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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Crimean war was copied or moved into Crimean War with this edit on 02:54, 31 July 2002. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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Original research: Kurdish rebels on the Russian side

"Kurdish rebels" is listed as a Russian ally in the infobox, but this appears to be WP:OR. The Eskander (2014) source, a PhD thesis, literally contradicts the claim ("Yazdan Shir, the leader of this revolt, attempted to co-ordinate his military efforts with the Russian armies. But he failed to establish a direct communication line with Russian forces. "). The other listed source (JSAS, 1999), even more problematically, doesn't even mention the matter (i.e. the supposed coalition). - LouisAragon (talk) 13:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

My bad. Prolly should add an extra column. Koopinator (talk) 12:57, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Strenght of the Sardinian corps

The infotable on the right says that the Sardinian troops amounted to 21,000 men, quoting "Clodfelter 2017, p. 180" as a reference.

Section "Piedmontese involvement" talks of "an expeditionary corps of 15,000 soldiers", quoting "Arnold, Guy (2002). Historical Dictionary of the Crimean War. Scarecrow Press. ISBN 9780810866133. pp. 111-12" as a source

Sardinian Expeditionary Corps in the Crimean War article says that "Sardinia committed a total of 18,000 troops", quoting Arnold again; it also speaks of 2,574 men on the Naval Division.

Is it possible to clarify better these numbers in the article(s)? --MassimoDellaPena (talk) 17:43, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Cuts to popular culture section

Recent cuts to this section go too far. Impossible to believe that the cultural impact of this major conflict begin and end with Tokstoy and Tennyson. By contrast, the shorter and less significant Falklands war gets this : Cultural impact of the Falklands War Crawiki (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Quotes cleanup

The following sentences are currently whast appear to be direct quotes from references that appear as unattributed quotes in the prose.

• "The reasons for the Tsar's disquietude are not obscure. Not Turkey alone was threatened by the advance of Ibrahim. The rights secured to Russia by a succession of treaties were also directly jeopardized. The substitution of a virile Albanian dynasty at Constantinople in place of the effete Osmanlis was the last thing desired by the Power which wished, naturallyenough, to command the gate into the Mediterranean"
• "British exports to the Ottoman Empire, including Egypt and the Danubian principalities, increased nearly threefold from 1840 to 1851 (...) Thus it was very important, from the financial point of view, for Britain to prevent the Ottoman Empire from falling into other hands"
• "The Tsar Nicholas had always, as we have seen, been England anxious to maintain a cordial understanding with England in regard to the Eastern Question, and early in the spring of 1853 he had a series of interviews with Sir Hamilton Seymour, then British ambassador at St. Petersburg"
• "By signing the convention, the Russians had given up their privileged position in the Ottoman Empire and their control of the Straits, all in the hope of improving relations with Britain and isolating France"
• "The fall of the Ottoman Empire was not, however, a requirement of British policy in the East. A weak Ottoman state best suited British interests"
• "With the help of French infantry, it was possible to overturn Russia's positions with one blow"
• "All luck depended on whether Muravyov (the Russian commander) would be scared or not"

Due to not much familiarity with the war, I'd prefer to leave any changes to people more familiar with the subject, to avoid any accidental errors being introduced when rephrasing. FDW777 (talk) 18:51, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I sincerely wish you to change the direction of your activity and write only in those topics in which you are sufficiently oriented. I assure you that my above quotes are from very authoritative sources, historians, who show a high degree of objectivity in their assessments. I gave quotes only for the reasons that they carry important information and are stylistically successful.93.81.218.236 (talk) 21:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

93.81.218.236 wrote: I sincerely wish you to change the direction of your activity and write only in those topics in which you are sufficiently oriented. That's not how Misplaced Pages works. You may have an expertise in history, but that does not necessarily mean you have an expertise in summarizing material (which is the question at hand) or in how to use H:WIKITEXT or what style English Misplaced Pages follows or in structuring citations.

I assure you that you must make a cogent argument about the merits of including a verbatim quote instead of summarizing it. To merely list a bunch a quotes does not do the material justice. A reader can go to the citation source to find that. Consider that as an encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source source whose function is summarize a topic & verify the statements by citing reliable sources. Repeatedly throwing in chunks of quotations undermines this purpose.

