| Revision as of 11:23, 30 July 2021 editBon courage (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users66,175 edits →Edit proposal: r← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:06, 30 July 2021 edit undoMjolnirPants (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers8,624 edits →Edit proposalNext edit → | ||
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| *****Yes, attributing Hall's comment that ''qi'' is imaginary would tend to state a fact as an opinion and thereby violate ] (note though that Ernst 2013 compares ''qi'' to God, and at least to say that God is imaginary would commonly be regarded as an opinion rather than as a fact), but not attributing a comment made by a strongly opinionated source would violate ], and that's why we'd better not use it at all. As for the existing proposals, they are directed not at clouding but at following what the sources are saying, which just are not as plain as you would like them to be. No one is trying to intuit what CRUK is thinking or to represent them as saying something they're not saying. It's rather about trying not to unduly say anything they're not saying, which is core content policy. Really, claiming that phrases like "meridians nor ''qi'' exist as observable natural phenomena" or "neither meridians nor ''qi'' have ever been shown to exist" or "neither meridians nor ''qi'' are scientifically plausible concepts" are {{tq|obfuscating the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community}} (as ] puts it) is quite absurd. They're exactly the kind of thing a scientist would say when speaking for a broad public, and it is indeed what we find in the sources. Saying that they're mythical or imaginary would in many contexts be potentially offensive, as well as less informative, and so they tend to avoid that (as a matter of fact, we are ''also'' supposed to ]). But quite simply, if the sources generally avoid it, we do too. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 09:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC) | *****Yes, attributing Hall's comment that ''qi'' is imaginary would tend to state a fact as an opinion and thereby violate ] (note though that Ernst 2013 compares ''qi'' to God, and at least to say that God is imaginary would commonly be regarded as an opinion rather than as a fact), but not attributing a comment made by a strongly opinionated source would violate ], and that's why we'd better not use it at all. As for the existing proposals, they are directed not at clouding but at following what the sources are saying, which just are not as plain as you would like them to be. No one is trying to intuit what CRUK is thinking or to represent them as saying something they're not saying. It's rather about trying not to unduly say anything they're not saying, which is core content policy. Really, claiming that phrases like "meridians nor ''qi'' exist as observable natural phenomena" or "neither meridians nor ''qi'' have ever been shown to exist" or "neither meridians nor ''qi'' are scientifically plausible concepts" are {{tq|obfuscating the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community}} (as ] puts it) is quite absurd. They're exactly the kind of thing a scientist would say when speaking for a broad public, and it is indeed what we find in the sources. Saying that they're mythical or imaginary would in many contexts be potentially offensive, as well as less informative, and so they tend to avoid that (as a matter of fact, we are ''also'' supposed to ]). But quite simply, if the sources generally avoid it, we do too. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿ ] (] ])</span> 09:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC) | ||
| ******Hall's statements are not "strongly biased" but just factual. Sources don't "avoid" saying qi/meridians don't exist, so neither should Misplaced Pages. We should not avoid plain English statements of fact. Misplaced Pages can say other things, but so long as we also have something like "qi/meridians do not exist" we'll be good. ] (]) 11:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC) | ******Hall's statements are not "strongly biased" but just factual. Sources don't "avoid" saying qi/meridians don't exist, so neither should Misplaced Pages. We should not avoid plain English statements of fact. Misplaced Pages can say other things, but so long as we also have something like "qi/meridians do not exist" we'll be good. ] (]) 11:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC) | ||
| *This arguing about what the sources say is 100% pure pedantry, and flies in the face of ] and ]. It's literally trying to find ways to erode the simple, verifiable statement that neither qi nor meridians exist so as to appease those who refuse to accept reality. There's no benefit to watering down the language, and plenty of problems with it, as it undermines the accuracy of this project. "neither meridians nor ''qi'' exist," is the absolute best way to phrase it. The claims that it doesn't match what the sources say are pure fabrication. No-one here is stupid or confused enough to actually believe that, and none of us were ]. If it offends you that Misplaced Pages should state such a simple, verifiable fact in plain, direct tones, then you should go edit conservapedia, instead. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 13:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
