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Revision as of 13:11, 16 March 2022

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Treatments for COVID-19: Current consensus

A note on WP:MEDRS: Per this Misplaced Pages policy, we must rely on the highest quality secondary sources and the recommendations of professional organizations and government bodies when determining the scientific consensus about medical treatments.

1. Ivermectin: The highest quality sources (1 2 3 4) suggest Ivermectin is not an effective treatment for COVID-19. In all likelihood, ivermectin does not reduce all-cause mortality (moderate certainty) or improve quality of life (high certainty) when used to treat COVID-19 in the outpatient setting (4). Recommendations from relevant organizations can be summarized as: Evidence of efficacy for ivermectin is inconclusive. It should not be used outside of clinical trials. (May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, July 2021, July 2021) (WHO, FDA, IDSA, ASHP, CDC, NIH)
2. Chloroquine & hydroxychloroquine: The highest quality sources (1 2 3 4) demonstrate that neither is effective for treating COVID-19. These analyses accounted for use both alone and in combination with azithromycin. Some data suggest their usage may worsen outcomes. Recommendations from relevant organizations can be summarized: Neither hydroxychloroquine nor chloroquine should be used, either alone or in combination with azithromycin, in inpatient or outpatient settings. (July 2020, Aug 2020, Sep 2020, May 2021) (WHO, FDA, IDSA, ASHP, NIH)
3. Ivmmeta.com, c19ivermectin.com, c19hcq.com, hcqmeta.com, trialsitenews.com, etc: These sites are not reliable. The authors are pseudonymous. The findings have not been subject to peer review. We must rely on expert opinion, which describes these sites as unreliable. From published criticisms (1 2 3 4 5), it is clear that these analyses violate basic methodological norms which are known to cause spurious or false conclusions. These analyses include studies which have very small sample sizes, widely different dosages of treatment, open-label designs, different incompatible outcome measures, poor-quality control groups, and ad-hoc un-published trials which themselves did not undergo peer-review. (Dec 2020, Jan 2021, Feb 2021)

Misinformation should not be there

User made absolutely no argument other then this person said no so I believe then instead. Onlyfacts77 (talk) 09:03, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree this is absurd I represent a veteran research community with medical doctors and other related professionals. It is urgent continuously with overwhelming data that this is complete defamation an absolute misinformation on behalf of those who seek to eliminate the credible reputation of Dr PhD John Campbell. There’s absolutely no justification for any of the misleading comments such as this information false claims or any other related defamation currently posted on this very prestigious webpage. It is evidently false and rather insulting to anyone who knows the truth and anyone who doesn’t being misled. The editor of this sea of lies is the miss information corporate not Dr. John Campbell Usmc medical (talk) 13:42, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

We go with what RS say, you are not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 13:45, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Claim of misinformation needs citation

The claim made of Dr. John Campbell being guilty of wrongthink needs substantial corroborating evidence. 2603:6011:4F43:5900:4DAA:52C7:75F4:4F9F (talk) 23:07, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

That's the best referenced part of the article. FDW777 (talk) 09:24, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Technically they are correct, none of our sources say he is "guilty of wrongthink". But we have cites for his claims being misinformation.Slatersteven (talk) 10:04, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I entirely agree with due diligence, entirely agree Usmc medical (talk) 14:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

With what, there is more than one person here. Slatersteven (talk) 14:45, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Sources Please read American Journal of Theraupeutics 28, e434-460 (2021).

Please read American Journal of Theraupeutics 28, e434-460 (2021)

This needs to be considered when examining this page. Wysiwygil (talk) 22:34, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

See #Treatments for COVID-19: Current consensus regarding the snake oil. FDW777 (talk) 22:38, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

In particular see Talk:Ivermectin/Archive 3#Bryant, Lawrie, et al returns. FDW777 (talk) 22:40, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Or, even more pertinently, see here. Alexbrn (talk) 05:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Time for a FAQ? Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is being bought into disrepute

My edits on this page have been reverted :

Campbell has made repeatedly made false claims about the use of the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment and allegedly spread misleading commentary about vaccine safety, though Dr Campbell is triple vaccinated and recommends vaccination to all those at significant risk from Covid. It is claimed Campbell wrongly asserted that deaths from COVID-19 have been over-counted though this does depend on the definition of a Covid death..

Both additions are cited.

