Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:59, 1 December 2021

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 2 months

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article was nominated for deletion on December 16, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics: American Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative views Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Death Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Dallas-Fort Worth (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dallas-Fort Worth, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Dallas-Fort WorthWikipedia:WikiProject Dallas-Fort WorthTemplate:WikiProject Dallas-Fort WorthDallas-Fort Worth Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. History Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States: Presidents / Texas / Government Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject United States Presidents (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Texas (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as High-importance).

Archives

Archives under current page name John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories 1: Nov 2004 - Sep 2006 2: Oct 2006 - Mar 2010 3: Apr 2010 - May 2012 4: May 2012 - Sep 2014 5: Sep 2014 - current Archives under previous page names Kennedy assassination theories 1: Jun 2006 2: Jul 2006 - Aug 2006 3: Sep 2006 Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories 1: Feb 2005 - Jan 2006 2: Jun 2006 - Oct 2006

This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

"Background" section to "Circumstantial evidence of a cover-up" full of unsubstantiated claims

Someone has plonked down what purports to be the rationale for the Warren Commission - trouble is, that rationale seems to be pulled straight from a conspiracy theory - about a second Oswald in Mexico City. So the section needs to be substantially rewritten - or removed.

With the information that someone had been impersonating Oswald, President Johnson expressed concern that the public might come to believe that Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev and/or Cuban leader Fidel Castro was implicated in the assassination — a situation that Johnson said might lead to "... a war that kill 40 million Americans in an hour". Johnson relayed his concern to both Chief Justice Earl Warren and Senator Richard Russell, telling them that they could "serve America" by joining the commission Johnson had established to investigate the assassination

It appears that a lot of this is taken whole cloth from a Frontline article by John Newman, but nowhere does it say that these are the conclusions of the author. This is the OPINION of the author who wrote the article, it is not a FACT. While there are sources which will back up the part about Johnson's fears of the Soviets and /or Cubans being blamed, and a risk of a nuclear war to follow, to suggest this was also driven by the "truth" of an Oswald impersonator is merely the opinion of an author, let alone that there was in fact an imposter, a highly disputed claim.

Therefore this entire "background" section needs to be substantially rewritten or removed. Beyond the implied rationale for Johnson creating the WC, most of the documents I see linked to here were released with the HSCA's Lopez Report back around 1996, part of the release of previously top secret documents surrounding the assassination. And that report - written by staff members hunting a conspiracy - said the evidence was not sufficient to conclude there was an Oswald imposter. That release was eagerly anticipated by conspiracy theorists at the time as it was purported to be a smoking gun that revealed the CIA etc knew there was a second Oswald. In fact, it revealed that the evidence showed that it was most likely indeed Oswald who visited the embassies in question, not an imposter, though the latter possibility could not be ruled out. And this was by staff who had direct access to many of the people in question.

Yet the section basically treats the imposter theory as fact. As with any of the other conspiracy theories on the page, claims should be couched along the line of, "authors claim..." or "one theory suggests..." In terms of this, the very existence of an imposter itself isn't clear as to WHY there'd be an imposter - an entire page could be spent on what an imposter might mean in terms of the assassination, indeed, a real imposter might have nothing at all to do with the assassination, but something to do with the KGB throwing the CIA off certain scents, for example. And any cover-up of any knowledge of this more to do with institutional "cover your ass" when your surveillance subject kills the president, than with some nefarious plot said agency was involved with. Just sayin. Canada Jack (talk) 20:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

In fact, Johnson's concern about about an Oswald impersonator in Mexico implicating the Soviets or Cubans, and possibly inciting a nuclear war, comes from an audio recording of Johnson's telephone conversation with Senator Richard Russell. (click on reference)

BrandonTRA (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Read the transcript. He doesn't say anything about the Oswald impersonator, he does mention Hoover and refers to an incident which seemed to link the Soviets and Cubans to Oswald. If it WASN'T Oswald, wouldn't that exonerate the Soviets and Cubans? Because at that point everyone was sure Oswald was the sniper. Just saying. What Johnson DOES say is talk about the Cubans and Soviets possibly being behind this could lead to a war - and that it was therefore Russell's patriotic duty to serve on the commission. Again, who is claiming that Johnson's motivation to form the commission had anything to do with an Oswald impersonator? Knowing Johnson, he likely DIDN'T think the Cubans and Soviets had anything to do with this, because he knows people and he knew the leadership of either country would not be so catastrophically stupid to do something like that.