| {{reftalk}} | {{reftalk}} | ||
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 | Equine Shiatsu was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 April 2012 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Shiatsu. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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 | Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience
In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows:
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Nice dogma you got there
"Neither qi nor meridians exist." Lol, I don't get how sh*t like this actually can read on a Misplaced Pages article. A contribution to an encyclopedia should never be based on biased opinions, only neutral facts. No one is qualified to say that "qi doesn't exist", that's like saying that "there was nothing before the big bang". There is no compelling evidence for either of those statements. Both are out of our scope right now. Science is not almighty and all-knowing although humans like to think so, and can't yet acquire information about certain things, but that's just a matter of time. Think about quantum mechanics: nowadays it is a well-known scientific fact that eg. quantum particles exist, but not even a long ago anyone would have called a theory like that "pseudo-/fringe science" and "far out". There's some pretty weird stuff going on on the quantum level which is transforming our conceptions about the world, and findings from quantum physics have already forced science to expand its' borders quite a bit. I see absolutely no reason to believe that science couldn't uncover the mystery of what is called "qi" sometime in the future. Maybe it even has something to do with quantum mechanics... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:14ba:1ffc:9300:4def:39f3:6f98:50d9 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
- New contributions go to the bottom.
- The usual second sentence after "Nice * you got there" is "Would be a pity if something happened to it".
- This page is not a forum, it is for improving the article.
- The only thing qi and quantum mechanics have in common is that many people do not understand them. That is not enough to draw a connection between them. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:05, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Qi and Meridians are unproven to exist, rather than do not exist.
It is a bit unfair to claim that Qi and Meridians do not exist. It should be treated as any other religious based belief that can not be proven. It is neutral to not make a case for one side of the opinion or the other. It would be as wrong to say that Qi and Meridians do exist, as it is to say that they don't exist. Paladin359 (talk) 08:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- e/c Haha, that is like saying we cannot say the earth is round because nobody has proven it not flat yet. This isn't a religion either. Sheesh. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 08:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Furthermore, this talk page came up at the top of my watchlist just now, and I didn't see you edit warring. Naughty. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 08:56, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- The Earth has absolutely been proven to be round. Unlike Qi, you can see the state of the Earth. Qi an incredibly important part of the religion, Taoism. Paladin359 (talk) 09:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, but as our cited sources discuss, proponents want to claim it's scientific too. See for example: Alexbrn (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Something that is claimed to be utilised in medical treatments but “can not be proven” sounds a little pseudoscientific to me. And thanks for that link, Alexbrn, I’ve now wasted some time trying to find the original source for the quotation from Albert Szent-Györgyi (I think it might have been a lecture given in 1972, but can’t find the text of it to confirm). Brunton (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, but as our cited sources discuss, proponents want to claim it's scientific too. See for example: Alexbrn (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Scientific Reasoning
Dear @Roxy the dog:, You reverted my edit on Shiatsu in which I replaced "good" with "scientific" to keep true to the source. I would like to know your reasoning for this decision as "return to last good" isn't an explanation. Thank you. ✯✬✩⛥InterestGather (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- This is a recurrent topic. The problem often expressed about saying "scientific evidence" is that it can imply there are other ways of proving beyond the purview of science. Another problem is that editors will spring up pointing at a crappy journal article on Shitsu saying "look, there is evidence! Misplaced Pages lies". So "no good" covers the bases, and is also technically correct when referencing a secondary source which has sifted the evidence. If readers are really curious they can click the hyperlink for more info. Alexbrn (talk)
