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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem.

Additional notes:

• Edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases.
• For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies instead.
• Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

David A. Yeagley Template:Blpwatch-links

We could use some help at David A. Yeagley, where at least two anon IPs have repeatedly blanked the entire article and substitute a "hatchet job" bio containing negative unsourced statements. It's been going on for some time now and has escalated to the point of edit warring. I have left messages on the discussion pages of the anons, but in vain; they refuse to use "discussion" or edit in good faith without blanking the original text.

The offending editors are 64.238.136.39 and 216.177.172.11, with very similar edits having also been made by User:Brent Michael Davids, User:Verity Truth, and 162.83.249.112. An IP check is probably in order due to possible sock puppet activity to avoid 3RR or repercussions on the registered user names.

Thanks in advance for your help, Badagnani 02:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

129.115.102.13 has just joined in with the same behavior. Badagnani 22:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Anne Milton Template:Blpwatch-links

Anne Milton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). A constituent, Tim Ireland, has an attack blog on Milton. This has been repeatedly reinserted and edit-warred over. As it stands there is a short para on coverage of the Ireland dispute in the press (fine by me) but the blog itself keeps creepong back in (not fine, per WP:EL, links to avoid). I have removed the link. Guy (Help!) 23:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

• That's an WP:EL thing though, not a WP:BLP issue. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 15:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Harlan Ellison Template:Blpwatch-links

• Harlan Ellison #Self-incriminating account of sexual assault in 1962 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I tried removing the offending material because the source is from a work of fiction, and there is considerable doubt as to whether the event actually took place. Other editors have also tried removing the text for the same reason. Yonmei continues to insert the libelous account, which is undoubtedly a personal attack on the biographical subject. The confusion lies in that Harlan touts this story as being true, as often fiction writers are want to do.

The source for the libelous account is from the story SCENES FROM THE REAL WORLD: I, THE 3 MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE, which appeared in a collection of fiction from STALKING THE NIGHTMARE copyright © 1982 The Kilimanjaro Corporation. From the dusk jacket of that book: ".... For the first time the author has embodied his belief that fantasy and reality have switched places in our time by including four essays he calls SCENES FROM THE REAL WORLD...." From Stephen King foreword from the same book: ".... one can almost see 'The 3 Most Important Things in Life' as a stand-up comedy routine (it's a job, by the way, that Harlan knows, having done it for a while in his flaming youth)...."

If we cannot be sure the events took place from a likely work of fiction, then how can we include this fictional anecdote as fact? The entire entry should be removed. 70.81.7.65 00:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Rick Ross Template:Blpwatch-links

An anon contributor is removing whole sections of this article that are properly sourced on the basis that the material removed is too critical. Could some non-involved editors advise this user? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I presume you mean Rick Ross (consultant) since this is the one you appear involved in. Nil Einne 11:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Christopher Michael Langan Template:Blpwatch-links

The article is currently locked. However, there is a lot of material that is contentious, defamatory and potentially libellous on the talk page here. I tried to remove this edit from a newly created account twice, but it's been replaced by administrators who have shown occasional derision and bias toward the subject of the article and some of the editors who have edited out contentious content. I am a member of the bio Wikiproject, but am still not sure if I am communicating this important matter at the right location. Advice and help will be greatly appreciated! TIA --DrL 13:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how being called a "crank" is other than the opinion of the editor. It's clearly not suitable in article-space (unless sourced, possibly to Kevin Langan), but I don't see a violation in the removed text. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Arthur, you have recused yourself from dealings with this article in the past and it might be prudent to do so now. I don't know who "Kevin Langan" is but this seems to be a harassing comment on your part. It might be best to let a neutral admin make a call here. --DrL 14:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Before anyone wastes too much time investigating DrL's claims here, please be aware that the arbcom has ruled at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/ScienceApologist#Remedies that DrL and Asmodeus are both banned from editing on this topic due to aggressive and tendentious editing to inflate Langan's status. Any claims made here by these editors should be viewed in this light. FeloniousMonk 08:09, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard Littlejohn Template:Blpwatch-links

I edited this article to remove a large number of unsourced controversial statements, which are plainly unacceptable under WP:BLP. However a number of users have insisted on reverting these edits, with one user describing them as a "whitewash". 217.34.39.123 13:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Much of what is being disputed is sourced and acceptable under WP:BLP, much of it is unsourced but not particularly negative, and some of it looks like attempts to build up 'guilt by association'. Needs more thorough investigation. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 15:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• • This is the sort of article that will continue to hold WP up to libel until WP:BLP is strengthened. CyberAnth 07:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ilan Pappé Template:Blpwatch-links

Several new users, including User:RanceRol, User:RanceRot, and User:Greenran have been adding defamatory remarks to this article. They are clearly sockpuppets for banned User:Fumigate and his many other banned sockpuppets -- see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/IP_check#Fumigate and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Szamuels. When one article is protected, this vandal apparently seeks another place to add his defamatory comments about both the subject of the article, and Roland Rance. Is there any way to prevent this continued harrassment and vandalism? RolandR 01:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Blpwatch

This article has been created by Ken Avidor. Ken Avidor is a known opponent (with few scruples) of Dr. Anderson's lifelong goals. I scanned the article and found at least one case of taking a quote out of context. The article focuses on local Minneapolis politics, which is not necessarily appropriate to a discussion of Dr. Anderson's achievements. In order to prevent a minor recurrence of the Siegenthaler incident I suggest a rigorous review of this article. Bob 04:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC) (moved from WP:AN, Patstuart 05:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC))

I saw this while lurking AN/I, and took a look. Not only does the article suffer from a number of mis- or non-contextualized ironic statements, which standing alone present the appearance of a man who changes his opinion on his life's work with the wind, but it also features a large amount of redundant linking, which initially served to look like there was a LOT of opposition to his ideas. I took a whack at cutting the fat, and contetualizing some of it, but one quote absolutely had to go. I have NEVER heard of this guy before, but it's clean there's a LOT of POV-pushing going on at that article. ThuranX 05:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to block someone for willful POV pushing by creating an article about their enemy? I know there was the famous case where Misplaced Pages had to block the whole House and Senate because people kept on defacing their opponents' pages. Patstuart 06:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a long (one year) history with Ken Avidor, both here (see Talk:Personal rapid transit/Avidor) and off-wiki. He is virulently against PRT, and he has ridiculed PRT proponents on his web pages and blogs ( ). He commonly refers to Anderson as a "PRTista" and the "wacky professor". His anti-PRT campaign is so famous and widespread among the PRT community that there are two blogs devoted to debunking Avidor's claims ( - this one created by yours truly).

