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definition

Quackery has existed all throughout human history, and probably pre-dates the emergence of effective medicine.

I don't think you can have quackery without effective medicine. It seems to me that quackery is not merely useless but also presented as an alternative to something that actually works. When the mainstream witch doctor offers me willowbark tea for pain and the alternative witch doctor says I should turn around three times and spit, the alternative witch doctor is a quack. When the only witch doctor tells me to turn around three times and spit, he isn't -- although sooner or later someone's going to try those willows. --Calieber 16:24, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I second Calieber's opinion. -- Khym Chanur 09:17, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

Absolutely. Refer to 'history of medicine.'

POV

The terms "quack" and "quackery" seem rather informal and pejoritive to me, thus making a "Quckery" article POV. Also, there seems to be a great deal of overlap between what is described in the article, and alternative medicine. If there is a difference between quackery and alternative medicine, it should be described clearly at the begining of the article. -- Khym Chanur 09:17, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

This article bothers me too, for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. -- Viajero 10:07, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

There are many articles, such as 'ambulance chaser', that are perjorative, however, they seem to be acceptable for Misplaced Pages encyclopedic entries.

One thing I noticed entirely missing is the other use of the term 'quackery'. It is not just a phrase for overpromising of medical benefit, but also a perjorative term used for an incompetent health professional. jgwlaw 02:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Those making money out of quackery call it alternative medicine; those losing money to alternative medicine call it quackery. :-D

I started this article ages ago when I first discovered Misplaced Pages. It was on the requested articles page and I thought I could write something about it.

Quackery implies the quack is ripping off the customer, like the "snake oil sellers" of the past (patent medicine). This article should be about this practice, and the people involved. It's not a discussion of herbal medicines or anything, it's about the scams.

EXACTLY! Quackwatch is hardly the definitive source for a dfinition of quack or quackery. It is about scams, and scammers, or incompetent medical professionals.jgwlaw 03:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to examine Quackwatch more carefully. Many if not most of the scammers and quacks listed there are MDs. It matters not the profession, it's their actions that get them listed there. The definition used there is the best one available, since it doesn't even focus on the thing or action, but the claims made for that thing or action. (See the bottom of this page. ) False claims are the defining factor. --- Fyslee 07:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The first line does say "unproven, ineffective" "to make money", and i'm not really sure whether the distinction to alternative medicine needs to be made. The article no longer implies much connection between the two. It may have been originally (and still be) slightly POV, in terms of what it calls quackery, but that's potentially fixable. Tristanb 11:31, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well, if it's about scams, then wouldn't the difference between quackery and alternative medicine be that the quack doesn't believe what he practices, while a practicioner of alterative medicine does? If someone selling snake oil actually believes in it, I couldn't consider that a scam.

If we made that sort of distinction, then "psychic surgery" would always be quackery, since the "psychic" surgeon has to use sleight of hand, while accupuncture wouldn't be, since most accupuncturists believe in what they're doing. -- Khym Chanur 12:06, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

Well it is a common knowledge that some shamans and healers in other cultures did made those "psychic" surgery and yet did believe in what they were doing. The fact that the recipient of the treatment believes in one thing and the person who applys it know the "truth" does not make the applier a charlatan in the definition above, sometimes the deception is part of the treatment. Even modern medicine does use placebos from time to time, witch implyes the sane trickery, but instead of chicken guts the doctor gives the pacient a real looking pill that contains nothing. Victor Bogado 12:20, Jan 10, 2006

Is accupuncture considered quackery? I suppose it has been. Maybe my definition of quackery is wrong/imprecise; "scam" may not have been the best word to use. BTW Is psychic surgery ever not quackery?

Is "deceit" a word to use? Are accupuncturists deceiving their clients, even if they believe the process is effective? Deception implies a deliberateness. I should get a dictionary :-) But if deceit can happen without the deceiver knowing it, then that's a word i'd use. Tristanb 00:08, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

“Is accupuncture considered quackery?”

See Quackwatch and Google

"Some studies show up to 80% of people will report an improvement in their condition after taking a sugar pill. " It seems that on a page concerning quackery a reference would be appropriate of such a vauge statement.

I have to say, this article troubles me deeply. It is not just POV, it's a diatribe. As User:Khym Chanur said, even the title is a perjorative term. IMO, the article needs to be rewritten from scratch (And I say this as someone who personally shares the sentiments expressed in the article). RMoloney 16:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Just like there are pious frauds, there are undoubtedly people who believe they are practicing efficacious medicine but are deluding themselves as well as their patients. Whether that amounts to quackery may be a semantic question: in any event, it is not accurate to label anything the AMA doesn't wholeheartedly endorse as "quackery," any more than it would be accurate to label everything the AMA does a result of conflict of interest. There appears to be a group of editors who have found a mission in demonizing everything that doesn't fit into their definition of "science." --Leifern 16:27, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm very upset with this article, it is not only very opinionated it is providing a lot of misinformation. For example I was under the impression that Chiropractic care was no longer considered Quackery. As others have stated I do not believe it is possible for an article on Quackery to be NPOV unless it is written like a dictionary definition and does not seek to label things as Quackeries, seeing as that would be an opinion rather than a fact. Also, don’t alternative medicine and pseudoscience cover similar topics already? I was thinking doesn’t the AMA also have a conflict of interest when determining if something is Quackery? I would like to move for this article to be completely rewritten as RMoloney previously suggested. --Ariadoss 02:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Just as with any fringe science article, the fact that prevailing scientific opinion holds certain treatments to be ineffective is encyclopedic and not a violation of NPOV. I think the article does an admirable job in presenting history. If you dispute a specific section, perhaps the "See also" section, then perhaps you can label that rather than the entire article. --DocJohnny 04:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The definition of quackery suggests that there are con men deliberately deceiving other people. This is often not the case. Generally the quack sincerely believes in his own quackery. But the quack fails apply a scientific method to evaluate his own 'cure' and is very unopen for any suggestion that he may be wrong. Good doctors can believe false things too but they have studied the scientific literature and are open to evidence that they are wrong. Andries