- E/C That is so strange. My return to good (it seemed at the time) removed a swathe of the "Timeline" nonsense as well as your edit, and yet the edit history says otherwise. I seems I just replaced the word "scientific" with good. That was deliberate too, as using the word scientific in that sentence implies that there is some evidence, which is not the case. I see that since your edit replacing your wording, another editor has made the same edit as me. -Roxy the happy dog . wooF 15:47, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
"neither qi nor meridians exist"
Claims on Misplaced Pages must be backed by reliable sources. The cited source does not say that qi and meridians are nonexistent. They say that qi is unverifiable and meridians are not supported by evidence. We should also keep in mind that no claim in science is ever considered to have absolute certainty, only support or lack of support. I have updated the article to be more accurate to the source. Also I should note that the Accupressure article goes into more detail regarding meridians and we don't need to be duplicating it. The sources cited for this blurb do not apply to Shiatsu specifically but Chinese traditional medicine in general. MarshallKe (talk) 13:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have restored the article to the good version before your edit, per the source, which says "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Do you notice that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." is not synonymous with "neither qi nor meridians exist"? MarshallKe (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- ... and you are pointing this out because? -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Do you notice that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." is not synonymous with "neither qi nor meridians exist"? MarshallKe (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- The status quo text is a good summary of the cited sources, and the content is necessary for a NPOV. MarshallKe, now edit warring, has been alerted to the WP:Discretionary sanctions in place for this topic area. Alexbrn (talk) 15:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- The "status quo" text is a not at all a summary of the cited sources and is obviously POV and inconsistent with both NPOV and the cited article. MarshallKe (talk) 16:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Qi is a myth. For WP:PSCI policy reasons we need to be upfront about that. Alexbrn (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- I agree. In order to best be upfront about pseudoscience, we should demonstrate that science has studied the topic and found no evidence for it. This is what my edit does. MarshallKe (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Qi is a myth. For WP:PSCI policy reasons we need to be upfront about that. Alexbrn (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- The SBM source says,
Acupuncture meridians and acupoints are imaginary until proven otherwise.
The Ernst source says,Concepts such as the qi of Chinese traditional medicine are myths
Are you saying that "imaginary" and "myth" do not imply "does not exist"? --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)- The Ernst source later says "the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven". Would you say that the source conflicts with itself? MarshallKe (talk) 16:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- No. That's true of things many quasi-religious things that don't exist, like faith healing powers e.g. Alexbrn (talk) 16:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Neither can the existence of Russell's teapot, which doesn't exist either. So what? That quote is inconsequential. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- We can discuss epistemology all day, but what really matters here is that we don't misrepresent the WP:RS material. I'm starting to think it's simply time to escalate this to WP:DR as we are unable to agree on what the source says. MarshallKe (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- The Ernst source later says "the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven". Would you say that the source conflicts with itself? MarshallKe (talk) 16:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- The SBM source says,
- As a gesture of good faith, I'd like to share that I personally strongly suspect accupuncture and most of Chinese traditional medicine to be quackery. I scheduled a massage the other day and I discovered that the therapist was an accupuncture/pressure/Chinese traditional medicine practitioner. The things she was trying to get me to believe came across as some of the most quack stuff I've ever heard. We need to promote scientific skepticism, and the way to do that is to promote the scientific method and discourage making claims that can't be proven. Negative claims such as "qi does not exist" is itself, a claim that cannot be proven. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, regardless of whether it is a negative claim or a positive claim, and a Proof of impossibility is an extremely high standard that is usually not achievable outside the realm of mathematics.