Having said all that, I've read the Anderson article and, compared to Avidor's typical work, it's actually not too bad. His opinions on this topic are so extreme that I honestly believe that this article is about as neutral as he is capable of producing on someone like Anderson. This is not to say the article is acceptable (ThuranX has already improved it significantly, and it still has a lot of issues), but rather, I don't think the POV pushing was necessarily "willful", or a sign of bad faith. I think it's entirely possible that this is his idea of neutral.

The question now is, will he fight changes to the article? He has already predicted (off-wiki) that "PRTistas (will) take a meat-axe to it...". So I think it would be best for those of us whom he views as proponents (User:Mr Grant, User:Dunning, and me) to avoid editing the article - maybe someone not associated with PRT can work on it instead? There's actually a lot of information there, and most of it seems pretty accurate, so it's really just a matter of toning it down.ATren 09:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Jonathan Sarfati Template:Blpwatch-links

I am following the procedure:

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

The following in the article has been repeatedly reinserted.

I have to report it here, since the rule is being violated by two admins, FeloniousMonk and JoshuaZ, who have a strong ideological bias against the subject of the article, and are breaking this clear rule and the one against original research, and are hiding behind arbcom diktats to punish editors with opposing ideologies. How can we expect justice when it's admins who are guilty and heavy handed, unless we go above their heads?

He also accuses many origin of life researchers, such as David Bartel of MIT and Gerald Joyce of the Scripps Research Institute, of having a religious kind of faith,

although those scientists do not demonstrate any manifestation of religious faith.

He also misrepresents the work of ribozyme evolution. For example, he argued that the mutagenesis of those experiments employed high error rates, which would cause error catastrophe, but high mutation rates were needed in those experiments simply to reduce the amount of time it would take to satisfactorially mutate a population of ribozymes to a significant extent, as opposed to using normal PCR techniques. This link is just an ibid, so refers to which is Sarfati's own article, which would not support this critical paragraph. So this paragraph is unsourced and counts as original research as defined:

"Original research is a term used in Misplaced Pages to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. ... It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position; It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;" Misplaced Pages:No original research. 58.162.2.122 15:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research?

I’m having a similar dispute on the biography of another living person, so I’d like to raise my questions here.

The first is that the transcripts from a criminal trial were published by a prominent local newspaper. Am I within Misplaced Pages’s rules in using those transcripts as sources, or is that considered original research?

My second question is illustrated by the following. One media report said the unidentified girl shown on the TV monitor in the courtroom was 11; a second report said she was 7. A third source said the monitor was positioned such that reporters couldn’t easily see it. There shouldn’t be any problem in including those three facts in the Misplaced Pages article as just stated (together with the sources). But I want to go one step further - just a small step - and point out that the third fact could EXPLAIN the discrepancy between the first two. (If the reporters couldn’t see the monitor clearly, then they couldn’t accurately estimate her age.) Now the third source doesn’t itself make this suggestion, so one COULD say that my suggestion is “original research”. But I would respond that it is merely PART of “collecting and organizing information” (see WP:NOR) - it’s a logical consequence of organizing the information - and is therefore permitted.196.15.168.40 04:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The main purpose behind the "no original research" policy is that you are not presenting your own theories or interpretations. In the first case, linking to the transcripts or citing them as a source is perfectly legitimate. In the second question, my opinion is that your new synthesis of the facts - the new conclusion that you draw - would constitute original research and would be inappropriate. BigDT 04:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

BigDT I think you forgot to mention that primary sources, such as court transcripts - must also have a secondary source in order to interpret them. Otherwise, it's very easy to misuse them. But please permit me to explain to you user 196.15.168.40. The article he is referring to is the David Westerfield article. He is a convicted child-killer. 196 has been trolling that article since March of 2006. 196 believes Westerfield was wrongfully convicted. At first, he stated he was here to correct the article and make it neutral. Well, all of that was done and yet he is still around. Thanks to him the article became the nicest article about a child-killer in all of wikipedia. 196 claims to "know a lot" yet he has never contributed to any article except the Westerfield one. When I bring that up to him, he claims that he doesn't have the time to contribute to other articles. However when he first came to wikipedia, to edit the Westerfield article, he was adding something new to it EVERY single day. So much so that an administrator was brought in to protect the article. Strange how he doesn't have the time now. Back then he had the time to contribute his bias and original research to the article. When he found out other users would thwart his efforts he toned down. 196 has made ALL efforts to make the article reflect Westerfield is innocent. Personally, I believe 196 is Westerfield's lawyers or knows somebody who knows the lawyers or are a relative of David Westerfield. A casual observer would not go through the lengths that he has made. For example, he is able to recite dates of testimony and who made them. Clearly the case is very close to his heart. So BigDT be careful what you tell this individual for he will surely find a way to abuse it. He has expressed contempt for the victims parents and blames them. If that's not enough he said deragotory things about the victim and her brothers. The victim is a 7 year old girl. To understand his bias go to the articles external link and go to link 8. Read the section he titled as "Guilty?"; he wrote the entire section. An administrator tagged the section as biased, but 196 conveniently saves the section without the tag. He cares nothing about wikipedia and has only remained here because wikipedia is available to anyone. Fighting for Justice 05:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply to “Fighting for Justice”:

I posed two simple technical questions, and in reply you subject me to a long personal attack, only two sentences of which address those questions, and even that is wrong (just like the rest of your response). This shows the difference between you and other editors, like BigDT. Where does Misplaced Pages say that “primary sources ... must also have a secondary source in order to interpret them”? You removed important information from the Westerfield article even when I used secondary sources in addition to or instead of primary sources, so you are clearly just using this as an excuse.