So, the section has to be rewritten to excise the unsubstantiated claim that Johnson was compelled to form the commission at least in part because of the Oswald impersonator issue. Indeed, the basic question most people would ask is... why is this important in the first place? It certainly doesn't seem to imply that the Cubans and Soviets were somehow MORE culpable because some guy was pretending to be Oswald - where is the logic here? For most conspiracists, the impersonator was likely someone involved with the American intelligence agencies, not the Cuban or Soviets - so Johnson would have thought "CIA" before he thought "communists." On the other hand, the fact that Oswald or not-Oswald was talking to the Soviets/Cubans ITSELF was an issue which could spark a conflict as it might seem to implicate the Soviets/Cubans. And that was hardly a secret, therefore that notion had to be quashed. Canada Jack (talk) 01:38, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that this FRINGE claim should be removed and replaced with the mainstream reasoning for the commission (firstly, to have a definitive, authoritative, timely, and as complete as possible investigation into JFK's death, and secondly, to substantiate or invalidate any possible links between Oswald, the Soviets, the Cubans, and espionage. We were on the brink of war, and Congress wanted to know if it was a war worth waging). We need to insert his content using reliable secondary sources like these: . And not get drawn in or hoodwinked by conspiracists and charlatans who are re-writing the history of the months after the assassination, after which stories changed and narratives mutated and diverged. Like how all these things happen to create space for conspiracies. — Shibbolethink 02:21, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

From the audio recording of Johnson's telephone conversation with Senator Richard Russell:

LBJ to Senator Richard Russell (November 29): Well you want me to tell you the truth? You know what happened? Bobby and them went up to see him today and he turned them down cold and said "no." Two hours later I called him and ordered him down here and he didn't want to come. I insisted he come, he came down here and told me no twice and I just pulled out what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City and I say now, 'I don't want Mr. Khrushchev to be told tomorrow and be testifying before a camera that he killed this fellow and that Castro killed him and all I want you to do is look at the facts and bring in other facts you want in here, and determined who killed the President and I think you'd put on your uniform of World War I, fat as you are, and do anything you could to save one American life. And I'm surprised that you the Chief Justice of the United States would turn me down.' And he started crying and said, well I won't turn you down. I'll just do whatever you say, but he turned the Attorney General down.

LBJ to Senator Richard Russell (November 29): Dick, it has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour and you would put on your uniform in a minute. Now the reason I've asked Warren is because he is the Chief Justice of this country and we've got to have the highest judicial people we can have. The reason I ask you is because you have that same kind of temperament and you can do anything for your country and don't go giving me that kind of stuff about you can't serve with anybody--you can do anything. -- BrandonTRA (talk) 05:59, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Are you suggesting this be entered into the article? If so, then I believe WP:DUE applies, and I don't think the conclusions you're drawing from this are any more substantiated here than they already are in the article. And if not, then WP:FORUM applies, and it should be collapsed on those grounds. — Shibbolethink 09:43, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

JFK's brain

I removed this sentence from the lead because it gives credence to debunked conspiracy theories about JFK's murder: "In 1998, the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) unearthed inconsistencies in the prior investigations, and the Board's chief analyst for military records contended that the brain photographs in the Kennedy records were probably not of Kennedy's brain". Yodabyte (talk) 02:42, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I restored the sentence from the lead because no "debunking" evidence has been provided. 24.234.77.218 (talk) 11:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

It is the burden of those attempting to add content to do so with a reliable source, not the other way around. See WP:BURDEN. The Fetzer source is very likely not reliable. There are already good sources here, why should we persist in referencing a holocaust denier and all around not-credible conspiracy theorist? — Shibbolethink 01:56, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Why are there so many mentions of Fetzer in the article? Fetzer should not be mentioned unless he is discussed in RS. We document conspiracy theories by using what RS say about them and their promoters, not by using the unreliable sources of the promoters of the theories. The only exception is in the biography of the subject, in this case Fetzer, and then according to the limitations mentioned at WP:ABOUTSELF. Otherwise, unreliable sources must never be used because, with that one exception, all content here is based on RS. I'm going to take a stab at removing some of the most egregious mentions. -- Valjean (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, and thanks for auditing, —PaleoNeonate – 14:26, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely agree, and there was also some content from Gary Aguilar (an ophthalmologist claiming to have expertise on autopsies -- which as a person with medical training is just absurd) sourced to consortiumnews. A quick search of RSN shows consortiumnews to have a consensus against reliability, so I'm removing that content as well. The actual statements from Aguilar may be WP:DUE for this article, but only if they are found in WP:RSes, not consortiumnews. — Shibbolethink 16:15, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Note: Fetzer's books are not self published -- ASIN ‏: ‎0812694228; Publisher ‏: Open Court -- no evidence given the Fetzer's books are unreliable. -- BrandonTRA (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not very familiar with that publisher, but it appears to be a religious-oriented one, with Fetzer reported by various sources as a conspiracy theorist. His field appears to also be philosophy rather than ballistics, —PaleoNeonate – 21:36, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The article should not rewritten by declaring any sources and content that certain editors don't want in the article as FRINGE, and then deleting said sources and content (as in the case of deleting material from University of Minnesota professor emeritus James Fetzer and his published books). The claim that those opposed to such deletions have the burden to prove that content is not fringe are without merit. It is a well known proposition that you can't prove a negative and, therefore, proving that something is not FRINGE becomes a futile exercise.

