Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:36, 29 January 2007

Is there an apostrophe in this name? -- Zoe

Nope. Jfitzg

Largest Employer

General Motors operates two plants in the city and up until recently was the city's largest employer.

Okay, who IS the largest employer now? Radagast 20:43, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

See http://www.st.catharines.com/forbusiness/ecodevt/eco_dev_statsandfacts.asp. DSBN is Number 1, GM is Number 2, NHS is Number 3, Brock is 4 and SITEL Corporation (a call center) is 5. Snickerdo 19:32, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What is the density of St. Catharines?

or how many sq kilometers?

Transportation

I cut out a portion from someone's previous entry regarding transportation and put it in a new Transportation heading, I thought the city should have its own Transportation heading. - Trappy

Pictures

I think we need a professional wikipedian to view this article and arrange the pictures in a new way to be more visually appealing. Some recent changes (although very good and informative!) have off-set all the photos and the entire page is in need of a re-arrangement of its photos in my opinion. --Matt0401 00:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This article is really starting to look GOOD, I think we do need more photos though and I agree they do need to be arranged in a professional manner. --Trappy 17:21, 22 March 2006

Well, I myself added a photo I personally took (hey, atleast now I can't run into copyright issues unless god patented the sky when he chose to colour it blue :P). When I added the photo I placed it well so it looked good. But now that more and more info has been added, it's offset things and the article is in need of a rearrangement by soming who REALLY knows how to arrange photos well on Misplaced Pages. I also agree with what you stated about more photos. My brother bikes a lot around the city. Maybe sometime I'll get him to take a few more shots of things around the city (probably important places). --Matt0401 21:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Could we move some of those pictures and maps to Commons? I want to use them in the Alemannic article. --Chlämens 14:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I published my photo of Walker's Creek to Wikimedia Commons for you to use. Here is a link. --Matt0401 16:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm wondering if the flag and coat of arms can be moved to Commons or if they aren't sufficiently licensed. I might just take a few pictures myself as well. --Chlämens 19:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Wikimedia Commons is only for items released into the public domain by average joes such as ourselves. The copyrights of the Coat of Arms and Flag appear to be under "fair use", so I doubt they can legally be placed in the commons. However, I know 100% that any photos we personally take or graphics that we produce having to do with the city are eligable for placement in the Commons. I think the next photo we get should be of the Fairview Mall. (The shopping section of the article is in need of a photo. --Matt0401 20:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You can upload anything on Commons as long as it's free of copyright; which is hard to find. I'm guessing the flags come from the city website but if someone redraws them and releases them they are free, or we could ask the city for permission ("please, can we use your flag for Misplaced Pages?"). If anyone uploads stuff on Commons, please add Category:St. Catharines, Ontario. --Chlämens 00:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I am so glad that this is a discussion topic because I believe that most of the pictures that I have uploaded are in need of proper categorization, touching up and good description. Therefore I am going to delete a few of them off Misplaced Pages, fix them up and upload them again for future use. Please do not be alarmed as they will return! (Trappy 20:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC))

If you are going to upload more pictures it would make it easier if you would do so on Commons so that everyone can use them. --Chlämens 22:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I really like the recent changes and additions to the photos in this article. The article now looks very well-developed! I prefer the new location of my Walker's Creek photo in the "Parks and Trails" section of the article better than in the History section. --Matt0401 23:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I moved a few pictures to Commons: Category:St. Catharines, Ontario. I also finally finished the Alemannic article which is now probably about as detailed as the English one.--Chlämens 00:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I added more pictures to the article, however, it might look a bit too cluttered or disorganized. If anyone has a solution for a better arrangement, please feel to use it...or just send me a msg if you think its better to delete any of my photos. Trappy 20:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Government & Law

Can someone with knowledge in politics start a subsection on Government & Law (or something similar to that) in the city's article? There is no real description of the municipality's structure and how the city is represented at the local, provincial and federal levels. Other major cities have sections that describe the ward system in their communities for example, or whether or not there is a court house serving the area etc. St. Catharines needs a section like this. Trappy 17:28 22 March 2006

I plan on eventually getting to that. Trying to expand on the information that is already there first. Snickerdo 03:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The section is done. Feel free to update and/or edit as needed. Snickerdo 10:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Notable figures

Not my article, but I'd say the Notable figures section is getting a bit long and the paragraph-per-person format isn't the easiest to read. Perhaps we should start populating Category:St. Cathariners instead? Or perhaps a spin-off sub-article with a list is in order. Just a thought. --Qviri (talk) 16:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned it up a bit using bulleted lists. Looks much better now. Snickerdo 03:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Communities

