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Equine Shiatsu was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 April 2012 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Shiatsu. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Qi and Meridians are unproven to exist, rather than do not exist.

It is a bit unfair to claim that Qi and Meridians do not exist. It should be treated as any other religious based belief that can not be proven. It is neutral to not make a case for one side of the opinion or the other. It would be as wrong to say that Qi and Meridians do exist, as it is to say that they don't exist. Paladin359 (talk) 08:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

e/c Haha, that is like saying we cannot say the earth is round because nobody has proven it not flat yet. This isn't a religion either. Sheesh. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 08:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Furthermore, this talk page came up at the top of my watchlist just now, and I didn't see you edit warring. Naughty. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 08:56, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

The Earth has absolutely been proven to be round. Unlike Qi, you can see the state of the Earth. Qi an incredibly important part of the religion, Taoism. Paladin359 (talk) 09:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but as our cited sources discuss, proponents want to claim it's scientific too. See for example: Alexbrn (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Something that is claimed to be utilised in medical treatments but “can not be proven” sounds a little pseudoscientific to me. And thanks for that link, Alexbrn, I’ve now wasted some time trying to find the original source for the quotation from Albert Szent-Györgyi (I think it might have been a lecture given in 1972, but can’t find the text of it to confirm). Brunton (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Scientific Reasoning

Dear @Roxy the dog:, You reverted my edit on Shiatsu in which I replaced "good" with "scientific" to keep true to the source. I would like to know your reasoning for this decision as "return to last good" isn't an explanation. Thank you. ✯✬✩⛥InterestGather (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

This is a recurrent topic. The problem often expressed about saying "scientific evidence" is that it can imply there are other ways of proving beyond the purview of science. Another problem is that editors will spring up pointing at a crappy journal article on Shitsu saying "look, there is evidence! Misplaced Pages lies". So "no good" covers the bases, and is also technically correct when referencing a secondary source which has sifted the evidence. If readers are really curious they can click the hyperlink for more info. Alexbrn (talk)

E/C That is so strange. My return to good (it seemed at the time) removed a swathe of the "Timeline" nonsense as well as your edit, and yet the edit history says otherwise. I seems I just replaced the word "scientific" with good. That was deliberate too, as using the word scientific in that sentence implies that there is some evidence, which is not the case. I see that since your edit replacing your wording, another editor has made the same edit as me. -Roxy the happy dog . wooF 15:47, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

"neither qi nor meridians exist"

Claims on Misplaced Pages must be backed by reliable sources. The cited source does not say that qi and meridians are nonexistent. They say that qi is unverifiable and meridians are not supported by evidence. We should also keep in mind that no claim in science is ever considered to have absolute certainty, only support or lack of support. I have updated the article to be more accurate to the source. Also I should note that the Accupressure article goes into more detail regarding meridians and we don't need to be duplicating it. The sources cited for this blurb do not apply to Shiatsu specifically but Chinese traditional medicine in general. MarshallKe (talk) 13:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I have restored the article to the good version before your edit, per the source, which says "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:24, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you notice that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease, including cancer." is not synonymous with "neither qi nor meridians exist"? MarshallKe (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

... and you are pointing this out because? -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• The status quo text is a good summary of the cited sources, and the content is necessary for a NPOV. MarshallKe, now edit warring, has been alerted to the WP:Discretionary sanctions in place for this topic area. Alexbrn (talk) 15:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The "status quo" text is a not at all a summary of the cited sources and is obviously POV and inconsistent with both NPOV and the cited article. MarshallKe (talk) 16:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Qi is a myth. For WP:PSCI policy reasons we need to be upfront about that. Alexbrn (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. In order to best be upfront about pseudoscience, we should demonstrate that science has studied the topic and found no evidence for it. This is what my edit does. MarshallKe (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The SBM source says, Acupuncture meridians and acupoints are imaginary until proven otherwise. The Ernst source says, Concepts such as the qi of Chinese traditional medicine are myths Are you saying that "imaginary" and "myth" do not imply "does not exist"? --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:10, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The Ernst source later says "the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven". Would you say that the source conflicts with itself? MarshallKe (talk) 16:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

No. That's true of things many quasi-religious things that don't exist, like faith healing powers e.g. Alexbrn (talk) 16:47, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Neither can the existence of Russell's teapot, which doesn't exist either. So what? That quote is inconsequential. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

We can discuss epistemology all day, but what really matters here is that we don't misrepresent the WP:RS material. I'm starting to think it's simply time to escalate this to WP:DR as we are unable to agree on what the source says. MarshallKe (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• As a gesture of good faith, I'd like to share that I personally strongly suspect accupuncture and most of Chinese traditional medicine to be quackery. I scheduled a massage the other day and I discovered that the therapist was an accupuncture/pressure/Chinese traditional medicine practitioner. The things she was trying to get me to believe came across as some of the most quack stuff I've ever heard. We need to promote scientific skepticism, and the way to do that is to promote the scientific method and discourage making claims that can't be proven. Negative claims such as "qi does not exist" is itself, a claim that cannot be proven. The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, regardless of whether it is a negative claim or a positive claim, and a Proof of impossibility is an extremely high standard that is usually not achievable outside the realm of mathematics.