I am very saddened by this, it is the very worst of Misplaced Pages. Saying one cannot use the actual comment from the subject of the article, but only use a comment from some other site quoting the subject of the article is utterly ludicrous and basically certain editors are using esoteric Misplaced Pages rules to promote their own agenda. Dr Campbell is triple vaccinated (fact 1), and he recommends vaccinations to all those at significant risk of Covid (fact 2). The article, and certainly the introduction, is implying Campbell is somehow anti-vax and is therefore inaccurate. I will accept alteration of my edits provided that the form of words used still makes clear Campbell is in favour of vaccination. --JustinSmith (talk) 15:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

It does not matter if both edits were cited, they need to be cited to wp:rs, one of your sources does not even mention (so violated either wp:or or wp:synthesis, and maybe both). Edits must obey our policies (as must talk page comments). Slatersteven (talk) 15:41, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes. And in fact Campbell said he now didn't think the vaccine was safe in one of his recent videos. Basically, it's all about courting loonies for money and his repeatedly grift has been document by reliable sources which Misplaced Pages faithfully mirrors, per core policy. The OP must not insert daft personal musings into Misplaced Pages and should be aware repeated disruption like that will get them banned, as it's that kind of damage which actually "brings Misplaced Pages into disrepute". Alexbrn (talk) 15:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

No, using terms like "courting loonies" proves you are indeed pushing your own agenda by using obscure rules to delete provable facts that disagree with the narrative you want to push. Banning me, after 16 years editing Misplaced Pages, might be doing me a favour anyway, it takes up so much time. I will only accept an edit that acknowledges that Campbell cannot be "anti vax" because he is triple vaccinated. JustinSmith (talk) 15:48, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

You need a source saying he is not anti-vax, how you interpret a source is not good enough, and after 16 years of editing Misplaced Pages you should be aware of that. Nor do we (In fact) say he is Anti-vax, so it is hard to see which of our content you think this disputes. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

If you think Misplaced Pages policies are "obscure rules", I suggest reading all of them first. FDW777 (talk) 16:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• I don't think anything here is citable, but for the "facts" from the primary source, this twitter thread usefully captures the main vax/anti-vax aspects. Misplaced Pages does not say Campbell is antivax, mind you. That may change as sourcing grows. Alexbrn (talk) 16:14, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

  Why are you reading, or citing, a critical Twitter thread rather than actually hearing the man say he is triple vaccinated with his own mouth ? This sums up how biased this page has become. JustinSmith (talk) 16:24, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• What does him being triple jabbed have to do with anything? It doesn't in any way negate the misinformation about vaccines he's peddled to other people. FDW777 (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Because we go by what wp:rs say, not wp:primary, and what Twitter thread do we cite in the article? Slatersteven (talk) 16:27, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

• Per WP:TWITTER, self-published sources may be used to support claims about the subject itself. If someone with a Misplaced Pages article claims they got a shot and self-published the claim, the source can be used to support the statement "Subject claims to have received a shot". This is all supported by policy and a statement is undeniably relevant to this article. While I do not support Justin Smith's edit warring behavior, we are forgetting that one of the edits he's trying to make is valid, just executed in a biased way. The added blurb should be more like "Campbell claims to be triple-vaccinated against COVID-19", rather than a statement of absolute fact. I am inclined to add this to the article. MarshallKe (talk) 23:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

  To those who think his vaccination status is irrelevant, what is it irrelevant to? John Campbell, or the impression we might want a reader to leave with? MarshallKe (talk) 00:01, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

  Juxtaposing the statements like that is still a WP:SYN problem, it suggests a connection that isn't drawn from a source. MrOllie (talk) 00:17, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

  MarshallKe is right that we could include his claim about vaccination status if attributed per WP:ABOUTSELF. MrOllie is right that doing so might lead to implications that aren't present in any secondary RS. It's abundantly clear that JustinSmith's intention was to create such an implication. I am weakly against including an attributed self-claim somewhere away from the misinfo section, maybe in Personal life. I'm opposed to putting it in the lead or anywhere it might lead to an implied OR claim. Firefangledfeathers (talk | contribs) 01:50, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that the two statements together, as originally suggested, is not good, and I never suggested otherwise. I also am fine with putting his jab status in the personal life section. MarshallKe (talk) 12:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

  The problem (As I see it) was the justification for its addition is that it balances out our claim he is Anti-Vax, the problem is we do not claim he is. So if we do include this it can't be anywhere that might be seen as implying something about his covid misinformation not being misinforation. Slatersteven (talk) 12:16, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