You complain that, in the beginning, I added something new to the article “EVERY single day”. Those are the exact same words used by your predecessor, TripleH1976 - and it was he who asked an administrator to protect the article (something else you’ve got in common with him).

You speak as though it is BAD that I am “able to recite dates of testimony and who made them”. I’m not alone. This case generated considerable interest, resulting in vigorous debates including on internet discussion forums, which continued even long after the trial was over. Probably because the transcripts were published, MANY people were “able to recite dates of testimony and who made them”, even though they were not related to Westerfield or his lawyer. You - and Misplaced Pages - should be grateful that you have someone here who is actually KNOWLEDGEABLE about the case.

You believe the article is neutral. Let’s look at one current example. Westerfield was convicted of possessing child pornography. In fact, there is a WEALTH of evidence - most of it from law enforcement themselves - that he did NOT have any child porn. I added that evidence to the article, but you REMOVED it all (as did TripleH1976 before you). Yet you accuse ME of being biased! (So did he.) Quite apart from the Westerfield case, don’t you think the public would like to know what could happen to THEM, too? A zealous prosecutor could again override his own experts in his determination to obtain THEIR conviction.

I have been thoroughly disenchanted by this, my first experience of Misplaced Pages. I can see why it has a bad reputation. Just ONE determined vandal can effectively sabotage attempts to improve an article, and there’s NO guarantee that the administrators will intervene.196.15.168.40 05:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Nelson Rockefeller

Despite repeated warnings user Tvoz has repeatedly violated the WP:Living rule regarding the Nelson Rockefeller entry. At the time of Rockefeller's death in 1979 there was much speculation, but no facts, regarding what happened. Tvoz had made multiple attempts to add salacious rumors to the effect there was a young women (he names her) involved, she had an adulterous relationship (this story follows details on his marriage), she helped cause his death from heart attack during sex, she had a motive for seeing him dead (named in his will), and she tried to cover up the episode and mislead police. There was no official report or criminal charge or lawsuit and no witnesses--it's all gossip--and it clearly violates our policy about negative statements and insinuations about living people (the women is in her mid 50s now). Rjensen 06:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The above was posted to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I originally recommended the user post it here, but I copied it myself after finding out the user has been blocked for 24 hours. Please note I am not endorsing the summary, there has been some discussion on the talk page which provides a different view Nil Einne 20:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

In my attempts at mediation, I have addressed these concerns on the article's talk page. However, I believe that Rjensen is not representing the case accurately. A quick flip through the history of this article confirms this: the user in question, Tvoz, has inserted citations from reliable sources to document the controversy that arose after Rockefeller's death. She has not made the claim that Rockefeller and Ms. Marshak were sexually involved, nor has she said that she had "motive". (The fact that Marshak was named as a beneficiary in Rockefeller's will shows only that they had some kind of relationship: it could very easily have been a platonic one.) Her edits have been to improve the neutrality of the information and to provide sources for the claims, and thus I do not believe that it is in any way a violation of WP:BLP. I will continue to monitor the situation. -- Merope 14:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Rjensen's comments above amount to a malicious personal attack on Tvoz, as she did none of the things described. Take a look at what Tvoz did add to the article: (her subsequent edits have added even more references and refined the text). Nelson Rockefeller died under unusual circumstances, something that gained wide press coverage at the time (for example, it was the subject of a Saturday Night Live skit ). Note that although it was widely assumed that Rockefeller died during sex with Marshack (such as in this CBC editorial ), the Misplaced Pages article has never said so, and has followed an editorial line similar to that of Time magazine, among others (), scrupulously adhering to WP:LIVING in regard to Marshack. Rjensen's sterile revert warring and willingness to throw wild accusations about show little understanding of consensus or Misplaced Pages's core policies, such as WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. ProhibitOnions 21:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"She likes to claim she was born in Germany but is a liar"
"She also is a girl with low self esteem who was teased all of her life. Her IQ was proven to be very low."

"I currently did research on her and will be willing to expose how much of a phony person she is."
"She thinks nobody in her family knows who she is, but they will find out soon."

Ron Jeremy Template:Blpwatch-links

This article contained many potentially libelous statements with no sources. I have removed everything but a single sentence so that properly sourced material can be added back. Frise 15:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Can I get this closed out? Article has since been fully rebuilt with properly sourced material for all statements. Tabercil 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Clive Bull Template:Blpwatch-links

Helper1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a new account, is repeatedly inserting this edit, which among others claims that the subject (who is married) seduced a woman via his late-night talk show. The edit alludes to various podcasts which Helper1 has claimed are publicly available - I have asked for him to be more specific as to where to find them, and I don't believe that the current references to them are adequate verification - at best they are too vague. Helper1 continues to revert. The article has been a focal point for hoax vandalism in the past, and I would like some more eyes on this. I have tried a Google search and found nothing relevant on the web. --Sam Blanning 22:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Do as I Say (Not as I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy Template:Blpwatch-links

Do as I Say (Not as I Do): Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - This book, published by Doubleday and written by Hoover Institute research fellow Peter Schweizer, contains chapters entitled things like, "Hillary Clinton — Greedy Speculator, Corporate Shrill, and Petty Tax Avoider" and "Ralph Nader — Bourgeois Materialist, Stock Manipulator, and Tyrannical Sweatshop Boss". Is listing these titles a violation of WP:BLP? // Lawyer2b 03:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

In general, reporting "X said Y", if, in fact, X did say Y and either (a) X is a reliable source of information about Y or (b) your article is about X is ok from a BLP standpoint. But good grief ... this article needs help. It should not be giving WP:NPOV#undue weight to the author's claims and it really needs to cite SECONDARY sources of information about the book. BigDT 03:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is essentially a recapitulation of the book, with a lengthy quotations for most chapters (that is, for each liberal person being attacked by the author). For example, the section (in the Misplaced Pages article) that discusses the book chapter on Barbara Steisand is over 500 words long. It contains sentences like Although she claims that the working men and women of America deserve higher wages, her production company, Barwood Films, usually films in Canada, where she can pay lower wages and receive tax breaks that she cannot get in the United States.