WP:FRINGE is not a blank check to make unproven negative claims against pseudoscientific topics. It is an obligation to hold accepted scientific sources in higher regard than nonscientific sources. We must not fall into the same trap as pseudoscience believers by making unproven claims. We must adhere to the principles of science and faithfully paraphrase the scientific sources, which I have done, which has been reverted now in favor of text that reads as a dogmatistic fundamentalistic afterthought and misleads the reader into thinking that science operates in the same way as a religion. MarshallKe (talk) 17:57, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

If you believe WP:FRINGE is misapplied, raise a query at WP:FT/N for more input. Alexbrn (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm under the impression noticeboards are for urgent matters and that for matters that are worth waiting for, WP:RFC is preferable. Also, the policy involved here is WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, not WP:FRINGE, as I am not looking to add information with the intention of promoting a fringe view but rather I am looking to delete a claim that does not exist in the source in favor of faithfully interpreting that source. MarshallKe (talk) 19:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

No, only a couple of noticeboard are for urgent matters (e.g. ANI). The question you raise is about WP:FRINGE concepts and FRINGE is part of NPOV. Launching an RfC without adequate WP:RFCBEFORE could be seen as disruptive, especially since it would seem you'd be better off dropping the WP:STICK. 06:47, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The sources seem to say its a myth, so so do we.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Is there any doubt within the relevant scientific community about this? If yes, report it. If no, we can state it in Wikivoice, because that would be an appropriate encyclopedic summary of available sources. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• This discussion now has a post on the Fringe theories noticeboard MarshallKe (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Alexbrn thinks that using the phrase "their existence can neither be proved nor disproved" is plagiarism, and that reverting to the non-neutral blanket statement that's not supported by the cited sources is better. This is the power that the FRINGE guys have over neutrality, in the name in science. It needn't be that way. Truth and verifiability can coexist. Dicklyon (talk) 19:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Please do not copy portions of text from copyrighted sources into Misplaced Pages. Also note WP:V is policy, so original editorial comments are not a good idea either. Alexbrn (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Dicklyon, I think the plagiarism accusation and editorial comment accusations above are merely asides. Even if you hadn't made those mistakes, your edit would still have been reverted by Alexbrn and Roxy the dog. The main argument they're riding on is that the word "myth" is synonymous with "does not exist" and that because of Christopher Hitchens' razor, that claims can be decreed as patently false just because they are unprovable. I think both of these border on WP:SYNTH. MarshallKe (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I know. For the same reason we don't state "God does not exist", we should stick to statements that are supported by sources that are neutral enough to allow some diversity of belief. Similarly, the statement that "There is no good evidence that shiatsu is an effective medical treatment" oversteps that statement in the cited source, that "There is no scientific evidence that shiatsu can cure or prevent any type of disease". This builds in the POV assumptions that only things that prevent or cure a disease are effective medical treatments, and that the only good evidence is "scientific" evidence. I understand that the FRINGE/MEDRS crowd has empowered themselves to run WP this way, to not let it contain any neutral coverage of alternatives to the so-called evidenced-based western medicine. It's a good thing they don't exercise similar control over WP's treatment of religions and philosophies and politics and such, which would pretty much all have to be labeled as "no good evidence for". Instead, we just neutrally describe what they are, drawing on reliable sources with multiple points of view. Shiatsu is a thing; we ought to be able to describe it without taking a strong POV position against it. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I saw this on WP:AN3; is the dispute really over whether "meridians" (A) are imaginary, or (B) do not exist? We are edit warring over "imaginary" vs. "do not exist"? Is there a more serious issue that I should investigate? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Pretty much that. More particularly, if a source claims they are "imaginary", can we state in WP's voice that they "do not exist"? No, that's one POV, but the article should adopt a more neutral POV. It would be OK to say that western medical researchers can find no evidence for these things (i.e. attribute the POV), and things like that, being careful not to extrapolate beyond what's in the source. Dicklyon (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a substantial difference between "imaginary" and "do not exist"; if one can get consensus and the other cannot you should just go with it. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

If one can get consensus and the other cannot, that's the difference. It's not clear that stating in WP's voice that they're "imaginary" is going to get consensus, though, so maybe they're the same. But yet let's seek a phrasing that can get consensus. Probably attributing the assessment would help. Dicklyon (talk) 05:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Any statement to the effect that the existence of meridians/qi "can neither be proved nor disproved" is facilely incorrect and does not belong in Misplaced Pages any more than we would say such a statement for fairies or ghosts or any other of a number of other fantastical claims. Where people have made empirical arguments that meridians/qi can be observed, their evidence has been lacking. To the extent that some claim you cannot observe the phenomenon that means that the claim has left the realm of empirical reality and stating jejune commentary over "proof or disproof" is something best left for your personal blogs. jps (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Does WP contains statements asserting the nonexistence of fairies? or ghosts, spirits, souls, angels, miracles, gods? Maybe, but I haven't noticed them. I'm not saying I believe any of these things are "real", but I don't think you or I get to decide that WP should take that position when plenty of people and sources have other POVs on these topics. Dicklyon (talk) 03:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

We follow the sources and observe NPOV. And it's best to say it plain and simple without deviating from the source. As to Misplaced Pages "taking a position", well yes - it does take a position on such matters by aligning with respectable rational sources and contextualizing fringe claims thusly. Alexbrn (talk) 05:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Does WP contains statements asserting the nonexistence of fairies? Wrong question. Better questions, "Does WP contains statements asserting that the existence of fairies can neither be proved nor disproved?" FTFY. It doesn't matter whether "plenty of people" think anything. Surveying the beliefs of plenty of people is not how we decide whether we WP:ASSERT a thing or say it's just, like, your opinion, man. jps (talk) 11:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Articles on mythical topics like qi and fairies should contain neither an assertion that they do not exist, nor an assertion that they can't be proven. If scientific studies exist on the topic, the outcomes of the studies should be described. If the topic is not able to be studied by science, then there should no statement at all. Considering that there have been studies looking for meridians and there have been no studies looking for the mythical qi, I propose that the line be changed to omit qi and simply say "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of meridians". MarshallKe (talk) 12:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Qi and fairies are different in that there aren't numerous journal articles, practitioners, etc. asserting that fairies are real, a legitimate subject of scientific work, and a route to medically effective treatments. Like our sources, Misplaced Pages needs to be plain that these things are really not real. Alexbrn (talk) 12:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

