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Aviation B‑class

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Military history: Aviation / North America / United States / World War II Start‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale. This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: | b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> | b2<!--Coverage and accuracy   --> = <yes/no> | b3<!--Structure               --> = <yes/no> | b4<!--Grammar and style       --> = <yes/no> | b5<!--Supporting materials    --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion. Associated task forces: /  Military aviation task force North American military history task force United States military history task force World War II task force

ÁHi, I wrote a very big portion of the article. Most of the information was taken from my own site, so that obviously there's no problem with copyright. --Uriyan

Added some stats (climb rate, ferry range) from http://www.319th.com/p51.htm and specified P-51D for the climb.Chairboy 15:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Inconsistency: Me 262 page says "The Tempest was the first Allied plane to shoot down a Me262 ..." though this page says "Chuck Yeager, flying a P-51D, was the first Allied pilot to shoot down a Me 262 ..." Mjs

They're both wrong - it was a Spitfire XIV that shot down the first Me 262. Ian Dunster 15:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The result was astonishing

The sentence "The transformed Mustang could outfly anything in the air including the latest British fighters" was Revised as of 07:56, 17 July 2005 to "Although the Mustang could not live with the Supermarine Spitfire in a dogfight, its extra range with the use of drop tanks, enabled the mark to excel as bomber escort. ". please see Talk:Supermarine Spitfire variants for a discussion on the two statments. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Service details

I think the article needs a section on the countries and units that used the P-51, in what numbers and when. It was a very popular plane, if only for a short time. Grant65 (Talk) 16:07, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I tried to start a Foreign Service section to answer that question. I'll complete it later on... Any help would be welcome, though.

Mustang I (Dive Bomber)?

One aircraft was passed to the British who gave it the name Mustang I (Dive Bomber).

I have a British aircraft recognition handbook from around 1943/44 that states that the British name for the A-36 dive bomber variant of the Mustang was Invader I (I don't mean the Douglas B-26/A26 one!) - If anyone wants a scan of the handbook entry then drop me a line via my e-mail link. Ian Dunster 15:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

http://www.vectorsite.net/avp51.html is my source on that information. Seeing as the A-36 was originally named the Invader this could also be true. I don't know what Greg Geobel's source on that information is. -- Thatguy96 23:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Link to a very rare colour photo from the 40s

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/boundforglory/images/bg0066.jpg

A-36--an early P-51 variant that had a different engine and flew ground attack instead of dogfighting with 4x20mm cannons. Someone who knows HTML should do linky stuff.

Great photo but it's not an A-36. A-36 can be best distinguished by fence airbrakes on top and bottom of the wings as well as by additional .50 cal Brownings in the nose under the engine. They were also armed with .50 cals in the wings. This is a cannon-armed P-51A. - Emt147 05:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to nitpick, but the only cannon armed P-51s I know about are the NA-91s, the P-51A is the NA-99, the NA-91 was designated the P-51 by the USAAF and Mustang IA by the British. I could always be wrong too. - Thatguy96 00:23, 20 December 2005

Yeah, I think you are right. I was too lazy to see what it said on the Accurate Minuatures box in the basement. :) - Emt147 16:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Photo looks great. But which variant is it?

P-51/Mustang IA with 4x 20 mm cannon armament. - Emt147 02:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

OPERATIONAL SERVICE

I have some issues with the section labeled "Effects of the P-51", ranging from timeline to generalizations of cause and effect that led to the employment of the Mustang as the escort fighter of choice in the ETO. The summary of the heavy bomber effort in particular is skewed, and while the conclusion is correct (i.e. heavy losses led directly to the conversion of all but one P-47 and P-38 groups in England to the P-51), this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, so generalizations should be accurate. The literature on heavy bomber operations is massive, and I have most of it in my library, so I will attempt to correct the section without turning it into an article on heavies.131.238.92.62 08:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Buckboard 00:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Losses to rocket attacks

This article claims that most Allied bomber losses were to rocket-firing German aircraft. This is wrong. The Gr.21 rockets were wildly inaccurate and were used only in an attempt to scatter bomber formations. Guns, big guns and bigger guns was what the fighters used. - Emt147 16:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

1600 km

There is a problem with the range, which states 1000 miles, and 1600 km with drop tanks. But 1600 km is only 994 miles.