Here is the proper course of action regarding disputed information (WP:INACCURATE), according to Misplaced Pages guidelines:

WP:INACCURATE

If there is a possibility that the information may be accurate, but there is uncertainty, add after the statement. This will add to the finished version, encouraging readers and editors to discuss the matter.

-----------------------------------

Misplaced Pages Guidelines

Misplaced Pages:Neutrality of sources

Misplaced Pages articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. -- BrandonTRA (talk) 20:51, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

we operate via consensus on which sources are reliable. In this case, both prior consensus and the consensus of editors here and on various noticeboards is that these sources are not reliable. So the removal of content sourced only to them and unlikely to be sourced elsewhere is entirely in order and keep with WP:PAGs. — Shibbolethink 23:53, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Have seen no good evidence presented so far that the deleted sources are unreliable, nor has there been anything presented so far that a consensus has been reached that deleted sources are unreliable. According to Misplaced Pages guidelines, the proper procedure is not to delete contested sources, but rather to tag contested sources with the template (see above). -- BrandonTRA (talk) 01:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

no, that tag is one of several options. It is not the only option. WP:INACCURATE is a user essay and therefore not a part of Misplaced Pages's WP:PAGs and is not binding or a rule in any way. — Shibbolethink 03:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

What was the justification for removing the following sourced material, and where is the alleged consensus for doing so?

However, when researcher and ophthalmologist Gary Aguilar, examined the interviews of the Bethesda witnesses, which were declassified in the 1990s, he found that these witnesses also agreed that there was a large, avulsive hole in the rear of Kennedy’s skull, suggesting an exit wound and that Kennedy was hit from the front. -- BrandonTRA (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Consortiumnews is considered “generally unreliable” for statements of fact, see WP:RSP and the many associated WP:RSN discussions about this website.

Aguilar is also an ophthalmologist. He has no expertise in gunshot wounds, autopsies, or forensic interviewing. So asserting him as an expert falls afoul of WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink 17:48, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

You offer no evidence to the claim that Consortium News is unreliable. Moreover, Dr. Aquilar is not cited as an expert witness, but as a researcher presenting an opinion.

Misplaced Pages guidelines -- "Reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." -- BrandonTRA (talk) 18:30, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The evidence is in the consensus found within discussions of wikipedia editors on WP:RSN and summarized on the WP:RSP page. Opinions of random "researchers" are not indiscriminately added to wikipedia articles. They must be WP:DUE, meaning they are found with frequency within sources considered "reliable." Consortiumnews is not considered reliable, ergo Aguilar is not WP:DUE. — Shibbolethink 01:48, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Your invented category of "random researchers" is nowhere to be found in any of Misplaced Pages's guidelines. -- BrandonTRA (talk) 07:07, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

The appropriate policy would be WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink 09:42, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Your invented category of "random researchers" is nowhere to be found under WP:FRINGE. -- BrandonTRA (talk) 13:49, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Posner

User Shibbolethink removed my edits and claimed that Posner's 1993 book "Case Closed" is unreliable. I find this claim incredible, as it is widely acknowledged that this book, along with Bugliosi's book, is the definite account of the Kennedy assassination. Posner's book is used multiple times as a source in this article. Should we remove all references to this book? Virtuus (talk) 18:12, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

One cannot only ask "is this source blanket reliable" it must also ask "Is this source reliable for this content" and "Is this source reliable for making this content WP:DUE for this article?"Personally, I believe the source is, in general, reliable, and reliable for this content. But that it is not the only useful source for determining what is DUE. My reversion was not very clear in that regard. So far that, I apologize. To explain further: we already mention this person, we mention his theories about Marcello, does this source, which is generally reliable, determine that this content is DUE in addition to what we already have? Not exactly. We would need to see how often this level of depth is mentioned in the landscape of all WP:RSes about the assassination. — Shibbolethink 18:17, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