No. Misplaced Pages should identify and be biased toward reliable scientific sources, and articles should faithfully reflect those sources. Misplaced Pages is not a place for advocacy. Fear of pseudoscientific beliefs in the world should not cloud our duty to uphold Misplaced Pages's policies. MarshallKe (talk) 12:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Articles on mythical topics like qi and fairies should contain neither an assertion that they do not exist.... Why shouldn't we have assertions of non-existence? We have reliable sources which make it clear that these things do not exist as typically argued, and it is fair to be up front about that. Of course, there are ways to do this that do not involve beating a reader over the head with clunkiness of wording. I'm reminded of all the times I cringe when the adjective "false" is inserted into news-stories about some inane thing the 45th President of the United States said, but occasionally there is nothing for it but to be up front. More to the point, the sources we have which indicate clearly that meridians and qi do not exist always do so in the context of claims that there is physiological or anatomical evidence of such. The claims of practitioners that they can "see" these things with third eyes or reiki or whatever other vaguely empirical argument are the contexts where, "Yeah, not really." needs to be explained so that readers are not confused. This can be done through simple David Hume-esque "Of Miracles" style which does not pass judgment on the believer but simply points out that within the phenomenology of "things known" that have observable effects, such things do not exist. Blunt statements can be jarring, but that is no reason to enact a prohibition on being honest to our readers. jps (talk) 12:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

And just to wear out my welcome a little more, the statement "There is no scientific evidence for the existence of meridians" is one I certainly can get behind, but it also doesn't fully capture the ontology of the way meridians or qi are argued in the context of alternative medicine. There are some who argue that meridians or qi do exist but that science just needs to "catch up". This is a profoundly incorrect assertion. Part of the reason that the existence of meridians is deprecated is that we have an understanding of physical, chemical, biological, and medical phenomena which do not permit the sort of mechanism described. You can have your psychosomatic effects and your placebos, but this is not the argument made in favor of meridians. jps (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Blunt statements are fine and statements of nonexistence are fine, as long as those statements are supported by the source. The source does not make it clear that qi does not exist despite what some editors would wish it to say. We just don't agree on what the source says. MarshallKe (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

We have reliable sources which make the point more bluntly. E.g. . What we do not want to get into here is WP:CHEESE territory or an argument over ontology as I intimate on your talkpage. There really is no debate in the most reliable sources that we have which consider the question as to whether there is room in the natural world for these claims. You can reimagine them in the realm of metaphor or mythology or faith if you prefer, but that is not the substance of the editorial remit we are discussing here. jps (talk) 13:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

This seems like gaslighting. As everyone is telling you, something that's stated to be mythical/imaginary simply doesn't exist. We have a good fair summary. If you want to add something like "and as such qi is not amenable to scientific investigation" that's fine, but it seems banal & unnecessary. Alexbrn (talk) 13:21, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The actual question seems to be: since there are several flavors of nonexistence, from lie via fake news, disinformation, fairy tale, myth, legend, misunderstanding, rookie mistake, ignorance, and obsolete idea to measurement error, do we need to fastidiously copy the exact same flavors named by the sources? It would certainly save time, since complaints are easier rejected. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I concur with jps here. Zooming in upon cherry-picked turns of phrase in order to justify a higher level of plausibility than the science actually supports is not the way to write good encyclopedia material. XOR'easter (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

A thread has been opened since some time at the fringe theories noticeboard. Is there a reason why this is still being discussed here rather than there? Anyway, I have put up a proposal there, so I would like to invite comments on that. If it is preferred I put up my proposal here, I can copy it –just let me know. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 02:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Edit proposal

A number of editors here agreed on the wording (not necessarily the sources) below. I have skimmed through a number of sources, but found that the ones already cited in the article worked well enough (better sources could and should certainly be found, but for now these should suffice). Comments are welcome! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 02:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

The practice of shiatsu is based on the traditional Chinese concept of qi, which is sometimes described as an "energy flow". This energy flow is supposed to be channeled through certain pathways in the human body, known as meridians, thus causing a variety of effects. Despite the fact that many practitioners use these ideas in explaining shiatsu, neither meridians nor qi exist as observable natural phenomena.

References

1. ^ "Shiatsu". Cancer Research UK. 13 December 2018.
2. E.g., Beresford-Cooke, Carola (2003). Shiatsu Theory and Practice: A Comprehensive Text for the Student and Professional. Churchill Livingstone. ISBN 9780443070594. pp. 1–2.
3. Ernst E (2013). Healing, Hype or Harm?: A Critical Analysis of Complementary or Alternative Medicine. Andrews UK Limited. p. 203. ISBN 978-1-84540-712-4.

• I think it's too high-brow in the wording. I would greatly prefer "neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist," or "neither meridians nor qi are known to exist," or "neither meridians nor qi exist." ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Yeah, it's probably too high-brow, but the problem is one of context for the verb "to exist" because the context can be confusing. The question of whether meridians/qi exist in a Platonic sense could be of interest to some, but that's not the context of the part of the article we are interested in here. As an empirical matter, I think all the sources agree that they do not exist as there is no room for them as some phenomenon of the natural world. How to capture that is not something I think I understand well. "neither meridians nor qi exist." might do it fine. I'm not sure. jps (talk) 16:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
    • How about "are not real"? (this wording is used by Ernset & Singh in another source not cited here, incidentally). Alexbrn (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
      • Ugh. As much as I think that natural world is what is implied by "real", I fear that many readers may not understand that either. jps (talk) 16:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Editors at FTN did not "agree" that wording. It seems a bit wordy and has WP:V issues. I'd go with the 3rd wording suggested by MjolnirPants ("neither meridians nor qi exist") for specifically addressing the nature of meridians/qi. Of course more can be said about other aspects of Shiatsu. Alexbrn (talk) 04:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  Your preferred wording ("neither meridians nor qi exist") has been objected to and changed by numerous editors already as a very non-neutral POV. It makes sense to use more words to say more specifically what is meant, as supported by the sources. The proposal "neither meridians nor qi exist as observable natural phenomena" allows for their existence as metaphysical concepts/entities. As I said before, same reason we don't state "God does not exist". Dicklyon (talk) 17:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