- WP:FRINGE is not a blank check to make unproven negative claims against pseudoscientific topics. It is an obligation to hold accepted scientific sources in higher regard than nonscientific sources. We must not fall into the same trap as pseudoscience believers by making unproven claims. We must adhere to the principles of science and faithfully paraphrase the scientific sources, which I have done, which has been reverted now in favor of text that reads as a dogmatistic fundamentalistic afterthought and misleads the reader into thinking that science operates in the same way as a religion. MarshallKe (talk) 17:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- If you believe WP:FRINGE is misapplied, raise a query at WP:FT/N for more input. Alexbrn (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm under the impression noticeboards are for urgent matters and that for matters that are worth waiting for, WP:RFC is preferable. Also, the policy involved here is WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, not WP:FRINGE, as I am not looking to add information with the intention of promoting a fringe view but rather I am looking to delete a claim that does not exist in the source in favor of faithfully interpreting that source. MarshallKe (talk) 19:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- No, only a couple of noticeboard are for urgent matters (e.g. ANI). The question you raise is about WP:FRINGE concepts and FRINGE is part of NPOV. Launching an RfC without adequate WP:RFCBEFORE could be seen as disruptive, especially since it would seem you'd be better off dropping the WP:STICK. 06:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm under the impression noticeboards are for urgent matters and that for matters that are worth waiting for, WP:RFC is preferable. Also, the policy involved here is WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, not WP:FRINGE, as I am not looking to add information with the intention of promoting a fringe view but rather I am looking to delete a claim that does not exist in the source in favor of faithfully interpreting that source. MarshallKe (talk) 19:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- If you believe WP:FRINGE is misapplied, raise a query at WP:FT/N for more input. Alexbrn (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- The sources seem to say its a myth, so so do we.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Is there any doubt within the relevant scientific community about this? If yes, report it. If no, we can state it in Wikivoice, because that would be an appropriate encyclopedic summary of available sources. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- This discussion now has a post on the Fringe theories noticeboard MarshallKe (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Alexbrn thinks that using the phrase "their existence can neither be proved nor disproved" is plagiarism, and that reverting to the non-neutral blanket statement that's not supported by the cited sources is better. This is the power that the FRINGE guys have over neutrality, in the name in science. It needn't be that way. Truth and verifiability can coexist. Dicklyon (talk) 19:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Please do not copy portions of text from copyrighted sources into Misplaced Pages. Also note WP:V is policy, so original editorial comments are not a good idea either. Alexbrn (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- Dicklyon, I think the plagiarism accusation and editorial comment accusations above are merely asides. Even if you hadn't made those mistakes, your edit would still have been reverted by Alexbrn and Roxy the dog. The main argument they're riding on is that the word "myth" is synonymous with "does not exist" and that because of Christopher Hitchens' razor, that claims can be decreed as patently false just because they are unprovable. I think both of these border on WP:SYNTH. MarshallKe (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
- I know. For the same reason we don't state "God does not exist", we should stick to statements that are supported by sources that are neutral enough to allow some diversity of belief. Similarly, the statement that "There is no good evidence that shiatsu is an effective medical treatment" oversteps that statement in the cited source, that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease". This builds in the POV assumptions that only things that prevent or cure a disease are effective medical treatments, and that the only good evidence is "scientific" evidence. I understand that the FRINGE/MEDRS crowd has empowered themselves to run WP this way, to not let it contain any neutral coverage of alternatives to the so-called evidenced-based western medicine. It's a good thing they don't exercise similar control over WP's treatment of religions and philosophies and politics and such, which would pretty much all have to be labeled as "no good evidence for". Instead, we just neutrally describe what they are, drawing on reliable sources with multiple points of view. Shiatsu is a thing; we ought to be able to describe it without taking a strong POV position against it. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I saw this on WP:AN3; is the dispute really over whether "meridians" (A) are imaginary, or (B) do not exist? We are edit warring over "imaginary" vs. "do not exist"? Is there a more serious issue that I should investigate? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Pretty much that. More particularly, if a source claims they are "imaginary", can we state in WP's voice that they "do not exist"? No, that's one POV, but the article should adopt a more neutral POV. It would be OK to say that western medical researchers can find no evidence for these things (i.e. attribute the POV), and things like that, being careful not to extrapolate beyond what's in the source. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see a substantial difference between "imaginary" and "do not exist"; if one can get consensus and the other cannot you should just go with it. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- If one can get consensus and the other cannot, that's the difference. It's not clear that stating in WP's voice that they're "imaginary" is going to get consensus, though, so maybe they're the same. But yet let's seek a phrasing that can get consensus. Probably attributing the assessment would help. Dicklyon (talk) 05:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see a substantial difference between "imaginary" and "do not exist"; if one can get consensus and the other cannot you should just go with it. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Any statement to the effect that the existence of meridians/qi "can neither be proved nor disproved" is facilely incorrect and does not belong in Misplaced Pages any more than we would say such a statement for fairies or ghosts or any other of a number of other fantastical claims. Where people have made empirical arguments that meridians/qi can be observed, their evidence has been lacking. To the extent that some claim you cannot observe the phenomenon that means that the claim has left the realm of empirical reality and stating jejune commentary over "proof or disproof" is something best left for your personal blogs. jps (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Does WP contains statements asserting the nonexistence of fairies? or ghosts, spirits, souls, angels, miracles, gods? Maybe, but I haven't noticed them. I'm not saying I believe any of these things are "real", but I don't think you or I get to decide that WP should take that position when plenty of people and sources have other POVs on these topics. Dicklyon (talk) 03:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- We follow the sources and observe NPOV. And it's best to say it plain and simple without deviating from the source. As to Misplaced Pages "taking a position", well yes - it does take a position on such matters by aligning with respectable rational sources and contextualizing fringe claims thusly. Alexbrn (talk) 05:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Does WP contains statements asserting the nonexistence of fairies?