To maintain an equivalent number of significant digits between the original number and the conversion (to avoid creating precision where there is none) 1,000 mi is 1,600 km (both accurate within a hundred). - Emt147 06:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Picture not clear

Maybe I'm being a bit too strict, but to some people, it might seem that the Mustang P-51 is the very modern F-14 or F-15 in the back (I can't tell which it is). Maybe somebody could put up a picture with only the P-51 Mustang as the main article picture? Marcos Juárez 22:32, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. A picture with only the P-51 is better.--Darz Mol 16:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Comparable?

Under the heading Comparable Aircraft the article lists the CAC Kangaroo. The Kangaroo never went into production so isn't Comparable stretching it a bit. What say you? Moriori 21:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Originally the CAC CA-15 was listed in the article, incorrectly, as a "related" aircraft (as was the F-82). That was presumably a result of superficial similarities in appearance between the P-51 and CA-15, from side-on. I changed it to "comparable", which I'm inclined to accept as also being incorrect, given that design work on the Kangaroo didn't begin until 1943. Grant65 | Talk 15:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

.50 cal poor penetration?

Cannon were superior air-to-air weapons in many respects than heavy machine guns, but not due to superior penetration. If anything, the .50 cal probably had superior penetration to any 20mm or even 30mm cannon mounted in any airplane I know of. The cannon caused more structural damage by exploding, which is more efficient than punching holes, but the .50 was better at piercing armor. If you doubt this there are numerous ballistics tables available on the internet.

The maximum speed of the P-51H is incorrect. It was approximately 487mph, not 444mph.

Hi, I added the little trivia part. Feel free to remove it if it dosn't feat with the article.

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/History/SP-468/cover.htm%7Caccessdate=2006-04-22
  • In A-6 Intruder on Sat Jun 3 22:43:46 2006, 404 Not found
  • In A-6 Intruder on Tue Jun 6 23:30:02 2006, Socket Error: (111, 'Connection refused')
  • In P-38 Lightning on Tue Jun 13 20:16:35 2006, 404 Not found

maru (talk) contribs 00:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Err...

"In 1946, the designation P-51D (P for pursuit) was changed to F-51D (F for fighter) because of a new designation scheme throughout the USAF." Spot the problem...

Two problems, it was 1948, and the USAF didn't exist in 1946. However, the USAF did exist when the system was actually changed. The models still in service were the following (plus what they were previously): F-51B (P-51B), F-51D (P-51D), F-51K (P-51K), RF-51D (F-6D), RF-51K (F-6K), TRF-51D (two-seat F-6Ds conversions). -- Thatguy96 06:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

POV

I have hung back from doing this, but the problem just won't seem to go away. The claim of "free hunting" in "May of 1944" needs to sourced. The idea of strafing airfields on an organized and sanctioned basis came as early as January 1944 when Hap Arnold sent a directive to Kepner calling for it. The first organized hunting mission occured in March 1944. The sanctioning of strafing airfields on the way home from escort missions began at the same time. P-51 enthusiasts are dipping into mythology on this point--if you have the source, put it up--at least here. Secondly, the scorekeeping regarding kills is grossly misleading. Only three of the 38 fighter groups in the ETO flew the P-51 exclusively in WWII--the 339th, 354th, and 357th. All the others flew something else--the P-47 or P-38 primarily--before some of them converted to the Mustang. Those that converted had some high-scoring P-47 totals--such as the 355th and 78th groups. To atrribute all the kills and all the losses to P-51s, again without sourcing, is grossly misleading. This can be a good article, but only if we get beyond the rah-rah chatter for an admittedly superior aircraft.--Buckboard 23:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

pictures

has many more pictures. I can't read the text. --Gbleem 22:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

P-51 in film

Much of that section (aside from violating WP:AVTRIV) does not pass the "notability" criteria. Let's examine:

• Fighter Squadron, a 1948 film, depicted a P-47 unit based loosely on the 4th Fighter Group (sometimes known as "Blakeslee's Bachelors"). The 4th FG flew P-47's in combat from April 1943 to March 1944, when they converted to Mustangs. In this film, the German Bf109s are actually painted P-51s.

How is this relevant to the article about P-51? Let's name every movie where an airplane was painted like some other airplane, and throw in 500 Ace Combat references while we are at it. The movie is about P-47s, it says so right in the text.