• Jps and I "agree on the content". PaleoNeonate found a slightly earlier non-copy-edited version "rather fair", and XOR'easter found that earlier version "a little wordy, but not unforgivably so". No one else commented or objected. It's more than fair to say that four editors 'agreed' here, though that doesn't imply that consensus has been reached, as we can always start disagreeing ;-). I agree that exist as observable natural phenomena is using a rather formal wording that is not present in the source, but MjolnirPants' neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist is already much closer. Neither meridians nor qi exist, on the other hand, is the furthest from the source of all four options on the table: Ernst 2013 explicitly treats of these concepts in terms of their empirical verifiability, saying that qi is unverifiable and that meridians are verifiable but have not actually been verified. As a fifth alternative, Ernst 2019, p. 193 has These are philosophical concepts at best but lack scientific and biological plausibility, which we might perhaps paraphrase with neither meridians nor qi are scientifically plausible concepts. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 05:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
  • It's closest to the sources. So long as we capture the "mythical", "imaginary" properties (=does not exist) without obfuscation all will be good. The SBM source should stay too. Alexbrn (talk) 05:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
    • Harriet Hall in the SBM article writes that acupuncture meridians and acupoints are imaginary until proven otherwise. However, Hall clearly is an opinionated source, which would necessitate us to hedge this with something like "According to the physician and skeptic Harriet Hall, ...". But that is clearly undesirable here, since it would have the opposite effect from the one we intend (i.e., conveying that not only according to skeptics, but according to the scientific community at large these concepts have no credibility). Edzard Ernst 2013 does call qi a myth, but this doesn't summarize his argument, which revolves around the unverifiability of the concept (comparing it to God and to Russell's teapot): the argument every time is that these concepts either cannot or have not been shown to exist, and it would tendentious to reduce this to "mythical", "imaginary", "does not exist", etc. In any case, other non-opinionated sources like the Cancer Research UK or Ernst 2019 do not use such words at all, which makes it clear that it would be undue for us to do so in this context. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 07:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
      • Science-Based Medicine is a very good source for fringe medicine and Hall's comment must not be attributed, but asserted in line with WP:YESPOV (there is no doubt over the statement that meridians are imaginary). It's true that the myth aspect does not "summarize" Ernst's entire commentary, but it is a key aspect and we need to relay it prominently to satisfy WP:PSCI. It seems to be the upshot of these various proposals are to cloud a matter which should be as plain in Misplaced Pages as it is in the sources. We cannot intuit what CRUK thinks about the mythical nature of qi from what it does not say. Alexbrn (talk) 07:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
        • Yes, attributing Hall's comment that qi is imaginary would tend to state a fact as an opinion and thereby violate WP:YESPOV (note though that Ernst 2013 compares qi to God, and at least to say that God is imaginary would commonly be regarded as an opinion rather than as a fact), but not attributing a comment made by a strongly opinionated source would violate WP:BIASED, and that's why we'd better not use it at all. As for the existing proposals, they are directed not at clouding but at following what the sources are saying, which just are not as plain as you would like them to be. No one is trying to intuit what CRUK is thinking or to represent them as saying something they're not saying. It's rather about trying not to unduly say anything they're not saying, which is core content policy. Really, claiming that phrases like "meridians nor qi exist as observable natural phenomena" or "neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist" or "neither meridians nor qi are scientifically plausible concepts" are obfuscating the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community (as WP:PSCI puts it) is quite absurd. They're exactly the kind of thing a scientist would say when speaking for a broad public, and it is indeed what we find in the sources. Saying that they're mythical or imaginary would in many contexts be potentially offensive, as well as less informative, and so they tend to avoid that (as a matter of fact, we are also supposed to prefer nonjudgmental language and to avoid disparaging our subject). But quite simply, if the sources generally avoid it, we do too. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 09:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
          • Hall's statements are not "strongly biased" but just factual. Sources don't "avoid" saying qi/meridians don't exist, so neither should Misplaced Pages. We should not avoid plain English statements of fact. Misplaced Pages can say other things, but so long as we also have something like "qi/meridians do not exist" we'll be good. Alexbrn (talk) 11:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
            • I concur with this. XOR'easter (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
            • Nonsense. This is exactly the problem that numerous editors have objected to and tried to fix since Alexbrn changed 2 years ago from ""Contemporary research has not demonstrated the existence of qi or meridians." When describing alternatives and complements to western medical science, it is fine to say what western medical science says about them, but not to convert that into the only view, and in WP's voice. From the point of view of most people who use, practice, study, or appreciate Eastern medicine, that kind of blanket dismissal of important concepts just makes WP look stupid. It's better to allow the "existence" of such things as metaphysical concepts at least than to use such language. Dicklyon (talk) 17:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
              • Made that change. Phew, we're done. Alexbrn (talk) 17:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• This arguing about what the sources say is 100% pure pedantry, and flies in the face of WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:YESPOV. It's literally trying to find ways to erode the simple, verifiable statement that neither qi nor meridians exist so as to appease those who refuse to accept reality. There's no benefit to watering down the language, and plenty of problems with it, as it undermines the accuracy of this project. "neither meridians nor qi exist," is the absolute best way to phrase it. The claims that it doesn't match what the sources say are pure fabrication. No-one here is stupid or confused enough to actually believe that, and none of us were born yesterday. If it offends you that Misplaced Pages should state such a simple, verifiable fact in plain, direct tones, then you should go edit conservapedia, instead. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @MjolnirPants: please don't redirect me to Conservapedia. Also, calling something pedantry and namedropping policies does not an argument make. Perhaps I was born yesterday (I think I'm younger at least), but just carefully read the following, and point me out precisely where I am wrong. As I see it, saying that qi doesn't exist really belongs to the realm of opinion rather than fact. As Ernst 2013 notes, the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven, and though Russel's teapot (also cited by Ernst) implies that what cannot be proven does not need to be disproven to be extremely unlikely, it does not imply that what cannot be proven is thereby disproven. Simply put, while the existence of qi is not a verifiable fact and therefore rather unlikely, its inexistence also isn't a verifiable fact. That's why Ernst 2013 doesn't say it does not exist: strictly (philosophically) speaking such a claim is untenable, and it's enough for him that qi is empirically unverifiable to argue that is has no place in science. Ernst 2013 also explicitly says that qi enjoys the same status as religious faith. If so, claims of its existence or inexistence are as factual as claims about the existence or inexistence of God. Ernst's whole argument is that science does not work with such unverifiable claims. Most importantly, other sources also plainly do avoid to say that qi doesn't exist (there's not one source saying it), and outright denying this verifiable fact (I encourage you to verify it) won't make it any less true. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