Wrong question. Better questions, "Does WP contains statements asserting that the existence of fairies can neither be proved nor disproved?" FTFY. It doesn't matter whether "plenty of people" think anything. Surveying the beliefs of plenty of people is not how we decide whether we WP:ASSERT a thing or say it's just, like, your opinion, man. jps (talk) 11:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)- Articles on mythical topics like qi and fairies should contain neither an assertion that they do not exist, nor an assertion that they can't be proven. If scientific studies exist on the topic, the outcomes of the studies should be described. If the topic is not able to be studied by science, then there should no statement at all. Considering that there have been studies looking for meridians and there have been no studies looking for the mythical qi, I propose that the line be changed to omit qi and simply say "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of meridians". MarshallKe (talk) 12:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Qi and fairies are different in that there aren't numerous journal articles, practitioners, etc. asserting that fairies are real, a legitimate subject of scientific work, and a route to medically effective treatments. Like our sources, Misplaced Pages needs to be plain that these things are really not real. Alexbrn (talk) 12:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- No. Misplaced Pages should identify and be biased toward reliable scientific sources, and articles should faithfully reflect those sources. Misplaced Pages is not a place for advocacy. Fear of pseudoscientific beliefs in the world should not cloud our duty to uphold Misplaced Pages's policies. MarshallKe (talk) 12:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Articles on mythical topics like qi and fairies should contain neither an assertion that they do not exist....
Why shouldn't we have assertions of non-existence? We have reliable sources which make it clear that these things do not exist as typically argued, and it is fair to be up front about that. Of course, there are ways to do this that do not involve beating a reader over the head with clunkiness of wording. I'm reminded of all the times I cringe when the adjective "false" is inserted into news-stories about some inane thing the 45th President of the United States said, but occasionally there is nothing for it but to be up front. More to the point, the sources we have which indicate clearly that meridians and qi do not exist always do so in the context of claims that there is physiological or anatomical evidence of such. The claims of practitioners that they can "see" these things with third eyes or reiki or whatever other vaguely empirical argument are the contexts where, "Yeah, not really." needs to be explained so that readers are not confused. This can be done through simple David Hume-esque "Of Miracles" style which does not pass judgment on the believer but simply points out that within the phenomenology of "things known" that have observable effects, such things do not exist. Blunt statements can be jarring, but that is no reason to enact a prohibition on being honest to our readers. jps (talk) 12:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Qi and fairies are different in that there aren't numerous journal articles, practitioners, etc. asserting that fairies are real, a legitimate subject of scientific work, and a route to medically effective treatments. Like our sources, Misplaced Pages needs to be plain that these things are really not real. Alexbrn (talk) 12:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Articles on mythical topics like qi and fairies should contain neither an assertion that they do not exist, nor an assertion that they can't be proven. If scientific studies exist on the topic, the outcomes of the studies should be described. If the topic is not able to be studied by science, then there should no statement at all. Considering that there have been studies looking for meridians and there have been no studies looking for the mythical qi, I propose that the line be changed to omit qi and simply say "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of meridians". MarshallKe (talk) 12:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- And just to wear out my welcome a little more, the statement "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of meridians" is one I certainly can get behind, but it also doesn't fully capture the ontology of the way meridians or qi are argued in the context of alternative medicine. There are some who argue that meridians or qi do exist but that science just needs to "catch up". This is a profoundly incorrect assertion. Part of the reason that the existence of meridians is deprecated is that we have an understanding of physical, chemical, biological, and medical phenomena which do not permit the sort of mechanism described. You can have your psychosomatic effects and your placebos, but this is not the argument made in favor of meridians. jps (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Blunt statements are fine and statements of nonexistence are fine, as long as those