Calieber is right, but not quite on the mark. The necessary requirement for the defintion of "quackery" is an established profession, a guild, of physicians or chemists (who sell medicine). The first mentioning of quackery in Swedish law dates back to 1675, and is a protection for the profession of chemists against competition from amateur practitioners of their trade, i.e. from non-members of their guild. The idea that concern for the public health would be a motive for such laws sounds right to the general public and has therefore been a useful argument, but is merely propaganda from members of the trade, who want to regulate against competition. -- LA2, August 25, 2004

Interesting. Dunno if it's so. Several sites are claiming "quack" came from "quacksalver", supposedly the Germanic "quicksilver", back in the time of the battle of the fillings: "quacks" used mercury amalgams, which were not only poisonous but swelled and split teeth (eventually a bit of tin was added to rememdy that). The original quacks? The American Dental Association. (The American Society of Dental Surgeons faded away because their superior fillings were too expensive.)

The present German for mercury is Quecksilber...but spellings change, and the phonetics are the real point.

Orthodoxy holds it comes directly from Dutch, "quacking salver". Perhaps it's a Dutch pun on mercury pedllers - i unnerstan the Dutch love punning - but it makes the ADA/ASDS story less likely.

It'd be nice to confirm or refute the ADA/ASDS part, in any case. 142.177.169.163 00:02, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The ADA confirms fragments of it:

1833-1850 The Crawcours (two brothers from France) introduce amalgam filling material in the United States under the name Royal Mineral Succedaneum. The brothers are charlatans whose unscrupulous methods spark the "amalgam wars," a bitter controversy within the dental profession over the use of amalgam fillings.

1840 The American Society of Dental Surgeons, the world's first national dental organization, is founded. (The organization dissolves in 1856.)

but the two organisations were not contemporary:

1859 Twenty-six dentists meet in Niagara Falls, New York, and form the American Dental Association. 142.177.169.163 00:10, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Re. placebo: There is now lots of research targeting at the immune system which can be condtioned, thereby establishing a link between the body and the mind. A link we have known for many years without really knowing how it worked. Eg. mice were given a medium strong poison in a sugar solution upon which they felt strong nausea and lost their fur. Six months later they were given just the sugar solution upon which they reacted likewise. /Sigvard Lingh

I found the above text posted by someone who also deleted the See also section. While this study may be true, I'm not sure it belongs in this article. I'm putting it here in case anyone wants deal with it. -Willmcw 00:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Non-neutral tone of the article

The article reads like a diatribe against what the author perceives to be "quackery". Whilst I agree with most of the assertions about what is quakery, the tone of the language makes the article seem less informative and more pointlessly emotional.

This article should be rendered into a more encyclopedic language and into a NPOV piece. Evidence of why various things are generally perceived by medical professionals to be quackery would be useful to this end.

However, I must admit my fascination for this topic and that I believe there is potential for something very interesting.

Rintrah 13:58, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Let's see what we can do. Edwardian 2 July 2005 06:44 (UTC)

I agree also. The points made are difficult to contradict (although I believe that a complete lack of bias is impossible for such an inherently opinionated creature as a human) but the manner in which they are phrased implies quite a distinct dislike for so-called "Quackery" (not sure I agree with the use of this word as the main identifier)which is perhaps inappropriate to an encyclopedia. This is especially true of the opening statements, and the "Modern Quackery" part. There is also an implication (although perhaps my own perception is flawed) throughout the article that a victim of such ineffective/alternate medicine is stupid, that it is their own fault- the point that many arguments made by the purveyors of such treatments can be very convincing needs to be enforced. Similarly, although there is an attempt made at giving arguments for the benefits of so-called Quackery it seems somewhat atrophied in comparison to the majority of the article... to me, anyway. Nevethless, I felt that on the whole it was a well-written article- don't allow my comments (mere opinion, after all) to detract from your acheivement! I just felt that the overall tone is more suited to that of an editorial. 7Munkys 11:37, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I think your observations are spot on and agree there is much still to be changed... in tone and content. I don't think victims of quackery are necessarily stupid, nor do I think quacks are necessarily malevolent (as the original author suggested). Edwardian 22:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I attempted to fix some of the NPOV violations on this page. The page still needs a lot of work, but I think this is at least a step in the right direction... Pikhq 06:22:22, 2005-09-11 (UTC)

It is. Good work! Edwardian 17:13, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not feel this article conforms to NPOV standards. Who has the right to label something as "quackery," perhaps we should list the other articles as "possible forms of quackery." --Ariadoss 01:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

The last part of the Introduction states: "In libel cases in US courts against people who accused others of being guilty of quackery, the courts have ruled that accusing someone of quackery or calling him a quack is not equal to calling him a fraud — that in order to be both a quack and a fraud, the quack has to know that the medical services provided are unproven and ineffective." I don't understand the relevance. It's already clear that "it is often difficult to distinguish between those who knowingly promote unproven medical therapies and those who are mistaken as to their effectiveness", so can we get rid of this? Or can we at least have a couple references for the statement so it can be cleaned up a bit? Edwardian 2 July 2005 08:06 (UTC)

History

The first paragraph of the History section states: "This is not to imply that all shamanism is quackery. The differentiation is real healing versus false hope, regardless of the medical tradition. Often it is difficult to tell the difference." Again, I don't understand the relevance...or even what this means. This article is about what quackery IS, not what shamanism is NOT. Can we get rid of this, or improve the message here? Edwardian 2 July 2005 08:16 (UTC)

do some entries belong?