    namedropping policies does not an argument make. Actually, it does. In fact, policy-based arguments are the best arguments to use on WP. If you don't think those principles apply, then feel free to read them. Nothing you've said here or at FTN does anything to undermine the fact that RSes state these things don't exist, and as this is not a BLP issue, there's literally no other acceptable argument for why we should not say so.

    Also, if you don't care to be directed to conservapedia, then perhaps you should stop arguing as if you better belong there. You keep insisting that the sources don't say what they very clearly say, also, which is a seriously problematic stance. I've seen more than one long-term, experienced editors indeffed over their inability to neutrally interpret sources. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

    • @MjolnirPants: a policy-based argument is not the same as a namedropped policy. But stop your tantrum and go read the sources. Quote me one source that says qi doesn't exist, and we'll cite it, no problem. If you don't find it, I expect an apology and, well, a policy-based argument ;-). ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 13:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      Pointing out that you're running afoul of our usual process is hardly a tantrum, but the childishness of that claim might well be. ;)

      Also, you might want to stop asking for quotes that Hob gave you days ago. Ignoring things that prove you wrong isn't a good look.

      And stop pinging me. My watchlist works just fine. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:51, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      Childishness now, really? I can't seem to remember being given any quotes, except a rather unhelpful one that Martin Gardner appears to have used. Could you please give me a pointer? Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:02, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      I think he means this: --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:15, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      @Hob Gadling: thanks for that! These are of course the two sources that Alexbrn and I have been discussing above, and I already quoted them both. Neither of them directly states that qi doesn't exist. Moreover, as I argued, the SBM source (authored by Harriet Hall) clearly is an opinionated source, and although Ernst 2013 does state that concepts such as the qi of Chinese traditional medicine are myths, he goes on by saying that they enjoy the same status as religious faiths, precisely in the sense that the existence of qi can neither be proven nor disproven (note that this is what he directly says about its existence). If you think of how, e.g., biblical scholars use the word "myth", it should be clear that referring to something as a myth is not the same as directly denying it occurred or existed. There are philosophical, methodological, and sociocultural reasons for avoiding that kind of claim (as I also explained above), and Ernst 2013 is using the word myth to clarify his broader argument that science cannot and does not work with unverifiable claims (as myths certainly are). Other sources like the Cancer Research UK page and Ernst 2019 also don't claim inexistence. If we are going to claim it, it should at least be qualified as in Jps's as observable natural phenomena, which I still like (though I would also endorse neither meridians nor qi have ever been shown to exist). ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:52, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      You're wrong about Science-Based Medicine no matter how you WP:CLEARLY argue it. Reality is not a point of view, and being "biased" towards reality/science is the kind of WP:GOODBIAS Misplaced Pages likes, to avoid indulging in the WP:GEVAL fallacy. We can just WP:ASSERT what Hall says wrt Meridians, since no sane source would say otherwise. Why do I feel you concede points only for them to come back, like tenacious zombies? Alexbrn (talk) 14:57, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      I did not concede anything about Science-Based Medicine. No need for you to call my point about it a tenacious zombie. It clearly is an opinionated source, not because the word 'clearly' has such a nice ring to it, but because of the fact that SBM is published by the New England Skeptical Society and that its authors are primarily known as scientific skeptics rather than as scholars (in contradistinction to, e.g., Edzard Ernst). It's a watch-dog website owned by a watch-dog organization. How are you going to tell me that's not opinionated/biased? You cite WP:GOODBIAS, but I don't see that essay mentioning a bias for scientific skepticism, nor a bias for 'reality' for that matter. Anyway, WP:GOODBIAS flows from WP:NPOV, it doesn't somehow trump it. Hob spoke to me earlier about sophistry and tricks. But what is this if not rhetoric and tricks? WP:GEVAL is probably another one of those policies you like to namedrop without given it a second thought how or even whether it applies. You're arguing that we should follow the wording of one opinionated source and ignore the wording of three other sources, two of which are written by one of the most prominent experts on the subject, and dare to argue that not doing so would create a false balance? Everything you say falls completely flat, and most of what you accuse me of really applies to yourself. Most specifically, you have no inclination at all to follow WP:NPOV, and care only for your own personal POV, which appears to be a most particular one indeed: that science equates to reality and that scientific skepticism is the only true philosophy. I suspect that this POV is one that in varying degrees is widely shared by editors around here, so it's rather easy for you to push it, just through proof by assertion. I can't do much about that, but I will tell you that you're not doing the encyclopedia a service this way. I think I've made my argument, and unless another editor steps up and argues for one of the other options, we can have Despite the fact that many practitioners use these ideas in explaining shiatsu, neither meridians nor qi exist. I would only ask everyone to reflect upon how weird this really sounds, and why that could be. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 16:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      It's not a "biased" source other than being biased in favour of science/reality. It is required here for giving a scientific/reality-based context for the TCM woo. This is why WP:PARITY exists. Misplaced Pages does not shilly-shally about nonsenses like qi and meridians, but gives it straight, plain, sourced & true. What you want to do seems to be to have some wordy diversionary text. Sorry, no. Alexbrn (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      You obviously don't know what "biased" means. Or "neutral". A neutral article would balance the POV of western "science-based" medicine with the POV of traditional Eastern medicine. In the latter, qi and meridians exist as important concepts, while in the former they don't exist as physical reality. I don't see why it's so difficult to let WP cover that neutrally. Dicklyon (talk) 17:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      That is an obtuse comment. We don't give credence to disproven nonsense, whether it be "eastern" (e.g. TCM) or "western" (e.g. homeopathy), or anything in between (e.g. antisemitism). You are taking a WP:PROFRINGE position. Alexbrn (talk) 17:46, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      That is an acute comment. The POV that Eastern medicine is "Nonsense" is not a neutral POV. And nobody is asking you to give credence to anything false. Dicklyon (talk) 17:49, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      WP:PROFRINGE. "Regional" "medicine" is a hallmark of quackery, since genuine medicine goes global quickly, as multiple sources attest. Alexbrn (talk) 17:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      That is an acute comment.

