(I was going to write you that editing for style is something I do professionally and so I trust my judgment on this. But now I've found out you do it professionally too. Well, pleased to meet a colleague!)

In any case, there's one point I hesitate about. You changed "The Controlled-Demolition Hypothesis proposes controversially" to "The Controlled-Demolition Hypothesis is the controversial proposition." Did you do that because a hypothesis is by definition a proposition? That would be a good reason. It seems to me that "The hypothesis proposes" works anyway (like "The theory proposes. . ."). But what do you think?

The line you added about conspiracy theories--"which include the official investigation of the collapses in allegations of a cover-up"--added useful content. But it weighted down the sentence in which it appeared, and perhaps doesn't belong in the intro. Maybe we can find another solution.

Best wishes.

Cordially, O Govinda 10:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that double "by." Definitely right!

O Govinda 11:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I rather like "proposes controversially." (I even like the slightly odd placement of the adverb.) But I'm not stuck on it.

Normally I'd find it hard to stick to working "one sentence at a time," but on edits and reverts between you and me I think that would be fine.

Best wishes.

O Govinda 11:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

So, these examples are wrong?

Interesting...there are at least four examples where Seabhcan has made some rather broad strokes against a country and it's people.--MONGO 13:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing wrong with the fourth. That, in any case, is what I've argued. Given the "part of the problem", "many Americans ..." and "a kind of religious dogma" qualifications, these aren't even especially universal generalizations. In general, I think we should adjust for context, and what Seabhcan means is clearly (in all cases) "the editors working on the article with an apparently American bias". I have never formed a picture in my mind of Seabchan as anti-American or in any way bigotted in that regard. His remarks just display his frustration which he, understanably, traces to certain habits of mind in other editors. Every now and then he generalizes, but few readers would extend these outbursts beyond the contexts in which they were made. Even to take offense at the these remarks (given the sort opposition he's receiving -- from, among others, you) is a bit silly. To take action is, yes, I agree with Abe, a waste of time. Best, as always, --Thomas Basboll 17:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I for one, hope that you stay despite Mongo. ... al Seabhcán bin Baloney (Hows my driving?) 21:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting comments

RE: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Statement_by_User:Thomas_Basboll I really found your comments insightful. You may want to add an edit history to back up you claims, partiularly the biting of the newbie by the admin. Travb (talk) 14:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll put something together.--Thomas Basboll 15:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Not beyond what is already on Talk:Steven E. Jones, which we could conveniently use to talk about the article at a measured pace. Tom Harrison 14:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry for being abrupt. I'm trying to do some work that does not involve Jones, clearing out the speedy deletion backlog. The repeated appearence of the "you have mail" bar is distracting. If you want to talk about my recent edit, I'll watch the talk page, think about what you say, and reply when I get a minute. As we agree, that is what the article talk page is for. Of course, if something urgently requires my attention, please do leave a message on my talk page, or email me. Tom Harrison 14:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Scholars situation

Tom, sorry I haven't gotten back to you - there is a lot going on with the group right now which requires all my time. My efforts were to keep Fetzer's false statements from being propagated on wikipedia. He has already said things like "he removed" Jones, yet has no such authority. The more we can keep from linking to untruths the better. The membership is being informed via email of the situation from Jones' side so there is not a similarly "public" record of it to draw from to keep balance. I agree with deletions wherever possible as lawsuits may emerge and the record on here is permanent. bov 17:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

MONGO's RfA against Seabhcan

Hey. I just wanted to say that i found your comments on the discussion page worthwhile, and felt that you should move them to the front page as official evidence. Tucked away on the discussion page like they are, i think they might be easily missed -- but having shared a similar experience at the hands of MONGO, et al, i would prefer that they be more prominent and noticable. Stone put to sky 07:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

One of your edits got mangled

You recently edited talk:9/11 conspiracy theories#EVIDENCE AND AFTERMATH link, probably within the last hour or two. Unfortunately all that showed up of your edit was your signature, in addition to which the heading following it got mangled. I have repaired the heading, and left your signature there, but you probably will want to repost your comment. Ireneshusband 00:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

911 Conspiracy Theories/Alternative Theories

Why dont we focus on identifying individual points of objection at Talk:9/11_conspiracy_theories#Why_dont_the_Oppose_and_Agree_camps.3F instead of having long winded debates that cover 2 or 3 subjects The we we know everyones objections either way, we can work out a compromise on each point with a view to reaching a consensus. "Snorkel | Talk" 09:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Social Epistemology

Hi- I had been wondering where some of the content on Social Epistemology went since I last looked at it (e.g. the mention of the contemporary philosophers who are still cited at the bottom, but who have been removed). And it looks as though those sections have been moved off of the main page and onto the Talk page under your comment. Was that intentional? As it looks like an error, I'm going to move them back, but let me know. And I'm sure the overall layout could continue to be improved. Regards, CHE 16:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC) Actually, now that I look more carefully, it looks as though you did intend to remove it to fix it up--perhaps to add a third section. But that happened back in early August and it's still on the Talk page. Even if that material was removed to improve it so to speak, it doesn't seem to me wrong--or at least so wrong that it doesn't belong on the main page. Will you restore it? Or I can. Thanks! CHE 16:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

F.Y.I.

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center (3rd). Best wishes, Travb (talk) 23:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

For you

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		for your numerous, and well-written, contributions to articles about 9/11 conspiracy theories. Tom Harrison 00:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Even though we disagree more often than not, you deserve this. Tom Harrison 00:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It's been very interesting so far and I'm learning lots. Thanks for that too. (I'd like to think I contribute mainly to articles about the collapse of the WTC, btw, but I don't object to the characterization. ;-) )--Thomas Basboll 11:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay thanks

I see that now about plus sign at the top of the page here. I wanted to say that I see you have cleaned up the article a lot and it looks much better than it did when I last saw it a week ago.--Beguiled 21:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I was praising you for letting go of your obvious POV that conspiracy theories needed to be more pronounced on Misplaced Pages. Now that you failed to see praise for what is is, I guess we're back to square one. Or is that knowing that there is no way that the article will ever be anything other than a place for those who wish to espouse their version of reality the motivating factor that helped you come to your senses more? I have a lot to add or more specifically, to delete, in my efforts to help wikipedia look like a legitimate encyclopedia rather than a rubbish heap of insanity.--Beguiled 22:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:BITE?

Thomas...remember when you told me that as a newbie editor I had bitten you? Well, the user above is a newbie editor and what I am seeing from you on his talkpage is far worse than anything I dished out to you. Maybe you're right...but none of that exchange is likely to convince him to do as you ask.--MONGO 22:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)