Going down the list, some of the entries have (at a minimum) a few solid mainstream studies showing that *some* of their claims are correct to *some* extent. Mind you, I'm not talking about their theoretical explanation of how they're supposed to work, just the practical effects. I would put Chiropractic, EMDR, Magnet therapy and Reflexology in this category. I'm not sure that they should be entirely removed from the list since they are definitely controversial, but I don't think it's fair to simply describe them as quackery either. Perhaps a subdivision to the list as "other controversial"? Any thoughts? I'd be happy to dig up some references if there is interest. ObsidianOrder 4 July 2005 16:37 (UTC)

I don't think the incorporating some mainstream ideas entitles the quackery label to be removed for most of the examples, however, I understand the point you are trying to make. The list is currently entitled "See also", but it could be changed to "Other controversial topics" or "Questionable methods" or something similar so that the reader can decide whether or not something is quackery after reading more about it. I did change "Eye related quackery" to "Eye related". Edwardian 4 July 2005 17:12 (UTC)

Chiropractic and the others definitely deserve listing. In fact, a lot more could be added with reference to wiki articles: acupuncture, applied kinesiology, and naturopathy to name a few. JM

I strongly disagree that Chiropractic should be included in this Quackery category. Chiropractic is backed by proven science. Levine2112 03:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess it depends on what you consider "proven science," because I don't believe that it's backed by any science other than pseudoscience. --CDN99 14:38, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of scientific articles referenced in this discussion. They are experiments conducted following the scientific method. Control groups, placebos, random sampling and what-not. This is science. Not magic. Not a religion. Not pseudoscience. Science. Levine2112 20:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

It depends on what kind of chiropractor. The reformist chiropractors who acknowledge chiropractic to only address musculoskeletal issues do practice evidence based chiropractic. They disavoy the claims of their brethren.--DocJohnny 00:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

No. YOu are still ignoring the research that demonstrates chiropractic's effectiveness in promoting general health. Check the links on this page. Levine2112 23:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I respect the reform movement in chiropractic, as all medical practitioners should. I think they practice effective evidence based treatments. If you actually have any studies that prove chiropractic is "effective in promoting general health" other than in improving musculoskeletal function, please share. I am sure the reformist chiropractors would love to hear it. Which links should I look at? I don't see any research revealing this effectiveness. And you have? If you have, point them out in pubmed. Regardless, the fact remains that some chiropractors have been and still are involved in well known quackery as I mentioned above.--DocJohnny 00:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's some research that a quick Google search uncovered: Chiropractic manipulation affects the difference between arterial systolic blood pressures on the left and right in normotensive subjects.. Oh and here's something else: Surrogate Indication of DNA Repair in Serum After Long Term Chiropractic Intervention – A Retrospective Study Do you want more? Oh, and I read this. You said: "A little perspective on pseudoscience and origins. For what it's worth, keep in mind that at the time of the founding of osteopathy, scientific medicine had not quite developed yet. There were no vaccines, no antibiotics. Phlebotomy was still practiced by MD's therapeutically. So it was pseudoscience vs. pseudoscience." Isn't it fair to consider that if MD were practicing what you call "pseudoscience" then and now they are not, then the same could hold true for chiropractors? Oh, and yes some chiropractors may practice what you deem quackery, but the same can be said about MDs. You know, I was sick last year and because of insurance reasons I had to go to an internist. First, he determined that I didn't have a bacterial infection but then prescribed antibiotics nonetheless. Quack! Then he told me that my electrolytes were low and that I should be drinking Coke. Quack! Quack! I told the doctor about SmartWater, a water that can be bought in most grocery stores that has salts added for electrolytes. He said that if he told his patients to drink that, they wouldn't follow his advice. Come on! What a quack! Oh, an incidentally, after the required visit to the MD, I went to my chiropractor and what do you know? I was better the next day. Hmm. Funny how that always seems to work for me. Levine2112 03:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Neither of your articles come close to proving chiropractic improves general health. And as for your quote of my post on someone else's talk page? Of course some chiropractors are no longer practicing pseudoscience. We call them reformists. They even have an [association. As for MD's practicing quackery, we know some do. Attacking MD's is not a defense of chiropractic. --DocJohnny 04:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The fact is, there is scientific research supports the claim that chiropractic promotes general health. I have presented only a fraction of it. Please check Journal of Vertebral Subluxation Research for more and more peer-reviewed SCIENTIFIC research. Science, not fantasy. Not magic. Not religion. And certainly not quackery. Levine2112 04:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

And your examples were of 1) affecting blood pressure for an unspecified time period, which does not necessarily correlate with health and 2) an unproven blood test. There are good evidence based chiropractors out there. That doesn't change the proveable fact that a lot of them are engaged in quackery. --DocJohnny 06:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure we can reach a reasonable understanding. I think the article just needs to be made NPOV, even if there is some sort of official source that considers something a quakcery we should say "Acording to is considered to be a quackery." Or something else to that effect. My main concern is according to *who*? Virtually every source will be opionated, that is my problem with this article. --Ariadoss 09:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Like I have stated earlier, if anyone is arguing for removing the "See also" section entirely as POV, perhaps that should be discussed. --DocJohnny 12:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes! Remove the "See Also" section. And remove any reference to an existing profession from the body of the article as well. As "Quackery" is an aspersion, anything associated with it will consider the association an attack... will consider it unfair... will consider biased. This would be like creating an article called "Idiot" and putting "George W. Bush" and "Dan Quayle" in there. This is all just opinion and conjecture. I would even got so far as saying that the "Quackery" article is inherently a bad article because it leads to juvenile finger-pointing and name-calling. But if it must remain, it should only provide a definition of the word and the history behind it, making no reference to opinions of what some people think is quackery. I think everything there is could be and probably is considered quackery by at least one person in the world. All religions, all political parties, all diets, and yes all healthcare. Show me a belief and I'm sure we can find people who hold that belief to be nonsense. Associating professions with quackery, or making quackery a category with professional subcategories beneath it will only lead to an endless cycle of NPOV disputes (as demonstrated here in this discussion about chiropractic). I propose that we strip down this article to the bare minimum. Define the word. Give it some background. Then move on. Clearly, this article was only created to promote hatred (and that it is doing). The same goes for "Pseudoscience". The term is inherently an attack. It's a biased, opinionate label that is just plain slanderous. It is calling something "fake science". Again, it's like having a category called "Bad" and putting all the things that you think are bad in there. It's all opinion and conjecture and there's no way of controlling NPOV. Levine2112 20:21, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the article should be written more like a definition to maintain objectivity. Some of these things labelled as Quakery are not researched thuroughly enough, for example now Chiropractors are considered legal Doctors when before they were not. Also, anyone can argue the placebo effect (another article with POV issues) even for conventional medicine.--Ariadoss 05:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much everything in the "pseudoscience" and "alternative medicine" categories is likely to be reasonably called quackery. --StoatBringer 19:27, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Exactly! JM