I don't think that the article about the book could possibly be considered NPOV unless it summarized each chapter in three sentences or so; what's there is way too much like mini-articles that present only one point of view (the author's). John Broughton | Talk 22:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

An article about a book should be primarily based on secondary sources. It should talk about the impact of the book, about what people have written about the book. It should not be an opportunity to present the POV of the author without balance/context, and it should not violate content guidelines. Guettarda 22:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have examined a few dozen WP articles about controversial and non-controversial non-fiction books, and almost all of them consist primarily of of a description of the contents. I make no claim that this is a proper study--just what is known as "range-finding". DGG 23:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

John Orr

Would someone mind checking this out? I've read a reasonably reputable synopsis of this dude, so can't bring myself to remove stuff I know is accurate, but I suspect it is in a poor state. If not, let me know so I can stop worrying. Thanx 68.39.174.238 06:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC) (PS. I don't have on hand the source I'm referring to, so I can't use it to source this... ARGH!)

Periyar RamasamiTemplate:Blpwatch-links==

It is potentially libellous allegations without any any citations which I have asked for.The wording are not encyclopedic. 1: Periyar being likened to Hitler is potentially libellous as Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths whereas Periyar was not guilty of even one.Further no evidence or citation is given this comment.Periyar turned the offer to become the head of the Madras Presidency in 1939 after the Congress quit but he turned it down now to compare Hitler is wrong.

2:Brahmins:comments like The population of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu, which was about 10% in the 1920s, is today less than 3% as a result of persecution by EVR and his followers are strange as not even a Single Brahmin has been killed in the entire Dravidan movement. Further Rajaji,Jayalaitha and Janaki who were Chief Minsiters were Brahmins and ruled Tamil Nadu longer than any other single community and these statements are not backed by citations or evidence which are required.Jayalalitha is the head of a Dravidan Party

3: And the wording should be encyclopedic none emotional and contraversial lines like Within a span of 20 years, the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu, who had been living there for more than 2000 years, were turned into alien immigrants by the DK's propaganda. The speeches called for the elimination of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, and the enslavement of Brahmin women. The speeches harkened back to an ancient Tamil glory, similar to Hitler's revival of ancient Germanic culture are not abcked by citations or Evidence

4:Further some one blanked His Childhood and Education.Even today there was mass deletion by 192.223.243.6 which was reverted 5:Only 1 name needs to be used either Periyar or EVR not 2 creates confusion to readers particularly foriegners.Periyar is how he is known.Tamil Nadu Government refers to him as Periyar.http://www.tn.gov.in/government.htm.He is refered as Periyar in Tamil Nadu Government. Periyar University is called named after him and Also, convention suggests that the most common name be used as far as possible in the text of the article Vandalism is done by 80.195.10.170 who vandalised the page 3 times .Harlowraman 10:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not the place for disputes about deceased persons. Please following Misplaced Pages:dispute resolution. Andries 00:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Lyndon LaRouche Template:Blpwatch-links and related articles

These articles are being used to showcase the theories of three minor critics, Chip Berlet, Dennis King, and Tim Wohlforth. These three all have similar views, which are esoteric and out of the mainstream. It would be proper to devote perhaps one paragraph to their shared theories. However, two of them are editors at Misplaced Pages: Cberlet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Dking (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and they are very aggressive about promoting themselves and their viewpoints in these articles, and apparently in other articles as well. I believe that some of their allegations may be libellous, but because they have been published (or in some cases self-published) it is argued that they must be included in the articles. They also have friends at Misplaced Pages who support them (as seen elsewhere on this page.) I think at the very least there are violations of WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. --Tsunami Butler 15:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

These three all have similar views, which are esoteric and out of the mainstream. Both Cberlet and Dking are published authors, based on their user pages (and following a link); I suspect they can recognize libel when the see it, before they put it in writing. And it's pretty clear that Cberlet and Dking think that LaRouche is, well, to put it mildly, a bit unusual. Which would tend to make their opinions on that matter the mainstream view, actually.

It would help if you provided some diffs here (or even specific wording that bothers you), rather than broad generalities. Details will give other editors a much better idea of what you consider "esoteric" and what you think might be "libellous". (As far as undue weight, that's really a matter for talk/discussion pages of articles, unless an edit war breaks out.) John Broughton | Talk 21:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, these three authors allege that LaRouche is a fascist and that he is in favor or some sort of totalitarian state. I consider this possibly libelous because LaRouche has campaigned for over 35 years against fascism. These three make insinuations, without offering evidence beyond a technique of "decoding" where Dennis King, for example, says that photographs of galaxies that appear in LaRouche-affiliated science publications remind him of swastikas. Wohlforth equates support for government regulation of the economy a la FDR with support for a totalitarian state.