• Battle Hymn, a 1956 film, is based on the real-life experiences of Lt Col Dean E. Hess (played by Rock Hudson) and his cadre of US Air Force instructors in the early days of the Korean War, training the pilots of the Republic of Korea Air Force and leading them in their baptism of fire in F-51Ks.

Haven't seen the film but at least it's about a P-51 unit.

• The 1987 Steven Spielberg film, Empire of the Sun, features the P-51D. A flight of 51s attacks and destroys the Japanese airbase near Soochow Creek Interment Camp, wartime home to the story's protagonist, Jim Graham.

Brief appearance of no notability.

Spielberg's 1998 film, Saving Private Ryan, also features the P-51D, at the end of the final battle in the fictional French town of Ramelle. The small squadron, referred to as "tank busters" by Private Ryan himself, destroys a small detachment of German Tiger I tanks and lends air support to Captain Miller's platoon as they defend a strategic bridge. (The film's website states "P-51s were used instead of the more suitable P-47s, because it is possible P-47s could not be obtained").

The entire scene consists of a 10-frame pass of a pair of P-51s. Is this really notable enough to be included in the article?

I removed the text which was restored by another editor because apparently every P-51 appearance, no matter how short or insignificant, should be documented. To quote the consensus-derived contents guidelines at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content, A "Popular Culture" section should be avoided per Misplaced Pages:Avoid trivia sections in articles unless the appearances are especially notable. This section should not be a compendium of every trivial appearance, but significant ones of relevance to the airframe. The canonical example would be Top Gun for the F-14 Tomcat. Due to the large number of survey and arcade simulations, an effort should be made to avoid tallying every sim appearance unless there are very few of them. Fictional versions and speculation about fictional likenesses should not be included, as they constitute original research. Can I get some opinions on whether irrelevant 5-second film clips constitute notability? - Emt147 18:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Although I tend to agree with the above comments as to the significance of the P-51 in the "film" section, I think a revising of the "Saving Private Ryan" section would be appropriate. How about this: Spielberg's 1998 film, Saving Private Ryan, features the P-51D briefly, at the end of the final battle in the fictional French town of Ramelle, in the destruction of German Tiger I tanks.

I would certainly like to recommend the inclusion of Lady Takes a Flyer, (1958) where a P-51D features prominently in the final sequence when Lana Turner (as Magie Colby) crashes dramatically at the end of a perilous ferry flight to England. Bzuk 05:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

It's fine if it's featured prominently. SPR is still a very soft call IMHO -- the appearance of the P-51 in the scene has no significance (i.e. it could've been a P-39, P-40, P-47, P-63, Il-2, etc.) - Emt147 00:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have added to and ammended the "P-51s in Film" section with appropriate entries. Bzuk 13:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Should a mention be added of the P-51s in Flags of our Fathers? There were more shots of them in that film than there were in Saving Private Ryan.

I wrote the original entry about Battle Hymn. I'm a personal friend and something of a literary protege of Colonel Hess. I wrote that they were F-51Ds, but someone changed it to F-51Ks. A close examination of the propellers of the Mustangs used in the film shows that they were apparently a mix of Ds and Ks. However, records indicate that Colonel Hess's real-life mount, ROKAF #18, was indeed a D. I'm revising this entry as "F-51D/Ks".

Lyle F. Padilla (lpadilla@voicenet.com)

P-51D's representing the Tuskegee Airmen of the 99th Squadron were used in the movie "Hart's War."

Victories and loses..

4,950 aircraft shot down (about half of all USAAF claims in the European theatre), and 4,131 destroyed on the ground. Losses were about 840 aircraft.

--

4,950 air, 4,131 in ground and only lost 840? This is sad, really sad and also has nothing to do with the reality, try to come up with better and more numbers.

1. Germans did not lose this many aircrafts to Mustangs. 2. They shot down and or effected damage which led to write offs to more than 840, several fold.

The Luftwaffe was decimated by the 8th, 9th and 15th AF fighters in 1944-5; that is a fact. In the 18 months or so the P-51 was in action the Luftwaffe in fact inflicted far less losses than the 840 stated; many of these P-51 losses were to flak and ground fire while strafing; see for example the 355th Fighter Group record as evidence (although they also include P-47 losses the principle is proven)- 365 air claims, 505 ground kills, for 191 aircraft lost, of which just 46 losses were due to Luftwaffe fighters, and 83 to flak (and the balance due to non-combat causes) But if you have access to more verifiable figures for kill claims and losses then by all means please share them with us- otherwise the numbers here have to remain (which derive from several sources including the definitive 'The Mighty Eighth' tome.) ]

New Article Vs. Re-write

23:03, 20 December 2006 Bzuk (Talk | contribs) m (Needs a rewrite- how about separating the variants and putting out a new article?)