definition

I just want to get some discussion about the definition, which I don't think is really well covered in the article. Perhaps armed with that we can better determine what belongs or doesn't. From several dictionary definitions, it seems to me that there are two components to something being quackery: (1) it is not effective as a medical treatment and (2) it is falsely represented as effective. Specifically, the definitions I'm working from are:

• "Deliberate misrepresentation of the ability of a substance or device for the prevention or treatment of disease" CancerWeb
• "a pretender to medical skill; of, relating to, or characteristic of a quack; especially : pretending to cure diseases" Merriam-Webster
• "An untrained person who pretends to be a physician and dispenses medical advice and treatment.; A charlatan; a mountebank." American Heritage

None of the definitions in any way depend on the theory behind a treatment (e.g. whether it is correct, scientific or supported by evidence), or whether the practitioner believes the treatment to be effective (except the first one which says "deliberate"); they only depend on the treatment's actual effectiveness. Moreover, it is not reasonable to expect that any treatment be effective 100% of the time; therefore to be a "misrepresentation of effectiveness" a supposed quackery practice has to either be very close in effectiveness to placebo, and/or its claimed effectiveness has to be very different from its actual effectiveness, and/or it has to be represented as an equally effective alternative to a treatment which is in fact substantially more effective. Does that sound like a reasonable definition? ObsidianOrder 01:28, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Based on that, what fits and what doesn't? Anything which has never been demonstrated to be effective despite considerable study (homeopathy, ...) automatically fits. Practices which have been demonstrated to be effective for some conditions (acupuncture, chiropractic, ...) may fit depending on whether or not they make exaggerated claims. (Note: a claim which is not supported by sufficient evidence is not necessarily quackery, it has to be falsified by evidence in order to be definite quackery.) Granted, practitioners in those fields sometimes do make exaggerated claims and even claims which have been shown to be wrong. However, you have to consider that on a case-by-case basis. Some practitioners which misrepresent the effectiveness of their treatments may be quacks, and others which don't may be legitimate healers. That doesn't mean the field as a whole can be described as quackery. ObsidianOrder 02:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Chiropractic has not been demonstrated effective for some conditions. Spinal manipulation by a masseur, physical therapist, osteopath, chiropractor, relative or friend is 'probably' effective for alleviating low back pain of short duration. Claims of efficacy for acupuncture are shaky. My opinion is that when the overwhelming majority of claims is unsupported, the whole thing is quackery. If any claim is supported, that claim becomes ordinary medicine. JM

JM - "chiropractic has not been demonstrated effective" and "claims of efficacy for acupuncture are shaky" - you are simply wrong. Please read up on this (PubMed links: chiropractic - 3300 articles, acupuncture - 9700 articles) before making such claims. They are not effective for everything that is claimed, and perhaps not as effective in general as some people claim, but they are very effective for some conditions based on considerable peer-reviewed research (which you can find in PubMed, for example). ObsidianOrder 23:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It is not sufficient to count articles, one must be able to evaluate them. When a quack submits a paper, guess who the "peer reviewers" are. That's right- other quacks! I have examined quack literature, it has the sophistication of a middle-school science project. I stand by my statement and challenge anyone else to study the science and then move any practice from quackery to mainstream (where proven methods exist). JM

JM - yes, I have indeed read a number of these articles. You're right that it is not the article numbers alone. You may not like studies published in "Zhongguo Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi" but I wonder what your objection would be to ones in "Pain" (e.g. ) . "Anaesthesia" (), "Anesthesiology" (), all highly reputable journals? (There are lots more, I'm just picking a few to illustrate here). I don't know what you have examined, because you haven't cited anything specific, you're just throwing around wild accusations. How do you know who the peer reviewers are anyway? (That is generally kept secret by journals.) Also, the opposite of quackery is not "mainstream", it is "effective". Whether something is widely used and accepted has no bearing on whether it is quackery or not. ObsidianOrder 23:22, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Great, you have read articles. Now, are you able to evaluate them? Even "reputable" journals publish nonsense; but scientists evaluate and reject those articles. (I am waiting for the demonstration that chiropractors and acupuncturists can cure multiple sclerosis, as many of them claim). Of course I don't know the individual reviewers of quack articles. That point is merely silly. I can judge the quality of the reviewers who approve the articles, and they are in keeping with the sophistry of the "research."

Depending on his/her particular superstition, an acupuncturist may claim knowledge of more than 2,000 needling locations. How many of those have been adequately established as effective? JM

"are you able to evaluate them?" - yes, as it happens I can. "I can judge the quality of the reviewers who approve the articles" - only if you've read them, which I don't think you have. "How many of those have been adequately established as effective?" - 20-100 depending on your definition of "adequately". However that is for modern studies only; the people who originally discovered these points were (naive) empiricists who kept extensive records, going back a thousand years or so. Traditionally there are only ~400 points, by the way. "sophistry of the "research."" - sophistry of your continued wild accusations, perhaps. You still have to cite a single specific study. Let me help you out there: Acupuncture. NIH Consensus Statement 1997 Nov 3-5; 15(5):1-34 (see the bibliography); and Acupuncture: Review And Analysis Of Reports On Controlled Clinical Trials, World Health Organization, 2002. ObsidianOrder 11:25, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The NIH panel was an assembly of advocates and the resulting consensus was a foregone conclusion that was widely castigated by real health professionals. The WHO often supports folk remedies out of sensitivity for local customs, not evidence of effectiveness. I cannot prove the negative, that quack articles do not adequately support quack remedies. You have been challenged to show the positive- that some claim of acupuncture is supported to the extent that it can be called "medicine." By the way, it is no accident that acupuncture originally featured 365 points. It made sense to the original "empiricists" to match the number of days in a year.

