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Warsaw concentration camp

Initiated by Jehochman at 13:35, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Jehochman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
• Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• diff of notification Piotrus
• diff of notification Volunteer Marek

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• COIN discussion ending without result 4 December 2021
• Original RFC at Talk:Warsaw concentration camp
• RFC at Talk:Reliability of Misplaced Pages
• An older discussion at WT:List of hoaxes on Misplaced Pages

Statement by Jehochman

Issue: If a newspaper publishes an article critical of an editor's editing, can the editor remove that newspaper article, and content sourced to it, from Misplaced Pages?

On Oct. 4, 2019, Omer Benjakob of Haaretz, Israel's paper of record, published a story about Misplaced Pages's coverage of Poland and the Holocaust, including what Benjakob called Misplaced Pages's longest-running hoax, related to content at the article "Warsaw concentration camp": . In this article, Benjakob interviewed User:Icewhiz and User:Piotrus, among others, and wrote, in the newspaper's voice, content that was critical of Icewhiz, Piotrus, User:Volunteer Marek, and others, as well as Misplaced Pages as a whole. As Benjakob predicted, back in 2019, and again in 2021, Piotrus and Volunteer Marek have removed content about the hoax, and the Haaretz article, from multiple Misplaced Pages pages. (all above statements copied from WP:COIN)

This is yet another hydra head from EEML, a 2009 arbitration case. This matter has been unresolvable due to severe, persistent behavioral problems. The dispute is causing extreme damage to the encyclopedia, by enabling disinformation and ahistory.

A little flavor of the discussion:

Jesus fucking Christ, reading COIN today was a mistake, because this thread makes me want to shove a pickaxe through my skull.

I came across this mess at Misplaced Pages:Closure requests where the closure request has sat, unactioned, for 16 days. Due to the fact that I was one of the people specifically targeted for harassment by EEML, I will not touch it. No other administrator appears willing, or able, to take on this monster, despite there having been at least four long (and heated) discussions. Therefore, I have wrapped it with a bow, and placed it under your Christmas tree (or next to your Festivus pole, etc.). Welcome to the Arbitration Committee!

Thank you, arbitrators. The scope includes the linked threads and associated articles. Once the bad behavior stops, other editors can sort out the content questions. Jehochman 15:31, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Aquillion makes a very interesting point, This is, largely, about a footnote. A footnote.. Indeed, just a footnote, yet the linked discussions include more than 50,000 words, and the uninvolved editors' typical reaction is, "Run away!" If some brave editors want to wade into this quagmire, you're welcome to prove me wrong. Jehochman 01:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Alanscottwalker thank you for the suggestion, but I'd rather have three editors at large, not arbitrators, because we don't want to create the appearance that ArbCom rules over content disputes. I'm not optimistic we will find any takers. Jehochman 01:38, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Piotrus

I have no idea why the closure of three mostly stale discussions ended up at ArbCom. I'll just say that Jehochman seems pretty confused about a number of things (including reposting a somewhat biased summary of the discussion in question - no, the Haaretz piece is not critical of Icewhiz, it's very sympathetic to his "plight", and criticizes all of his opponents, including the ArbCom, which had the gall of banning the poor fella...). There is also zero relation to the now 12-years old EEML case; although apparently, Jehochman has bad memories of it (for the record, I don't recall interacting much with Jehochman, and it is the first I hear EEML has targetted them - although it was 12 years ago and EEML included various individuals with various agendas...). Anyway, it would be good for this poisoning the well/WP:ASPERSIONS with references to ancient wiki history to end. As for the closure requests in question, it would be good to see a closure by someone familiar with the issue at hand (i.e. the extent of harassment by Icewhiz out of which the Haaretz piece is his biggest success, in which he duped an otherwise reasonable journalist and newspaper into reprinting his ArbCom-rejected conspiracy theory). #Statement by Alanscottwalker is actually a nice solution and I'd endorse it. On a side note, I do think it is important for the community to clearly say that such calls to arms (cf. quotes from the paper in the collapsed section below) representing extreme WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, and also WP:BLP/WP:NPA/WP:AGF violations (although outside the project space) are not welcome on the project, in any shape or form. In other words, WP:HARASSMENT needs to be observed, and it should also prohibit the usage of harassment outside Misplaced Pages as a source for anything (also per WP:DFTT). I am not sure if this is for ArbCom to say so, but perhaps they need to do so if the community has trouble dealing with such fake news. Also, this can all be resolved without a need for the full case if a proper closure is carried out.