What about those areas that are shaded yellow on the map of the communities? Are they autonomous or something? --Chlämens 00:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope, they're a part of St. Catharines, but presumably lack a distinct identity. They're just St. Catharines. --Qviri (talk) 00:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

That's sad. So do the communities actually have any administrative function or are they just based on identity? --Chlämens 00:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The communities as outlined on the map do not have self-government per se — the closest that comes to that is that ward system that elects councillors to the St. Catharines city council. --Qviri (talk) 01:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And even then, the ward boundries are more historical, and not based at all on the local communities. Some communities have more identity than others - for example, even though The North End isn't really a community in the strictest sense, the term is used by residents far more than Martindale or Facer are used. Merriton and Port Dalhousie used to be their own towns that were annexed by St. Catharines, while the rest of the communities for the most part developed seperately from the main core of the city, and therefore received their own name for the neighbourhood. The smallest three communities - Barbican Heights, St. George's Point and Michigan Beach - are commonly grouped together with their larger neighbours, but the terms are still used by reisdents of St. Catharines to describe each one individually. Snickerdo 10:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Geography and Climate

I added much more information to this section, however I wasnt able to include the 'degrees' symbol in the temperatures. Can someone please add the symbol to the numbers, or include any specific average temperatures that I wasn't able to find on the internet? I picked up the 27C in July info from the weather network website. (Trappy 21:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC))

Shopping

The shopping section is in need of work. Does anyone have information pertaining to st. catharines role in niagara's retail industry? I remember reading that, statiscally, st. catharines has the largest number of retail options per citizen (or something like that), with one writer even calling the city "Ontario's Shopping Capital" (??). There is also the history of the Niagara Peninsula Shopping Centre (now The Pen), and information related to Lincoln Mall, technically its not a mall anymore, now that its been torn down and revamped as a plaza with Walmart and Canadian Tire. I also remember hearing that Fairview Mall was Ontario's first enclosed mall. Furthermore, how can we include other St. Catharines tidbids like its large number of donut shops (the donut shop capital), or the fact that we have the worst levels of obesity in the country...though grim, this is a fact we can not deny. There is also the problem with graffiti in the city (an Issues section may be worthwhile). Trappy 14:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I took it upon myself to update this section, please free to add to it or modify it. Trappy 02:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Spelling of St. CathArines

I swear, if I see one more person mis-spell St. Catharines with an E... ugh Snickerdo 23:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Tell me about it, and I don't even live there. Recently I've been patrolling wikipedia courtesy of google (site:en.wikipedia.org catherines ontario), and making corrections, but not only does google index some articles slow, people keep on making that mistake over and over. I should make a bot to make these corrections... --Qviri (talk) 02:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Newspapers

I notice that some people have posted online news sites in this section...I believe this section was referring to published newspapers that are circulated in St. Catharines. Perhaps someone could create an online news category? Trappy 14:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Demographics

The demographics section is very long. I could put in some charts to make the section smaller, but still have all the important information on the page. I will add the reference as well Galati 20:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC) Galati

I search help

This I wrote for Trappy originally, but he live no longer in St. Catharines and can not help. That is why I place it here. Can You help my?

Hallo, I am sorry, I have two invocations:

• 1) I am searching free images for article about Kristen French (and for cs: verzi). Please, can you help my and make pictures of Kristen's grave and monument to Kristen's memory on beginnin of Green Ribbon Trail? (both images are on web, but probably not free ( here ). And from Czech Republik is it in St. Catharines "a little long way".

• 2) Can you your images to locate directly on commons? En: is not only wikipedia with article about St. Catharines. :-)

• 3) I am very sorry for my horrible english.

Cinik 03:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Maps from The Commons are all wrong

Whoever is moving/re-linking images from the Commons is doing a very poor job. The Neighbourhood Map was two revisions out of date, and the Location/CMA map was using the old colour scheme. If items are going to be moved to the Commons and then re-linked, it's best to ensure that the correct versions are being used, otherwise don't bother at all - it makes it difficult for us to clean up. Snickerdo 17:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sister City

How long has Port of Spain been our Sister City? Ceris 23:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

From what my mother told me, it has been since the early 1970s. She was involved in the ceremonies when the twinning officially occurred. Snickerdo 03:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of the Falcons logo

Why was the Falcons logo removed? Does this logo not qualify under fair use as a corporate/team logo? Snickerdo 09:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use is a bit ambiguous. As far as some people are concerned, a team logo qualifies as fair use only on the article about the team itself, and not in any other article whether it's related or not. I'm not one of those people, but I'm not prepared to say that they're wrong, either — WP's fair use policy is in a lot of flux right now and may be kind of ambiguous on this point. Bearcat 09:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Fattest City