LaRouche has mainstream critics, of course, but they generally criticize him for being a conspiracy theorist, and do not accuse him of conspiring to bring about dictatorship or, as Dennis King does, having a "dream of world conquest." I think that one would have to draw the conclusion that King, Berlet and Wohlforth are themselves conspiracy theorists, and their ideas might deserve some mention, but not a central place in a biographical article. --Tsunami Butler 22:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a diff from yesterday, where Cberlet inserts his own libelous allegations into the intro of the article. --Tsunami Butler 15:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Similar material was added by Dking here in the midst of a rather extensive re-write, and when the potentially libelous material was removed, it was re-added by Phil Sandifer here. --Tsunami Butler 22:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The general case has already been resolved in http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche_2 Dennis King is a respected and published author on LaRouche, and Misplaced Pages is lucky to have him working on the article. Why is Tsunami Butler publishing on every possible noticeboard then? Because Tsunami Butler is simply another LaRouche follower who is attempting to whitewash any negative fact about LaRouche. Please be cautious when reading any statement of Tsunami Butler because many of them are simply incorrect. Mgunn 19:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The Arbcom com case cited by Mgunn was closed in February of 2005. Dking did not register as a user until June of 2005. The WP:BLP policy was first drafted in December of 2005, so BLP issues were never raised in the ArbCom case. Mgunn's interest appears to be POV-oriented, as his edits and comments demonstrate that he is a defender of the neoconservatives (as are King and Berlet,) and LaRouche is an outspoken opponent of same. As I understand it, WP:BLP policy applies universally to articles on living persons. --Tsunami Butler 15:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Cheri DiNovo Template:Blpwatch-links

A series of anonymous IPs, which all resolve to the Asia Pacific Network Information Centre in Queensland, Australia, has repeatedly inserted unsourced allegations that DiNovo, a Canadian politician, was involved in a bank fraud scam in 1992, was saved from prison only by agreeing to act as an RCMP informant, and has misrepresented other elements of her biography. Edit summaries have included inflammatory allegations that a "legion of NDP attack queers" is conspiring to protect DiNovo by burying this information; one of them, charmingly, directly addressed me as "Bearcunt". In the most recent edit, this mythical legion of NDP attack queers even found its way into the article itself.

This has happened six times now. I have tried addressing the matter of BLP policy on several prior occasions, but each time the allegations simply resurface again, posted by a different IP number that still resolves to the same institution. I expect that since they're posting anonymously, the person in question isn't even seeing comments posted to prior IP talk pages. I even tried at one point deleting and recreating the article to remove this claim from the edit history entirely, but as the matter has resurfaced again I've restored the deleted edits so they can be reviewed here. I've even tried searching both Google and the Toronto Star news database to investigate the verifiability of the claims, but whodathunkit? Not a single verifiable source to be had.

Since this happens at completely unpredictable intervals, I'd like a few people to keep it watchlisted just in case this happens again at a time when neither myself nor CJCurrie (the other user who's done reverts on this) are online. And if anybody has any other advice on how we can make this stop, I'm all ears. Bearcat 19:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: the article has now been sprotected; instead, the anon IP has taken to removing administrator comments about the non-negotiability of BLP from the talk page, usually replacing them with a personal attack against whichever Misplaced Pages user reverted the previous attempt to do this. They have also vandalized the user pages of several Misplaced Pages users involved in the dispute, including mine and User:Blue520's. It's really time for this nonsense to stop — what other recourse is there besides continually reverting? Bearcat 18:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Further update: The anon user's latest tactic has been to deliberately insert false links into other articles asserting DiNovo's involvement with other things that she has not been associated with, such as The New Yorker and the band Earth, Wind & Fire, and then to falsely allege that other editors (e.g. User:Durin) placed those links and therefore have a credibility problem. This really, really has to stop, but short of permanently blacklisting all of APNIC, what else can we do? Bearcat 03:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Prem Rawat Template:Blpwatch-links

One contributor (Gstaker (talk · contribs)) thinks that information sourced to an article in the Washington Post should be removed because he thinks the Washington Post is not a reliable source.

Another editor (Momento (talk · contribs)) asserts that allegations of anxiety and heavy drinking can only be made by a qualified doctor if not, as is the case in this article, the article, according to him, violates WP:BLP policy.

I disagree with the reasoning of these two contributors. Andries 00:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that we are citing quite selectively from that article. For example, the reporter describe some outrageous claims made against Prem Rawat by Mishler such as that he engaged in practices to "subdue the ego" that included "stripping devotees, pouring abrasive chemicals on their bodies, and into their mouths, administering drugs, having them beaten with a stick or thrown into swimming pools", that are obviously sensationalists lies (and that even the most staunch detractors will attest to these being lies). I would say that the reason why, whoever added that selective quote did not add the other sensationalist material, may because undoubtedly demonstrates the lack of credibility of these protagonists and of the source. As exceptional claims require exceptional evidence, one could argue that this one-only source is in this case a "poor source" as per WP:BLP. Also note that these sensationalist allegations were never described in any secondary sources, probably because of lack of credibility. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The claims that you classify are as exceptional are not in the entry nor does anyone currently wants to add them, so I think that your comments are irrelevant. I omitted adding that part of the Washtington Post article to the entry because I could find no corroboration, in contrast to the claims of heavy drinking. I cannot know whether the excerpts that you quote are sensationalist lies or not because I was not there, though again, I do not intend to add them to the entry. Andries 00:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Good original research, Andries. Selective quoting from one article, based on your presumption of lack of corroboration for the part you did not quote, but omitting the fact that there is lack of corroboration for the part you did include, is violating NOR and demonstrates a lack of good editorial judgment in assessing the reliability of a source. Any editor reading the whole quote will know that this is sensationalist BS and will avoiding touching that source in a BLP as being "poorly sourced". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In contrast to what you state, there is corroboration of the heavy drinking allegation that I included both in reputable sources and non-reputable sources. For example in the book by Spohia Collier Soul Rush that is also used as a source for the article Prem Rawat. Andries 03:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, I do not know whether what is written is sensational bullshit and I do not know how to find out. Andries 03:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