I really don't think Misplaced Pages should support "granting ammunition for his last offensive in the footnote war". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

There’s absolutely NO WAY I’m wasting ANY time on this stupidity. Volunteer Marek 22:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

ARGHGHGHGGHHGJHGHGN!!!!! Here is me already wasting my time on this. This is in response to Softlavender - it’s simply not true, it’s 100% false, that any “material that mentions them from a Misplaced Pages article” was removed by ANYBODY. There was no material mentioning anyone anywhere on Misplaced Pages to be removed!!!! Between this completely false claim, Softlander falsely accusing users of “perpetuating hoaxes”, Jhochmann somehow claiming he was a “specifically target of EEML” (reality: no one on there gave a fig about him and he was only mentioned in passing) and Levivich running around screaming EEML! EEML! EEML! and dragging out a twelve year old case this is already turning out to be a train wreck.

Goddamit, somebody just do the sensible thing and close any remaining discussions or RfCs (pretty sure some of them have already been closed and this here is just WP:FORUMSHOPPING), stop wasting people’s time, and go on and have the happy holidays. Volunteer Marek 22:49, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Alanscottwalker

Ask three of the retiring arbitrators (if they are uninvolved) to close each of those discussions listed in the case request. And go from there, if those closes do not or find they can not resolve it. (As for behavior, from the present case request, it does not look like behavioral issues, assuming there are behavioral issues, have been dispute resolutioned at lower levels by admin intervention, or at places like ANI/AN, which should normally be tried before this committee accepts.) -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Arbitration would not close the discussions or decide content, individual administrators/users would close based on the discussions, and then any arbitrating, if more were needed, could be done by the remaining arbitrators (and to sweeten the deal, we'd give the closers a year end bonus, twice their present salary). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Paul Siebert

I would like to comment on EEML. I think I have a right to do that because, as I learned several years after the EEML story had ended, I myself was a potential target of their activity: they were contemplating some joint actions against me, but they concluded their standard strategy would not be effective against me. Nevertheless, I think the reference to EEML is hardly relevant to this case: EEML was a loose group of users from different post-Soviet states, and they were acting in coordination only when they had a common opponent (pro-Russian or pro-Communist users). Some of those users are still acting, sporadically, as a tag-team in Communism related topics, but that is very rare, and, importantly, Piotrus never participates in that. In this concrete case, we are dealing with just few users who are interested in the same topic (Polish history). That is pretty legitimate, and I see no reason to speak about any resurrection of "EEML hydra" in this particular case.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: A distinctive feature of EEML was an extensive off-Wiki coordination of ostensibly independent users. By calling someone "EEML-2", you imply involvement of some users in some significant off-Wiki coordination or similar malicious activity. We don't have such evidences, and I doubt we will ever have them. Without evidences, your claim may be considered a personal attack.

Even EEML itself was discovered by accident. We have no reason to rule out a possibility of other mail list groups, which may be currently active, but, since we will hardly get an information about them, we must assume no such coordination exists.

In reality, the main reason that made EEML so dangerous is one fundamental flaw in Misplaced Pages's approach towards dispute resolution. We implicitly assume that two arguments presented by different users have more weight than the very same arguments presented by a single user. And the same is true collective vs individual actions.

A recent example is this. This AE case lead to a block of one user who made more than one revert during less then 24 hours, and then stopped to edit. Interestingly, although I explicitly pointed out that those two reverts were just a minor part of the edit war, where three ex-EEML members were involved as a "tag-team", this my comment was totally ignored. In my opinion, this attitude of admins provoke users to establish tacit off-Wiki communication to evade totally formal admin's radars.