I really don't think that it's appropriate to include St. Catharines' "Fattest City" title in its opening paragraph. Yes, this infamous title was published in Canadian newspapers back in 2001, but it would be more appropriate to place this under a City Issues paragraph. This title was given after one study published 6 years ago showed the largest number of people afflicted with obesity in our city, that hardly qualifies it as an official title (if anything, it just mocks this serious city issue)...it shouldn't be in the opening paragraph. Trappy 21:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There really isn't a template to follow regarding this sort of thing, however I've gone through other city pages, and lead in sentences are often the place for statistics or notable things about the city like "fastest growing city", "has a reputation for coffee consumption", "one of the oldest cities in Canada" or "a focal point for individuals who are attracted by its liberal lifestyle" - so I don't see how this differs. And there are more sources than one 6-year old study. PETA also has St. Catharines listed as #1 and it's noted in a November 2006 article here . I don't think that because this could be a potentially negative thing it should be excluded from the lead in sentence, as Misplaced Pages isn't a tourist guide. I think if it's notable enough, good or bad, it can be included in the lead sentence. Yankees76 00:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I moved it to demographics as an issue like this is not worthy of an opening paragraph, though it could certainly be included in the demographics section. I totally agree with Trappy that it doesn't belong at the beginning. Yankee76, I suggest you back off and stop calling people 'vandals' for working hard to preserve the quality of articles they have worked on for many years. Your arrogance, as well as actually using PETA as a source of data (hahahahahaha) gives you very little credibility in this situation. Snickerdo 03:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I thought I'd just add, that this PETA crap looks identical to the StatsCan data from 2001. It should also be noted that the data is at a CMA level - this includes the entire Niagara Region - and not St. Catharines itself. One could argue, rightfully so, that Welland and Port Colborne are loaded with fat people and everyone in St. Catharines are skinny. I would argue that this information should be included somewhere on a re-worked Niagara Region page, but including it on St. Catharines is nothing short of mis-information. Snickerdo 03:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

First off drop the hostile tone, stay calm, assume good faith, and remain civil. Secondly, I would suggest you give WP:OWN and read and realize that Misplaced Pages can be edited by anyone. The information added is notable, of a neutral point of view and easily passes for inclusion based on WP:VERIFY - meaning that the material added to this Misplaced Pages article has already been published by a reliable sources - which CTV News and the Globe and Mail are. This is the threshold for inclusion of material into Misplaced Pages - and any editor may add it to this article, regardless of the time spent editing it previously. I'm more than willing to debate whether or not it warrants inclusion in the opening paragraph, however your deliberate blanking of the material based solely on your own original research and POV is unacceptable. Yankees76 06:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Upon second thought, considering this is a regional statistic, I have removed it all together. If someone wants to add it to the Niagara Region page, that's up to them, but adding it to St. Catharines both dilutes the statistic, and robs the rest of the region from the 'honour' of enjoying a few extra pounds on their belly. Snickerdo 03:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that the source given for the material clearly states St. Catharines, not the Niagara Region. A second source, (FATTEST & FITTEST by Andre Picard, July 21, 2001 Globe and Mail) also confirms it was the city of St. Catharines - not the Niagara Region. In fact the article quoted Tim Rigby, the mayor of St. Catharines, saying that he "reacted with disbelief to the news that he presides over the fattest city in Canada". Another article also states that St. Catharines was the fattest city in 1998 as well. Even Brock University mentions it on their website saying "St. Catharines is the fattest town in Canada, and we ought to be concerned about our health" - again no mention of this being a regional statistic. The only debate we should be having is where in the article the information belongs. Yankees76 06:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I had suggested that the issue of St. Catharines high obesity rates be included in a City Issues section. We could also include Graffiti, the Port Tower and Greenbelt legislation within this section, as they are pressing issues in St. Catharines. If you look further up on this page, you will see that I mentioned the Fattest City statistic back in April 2006 (under the title Shopping) - I had wanted it included in the article but didn't know if the statistic was still relevant or not. I am still not fully convinced that a new study has been conducted to ensure that the numbers have remained since 2001. That doesn't mean we can't include this issue in the article. More personally, I was not happy to read a suggestion that we are turning this wikipedia page into a tourist guide, no tourist guide would use a picture of the low-level parking lot as the first photo you see scrolling down the page - surely we are trying to capture the essence of what is St. Catharines, I lived there my whole life and know it well. I just don't see how saying St. Catharines is known as "the fattest city" immediately after stating its geographical location, its main industries and its official nickname (adopted by the city)...IMO, it looks unprofessional. I think that we are trying to make the introduction a little more formal here, if we wanted to include random nicknames that have not been officially recognized by the city then we would have to also include Donut Capital, St. Kitts (which we did at one point, but it was removed), Garbage City (that nickname published by the Globe and Mail is a perfect addition to a City Issues section) in the opening introduction too. I will start a City Issues section, feel free to add information to it. Thanks Trappy 17:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Why would the statistic not be relevant? St. Catherines was named Canada's fattest city in studies in 1998 and 2001 - and to the best of my knowledge a further study has not been completed since then to suggest otherewise. If there has been another that shows otherwise, then the information should be changed to reflect "was" the fattest, not "is". Also, looking "unprofessional" is not really a criteria that Misplaced Pages uses to determine where well written and properly sourced prose goes in an article. I think your non-neutral point of view thinks it looks unprofessional because it can been seen negatively. I doubt we'd be having this conversation if the information was about St. Catharines being Canada's wealthiest city. See WP:NPOV. With regards to some other issues; I merely stated that Misplaced Pages isn't a tourist guide, not that you were turning the article into one. Again, another instance where you and Snickerdo are not assuming good faith and I've intiated discussion with an administrator with regards to this. I think before jumping all over someone who is including notable and verfiable information on a topic, it might have been a good idea to politely discuss the information before simply deleting it or writing it off because it doesn't agree with your point of view. For now the information is fine in the city issues section. I would suggest the two of you work on your Wikiquette in future dealings with other editors. Yankees76 17:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