Consider that auriculotherapists make the same claims as acupuncturists; but all the points are in the ear. Acupressurists make the same claims as acupuncturists; but do not use needles. Reflexologists make the same claims as acupressurists; but all the points are on the foot. Therapeutic Touch matches all those claims; but does not require contact. The list goes on a lot longer. Is there anything imaginable that does not work? Or does it make more sense to conclude that these are all merely products of fertile imaginations?

Think about it- 200 years ago all healthcare was quackery and a person's expected lifespan (35 years) was the same whether one subsribed to leeches or homeopathy or acupuncture. Today, you can expect to be healthy past the age of 70. Acupuncture and homeopathy have played no part in those advances. If there were anything to "alternative medicine" (AM) there has been plenty of time to demonstrate it and convert it to "plain medicine." That is why all of AM should be labeled quackery. As we say: AM that works is called "medicine." JM

"widely castigated by real health professionals" - apparently the definition of a quack is "anyone that JM disagrees with". "I cannot prove the negative" - you can start by offering a detailed critique of one of the studies i cited, for example. "You have been challenged to show the positive" - and I have produced a very large body of evidence that shows that. "make the same claims as acupuncturists" - irrelevant to acupuncture itself. "Is there anything imaginable that does not work" - since how acupuncture works is not well understood, there is no a priori reason to assume anything else will not work. any such claims can be tested (and sometimes they have been), and discussed on their own merits. "200 years ago all healthcare was quackery" - riiight. which is why now we look for new drugs isolated from traditional herbal remedies. you may note that there is excellent correlation between what herbs were traditionally thought to be good for and what we think they are good for based on their chemical composition today (in cases where we know what the components are and what they do). you may remember what the traditional remedy for headache was (hint: you probably have some in your medicine cabinet). "expected lifespan (35 years)" - that is a misleading average produced by very high infant and early childhood mortality. the upper quartile was not that different from today's, for example. "Acupuncture and homeopathy" - apples and oranges. one is supported by tons of evidence, the other by next to none. "all of AM should be labeled quackery" - if mainstream medicine were actually willing to use techniques from AM that work, there would be no need for AM. however often they are not, regardless of the evidence, and so we have the current situation. AM is medicine that works but mainstream medicine stubbornly refuses to acknowledge, plus a number of frauds. ObsidianOrder 01:19, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

JM - i have produced hundreds of peer-reviewed studies in reputable publications; you have yet to cite a single specific piece of evidence. obviously you believe what you believe for reasons that don't have anything to do with the facts. further conversation on this basis is pointless. ObsidianOrder 01:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Clearly, I am overmatched by your intellect and education. I leave the field in your possession. JM

Iatrogenic deaths

It is very intereting to see what is labeled as a quackery. Some mainstream providers use their power of being mainstream to label with "Quackery" many treatments that are far more efficient. For all of those that label acupuncture, homeopathy, herbalisam and many other great therapies as quackery, I would love to chellenge them to provide a nice label for the fact that "Orthodox therapies now kill over 250,000 hospital patients a year, ranking 3rd as a leading cause of death in the U.S." What is a quackery nowdays? Here is some interesting reading for those that are quackery labelers http://drtong.com/problem.html http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/7/healthcare_death.htm Enjoy your reading Karen Lee

• Actually, the claim that "orthodox therapies now kill over 250,000 hospital patients a year" is not a fact. That smug claim has spread like a virus from one alternative medicine website to another (as demonstrated above), but its origins are merely a context-dropping distortion of figures cited in Dr. Barabara Starfield's commentary in JAMA, "Is US Health Really the Best in the World" in which she estimates that there are "225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes". Although that terrible figure indicates much needs to be done to improve healthcare in the United States, those who toss it around without full understanding should realize that "orthodox therapies" and "iatrogenic causes" are not one and the same. Edwardian 20:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

that was 780,000 allopathic iatrogenic deaths by that article, and 120,000 is the lowest I have come across. You only have to ask how many would be killed by Naturopathic herbalism, or Orthomolecular medicine (a proven replacement for drug medicine)---a handful or none from a proper qualified doctor of those therapies. And when you know cancer chemo is only effective for 5% of patients but given to 50%, you don't have to be a genius to do the maths. john 19:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Edwardian - I understand your point that iatrogenic causes is not literally the same as "orthodox therapies", but I'm not sure why the distinction is significant. Perhaps you can elaborate? One of the key elements of the definition of quackery is misrepresentation. Do "orthodox therapies" misrepresent their risks? Arguably, in light of that number, yes. ObsidianOrder 23:29, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding: "I understand your point that iatrogenic causes is not literally the same as 'orthodox therapies', but I'm not sure why the distinction is significant. Perhaps you can elaborate?" The distinction is very significant because of this: "Orthodox therapies now kill over 250,000 hospital patients a year" implies that the deaths are primarily due to the proper adminstration of those therapies, whereas "225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes" implies that the deaths are primarily due to other factors including errors or the improper administration of those therapies. Regarding: "One of the key elements of the definition of quackery is misrepresentation. Do 'orthodox therapies' misrepresent their risks? Arguably, in light of that number, yes." Are you able to offer specific evidence to support that claim because I don't interpret those numbers the same way? Risk need not be misrepresented for an iatrogenic injury or death to occur. If patients are being lied to about the efficacy or risks of a specific therapy, perhaps it should be listed in this article. Edwardian 05:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, I see what you mean. I guess it depends on how much of that total comes from proper administration and how much from improper, doesn't it? I would also argue that even if most of this comes from improper treatment, a certain level of human error (and treatment that can be seen as improper only in hindsight) is inevitable, but how serious the results of such errors are depends to some extent on whether that treatment is inherently risky or prone to risky mistakes. "specific evidence" - I'll dig for that when I have some free time. I do remember a study that correlated several statistics with negative iatrogenic results and also with overall outcomes - the conclusion was that there is an optimum level of treatment (i.e. length of hospital stay, volume of drug prescriptions) that maximizes positive effects but minimizes iatrogenic negative effects, and that level is considerably lower than the typical level in most areas in the US. I'll see if I can find that study. ObsidianOrder 07:47, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Misdiagnosis, or application of the wrong treatment, can cause iatrogenic harm without being unorthodox. However, if a doctor eschews proven therapy and kills you by treating Hodgkins lymphoma with laetrile, that is iatrogenic, it is also malpractice. If a naturopath does the same, it is business as usual. Perhaps that is a subtle difference. JM