I personally propose we just incorporate that section into the main article instead of creating another article on the same subject --Signaleer 19:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but let's "tighten it up" as it is a very long article. Bzuk 18:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Good luck! Have fun with that, my hat is off to you! :-D --Signaleer 21:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I made a start- take a look at the article- I incorporated two similar sections and corrected a number of errors in the P-51K section but it still needs work.Bzuk 05:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Survivors

What is the section on Survivors trying to say? It looks to be a listing of aircraft held at an air museum. If so, it coudl use some better formatting and a better explaination. If it is more than that, or somethign else altogether, it definitely needs major rework.

-- Bill 01:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Dark BW lead pics

It is my understanding of WP:Air/PC guidelines that the lead pic (the one in the info box) should be one that shows the aircraft best, from several angles. I prefer to use color pics, period pics or recent, but that's a preferrence, not a requirment.

Recently, I have noticed a trend in articles on older aircraft to replace the color lead pic witha BW one. This in itself is not bad. However, these pics are usually of poorer quality than the ones they replace, mostly commonly being too dark to really see the aircraft well.

I see no reason why this type of dark BW pic should be in the lead in this article, especially whth so many good pics out there (BW and color). However, Signaleer, the only user on Wiki with an exemption from the 3RR policy, added this dark pic himself, and so feels that qualifies the pic for the lead spot on that basis alone.

Talking to him is usually pointless, as he is also the only adult on Wiki, and therefore always right. It's bad enough he reverts any constructive changes made, but he insists on having TWO copies of his pic in the article. But I'm only a child, so I guess I just don't understand that Misplaced Pages is here to do Signaleer's will. - BillCJ 01:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Please refer to comments left on previous post and userpage.

--Signaleer 02:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This is how he responds to people:

We play this game all day, it's your choice. Personally, I recommend we come to a truce. You stay off the pages I work normally work on and I won't touch your precious helicopter pages--savy?--Signaleer 02:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Posted on my talk page.

Rather than deal with the issue at hand, and try to form a consensus, and follow it whether it goes his way or not, he just wants his way! And I'm not the only person he does this to - is this way whenever anyone disagrees with him.

In response, NO! Grow up, and learn to get along with others, even if you don't get your way. If I see something that looks bad on an article, I'm NOT going to check the history first to see who did it. For the record, I had no idea Signaleer posted that pic, or even uploaded, and frankly I DO NOT CARE. Who made the edit has nothing to do with it being a good edit or not. I'm not going to play that game. - BillCJ 03:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh and deleting userboxes off of user pages is not my idea of adult behavior, and I'm not going to start in order to be considered an adult. Nor am I going to revert incessantly, deleting others contrubutions in the process, or search out articles other have edited to insert thumb sizings against WP:AIR consensus. If this is what adult behavior is, as that's what Signaleer claims to be, then I guess I'll never grow up! - BillCJ 03:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Signaleer, this is how Misplaced Pages works. Be bold and make a change with the understanding that it is fair game to be reverted if others disagree with your edit. If and when they revert you, go to the talk page and try to convince them why your change is for the better--maybe some editors will even join up and shout down the reverter. But don't just engage in slow-paced revert wars as I've seen you do so often; remember, the 3RR is not a pass to do three reverts in 24 hrs, it's a definition of the absolute minimum standard of acceptable behaviour.

Now, regarding this particular dispute, Bill has reverted your change to the image. It's hard for me to make a call, but I think I'm going to go for the colour image. They present the aircraft roughly equally well, but colour trumps bw. Karl Dickman  06:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I too prefer the color image. Akradecki 06:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

That's your right to change the image, I can revert all I want.
--Signaleer 16:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

When it's against the consensus view, that's considered vandalism, and if you pursue it enough, will lead to another block. Akradecki 17:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Go cry to someone else about your petty threats Akr.
--Signaleer 17:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

infobox military?

Should this article use Template:Infobox_Military_aircraft? --Gbleem 03:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No article should be using that infobox. It was created outside the scope and community consensus of the WikiProject:Aircraft. - Emt147 05:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

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