God Yankee, you can't even spell the name of the city correctly. Also, if you actually read the Statistics Canada data, you will see that it is based on the St. Catharines-Niagara CMA, not the city itself. A government source easily outweighs your sources (such as PETA, ahahaha, I still can't get over that). Stop trying to tell -us- we're the issue here, you're the one coming here and stirring up crap. Two against one. I have to say that you are over-ruled on this point. Invite the 'administrator' in. This talk page quite clearly shows that the contributors to your article DO NOT want your changes to become a permanent fixture. You, sir, do not seem to understand the value in multiple contributors and how :talk pages such as these are instrumental in coming to common consensus on pages. If you don't like consensus and fell that you should be able to crap on any page you like, I'm sure there are many other pages, such as Lambton County, that you can destroy with your own views on Good Faith and the like. *rolls eyes*

And yeah Trappy, if you believe it should be bit in City Issues or Demographics I would agree with that, but it should not be included along with the city's official nickname. I'm sure Yankee, a wonderful resident of Petrolia, wouldn't want us coming in there, mis-spelling the city name and calling it a horrible hole within Lambton County (because PETA says so!) on his city's page, either. Frankly, I am getting sick and tired of the arrogance and bullcrap on Misplaced Pages that comes from users like Yankee. I am an inch away from revoking all rights to every image I have ever made, pulling them off Misplaced Pages, and being done with this place. I remember when Misplaced Pages was a fun community where people got along. We didn't have users littering our :talk pages with graphics and pictures to try and emphasize a point that we, old users, were instrumental in creating. There. My rant is done. Snickerdo 02:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Your strawman arguments (a couple of spelling mistakes, the tired PETA argument - something I've not even referenced in the article, and even dragging in a town that I've never even lived in that you pulled after a casual glance of my user page) carry absolutely no weight here. If these are your best arguments then you're wasting Misplaced Pages resources. And where is this information from StatsCan saying Niagara Region? I've posted numerous sources that say city - not region, and they're reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources - something Misplaced Pages requires wherever possible. Secondly, read WP:OWN again - this isn't your article. If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. One would think that two years of editing on Misplaced Pages would have taught you that, and how to properly dispute a statement. You might have been here two years, but your actions say otherwise. And your idle threats about revoking your "rights" to any article is laughable and again, not even relevant to this discussion. Lastly the information I've added to the article was published by numerous reliable sources, simply because you and a buddy object to any negative information being included into "your" article because you're unable to edit with a NPOV, does nothing to the validity of the information presented. And you know what, I think I will bring some administrators into this - thanks for the suggestion. I'll start by pointing them to the uncivil behaviour and personal attacks in your previous posts both here and on my talk page. Yankees76 04:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yankee, you are not an administrator. Stop trying to act like one. From now on, all content from you on my :talk pages will be removed (along with a note stating that comments from an abusive user was removed) and your edits, after being involved here in a talk with two other users who disagree with your point of view, are now getting abusive. You want to get an administrator involved? Bring it on. I look forward to having someone other than you to bitch at about this.

It is quite clear that there is no dispute on the statistic, albeit there are some schematics regarding who exactly it applies to. There are disputes related to 1) how it is worded 2) where it is worded 3) how it is presented. Another user - not just me - totally disagrees with how you are doing this. STOP being ignorant and stop trying to make a point where there is none. I have already checked, you are not an administrator, stop trying to act like one and maybe, just maybe, myself and Trappy would be more receptive to your ideas.

Snickerdo 08:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)