The HSCA produced hundreds of pages examining Oswald's alleged mob connections (Link to report). All major books challenging JFK mob conspiracy theories examine the validity of these connections (Posner, Bugliosi). I won't revert your edit again, but I don't understand the problem with the content I added. Virtuus (talk) 18:51, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the mob connection theory is interesting and clearly DUE. But the question is not "should we talk about the mob connection conspiracy theory?" but instead: "should we talk about it to this depth?" The operative question, then, is: Do the breadth of many different secondary sources discuss it to this depth? — Shibbolethink 20:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. The head investigator of HSCA, G. Robert Blakey, published his own book on his view of that investigation and on his theories about the assassination (G. Robert Blakey, and Richard N. Billings, The Plot to Kill the President, New York, 1981). The book is already extensively used, but any new material should be taken directly from Blakey's book, not from Posner's views on Blakey's theories. Posner and Bugliosi are just the main apologists for the original Warren Commission report and theories, and their work should be used with this central feature clearly in the mind of the editor. Thank you, warshy 20:22, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Mary Ferrell Foundation

The current state of the article uses this website quite a bit (e.g. are both cited several times). Do we have any reason to believe this is a reliable source as per WP:RS? Meaning: secondary, independent, with an editorial board, published editorial policy, and wide readership in mainstream circles? Because the more I examine this, the more it seems like a personal website pushing conspiracies. — Shibbolethink 03:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Local Fox affiliates

@BrandonTRA: The reference to fox10news is actually an article by local affiliate WASA. per the footnote on the WP:RSP entry: "Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG." But, regardless, the applicable WP:RSP entry would actually be Fox News (news excluding politics and science) as this is a topic of history. And that entry reads: "There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science". I'm no fan of Fox News, but I am a fan of correctly applied Misplaced Pages policy. — Shibbolethink 19:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

"There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science". Indeed, Fox News in not reliable on politics and science, but it's very reliable on entertainment ... lol BrandonTRA (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA (talk) 05:12, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

WASA Fox10news is a local fox affiliate, as described above. It is an independent news organization affiliated with but operated independently from the national media channel Fox News. Fox affiliate citations are handled differently from typical fox news citations. Please read the WP:RSP entry more carefully. — Shibbolethink 05:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

History Matters

One need not look much farther for evidence of this website's non-reliability than its front page: "In the wake of the end of the Cold War and the passage of the 1992 JFK Assassination Records Collection Act, the U.S. Government has declassified an enormous number of formerly-secret documents. Among the most stunning are those pertaining to the 1963 assassination of President Kennedy and its subsequent investigations. The new records contain stark indications of conspiracy, and a great wealth of material concerning the hows and whys of the ensuing coverup."

This website is not a news organization or a scholarly journal. It does not have an editorial board. It does not have any editorial policy. It is comprised of various essays and thoughts of conspiracy theorists.

The pertinent wikipedia policy is WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink 22:08, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Now you say that the pertinent Wiki policy is WP:FRINGE In other words, you've changed your argument mid-stream from your previous "unreliable" justification to your new "fringe" justification. Of course, your new justification is without merit as well, since you have provided no support that History Matters meets Wiki's criteria for being fringe. You're just wasting everyone's time with this. Tomorrow, when I have the chance, I will simply supply another source for the verbatim Garrison trial testimony that was sourced to History Matters. Hope you like wasting our time... BrandonTRA (talk) 23:53, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Just because someone or some site alleges a conspiracy in the case of the JFK assassination does make them FRINGE, nor does it meet Wiki's criteria of FRINGE. Many of those who have held power in the U.S. have alleged a JFK conspiracy, including the government body, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which alleged a Mafia conspiracy, as well as President Lyndon Johnson who alleged a JFK conspiracy involving Khrushchev and/or Castro. It is perfectly OK and within Wiki guidelines to cite sources alleging conspiracy. BrandonTRA (talk) 00:16, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Please, assume good faith in these exchanges. Do not assume I'm changing my argument, I am rather making more than one argument. Do not assume I'm saying we should not discuss the existence of a conspiracy theory, I am saying no such thing. We, however, need to use reliable sources to do so.Yes, please replace the source when you get a chance. We can put such statements in the article, when worded in an WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE compliant fashion, I would never say otherwise. But we must do so using sources which meet WP:RS and not in-universe WP:FRINGE sources. The pertinent directly RS-related guideline would be WP:QUESTIONABLE and WP:RSOPINION. For all the reasons I listed above. But both WP:FRINGE and WP:RSOPINION apply here. — Shibbolethink 03:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed that the AARC is actually a sub-organization of History-matters: "The JFK Assassination Archive disk and other AARC electronic document products are developed by History Matters. Visit our website: www.history-matters.com for more information and to order"This would mean the citation was not actually replaced, just pointed towards a different website run by the same group of people who are, as described above, likely not a reliable source. — Shibbolethink 05:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