statements are supported by the source. The source does not make it clear that qi does not exist despite what some editors would wish it to say. We just don't agree on what the source says. MarshallKe (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- We have reliable sources which make the point more bluntly. E.g. . What we do not want to get into here is WP:CHEESE territory or an argument over ontology as I intimate on your talkpage. There really is no debate in the most reliable sources that we have which consider the question as to whether there is room in the natural world for these claims. You can reimagine them in the realm of metaphor or mythology or faith if you prefer, but that is not the substance of the editorial remit we are discussing here. jps (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- This seems like gaslighting. As everyone is telling you, something that's stated to be mythical/imaginary simply doesn't exist. We have a good fair summary. If you want to add something like "and as such qi is not amenable to scientific investigation" that's fine, but it seems banal & unnecessary. Alexbrn (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- The actual question seems to be: since there are several flavors of nonexistence, from lie via fake news, disinformation, fairy tale, myth, legend, misunderstanding, rookie mistake, ignorance, and obsolete idea to measurement error, do we need to fastidiously copy the exact same flavors named by the sources? It would certainly save time, since complaints are easier rejected. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I concur with jps here. Zooming in upon cherry-picked turns of phrase in order to justify a higher level of plausibility than the science actually supports is not the way to write good encyclopedia material. XOR'easter (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- This seems like gaslighting. As everyone is telling you, something that's stated to be mythical/imaginary simply doesn't exist. We have a good fair summary. If you want to add something like "and as such qi is not amenable to scientific investigation" that's fine, but it seems banal & unnecessary. Alexbrn (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- We have reliable sources which make the point more bluntly. E.g. . What we do not want to get into here is WP:CHEESE territory or an argument over ontology as I intimate on your talkpage. There really is no debate in the most reliable sources that we have which consider the question as to whether there is room in the natural world for these claims. You can reimagine them in the realm of metaphor or mythology or faith if you prefer, but that is not the substance of the editorial remit we are discussing here. jps (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Blunt statements are fine and statements of nonexistence are fine, as long as those statements are supported by the source. The source does not make it clear that qi does not exist despite what some editors would wish it to say. We just don't agree on what the source says. MarshallKe (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- And just to wear out my welcome a little more, the statement "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of meridians" is one I certainly can get behind, but it also doesn't fully capture the ontology of the way meridians or qi are argued in the context of alternative medicine. There are some who argue that meridians or qi do exist but that science just needs to "catch up". This is a profoundly incorrect assertion. Part of the reason that the existence of meridians is deprecated is that we have an understanding of physical, chemical, biological, and medical phenomena which do not permit the sort of mechanism described. You can have your psychosomatic effects and your placebos, but this is not the argument made in favor of meridians. jps (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
A thread has been opened since some time at the fringe theories noticeboard. Is there a reason why this is still being discussed here rather than there? Anyway, I have put up a proposal there, so I would like to invite comments on that. If it is preferred I put up my proposal here, I can copy it –just let me know. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 02:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Edit proposal
A number of editors here agreed on the wording (not necessarily the sources) below. I have skimmed through a number of sources, but found that the ones already cited in the article worked well enough (better sources could and should certainly be found, but for now these should suffice). Comments are welcome! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 02:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
The practice of shiatsu is based on the traditional Chinese concept of qi, which is sometimes described as an "energy flow". This energy flow is supposed to be channeled through certain pathways in the human body, known as meridians, thus causing a variety of effects. Despite the fact that many practitioners use these ideas in explaining shiatsu, neither meridians nor qi exist as observable natural phenomena.