Give the naturopath some credit first. Allow the profession the respect it deserves. Accredidate universities that teach it. Allow it to be recognized federally, licensed and sanctioned. Allow insurance companies to pay for homeopathic treatments. Call it medicine, not quackery. After that, you can put it on the same legal ballpark as an MD. Levine2112 05:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Definition?

The introductory sentence is illogical:

Quackery, is the practice of producing medicine which may lack any commonly respected evidence of their effectiveness.

If that's the true definition, then "Homeopathy is quackery" is true and NPOV! Using the definition above, "Homeopathy is quackery" translates to "Homeopathy may lack any commonly respected evidence of their effectiveness", which is true and NPOV. QED. But this is backwards. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Does not the "maybe" or the "scientists think" part belong in the connection between treatments and quackery, instead of the quackery definition? Like this:

Quackery, is the practice of producing medicine which lacks any evidence of effectiveness.

Homeopathy is held to be quackery by most scientists.

This article is about quackery! It's about something that does not have an effect beyond placebo! There is no question of whether quackery works. The question is whether the label "quackery" is applicable to something. I'll change the sentence. --Hob Gadling 09:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• As ObsidianOrder suggested at the beginning of the previous section, falsely representing an ineffective remedy as effective is also part of the definition. Indeed "boaster" is part of the original translation. I'm going to update the definition from: "Quackery is the practice of producing medicine which lacks any evidence of effectiveness." to "Quackery is the practice of promoting medicine which lacks any evidence of effectiveness." Edwardian 20:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Definition 2

Practitioners of alternative medicine (defined as non-allopathic medicine) say the term is used to persecute doctors practicing alternative medicine, as this quote points out:

"The War Against Quackery is a carefully orchestrated, heavily endowed campaign sponsored by extremists holding positions of power in the orthodox hierarchy.....The mutimillion-dollar campaign against quackery was never meant to root out incompetent doctors; it was, and is, designed specifically to destroy alternative medicine...The millions were raised and spent because orthodox medicine sees alternative, drugless medicine as a real threat to its economic power. And right they are...the majority of the drug houses will not survive."--Dr Robert Atkins, M.D.

Gerson

Followers of this kind of topic might like to check put Max Gerson and Gerson therapy. I don't know enough about the topic to edit them, but I can see at least that they're blatantly POV, being primarily written by a proponent of the therapy. Tearlach 13:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

At least he knows what he is talking about, Gerson was curing 50% of terminal cancers according to the research available. To call Gerson a quack is to buy into the Medical Industry propaganda. john 19:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

A naturopath did a followup study on people who received this miracle 50% cure. At 5 years, out of 21 patients, only 1 was alive and the survivor still had cancer. Austin S, Dale EB, DeKadt S. Long-term follow-up of cancer patients using Contreras, Hoxsey and Gerson therapies. Journal of Naturopathic Medicine 5(1):74-76, 1994.--DocJohnny 20:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Civility

I have been reading through the above discussions and am quite shocked at the abbrasive behaviour of a/some user/s. Please bear in mind that personal attacks are not allowed and you must try and be civil at all times. Please can all parties taking part in the above discussions (not arguments - try and keep calm) take a step back and calm down before admins get involved and start blocking people -localzuk 13:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The very nature of the article "quackery" is uncivil as it is a pejorative label. Assigning that label to any group is most certainly an attack and will typically result in an equal but opposite recourse. I think the best things we can do is remove all mention of any groups (religious, professional, political) that some people feel deserve the derisive "quackery" label, because name-calling always results in NPOV (and bitterness and anger). Let's define "quackery", give its history and move on. Levine2112 00:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand your comment but have to say that in this case I feel you are slightly wrong. If an article is npov, the best way to fix it is to discuss calmly with people - a comment about a profession is not a personal attack and should not be treated as such. I would suggest that launching into a name calling agument is not constructive and that the time could be better suited by re-writing the article as a temporary version and directing the viewers of the talk page to it for comment.

Remember, just because one user did something wrong does not give another user the right to become uncivil and launch personal attacks. -localzuk 00:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Attacking an entire profession, religion, or political view is not personal. It's bigger than one person. And name-calling - like "quackery" - is not constructive. So please let me know if you are in favor of:

1. Removing any accusations that a particular group has been deemed as "quacks"
2. Defining "Quackery" with unbiased terms
3. Including a factual history of the term "quackery"

I believe that as the article stands right now, would be satisfactory in doing all three of these (now that references to specific professions have been removed as well as the "See Also" category.

Levine2112 00:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

And will you be removing the personal attacks above? --DocJohnny 02:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Should I remove yours while I'm at it? Levine2112 02:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. Levine2112 03:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I am in favour of the article not attacking a profession. However, this isn't a 'carte blanche' to remove all criticisms from the article. If the term is used commonly to describe a profession - it should be included and reliable references given (ie. not competitors of that industry but independant organisations). If these cannot be found (which I believe will be the case) then they should not be included.