However, that does not mean that different users who are interested in the same topic cannot edit it concurrently, and it is absolutely unimportant if they were the members of some mailing list 12 years ago. Paul Siebert (talk) 18:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Outsider's comment GoodDay

Clarifiy: Was this newspaper story written by a banned editor or was the newspaper story's source a banned editor? GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Now that I got my clarification. Indeed the said-piece should be deleted from Misplaced Pages. Icewhiz (via his continuing socks) has IMHO, zero credibility here. I'll leave it to the rest of you, to decide the next steps. GoodDay (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Biruitorul

As a card-carrying EEML member, can I just say that irrelevantly exhuming our doughty cabal twelve years later is downright absurd at this point? If one wants to criticize Piotrus’ actions — although I see nothing blameworthy, only a sincere attempt to defend the project from the slanders of a disgruntled banned editor — by all means do so, but bringing up something that happened a few months into the Obama administration isn’t the winning argument one may imagine it to be. — Biruitorul 17:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Levivich

Volunteer Marek and Piotrus were parties to WP:EEML; the reason it's relevant today is that they're still doing the same thing they were doing twelve years ago, and that's what the Haaretz article is about, specifically discussing EEML, Piotrus, and Marek. In the COIN thread are diffs of coordinated editing (reinstating each other's reverted edits, for example) and the COIN thread itself (and the other three) also show coordinated bludgeoning. EEML editors have been working together to erase this Haaretz article from everywhere it appeared in Misplaced Pages (even tho the content has been stable for two years). Marek had been tbanned and this new activity in 2021 comes right on the heels of him being un-tbanned (by arbcom). Piotrus was also tbanned for 3 months last year for canvassing. This stuff has been going on for like seventeen years in total (years before the EEML case), and it's still happening today. If this is accepted as a case, it might even be called EEML 2 (with a similar scope, and perhaps some additional parties should be added, including some who were parties to EEML). Personally I think it's obvious enough to not even need a full case, but then I remain in perpetual disbelief that anyone from EEML was ever allowed to edit again, at all. Levivich 17:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

This is, largely, about a footnote. A footnote. The other places are an internal Misplaced Pages page and two sentences at Reliability of Misplaced Pages, all of which has (somehow) now reached ArbCom. ArbCom should reject this, inclusion or exclusion at each of those places should be resolved by an RFC, and if anyone really really wants to add this source at multiple additional places it could possibly also be discussed in a broader RFC at RSN or NPOVN, depending on whether you want to argue about whether the source is basically reliable or whether its use is due / undue. We have systems for resolving such trivial and insignificant content disputes before they reach ArbCom; use them. As far as the COIN issue any administrator is free to close it with action, and if no one is willing to do so, that is likely an indicator that there's insufficient consensus to act on it.

Also, if ArbCom does decide despite that that they must accept this, it would be inappropriate to only examine Volunteer Marek and Piotrus' behavior (Jehochman is, AFAIK, largely uninvolved) given how unfortunately long and involved the dispute has become. At the very least, anyone who has spent serious amounts of time adding / restoring the disputed text or opening / pursuing sanctions should also have their behavior examined; if ArbCom decides it involvement is needed to resolve the underlying dispute, it must examine all sides in it. --Aquillion (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Nihil novi

For apposite reasons cited by Alanscottwalker, GoodDay, Biruitorul, and Aquillion, I believe that arbitration is not the proper means for adjudicating Jehochman's meritless allegations. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

May an editor remove, from an article, a statement that he believes to be incorrectly complimentary to him? Conversely, may he not remove a statement that is libelous to him as a living person? Nihil novi (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender

I am not a party to any of the articles or talkpages or subjects involved in this dispute. I did !vote and opine in the COIN thread about the user-behavior issue at hand.

It seems a no-brainer than editors cannot remove material that mentions them from a Misplaced Pages article. If it takes ArbCom to settle that, then so be it. Perhaps an entire case is not necessary; a simple tally ruling could suffice. Softlavender (talk) 22:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

After reading all 4 threads provided by Jehochman, this conflict appears to be indeed about the article "Warsaw concentration camp", but more importantly, about the banned User:Icewhiz. This is the case when the banned contributor has created sock puppets and disrupts Misplaced Pages by publishing in Haaretz (and on off-wiki forums) about contributors with whom he had a grudge.