- I think it's too high-brow in the wording. I would greatly prefer "neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist," or "neither meridians nor qi are known to exist," or "neither meridians nor qi exist." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Editors at FTN did not "agree" that wording. It seems a bit wordy and has WP:V issues. I'd go with the 3rd wording suggested by MjolnirPants ("neither meridians nor qi exist") for specifically addressing the nature of meridians/qi. Of course more can be said about other aspects of Shiatsu. Alexbrn (talk) 04:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Jps and I "agree on the content". PaleoNeonate found a slightly earlier non-copy-edited version "rather fair", and XOR'easter found that earlier version "a little wordy, but not unforgivably so". No one else commented or objected. It's more than fair to say that four editors 'agreed' here, though that doesn't imply that consensus has been reached, as we can always start disagreeing ;-). I agree that
exist as observable natural phenomena
is using a rather formal wording that is not present in the source, but MjolnirPants'neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist
is already much closer.Neither meridians nor qi exist
, on the other hand, is the furthest from the source of all four options on the table: Ernst 2013 explicitly treats of these concepts in terms of their empirical verifiability, saying that qi is unverifiable and that meridians are verifiable but have not actually been verified. As a fifth alternative, Ernst 2019, p. 193 hasThese are philosophical concepts at best but lack scientific and biological plausibility
, which we might perhaps paraphrase withneither meridians nor qi are scientifically plausible concepts
. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 05:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)- It's closest to the sources. So long as we capture the "mythical", "imaginary" properties (=does not exist) without obfuscation all will be good. The SBM source should stay too. Alexbrn (talk) 05:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Harriet Hall in the SBM article writes that
acupuncture meridians and acupoints are imaginary until proven otherwise
. However, Hall clearly is an opinionated source, which would necessitate us to hedge this with something like "According to the physician and skeptic Harriet Hall, ...". But that is clearly undesirable here, since it would have the opposite effect from the one we intend (i.e., conveying that not only according to skeptics, but according to the scientific community at large these concepts have no credibility). Edzard Ernst 2013 does call qi a myth, but this doesn't summarize his argument, which revolves around the unverifiability of the concept (comparing it to God and to Russell's teapot): the argument every time is that these concepts either cannot or have not been shown to exist, and it would tendentious to reduce this to "mythical", "imaginary", "does not exist", etc. In any case, other non-opinionated sources like the Cancer Research UK or Ernst 2019 do not use such words at all, which makes it clear that it would be undue for us to do so in this context. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 07:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)- Science-Based Medicine is a very good source for fringe medicine and Hall's comment must not be attributed, but asserted in line with WP:YESPOV (there is no doubt over the statement that meridians are imaginary). It's true that the myth aspect does not "summarize" Ernst's entire commentary, but it is a key aspect and we need to relay it prominently to satisfy WP:PSCI. It seems to be the upshot of these various proposals are to cloud a matter which should be as plain in Misplaced Pages as it is in the sources. We cannot intuit what CRUK thinks about the mythical nature of qi from what it does not say. Alexbrn (talk) 07:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, attributing Hall's comment that qi is imaginary would tend to state a fact as an opinion and thereby violate WP:YESPOV (note though that Ernst 2013 compares qi to God, and at least to say that God is imaginary would commonly be regarded as an opinion rather than as a fact), but not attributing a comment made by a strongly opinionated source would violate WP:BIASED, and that's why we'd better not use it at all. As for the existing proposals, they are directed not at clouding but at following what the sources are saying, which just are not as plain as you would like them to be. No one is trying to intuit what CRUK is thinking or to represent them as saying something they're not saying. It's rather about trying not to unduly say anything they're not saying, which is core content policy. Really, claiming that phrases like "meridians nor qi exist as observable natural phenomena" or "neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist" or "neither meridians nor qi are scientifically plausible concepts" are
obfuscating the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community