      Acute

      /ə-kyoot/

      having or showing a perceptive understanding or insight; shrewd.

      I agree. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      Yes, his observation that "We don't give credence to disproven nonsense, whether it be..." was shrewd. The bit about claiming I'm taking a WP:PROFRINGE position is unsupportable; not something I would do. Why did he make such a claim? It's sharp, not shrewd. Dicklyon (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

      No, you were explicitly taking a profringe position. The claim that we should "balance" real knowledge with fiction passing itself off as knowledge is a very well-known profringe position. You're literally claiming an equivalency between medicine and alternative medicine that doesn't exist, except in the minds of profringe individuals. So, in fact, the entire comment was quite shrewd. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:33, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

      @Dicklyon: "neutral" in neutral point of view does not mean what you think it does. You might want to read my recent explanation at MarshallKe's talk page. Simply put, we follow the proportion of what reliable sources are saying, even if that proportion is very skewed in one direction (e.g., modern medical science vs. TCM), and we remain 'neutral' only with respect to that proportion (however skewed that proportion is). Reliable sources are agreed that TCM's claims are not scientifically credible, so our NPOV is also going to be skewed that way. That's the Misplaced Pages sense of 'neutral'. But by all means, go read my mini-essay! ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 18:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

      I guess I better work up a rebuttal essay, since you seem to be ignoring what WP:NPOV says: "... means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views ..." which is quite different from representing only the majority/western view when writing about non-western topics. Dicklyon (talk) 01:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

      When you use a quote, especially a partial quote ending on "...", users who are experienced with WP:PROFRINGE editors will look up the rest of the quote you omitted. After "significant views", the sentence continues "that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Your geographical criteria for views ("western/non-western") are not used in science or in Misplaced Pages. Instead, we use reliability, and sources which use the geographical criteria are typically not reliable. For that matter, homeopathy is western, and it is also woo. Pseudoscience is region-specific. Science, on the other hand, works everywhere, independent of compasses, because of the invariance of physical systems with respect to spatial translation. See Noether's theorem. So, your picture of the situation is crooked, and in reality, it is all good. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

      Quite. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit this information where including it would unduly legitimize it, and otherwise include and describe these ideas in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the wider world. Anybody who goes against this will eventually get blocked/banned, for good reason. Alexbrn (talk) 07:07, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

• Alexbrn has now unilaterally changed the paragraph Neither qi nor meridians exist. to Neither qi nor meridians exist as observable natural phenomena., removed the 'disputed tag', and commented that "we're done". But that seems premature, given the fact that they seem to be the only one to disagree with the whole first part explaining what qi and meridians are supposed to be. The whole discussion until now has been focused on the admittedly difficult last part, but is there a consensus to leave out the first part of the proposal per Alexbrn's edit? My whole point of writing this was to give it some context. Most people seemed to agree with it before? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:20, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  Well, I think the question of whether to add the sentence you want to add can be handled better in a new section anyway. It would be good to get some input as to whether people think the sentence is decent. jps (talk) 23:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

  One small step... Dicklyon (talk) 01:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

  I added the sentence with a few bold tweaks anyway. I do not object if someone WP:BRDs it. jps (talk) 11:53, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

  I moved it to the description section (it's not really about efficacy) and struck the word "colloquially". Any further discussion is of course possible here. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 12:18, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