  Yeah, it's cherry-picked trivia with implications. We might as well cherry pick that he's "not a happy man" about vaccine safety these days. Leave it out and stick to secondary, reliable sources is the best way. Alexbrn (talk) 12:23, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Allow me to ask a question inspired by wp:not, what does this tell us about him? how is it not just a WP:INDISCRIMINATE peice of trivia. I mean (yes I agree this is a whataboutism argument) do we do this for anyone else? Why do we need this? Slatersteven (talk) 12:40, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2022

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Dr John Campbell does not spread misinformation or make false claims. He simply informs. He always makes his source information available to viewers so that they can check the information for themselves. Whoever has written this Misplaced Pages entry is libelling this well respected Doctor. 2A00:23C4:9DD1:7401:C5B:F94A:D80C:2300 (talk) 09:43, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done This is an unactionable rant. Alexbrn (talk) 09:49, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

It's more rational and unbiased than much of what is on this page, and the article. Can I remind you, the official definition of a Covid death (re the 175,000 figure) was reverted by someone claiming it is "Ignorant and irrelevant". Unbelievable, but, unfortunately, true. JustinSmith (talk) 12:59, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Another factcheck

Here.

This is about the "other" recent ivermectin paper, and has some more detail. I'm not sure how much Ivermectin material we want - it all gets quite detailed. Alexbrn (talk) 13:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Covid deaths

As Campbell has claimed they have been inflated we can not imply this may be the case, unless RS explicitly say it is the case. So I think we need to take care how we word it to not give the impression Campbell's claim is supported by RS. Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, mis-using death certificate to imply wrong things about COVID deaths is precisely the misinformation at hand. The last thing Misplaced Pages should be doing is joining in. Add: Oh I see this misrepresentation has now been added back. Alexbrn (talk) 16:24, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Technically it's not actually misinformation, but its inclusion does not (to my mind (and per wp:brd should not have been added back once revered) adds anything. As (to my mind) it is unclear what its inclusion tells us about Campbell or his claims. Slatersteven (talk) 16:27, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

What's been added is misinformation. The source does not say things on death certificates are other "causes" of death. This is the nub of the whole death-with-not-from-COVID trope that has run throughout the pandemic. It's another in a pattern of attacks on medical content this editor has been making. Alexbrn (talk) 16:32, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

"Weekly deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate by date registered" says "Weekly number of deaths of people whose death certificate mentioned COVID-19 as one of the causes", so yes it does support the text. Whether the text is undue as it is not really about the topic is another matter. Slatersteven (talk) 17:06, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

I also note that those arguing for inclusion, are still to make a case here as to why this is relevant. Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

• I think because this is so open to misinterpretation about "causes" we would need a WP:MEDRS explainer. Alexbrn (talk) 17:23, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

• I don't see any problem with the content. If anything, the clarification only serves to make Campbell's 17,000 claim look even more wrong, since it's emphasising that the 170,000 (and counting) figure is death certificates with COVID as a cause of death. FDW777 (talk) 18:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
  • I think the text is a problem since it says "defined by numbers of deaths of people whose death certificate mentioned COVID-19 as one of the causes". The problem is this implies something else helped cause the death, so "it wasn't really COVID". The issue is that the concept of "cause" has a precise meaning on death certificates which is different from its general lay use. We would need to explain that although (say) respiratory failure might be the ultimate cause of death in the causal chain, the death was as a result of getting infected with COVID. Alexbrn (talk) 18:12, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

That is the issue for me, why add this as " The official figure for COVID-19-related deaths in the UK for the period was over 175,000" says the same thing, and does not need that caveat to say it. Slatersteven (talk) 18:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

This "...other than for editors who do not want anyone to know that a Covid death has to be closely defined if it to mean anything." is telling, this is exactly what we cannot imply, that RS may be wrong about this. Slatersteven (talk) 18:20, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

It's the "with-COVID" myth, and the locus of the complain about Campbell's video in RS. Alexbrn (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 March 2022

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John Campbell is not spreading misinformation about the Covid19 vaccination program he is trying to evaluate the risk benefit analysis of the emergency implementation of an experimental Vaccine that was in development for 20 years and only 2 years and 6 months into a three year human trail due to the high rate of fatality in the animals it was tested on in development.

Please refer to the Pfizor documents released under a court order at this Web location :-

https://phmpt.org/ Magic.Mike63 (talk) 12:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:27, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this : evaluate the risk benefit, if not all of what you say. There is almost no benefit to jabbing kids, and not much in vaccinating healthy people under 40, so any risk, however small, from the vaccine becomes relatively speaking, more significant. JustinSmith (talk) 13:11, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

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