(as WP:PSCI puts it) is quite absurd. They're exactly the kind of thing a scientist would say when speaking for a broad public, and it is indeed what we find in the sources. Saying that they're mythical or imaginary would in many contexts be potentially offensive, as well as less informative, and so they tend to avoid that (as a matter of fact, we are also supposed to prefer nonjudgmental language and to avoid disparaging our subject). But quite simply, if the sources generally avoid it, we do too. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 09:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)- Hall's statements are not "strongly biased" but just factual. Sources don't "avoid" saying qi/meridians don't exist, so neither should Misplaced Pages. We should not avoid plain English statements of fact. Misplaced Pages can say other things, but so long as we also have something like "qi/meridians do not exist" we'll be good. Alexbrn (talk) 11:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, attributing Hall's comment that qi is imaginary would tend to state a fact as an opinion and thereby violate WP:YESPOV (note though that Ernst 2013 compares qi to God, and at least to say that God is imaginary would commonly be regarded as an opinion rather than as a fact), but not attributing a comment made by a strongly opinionated source would violate WP:BIASED, and that's why we'd better not use it at all. As for the existing proposals, they are directed not at clouding but at following what the sources are saying, which just are not as plain as you would like them to be. No one is trying to intuit what CRUK is thinking or to represent them as saying something they're not saying. It's rather about trying not to unduly say anything they're not saying, which is core content policy. Really, claiming that phrases like "meridians nor qi exist as observable natural phenomena" or "neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist" or "neither meridians nor qi are scientifically plausible concepts" are
- Science-Based Medicine is a very good source for fringe medicine and Hall's comment must not be attributed, but asserted in line with WP:YESPOV (there is no doubt over the statement that meridians are imaginary). It's true that the myth aspect does not "summarize" Ernst's entire commentary, but it is a key aspect and we need to relay it prominently to satisfy WP:PSCI. It seems to be the upshot of these various proposals are to cloud a matter which should be as plain in Misplaced Pages as it is in the sources. We cannot intuit what CRUK thinks about the mythical nature of qi from what it does not say. Alexbrn (talk) 07:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Harriet Hall in the SBM article writes that
- It's closest to the sources. So long as we capture the "mythical", "imaginary" properties (=does not exist) without obfuscation all will be good. The SBM source should stay too. Alexbrn (talk) 05:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- This arguing about what the sources say is 100% pure pedantry, and flies in the face of WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:YESPOV. It's literally trying to find ways to erode the simple, verifiable statement that neither qi nor meridians exist so as to appease those who refuse to accept reality. There's no benefit to watering down the language, and plenty of problems with it, as it undermines the accuracy of this project. "neither meridians nor qi exist," is the absolute best way to phrase it. The claims that it doesn't match what the sources say are pure fabrication. No-one here is stupid or confused enough to actually believe that, and none of us were born yesterday. If it offends you that Misplaced Pages should state such a simple, verifiable fact in plain, direct tones, then you should go edit conservapedia, instead. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Shiatsu". Cancer Research UK. 13 December 2018.
- E.g., Beresford-Cooke, Carola (2003). Shiatsu Theory and Practice: A Comprehensive Text for the Student and Professional. Churchill Livingstone. ISBN 9780443070594. pp. 1–2.
- Ernst E (2013). Healing, Hype or Harm?: A Critical Analysis of Complementary or Alternative Medicine. Andrews UK Limited. p. 203. ISBN 978-1-84540-712-4.
Regal
The joys of full-protection... I'll come back to this later then. Shiatsu has a brief mention put in context in Regal's Pseudoscience - A critical encyclopedia's "Alternative medicine" section. It could be used to add a little more context in this article's "description", possibly also to mention that it's listed in this encyclopedia, that might support the pseudoscientific mention (that currently lacks any citations). —PaleoNeonate – 16:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have added it to the article. We probably need a better source though, since Regal does not have a separate entry on Shiatsu (he barely mentions it in the passing without any analysis or further comment), and does not directly call it pseudoscience. That we do need a good source on this is made clear by the fact that while looking for sources, I found both a practitioner's handbook published by Elsevier and one published by Springer, both very well respected STM publishers. Not normally being involved with this kind of thing, I guess I kind of forgot how bad it really is. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- All unassessed articles
- C-Class Alternative medicine articles
- C-Class Japan-related articles
- Mid-importance Japan-related articles
- WikiProject Japan articles
- C-Class Skepticism articles
- Mid-importance Skepticism articles
- WikiProject Skepticism articles
- C-Class medicine articles
- Low-importance medicine articles
- All WikiProject Medicine pages
- Pseudoscience articles under contentious topics procedure