  The thing I worry about not including "colloquially" is that the description of qi as an "energy flow" is not a formal description by any means due to no small part that the putative "energy" is at the very least metaphorical and perhaps more accurately described as apocryphal. Not sure what adverb might be better than "colloquial", but no adverb at all strikes me as potentially misleading. jps (talk) 12:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure I entirely understand your concern. We're not saying it's a formal description, just that it's "sometimes described" that way? Perhaps we should look for a source on Chinese philosophy that does give a more formal description? One other alternative is to have "sometimes translated as "energy flow"": the fact that we're dealing with a Chinese word here definitely adds to the difficulty. By the way, describing it as "energy" is not entirely metaphorical, and certainly not apocryphal: did you know that the word "energy" derives from Greek ἐνέργειᾰ (enérgeia), lit. "being-at-work", meaning "activity, operation, vigour"? This word (and its equivalents in other languages, like the Arabic fiʿl) was used in ancient and medieval natural philosophy to denote an active, moving, formative principle. Given the historical definition of life as the state of being self-moving or having an active principle of movement, it was in some contexts also identified as a vital principle (e.g., in Galenic medicine). The modern word energy (the capacity to do work) ultimately derives from this idea of an active principle, as contrasted with a passive principle (historically matter, in Newtonian physics perhaps mass). Our understanding of what energy is, and of what it is and isn't responsible for, has of course changed completely (most importantly, since the 17th century we do not longer identify it as being responsible for form), but there is a certain continuity that goes beyond etymology. Given this historical meaning of the word energy, and given the similarity between that historical concept and the concept of qi, both "vital" and "energy" are apt translations. Isn't it remarkable that the Greek word pneuma, used by Aristotle to denote the material carrier of the active and 'energetic' entity called vital heat, and used by Chrysippus to denote that energetic principle itself, literally means "air", and that qi also literally means "air"? G. E. R. Lloyd, one of the most well-respected historians of ancient philosophy and science, has written a number of books on this which are still on my reading list. Anyway, even though the incoherent use of the word energy among modern-day esotericists also has a background in the historical meanings of the word as described above, the description of qi as "energy" in reliable sources does not necessarily derive from the popularity of qi among said esotericists, but has its own background in the comparative historiography of natural philosophy. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 14:50, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

The problem is the term "energy (esotericism)" was itself (as far as I can ascertain) employed entirely as a pseudoscientific gloss similar to the way animal magnetism was originally used or how some contemporary circles are trying to adopt "quantum" as in quantum mysticism. If you look at the OED-type etymology of the way that "energy" is employed in these contexts, it is never with direct reference to the physical definition but is instead something of an homage or, at worst, a complete fabrication. So it is misleading to simply say this is described as an "energy" just as it would be to, for example, offer the direct translation of "air" without qualification. None of this is to deny that the historical development of the physical quantity and term "energy" proceeds much as you describe, and I do not begrudge proponents the use of the term they find most useful for their exposition, but I do think it is a disservice to the reader to use only the "scare quotes" to indicate that the description is problematic. Think about some student learning about this subject for the first time when reading this page. I don't want it to seem like this is a functional description of an "energy flow", for example. jps (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Okay, now I understand your concern. I still think it kind of ignores the fact that in quantum mysticism and the like, a scientific term has been used to fabricate entirely new fanciful theories, while qi is a philosophical concept with a very long and venerable history that has only relatively recently become the subject of abuse by esotericists and quacks. But you're certainly right that we should avoid misleading our readers into thinking that qi is somehow identifiable with what modern science calls energy. I've just gone through a rather large number of sources on Chinese philosophy, and the most often used translation is "vital energy", closely followed by "vital force". I've just added those sources to our Qi article, so we can copy them from there. Ernst 2013 also uses the term "vital force", and Ernst 2019 "vital energy". I would propose changing the sentence to on the Chinese philosophical concept of qi, which is most often translated as "vital energy" or "vital force". This way, it's perhaps somewhat clearer that it's a philosophical concept (Ernst 2019 also refers to qi and related terms as "philosophical concepts at best"), that the meaning is not entirely fixed because of the language gap, and that it's more closely related to the idea of 'having a lot of energy' (as opposed to being tired) than to the modern scientific concept. I personally find linking to Energy (esotericism) just as misleading as linking to Vitalism (as the Qi article does for "vital force"), but I'll leave that to your discretion. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:44, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I think this is perhaps over-complicating the issue a bit. I see lots of sources claiming a "most common" translation, but they don't agree with each other. As it is we could use "vital force", "life force", "life energy", "vital energy", "flowing life force", "circulating life energy"... the list goes on and on. So I don't really care what term is used, but I still think that adding a simple caveat such as "colloquially" or some sort of synonym for "simple" will make it clearer that we are talking about an inexact translation. That's all I really want here: an indicator that there isn't a clear translation. I am still in favor of linking to what I consider the more umbrella term of energy (esotericism) here. jps (talk) 21:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I think you didn't grasp what I was saying. We're talking about a 2300-year old philosophical concept here (it originated in the School of Naturalists, third century BCE) that the most prominent historians of philosophy and science usually describe as a "vital energy or vital force". There's no way that this expert usage is colloquial, or simple. These scholars all agree with each other, and in most cases they give a number of alternative translations themselves. They do, however, go on to use the term qi after this initial explanation, as is common with foreign-language philosophical terms that have no direct equivalent in English, and which commonly results in the absence of one stable English term. If we really want to make it clear that the translation is unstable, the best way to do that is probably to give one literal translation and then a number of common translations. That way, we are almost literally saying that the translations given are inexact and do not correspond with the original meaning of the term (the case of pneuma is fairly similar by the way, as can be glanced from the lead of our article on it). For example:

The practice of shiatsu is based on the Chinese philosophical concept of qi, which literally means "air" but is commonly translated as "vital energy" or "vital force".

Liu 2015 is a particularly good sample source here, since it's an edited volume written by top-tier experts in the field (the different page numbers refer to different scholars), who consistently gloss it as either "vital energy" or "vital force". ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 04:53, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

References

1. Ernst 2019, p. 193 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFErnst2019 (help).
2. Cheng, Chung-ying (2003). "Qi (Ch'i): Vital Force". In Cua, Antonio S. (ed.). Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy. New York: Routledge. pp. 615–617. ISBN 978-1-1353-6748-0. p. 615. Cf. Lloyd, Geoffrey E. R.; Sivin, Nathan (2002). The Way and the Word: Science and Medicine in Early China and Greece. New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-09297-0. p. 9 ("vital energy"); Liu, Xiaogan (2015). Dao Companion to Daoist Philosophy. Dordrecht: Springer. doi:10.1007/978-90-481-2927-0. ISBN 978-90-481-2926-3. pp. 258, 267, 270, 349, 402, 474 ("vital energy"), pp. 205, 216, 422, 485 ("vital force"). Cf. also Ernst 2019, p. 194 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFErnst2019 (help) ("vital energy").