(ed conflict)Sources, Andries, sources. An editor can make the assessment that as these extraordinary allegations are not reported in any other source, and given that there are hundreds of scholarly sources on the subject that do not mention any of that, these cab be assessed to be extraordinary claims that do not have the necessary support to be considered anything than a "poor source", in particular given the context in which these were made. As editors we have some responsibilities that we cannot skirt by playing the "I don't know" card. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In contrast to what you write, there is not a single scholarly biography on Prem Rawat. In contrast a lot has been written about the related subejct Divine Light Mission. Of course, I can say write that I do not know when I really do not know and have no way to find out. Andries 04:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, please stop disingenously stating that there is no corroboration of the heavy drinking allegation. Apart from the already mentioned reputable source, somewhat doubtful or non-reputable sources for this are Dettmers statements, and Mishler radio interview. Andries 03:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your statement that I engage in Misplaced Pages:original research when I use my knowledge and my common sense to assess whether sources are reliable in a certain context. Assessing sources is the right and duty of contributors. Andries 04:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The source we are talking about describes the radio interview, so I do not understand what you are saying. There are no other sources corroborating any of these sensationalist claims. Who is the disingenuous here, Andries? Or is it that you believe that it is OK to selectively cite from an article based on an editors' presumptions based on "somewhat doubtful or non-reputable sources"? You may need to refresh your memory on WP:NOR and WP:V, Andries. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sophia Collier wrote in her book that Prem Rawat and his brother got slushed during Millenium '73. Andries 04:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, a 13 year old having some fun maybe?. But that is very different than saying that he "had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol" alongside saying that he engaed in "stripping devotees, pouring abrasive chemicals on their bodies, and into their mouths, administering drugs, having them beaten with a stick or thrown into swimming pools", don't you think? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you please stop mentiong off-topic quotes? That latter quote is not in the article nor does anyone intend to add to the article. Andries 04:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Because if you did add the quotes that you selectively omitted, it will clearly destroy the credibility of the other statement and of the person that made them. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you want me to add it? Andries 04:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

A thirteen year old having fun by drinking a lot of alcohol during an event that he himself described as the "most Holy and significant event in human history will take place in America." is not innocent. Andries 14:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think it is okay to quote selectively from a reputable source based on common sense, personal experience, corroboration form other reputable sources, or non-reputable sources etc. Again, assessing sources is the right and the duty of contributors. You can quote more from the article in the Washington Post if you think that I have omitted something important. Andries 04:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Not OK, Andries, as per my arguments above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you please explain? I do not understand your reasoning. Andries 04:26, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I will try: The article describes the opinion of Misher, saying that in a radio interview he said that PR "had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol". The same article describes him as saying that PR engaged in "stripping devotees, pouring abrasive chemicals on their bodies, and into their mouths, administering drugs, having them beaten with a stick or thrown into swimming pools". These explosive allegations are not mentioned in any other source besides this article. None of the scholarly sources describe these traits even these sources that containing highly critical material, such as these from your favorite Dutch scholars. So, as a responsible editor, and given this is a BLP, we can safely assert that this source does not meet the threshold for being a high quality reference: Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives, WP:BLP advises us. And we should listen to that advise, not dismiss it on the basis of one's knowledge of "somewhat doubtful or non-reputable sources". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Apart from the reputable source the Washington Post the allegation of heavy drinking was also reported by Mishler and another inner circle member called Dettmers in an article by John Macgregor Blinded by the Light that appeared in Good Weekend - the colour magazine shared by The Age (Melbourne) and The Sydney Morning Herald (Sydney) August 31, 2002 (Page 38-42) and in The West Australian (Perth) dated Septembre 21, 2002 Andries 04:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. You forgot to disclose who exactly was the journalist that wrote the article, his trial for conspiring to steal data to harm PR and his students, the judge comments, and the affidavits he signed in which he says that "because of my media connections I was supported by the Group to publish articles that furthered the goal of defaming Prem Rawat and his students" and that "based on no factual evidence, I arranged to publish in two Australian print media publications", etc. So, these sources are as unreliable as these can be. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, the media articles were never retracted by the magazines. And there is another person who signed a similar affadivit in the same affair i.e. Tgubler (talk · contribs) who has not stopped being critical about Rawat. All this suggests that these affadavits were signed to get rid off a nasty litigation instead of a genuine change of heart. Andries 05:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the person that was the co-conspirator about which the judge said to "suffer from a credibility handicap" when he tried to retract his testimony? In any case, you are just speculating. Let these affidavits speak for themselves. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, you do not convince me when you assert that the Washington Post is not a reliable source. Please note that the wording of Washington Post article suggested that Rawat's anxiety was not just a detail of Rawat's private life, but relevant for his notability because of Rawat's claim to bring peace. I admit that the Washington Post would not be the most suitable references if there were multiple scholarly biographies of Rawat, but there is none. Andries 04:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC) amended for grammar 04:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

There are abundant scholarly sources about Prem Rawat, see the article itself, and none of them support these statements, even the most critical ones. The arguments are all laid here for other editors to comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Untrue. The subject of these scholarly sources is Divine Light Mission or Elan Vital (organization). Not Prem Rawat. Where is the scholarly biography of Prem Rawat? Andries 05:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Untrue? These scholarly sources describe him, his youth, the succession, the arrival to the West in the 70's, his marriage, the family rift that ensued, the evolution of the presentation of his message, etc, etc. So again, there are substantial scholarly sources that describe Prem Rawat's life. Do these have the title "Biography"? no. But that does not mean that we do not have sources about him. We do, and plentiful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, untrue. If you think otherwise then please show me one scholarly article that has either an extensive description of Rawat's life or has Rawat as its main subject. Andries 16:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You can keep saying "untrue" until you get blue in the face, Andries. But the fact is that there are many notable individuals about which there is abundant sources describing their life-work, and do not have a biography with an "extensive description of their lives". That does not mean that there is no material about their lives to serve as the basis for article about them in Misplaced Pages, and furthermore, that does not mean that we should use material that is unsuitable (as per the arguments I made above), just because there is not such biography available. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I have observed that you have made the same argument in the pasts in other biographies. These arguments are in contradiction with WP:BLP, in particular when BLP asks asks to be very firm about the quality of our sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How is the Washington Post not a high quality source? Andries 17:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That is a straw-man argument, Andries. I am not disputing the quality of the Washington Post. Please go to to the beginning of this section and re-read the arguments provided. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindent)As one coming fresh to this dispute, I see the Washington Post as a fine example of a reliable source. Further, there is absolutely no requirement that an associate of the subject be a medical doctor, psychiatrist, or psychologist to observe that he was anxious or stressed and that he drank a lot to deal with it. We as the readers can note that the quote is from a former associate and not from the man's doctor, who would in any event be forbidden from releasing such information by the strictures of medical ethics. The quote should be attributed to the person who said it, and should be complete enough that it is not taken out of context. Claiming that it is a "minority view" violating Misplaced Pages policy since most of the man's other followers have not described him as anxious or a heavy drinker is a red herring. The quote appears well sourced and should be included. If the other editors have a quote wherein a follower said in a reliable publication that he was not a drinker and was not anxious, they should add that. That is how a NPOV treatment of a subject works. Edison 00:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Jossi is mistaken when he writes as I may sunmarize his way of reasoning that a reputable source completely stops being a reputable source if it makes an uncorroborated implausible statement. Yes, may be he is right that we should omit mentioning in the Misplaced Pages entry the uncorroborated statement that he considers implausible (which I did). But of course, we can still use the corroborated statements from the reputable source for the Misplaced Pages entry. I think Jossi's reasoning "demonstrates a lack of good editorial judgment in assessing the reliability of a source", to use his own words. Andries 14:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