I also would like to say that your response did not cover a large chunk of my comment - still focusing on the specifics of the article rather than the overriding fact that being uncivil and personally attacking people is not good. -localzuk 09:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, I agree with you. Being uncivil and personally attacking people is not good. That's why we walk on a slippery slope when we have articles about pejorative terms. That's also why I went back and cleaned up all of the personal attacks made by myself and user DocJohnny in the discussion above. As far as including professions that are commonly described as quackery - I think that's too difficult to determine. For instance, there are a lot of organizations out there that claim to be independent and bash chiropractic, when in actuality they are all part of a anti-chiropractic network run by a biased MD (Stephen Barrett) and his cronies. It is rumored that they secretly get funding from the AMA to bash chiropractic and other medicines that threaten the income of MDs and pharmaceutical companies. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say for sure, but it is evident that are gunning to bring down chiropractic using clever and not so clever tactics all over the web (including Misplaced Pages). Levine2112 18:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

As is apparent in the history, none of my comments which were removed without permission were personal attacks, but rather statements of opinion regarding certain professions, objections to attacks, and some completely innocuous comments. There is a huge difference between stating an opinion on broad subjects and attacking another user personally. --DocJohnny 07:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Definition problems

To the extent that this article is intended to inform the public about a) the existence of quackery, and b) enable them to make informed decisions about the kind of medical care they seek, we have to be pretty precise. If we are to define quackery as treatments (never mind whether they are medical or not), the efficacy of which are "unproven," we are treading in tricky waters. Pharmaceutical companies and others who one would not typically characterize with "quacks" are very careful about stating their claims, typically by saying "in a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 40 of 60 study patients reported relief in their headache symptoms within 3 hours of taking the medicine, compared with 10 out of 50 control patients. This study was corrected for blah blah blah." In other words, the efficacy is always claimed very narrowly to make it clear what is proven and what isn't. As it turns out, the knowledge of medicine is constantly evolving for broader or narrower claims as evidence to support those claims becomes available. My point is that "proven" or "unproven" is not a binary condition - those who advocate, let's say, distilled water as treatment for warts (to state what I would imagine is an absurd example), may claim that their treatment is proven because in their experience distilled water works in this way. They would further say that just because they can't afford a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study doesn't mean that their observations are false or invalid. (This, incidentally, is why off-label prescriptions are not automatically labelled "quackery.")

The distinctions we are struggling with are those between:

• Proven - and if so, precisely what has been proven.
• Unconvincingly asserted - might be true, but hasn't been tested with a gold standard trial.
• As yet unproven - assumed to be true, but not fully tested
• Unlikely, given efforts to prove - efforts have been made to prove using gold standard trials, but there is no evidence to support the hypothesis
• Unlikely to be proven - the most problematic category, because who is to know?

Which of these constitutes quackery? --Leifern 16:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, since quackery is defined rather vaguely, any or all of those can be defined as quackery. Although there are formalized levels of evidence in medicine:

• • Ia Evidence from meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials
  • Ib Evidence from at least one randomised controlled trial
  • IIa Evidence from at least one controlled study without randomisation
  • IIb Evidence from at least one other type of quasi-experimental study
  • III Evidence from descriptive studies, such as comparative studies, correlation studies and case-control studies
  • IV Evidence from expert committee reports or opinions, or clinical experience of respected authority or both.

These are the levels of positive evidence, I don't think you can really grade negative evidence. However quackery usually has connotations of intention and financial gain. But that may be regional.--John| 17:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

My personal view is that quackery involves some level of misrepresentation. The worst case of this would be if a practitioner suggests a treatment that he/she knows won't work, which is hard to prove. But it would also include exaggerating the extent to which efficacy has been proven. --Leifern 19:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

May I suggest that we get away from attempting to define "what" is quackery? Any thing or practice can be considered quackery, if false claims are being made for its use in a given situation. In another situation the same thing or practice can be perfectly legitimate.

To illustrate the point I'll use "massage":

• Claim: Massage is effective for the relief of tense and sore muscles in the neck and shoulder regions, and thereby is useful for the relief of tension headaches.

• Claim: Massage is effective as a cure for cancer and AIDS.

The same method, but the "quackery" verdict is quite different.

This is why Barrett's definition is so useful, since it avoids these pitfalls:

To avoid semantic problems, quackery could be broadly defined as "anything involving overpromotion in the field of health." This definition would include questionable ideas as well as questionable products and services, regardless of the sincerity of their promoters. In line with this definition, the word "fraud" would be reserved only for situations in which deliberate deception is involved.

Quackery is more about false claims (overpromotion), than it is about things. If the whole "definitions" section concentrates on this point, I think it will save much grief. -- Fyslee 22:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Examples

Is there any use in adding the example of laetrile (sp?)? That immediately comes to mind when I think of quackery. jgwlaw 03:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed. In fact, the whole Mexican quack clinics thing could also be dealt with. -- Fyslee 04:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not very knowledgeable about this. Perhaps you, or someone more familiar with all this, could help add this? I only know generally about the bogus cancer 'treatment' laetrile and how people flocked to it out of desperation, risking their lives. I really don't know any more than that, about the Mexican quack clinics etc. jawesq 02:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I found an article on laetrile at Quackwatch.org that looks interesting. I also found a page from National Cancer Institute on it. I added an external link to the NCI page, since Quackwatch is already referenced. The NCI article is interesting. It appears that very little study was done on this drug, and what clinical studies were done did not have a control group! This is bizarre. One would think that a proper study would have been done on this - I assumed it had, and found laetrile ineffective. Of course, it was never shown to be effective, either.jawesq 02:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Bingo! You've pointed out the key issue - the burden of proof is on the claimant. Skeptics and scientists are under no burden to prove Laetrile (or any other method or claim) ineffective. Its proponents just have to prove it works and it'll get accepted. It's a matter of risk/benefit ratio. -- Fyslee 16:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That is certainly true in a court. And, it is true with the FDA, as well - for approval, the drug/product/device must be proven safe and effective, not the converse. The problem with this, then, gets into funding and who is willing to fund research. Generally, it is manufacturers who stand to make a profit (patent) such products. Recent articles in the New York Times have discussed various conflicts of interest that government scientists have had, as well. And that is a problem. But that is another discussion.jawesq 16:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Main stream medicines is quackery