God does not exist

Regal

The joys of full-protection... I'll come back to this later then. Shiatsu has a brief mention put in context in Regal's Pseudoscience - A critical encyclopedia's "Alternative medicine" section. It could be used to add a little more context in this article's "description", possibly also to mention that it's listed in this encyclopedia, that might support the pseudoscientific mention (that currently lacks any citations). —PaleoNeonate – 16:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I have added it to the article. We probably need a better source though, since Regal does not have a separate entry on Shiatsu (he barely mentions it in the passing without any analysis or further comment), and does not directly call it pseudoscience. That we do need a good source on this is made clear by the fact that while looking for sources, I found both a practitioner's handbook published by Elsevier and one published by Springer, both very well respected STM publishers. Not normally being involved with this kind of thing, I guess I kind of forgot how bad it really is. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 01:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Respectable publishers will publish pseudoscience as long as there is a buck to be made. We have a lot of documentation of this problem. Occasionally, some of these publications get pulled when Misplaced Pages editors go asking at the publishing houses to find out who it was who reviewed the material. I may or may not be guilty of such. :P jps (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Unclear revert reasons

I made a sequence of four tiny edits to improve the article, sticking close to cited sources and using a good survey source instead a POV editorial by a quack chaser. Apaugasma reverted the whole lot with summary I think these changes are taking the tone of the article further away from the sources rather than the opposite; feel free to discuss at the talk. Most of these are already discussed above, and he didn't give any particulars of what he objected to or why sticking closer to what the supporting sources say makes him think the tone "further away from the sources". This is very odd. So I reverted his revert, and am seeking any particular reasons why any of these changes would not be regarded as improvements. Dicklyon (talk) 18:57, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

The changes in question are these:

• changed including thrombosis, embolism, and at least one documented injury to including one case of thrombosis, one embolism, and a documented injury". There's no reason to imply that the source indicated more than those few cases.
• removed the cite to editorial '"The Primo Vascular System: The N-rays of Acupuncture?'" by "The SkepDoc", and replaced it with the ref that had been there or a long time before Alexbrn removed it in Dec 2008, "Electrical properties of acupuncture points and meridians: A systematic review".
• changed natural phenomena" to "physical phenomena", since that's what the sources talk about. It's unclear what "natural" would mean here, while "physical" is very clear, and sourced.
• in There is no good evidence that shiatsu is an effective medical treatment, changed good to scientific (as in the source), and is an effective medical treatment to will prevent or cure any disease (as in the source). In some of them serious, changed some to a few since really only 2 cases of serious adverse health effects are reported.

Any objections to any of those? Dicklyon (talk) 19:09, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I'll discuss them one by one:

1. Actually, Ernst 2019 cites Wada et al. 2005 as only one example among several case reports, and he himself implies that there are more examples. In any case, your change is unduly minimizing things by stressing that there is only one case each time. This is not at all the tone of the sources (including Wada et al. 2005), who stress the opposite.

   Maybe you can quote what you're seeing? In Wada I see a single case report with "To the best of our knowledge, IJV and cerebral venous sinus thrombosis possibly caused by shiatsu massage has not been previously reported." And in this Ernst paper, "The majority of adverse effects were associated with exotic types of manual massage or massage delivered by laymen, while massage therapists were rarely implicated" and "serious adverse events are probably true rarities". The serious adverse effect was one retinal artery embolism, with cause by shiatsu therapy not certain. Dicklyon (talk) 23:26, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

2. Personally, I strongly agree with this change, but Alexbrn did not, and since there has been a long discussion on this above I thought it should perhaps be discussed separately?

   Thanks for agreeing. What do you think Alexbrn might be disagreeing with? The removal of "The SkepDoc" editorial, or the citing of the survey article? @Alexbrn: which/why? Dicklyon (talk) 23:26, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

3. There has been a very long and difficult discussion on that sentence above, and just changing without any discussion is completely unacceptable.

   Just because Alexbrn inserted his preferred wording after discussion doesn't mean that tweaking it to be closer the source is "unacceptable". Instead, say why you think "physical" here is not better than "natural". Dicklyon (talk) 23:26, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

4. The only good evidence in this case is scientific (do I really need to refer to WP:MEDRS?), and the way you put it sounds like there may be evidence of another sort; is an effective medical treatment is clearer (not a biggy though); changing some to a few is minimizing it, but that does not seem warranted given the fact that Ernst 2019 has a big red thumbs down for the safety of shiatsu.

   "The only good evidence in this case is scientific" makes no sense. There is no scientific evidence, as the source says; why not leave it at that? And the interpretation of "effective medical treatment" is not ruled out by sources that suggest that Shiatsu may be effective at helping people feel relaxed, etc. Again, no real reason to extrapolate beyond what the source says, just because you prefer to portray alternatives in the worst possible light and only from the western/scientific/skeptic POV. Shiatsu is a thing, widely used and respected and parts of the world, and as long as we're not claiming it's effective where it's not, and fairly representing the points of view in the sources, we're meeting the policies and guidelines. Dicklyon (talk) 23:26, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I actually looked at all your changes quite carefully, and I only agreed with no. 2 here (but did not leave it in for the reason given). Could you in the future please follow WP:BRD and discuss before you revert? Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:13, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

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