You summarise Jossi well - "maybe he is right that we should omit mentioning in the Misplaced Pages entry the uncorroborated statement that he considers implausible (which I did)". Exactly!. Be true to truth.Momento 15:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Edison, for your comments. Note that the discussion was not about about if the Washington Post is a reliable source or not, or if the comment made by these persons in the article can be attributed to them. The question was about the selective quoting from that source to avoid giving readers the possibility to understand the context in which they made these comments. Any sensible reader will most probably dismiss these outrageous allegations, if the have the opportunity to read all what they said. Andries decided to just add a specific allegatiion that in his opinion is plausible, while omitting others that are, in his opinion, implausible. My contention is that when you cite you cannot make these "editorial decisions", as you are engaging in a clear attempt to enhance the reputability of the source by selectively omitting material that shatters the credibility of the source. So, either we, as responsible editors do not use that source in a BLP, or we cite the comments of these people without selectively omitting other material. My opinion is that we should not use that source on the basis of it being "poorly sourced" in a BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:02, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Jossi, I consciously added only material from the Washington Post that is corroborated and omitting that is what uncorroborated. I often leave out uncorroborated statements from reputable sources or statements that I consider implausible. I am not going to change my habit in this regard of making good editorial decisions. Feel free to add more information from the Washington Post that will allow the reader to make an informed decision about the accusations. Andries 09:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

An exceptional, sensationalst claim that is negative and uncorrororated from a biased, ex-employer who died in the 70's is unacceptable in a biography of a living person. That a newspaper reproduced this claim doesn't excuse it from failing every other test for inclusion.Momento 08:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, I think it is a non-exceptional claim voiced in a reputable source (Washington Post) that is more or less corroborated by other reputable sources such as Sophia Collier's book Soul Rush and by another inner circle member i.e. Dettmers (in among others an article by John Macgregor Blinded by the Light that appeared in Good Weekend The Sydney Morning Herald (Sydney) August 31, 2002). In addition it is corroborated by yet another inner circle member in a non-reputable source. Here Momento admits more or less that it is a non-exceptional claim Andries 08:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Straw man argument, Andries. The Washington Post article includes material from the same person that is my all means and "extraordinary claim". You decided to "censor" that material and leave other material that you consider to be not extraordinary, when it is when taken as a whole. John McGregor's legal imbroglio, and subsequent ruling by a judge coupled with his apology renders that source to be of the same quality: "poorly sourced". As per BLP, that material has no place in a WP article. Your continuous efforts to keep a partially censored reference to that Washington Post article, without addressing other editor's concerns about that material is a case of WP:POINT. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Extremely unconvincing Jossi, if you want the full story to be told to the readers then feel free to add more material from reputable sources. I have no problem adding it myself though you never answered the question whether you want me to add it. Do not censor well-sourced material from from reputable sources. Andries 20:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ask yourself this question Andries. If a 30 year old exceptional and sensationalst claim that is negative and uncorrororated from a biased, ex-employee who died in the 70's turned up in a local paper about (insert any notable person), would you include it in their autobiography?Momento 20:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Non-exceptional, corroborated claim voiced in a national newspaper from one of the few persons who could know. Andries 20:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

MIshler is not a reputable source and no scholar or journalist has corroborated his claims. Jossi, could you please block Andries from the PR article?Momento 19:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

You omitted some of material, because they shatter the credibility of the source. When taken in their totality, that material violates WP:BLP. You cannot cite only what you perceive as credible ands omit what you perceive as plausible. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I only wrote down material from a reputable source that is corroborated but I have no problem to cite more even if this what you describe shatters the credibility of the source. Can you please explain how this violates WP:BLP without repeating your unconvincing arguments? Andries 21:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No reputable source corroborates Mishler. He is a biased source, making exceptional and sensational claims that are not corroborated by any of the scholars who have written on PR.Momento 23:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Untrue. Again, there is not a single scholarly reputable article let alone book that treats Prem Rawat extensively. If you think otherwise then please provide such a source, as I had already requested to Jossi without result. In the absence of such sources, it is perfectly okay to use secondary source material from reputable newspapers, such as the article in the Washington Post. I would agree with Momento that if multiple scholarly reputable biographies are available, like in the case of Adolf Hitler then it would not be okay to use secondary source material from newsapers. Andries 19:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Untrue? There are nearly 100 notes and nearly 50 references cited for the Prem Rawat article and not a single one repeats Mishler's claim. We know Melton was aware of Mishler's sensationalist claims (and probably all PR scholars) but he quite rightly ignored them. Your suggestion that in the absence of any negative evidence from the dozens of reserarched and scholarly articles, editors should include negative material from a biased, ex-employee would turn Misplaced Pages into a gossip column.Momento 21:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, untrue, again show me one single scholarly reputable article that treats Prem Rawat extensively. Andries 23:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not my responsibility to provide you with a scholarly article that supports your claim. I say they don't exist. You find one. Wiki policy is The responsibility for justifying controversial claims in Misplaced Pages, of all kinds, but especially for living people's bios, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim.Momento 20:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