"Quackery is a derogatory term used to describe the unethical practice of promising health-related benefits for which there is little or no basis"; Definition on top of page, this is what the header proves. I'll continue to put it there because is seems the attributers on this page take the right to criticize every alternative health subject, but seem intolerant of critics when "science" is criticized. Again unless there is some acknowleddgement of this FACT, I'll put it there without discussion. --Homy 07:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the section "When mainstream medicines becomes quackery" as frank disinformation. DMP is not relevant to quackery, this doesn't refer to any medicine or treatment but to the efficiency of a delivery system. The section on antidepressants starts with a wholly false (and potentially dangerously irresponsible) assertion that "In general antidepressants fail to give meaningful advantages." supported by a non-peer reviewed non RS source. Disputes about the relative efficacy of some medicines do not make these quack remedies; medicines are regularly replaced as more effective specific treatments are introduced; their introduction is carefully regulated and they are evaluated on the basis of controlled trials. Gleng 16:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I fear that Homy misunderstands the subject at hand. Scientific disputes and uncertainties, the failings of physicians, malpractice, substandard practice, etc.., are not themselves quackery, although they may lend themselves to it and often are involved in it. They are important concerns, just as iatrogenesis is a legitimate concern. They can be described in detail in appropriate articles, but they aren't quackery. -- Fyslee 23:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

WHO: "Therefore, in considering DMPs as a strategy to improve quality of care and to tackle unacceptable variations in practice, such programmes should be introduced only in controlled settings where it is possible to evaluate their costs and benefits". unacceptable variations in practice fits the definition of quackery. health fraude by manifacturers fits the definition. The application of SSRIs and Paxil without proper guidance fits the definition. Suicites after using the drug, is not curing, fits the definition. I'm sorry if I attact the holy cow named: "Medical science". --Quasarq 16:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the relation of this User:Quasarq to User:Homy? Are we talking to one person here or two? Either way, a DMP is a disease management programme - i.e. it is a protocol for delivery of health care to a community; this is an issue of how best to deliver health care and has nothing to do with the efficacy of the treatments themselves, only about the varying efficacy and diffences in cost-effectiveness of different management approaches. It has absolutely no point of contact with quackery whatsoever. Drugs that have side effects are not quackery either; they are effective drugs with side effects. It is often to be expected that a drug which is effective will also have side effects; generally, only drugs that are wholly ineffective have no side effects.Gleng 16:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The definition of quackery is good. The interpretation who or what is involved will always be a point of difference and I think this discussion is senseless because there is no concede whatsoever. By the why, the citations are better than the whole article. --Quasarq 16:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition of quackery and quack

The definitions provided by online dictionaries are actually very good and have the advantage of being independant sources. More NPOV. NATTO 03:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Questionable references

I removed the paragraph about "health fraud" usually being used. I have never seen that in articles, newspapers, insurances releases about MDs who rip people off and exhibit bad behaviour. It always says that so-and-so MD has committed fraud and is being sent to prison.

Also, the reference was to a site called Quackwatch, and the article was written by an ex-psychiatrist, Stephen Barrett, who, according to the talk pages on an article about him, he failed his psychiatric boards, yet failed to mention this "minor detail" while being paid as an expert witness in psychiatric matters in the legal arena. According to the WP article on Quackery, this falls under the definition of Quackery: "A "quack" is "a fraudulent or ignorant pretender to medical skill. A person who pretends, professionally or publicly, to have skill, knowledge, or qualifications he or she does not possess; a charlatan." Quackery So it begs the question, if he was engaged in quackery, how could his viewpoint be considered reliable? Of course, it could be argued that if he practiced quackery, then he certainly could be considered having some degree of expertise in it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steth (talk • contribs) 10:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

(Sorry, forgot to sign, I'm tired) Steth 10:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I did a revert to the vandal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.85.160.11 (talk • contribs)

I got a message on my talk. Someone left me a message to support vandalism. It may be what is called a sockpuppet. Who in their right mind would support vadalism. A sockpuppet. Someone should put a block on both accounts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.85.160.11 (talk • contribs)

I am asking you not to claim vandalism without just cause. User:Steth gave cause for making the edit which you reverted. May I suggest that you read up on WP:VAN and learn Misplaced Pages's definition of vandalism. Levine2112 03:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The vandal supporter is back. What a jerk. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.85.160.11 (talk) 03:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Please avoid ad hominem attacks. Comment on the edits and not on the editor. Thank you. Levine2112 03:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Levine. I thought my reasons were perfectly legitmate and need to be discussed. Perhaps 69.85.160.11 doesn't understand that nightmares are not a reliable source. Steth 12:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

One man's "nightmare".... is your POV. Fine. Just don't push it onto Misplaced Pages. NPOV requres that all significant POV be presented. Just because you don't like Barrett (you're not the only one), doesn't negate the fact that he's considered to be a top expert on the subject by many others (most notably among the mainstream scientific and medical world, as well as consumer protection organizations), so your nightmare is not the only POV, nor is it shared by all others. POV suppression is not allowed here. Be an inclusionist. -- Fyslee (First law) 12:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia talk pages fail WP:RS.Geni 13:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm quite confused. Fyslee claims that "POV suppression is not allowed here." I had understood that Misplaced Pages was not about POV but verifiable facts. The term "quackery" is totally subjective, pejorative, and who is and who is not a "quack" is just one's opinion. I don't believe these non objective quackery discussions belong on Misplaced Pages at all since it's so subjective. So someone please, is Fyslee being correct in his claim? Thank you. Ilena 20:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)