Therefore, I think the best course of action would be to ignore this request, and to close two currently active RfCs (linked to by Jehochman). I do not see any serious problems with behavior of other contributors. If there are WP:COI problems in the DS area (as was alleged on WP:COINB), that can be reported to WP:AE, not here. My very best wishes (talk) 02:42, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by Szmenderowiecki

I understand the confusion the OP has about the concurrent threads ultimately leading to the Haaretz article in question. (Btw, the EEML invocation here is really irrelevant. Even though there is some rather concerning behaviour, I think it falls short of ArbCom intervention - I've seen worse; probably it should be dealt with at AN/ANI level).

Aquillion is right that the question is only about a footnote, so we might be making a mountain out of a molehill, and indeed I believe that in a way, that is the case because the information is not cited to Icewhiz's opinion but is simply a factual statement that no one seems to dispute (on the other hand, I resent any more discussions on RSN/NPOVN/other areas, because we already have had one and three are open, one on RSN AFAIK was closed per WP:TALKCENT). However, there are important questions that have been triggered while discussing this Haaretz source, which ArbCom might be willing to consider:

• Whether articles published in generally reliable sources (according to WP:RSP) may be tainted (considered unreliable) if one of the sources for the article is a banned editor, and if so, whether that applies to the whole article or the parts where the banned editor is speaking (which solves the question of whether we may source some information to the article which happens to contain the banned editor's opinions but are not cited in-text)
• Whether a user has a conflict of interest if they are mentioned (by username) in a 3rd-party article published in a generally reliable source.
• Adopt a uniform definition of the word "hoax" for the purposes of articlespace (and Misplaced Pages space, where the first debate about the word "hoax" took place, too), i.e. whether a user's intent to deceive is needed or it is enough to show that by all likelihood the information was initially published as a hoax.

I believe ArbCom may take the second question (as it is not the content one) as the discussions are dispersed among different threads (even if they concern the same topic), and for the above questions, the community could not find an acceptable solution to the problem. The three-admin solution should work for the rest, but then it should be a single resolution concerning all the RfCs and discussions, and this resolution should answer the questions mentioned above (all of them if ArbCom declines to take the case and the first and the third ones if ArbCom decides to resolve the conflict of interest question). I would rather that ArbCom considered the case, particularly in light of prior interactions with the now-banned user (which ended up on ArbCom as well) and the possible sockpuppet influence.

Answering My very best wishes, I don't believe AE is the proper venue because the COI rules proved not as clear-cut as it could seem, and if we can't agree on the interpretation of the rules, we don't know what to enforce in the first place; besides, I don't see having COI it as a violation of something (as an AE report would suggest). Finally, both venues still refer to just the very same people in ArbCom.

@Levivich: your statement seems to imply some off-wiki coordination between users wishing to remove the Haaretz article. While the amount of energy some of them have spent on removing it is absolutely mind-boggling (particularly when speaking of a footnote), you should best present some evidence of this behaviour before anyone blocks or sanctions anyone. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Warsaw concentration camp: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Warsaw concentration camp: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/0/0>-Warsaw_concentration_camp-2021-12-21T15:10:00.000Z">

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

• There's zero doubt that the conversations around this have been very difficult and it's unsurprising that someone would look our way. Questions on my mind: For those who will suggest we accept this case, what do you see as our scope because we're not going to rule on content? For those who would suggest we decline, how do you see this conflict resolving short of a case? Barkeep49 (talk) 15:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)"> ">

  While I continue to read the perspectives of community members with interest, and have done a re-read of the diffs provided, I am inclined to suggest that the option provided by Alanscottwalker is a good one if there is someone willing to do it. The question of when an editor can remove a (reliable) source critical of them in their role as an editor (as opposed to the more typical situation of a BLP removing a (reliable) source critical about them for whatever makes them notable) feels worthy of an answer. I see some bludgeoning and other behavior in that COIN thread such that the average uninvolved editor may be reluctant to close. This does not mean, from my read, that there is no consensus to be found, or even if there is no consensus no value from a formal close. The open RfC seems to indicate our dispute resolution methods are working in other ways and I am not seeing evidence (so far) that a broader examination of editor behavior is necessary, rather than using AE as needed. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:02, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Placeholder—will review and comment tomorrow. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)