If you go to the main page on the JFK assassination -- https://en.wikipedia.org/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy -- you'll see that history-matters.org is referenced several times. So your opinion that this is a fringe site is merely your own. BrandonTRA (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The wiki is not perfect, so the existence of something somewhere else does not mean the use of it here is within policy. Misplaced Pages does not work like a court of law, and there are no "precedents" by extant text. It probably shouldn't be referenced there either, but it doesn't matter in most cases. But it especially should not be used to support any fringe view statement. Which is the actual issue here, not the source itself, but that it is being used to advance a fringe perspective without description of the mainstream consensus as is required by WP:FRINGE. — Shibbolethink 03:04, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Wiki is not perfect, but you are... BrandonTRA (talk) 05:59, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Fox News

Fox News is not a reliable source in regard to either politics or science (see: Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) -- non- WP:RS. In accordance, I have removed Fox News citations. BrandonTRA (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Why would you duplicate this section?Regardless, here's my reply from above:WASA Fox10news is a local fox affiliate, as described above. It is an independent news organization affiliated with but operated independently from the national media channel Fox News. Fox affiliate citations are handled differently from typical fox news citations. Please read the WP:RSP entry more carefully. — Shibbolethink 23:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Local news channels affiliated with fake national news channels like Fox News (see: Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources) can not be assumed to be totally independent of their distributor, national media channel. They are inherently tainted and should not be used as reliable sources. -- WP:RSN -- BrandonTRA (talk) 01:56, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

That's not what WP:RSP says at all. It says: "Local Fox affiliates are considered distinct from Fox News, and are covered by WP:NEWSORG." — Shibbolethink 03:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Removal of UNDUE material

@BrandonTRA I removed the material in question because it is based solely on WP:PRIMARY sources, and therefore has no demonstration of being WP:DUE.

Per DUE, "avoiding undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects....Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements.... Giving undue weight to the view of a significant minority or including that of a tiny minority might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute."

We have no demonstration that this material is DUE, as we do not have it represented in secondary independent reliable sources as characterized in WP:RS. A secondary independent source means completely separated from the subject matter, so these transcripts of the commission proceedings etc. do not count. Those are WP:PRIMARY sources and are not part of determining whether material is WP:DUE. — Shibbolethink 18:48, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

You have deleted entire paragraphs with many citations -- containing both primary and secondary sources. You need to be specific as to what sources you feel are given undue weight, and why. BrandonTRA (talk) 16:57, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

No primary sources should be cited about fringe beliefs. AARClibrary.org and history-matters.org are fringe sites which are hosting primary documents from the warren commission. These primary documents do not show us that these materials are WP:DUE. We need independent reliable secondary (preferably scholarly) sources for that. We cannot simply cite primary sources and put that information on this article. We are interpreting these details as relevant and important to the narrative, important enough to be included here. To do so indiscriminately is a violation of WP:DUE. The logical conclusion would be that we should describe every single moment of the Warren commission in detail. And that, of course, would be ridiculous and unencyclopedic. Hence why DUE exists as a guideline. — Shibbolethink 19:19, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

If you go to the main page on the JFK assassination -- https://en.wikipedia.org/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy -- you'll see that both AARClibrary.org and history-matters.org are referenced several times. So your opinion that these are fringe sites are merely your own. BrandonTRA (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on the sites, but their use in this disputed content was as hosts of primary documents. Hosting the documents doesn't make the sites secondary sources. Shibbolethink is right to question whether this content is due. If reliable, secondary sources are making the kinds of analysis the disputed content does and highlight the same parts of the primary documents , we should cite them. Firefangledfeathers 18:30, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

You're changing your story. Here is what you said before regarding History Matters: "One need not look much farther for evidence of this website's non-reliability than its front page." (see above) BrandonTRA (talk) 18:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Are you confusing me with Shibbolethink? I'm flattered. Firefangledfeathers 20:56, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

You would be. BrandonTRA (talk) 21:11, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• C-Class American politics articles
• Mid-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• C-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• C-Class Alternative views articles
• Mid-importance Alternative views articles
• WikiProject Alternative views articles
• C-Class Death articles
• Mid-importance Death articles
• C-Class history articles
• Mid-importance history articles
• WikiProject History articles
• C-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• C-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• C-Class United States Presidents articles
• Mid-importance United States Presidents articles
• WikiProject United States Presidents articles
• C-Class Texas articles
• Low-importance Texas articles
• WikiProject Texas articles
• C-Class United States Government articles
• High-importance United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States articles