Please note that the "I know more than you do" argument will get you zero traction here. Peaceray (talk) 22:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

MOS:QUOTE has some relevant recommendations on the use of quotes, as well. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Of course, I agree with you that this is not an argument to say, "I'm clever and you're not." I don't agree with you that I can be accused of just adding quotes anywhere. I noticed a significant flaw in the article and tried to correct it. What is the disadvantages? The disadvantage is that there was no coverage of the goals of the European powers (especially Great Britain) in the Crimean War, as well as coverage of Russia's mistakes in foreign policy that led to the outbreak of the Crimean War. I also tried to highlight the goals of the Ottoman Empire. I have added relevant texts and quoted from authoritative sources. I also added a text that highlights the circumstances and the exact date of the beginning of the Crimean War. It's just even strange that the article devoted to the Crimean War did not have an exact date of its beginning. Agree that this is a significant and obvious drawback. If you say that there are shortcomings in the design of quotations, then, of course, this needs to be corrected. I don't see any problems here. 93.81.216.236 (talk) 07:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

It lists 16 October 1853 – 30 March 1856? in the infobox. Are those not the exact dates?

It is not question of shortcomings in the design of quotations. What is wrong with the ability of summarizing and paraphrasing to convey the information? Too much exact quotes can lead to copyright violation problems. Peaceray (talk) 07:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Infobox from hell

The infobox claims an allied victory and cites "The History Guy". This is likely a questionable source. The body of the text really isn't helping on "who won" and sources that tell us as much. From reading the article, this appears to have become something of a stalemate ended by treaty, best described as "inconclusive". The rest of the infobox is badly bloated. Cinderella157 (talk) 07:14, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

The revision of the Paris Treaty of 1856 took place just 14 years later, in 1870. And then more and more. The peaceful settlement was completely ridiculous and, therefore, short-lived. But what do you want? This often happens in history. It's not that the article was poorly written. It was done then, in the 19th century, badly.93.81.219.212 (talk) 12:18, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

My biggest issue is just how bloated it is. We don't need to list 700 different officers, and while I haven't read them I really doubt we need all those footnotes as well. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:23, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Really 700? 93.81.219.212 (talk) 12:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It is a hyperbole, I apologize for not including the "/s" if the exaggeration was unclear. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

For clarification on what I mean by it is too bloated, it is currently longer than the lead AND table of contents combined in a laptop screen. You'd get RSI just from trying to read this on mobile /s. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I have made a proposed change to the infobox then reverted it, so that we can compare here. I am not knowledgeable enough about the war itself to know which commanders should be listed in the infobox, but I strongly believe having more than 3 or 4 per nation is excessive. Please respond with which version you think is better: the current version or my proposed change.Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 12:53, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I think 3-4 personalities for each participating country is still not enough. The war was going on on many fronts, each front had its own commander. In addition, the war was very fierce. I can say on behalf of the Russian side that many top commanders were killed in the battles. I could, on the contrary, add more, but they are simply less well-known abroad. So I think of course there should be more than 3-4.93.81.219.140 (talk) 13:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. See WWII, WWI, and War of the Fifth Coalition for examples of infoboxes for complex wars involving many countries where the officers are summarized. Also whether the fact many officers in battle does not mean there were many officers that must be mentioned in the infobox. The lead and the infobox should be a concise, effective summary of the article. Listing 15 different Russian officers is immensely excessive. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:08, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I am not particularly experienced in Military History, but I will observe that this particular infobox seems to get a lot of churn. In particular it seems that I remember seeing personnel numbers (Strength, Casualties and losses) changing constantly for a while, often without changes in citation. I also agree that there is a lot of unnecessary bloat when it comes to Commanders and leaders. Perhaps the latter can be handled in relevant sub-articles.

I would like it if we can review and consent on the citations that we use in the infobox. In particular, we should explain why any sources are unreliable. That would help experienced editors inexperienced in Military History, like myself, easily revert the addition of an unreliable or inferior source with a comment like Inferior source as per consent discussion on talk page at ... Peaceray (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I think this is a pretty minor issue. Of course, reading existing text on smartphones can cause some inconvenience. But on the other hand, the shortening of the text has a negative side, there is a danger of missing something important. This, too, should not be forgotten. 93.81.218.236 (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

The infobox is an adjunct to the lead. The purpose is to summarise the article, which is itself a summary. Furthermore, it should be supported by what is written within the body of the main text. This is an article about the overall war. It is supported by articles which provide greater detail about particular battles. They are the place for such greater detail. Template:Infobox military conflict would advise us: For wars, only prominent or notable leaders should be listed, with an upper limit of about seven per combatant column recommended. Furthermore, their inclusion should be evident from and supported by the body of the article. This is not the case here. The section Crimean War#Prominent military commanders is unreferenced. The one citation that does appear would link to a photo and in no way goes to the "prominence" of the subject. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I think if you see flaws in the article, then you should try to correct them. The only thing I want to ask you is that you do not get carried away with reducing the volume of the text to the detriment of the content.93.81.216.236 (talk) 07:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

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