There are hundreds of sources used in that article, making it one of the most extensively and meticulously sourced in Misplaced Pages. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Stop evading my question Jossi. You motivated your exclusion of the Washington Post article by saying that there are many reputable scholarly sources on Rawat. I am still waiting for the title of one reputable scholarly source that extensively treats Prem Rawat. Andries 00:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Phil McGraw Template:Blpwatch-links

An anon is adding disgusting libel to this article. I've blocked them for 24 hours, but be on the lookout. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed uncited material about ethical violations in Texas. CyberAnth 07:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

John Cena Template:Blpwatch-links

On the article's talk page, we're looking to get consensus on whether or not putting statements about anal sex into his personal information section is relevant or not. To sum it up quickly, John Cena is a professional wrestler. Apparently in October, he made a statement on the Howard Stern radio show that he isn't into anal sex. It's been added, reverted, added, and reverted off and on in the past month or so. We'd like some outside views on this as to its relevance within the confines of the article (does the fact that the section is all about personal information open it up to something like this?) and whether this is an issue at all in terms of the guidelines for BLP. Thanks, Metros232 06:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it is completely irrelevant, particularly since it's a denial. You may as well list all the arenas he hasn't wrestled in.Momento 21:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been added back again with no consensus to do so yet. So I'm not sure how to handle this situation. There are about 2 users who want it in and 2 or 3 who don't. I'd appreciate more input on the talk page. Metros232 13:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Earl Mindell Template:Blpwatch-links

This is an author whose article is on the radar of several POV pushers who want to highlight the dubiousness of some elements of the subject's history and current activities. The main reason I'm posting here is because some of the sources for references (like quackwatch) are out of my experience as to whether or not they are acceptable. POV creeps into the article on a regular basis also. Anchoress 10:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Steven E. Jones Template:Blpwatch-links

Although I believe his research is nonsense, the talk page Talk:Steven E. Jones#Controlled Demolitions and Common Sense slanders him. I don't feel it's my place to remove the section, because both theories are WP:BOLLOCKS, but could some 9/11 conspiracy theorist comment? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Patricia Kennealy-Morrison Template:Blpwatch-links

My concern about this article is that the subject's own book is used to source the subject's own claims, with no independant verification of the subject's claims being used. I would politely request that the section in question is removed. The section which is poorly sourced is in relation to Ms. Kennealy-Morrison's claims to have married Jim Morrison. There are no sources cited, other than Ms. Kennealy-Morrison's book, 'Strange Days: My Life With And Without Jim Morrison.' I was under the impression that proper sourcing needed to be in place in order to allow publication of claims within Misplaced Pages. I would remove the offending material myself; however, a tendentious editor accused myself and others of vandalism when reasonable changes were made to the article. Maybe an editor is available to take a look at this (but please, not an editor who is already assigned as the 'regular' editor?). This is a high-profile article, when one considers that the claims centre around Jim Morrison, who is to put it mildly, rather well known on a worldwide basis.

BLP applies to unsourced material. This is sourced, and doesn't fall under BLP. The reliable sources guideline is broken, but even it allows the book to be used as a source. Books published by major publishing houses are not considered self-published. Moreover, the claim is very high profile, and I'd think that if there was anything false about it we'd have heard by now. Ken Arromdee 14:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

There have been other sources which have commented on her claims. They could be included to discuss her book's reliability. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Eric Shinseki

User Zsero is repeatedly using a hatchet-job article from the National Review to claim Shinseki was close to insubordination. His/Her edit says that "According to one source, Shinseki came close to insubordination." The cited article is clearly politically biased. It merely quotes "According to an Army source". Does this qualify as the kind of "fact" worthy of Misplaced Pages? The article makes predictions that proved incorrect about Shinseki, namely that he had political ambitions: "Shinseki's retirement two months ago coincides nicely with the planned — but yet unannounced — retirement of Inouye at the end of his current term in 2004. Shinseki will run for that seat, and most likely will win." Inouye did not retire in 2004, and is still Hawaii's Senator. The article goes on to state "any general like Shinseki, whose political ambitions interfere with his willingness to carry out civilian orders, must go".

Frankly, I've looked at this case and I think it's pretty cut-and-dried. Zsero's claim that Shinseki 'came close to insubordination' is found nowhere in the opinion piece used as a source. The word "insubordination" does not even appear in the piece. Zsero calls his claim of insubordination "a perfectly obvious one-phrase summary of what the article says" but I believe any fair Wikipedian looking at it would have to call it original research. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I request that others come and examine the situation as well, as Zsero is very insistent upon this point. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Boris Stomakhin

I have created an article about Boris Stomakhin, a journalist who was recently imprisoned in Russia for exercising his free speech rights. User Vlad fedorov repeatedly inserts citation from an allegedly Stomakhin's article, taken out of context, to defame this imprisoned journalist as a fool and extremist (see last "Further political activity" chapter in the article about him - I will delete it again). Not only such citation is biased, but the cited paper may not actually belong to Stomakhin. The original source of the text is basically a blog run by several young people. Moreover, there are already claims in media that Stomakhin was convicted for articles he actually did not write. I summarized my arguments in Talk:Boris Stomakhin, "Misplaced Pages policy on biographies of living persons".Biophys 21:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC) Would it be possible to have an advice from a neutral person who is familiar with Misplaced Pages policies? Whatever such person decide, I would accept. My only concern is to have an objective article that provide information rather than propaganda from any side. Biophys 01:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I tried to resolve the situation, but apparently it did not work. My arguments can be found in Talk:Boris Stomakhin, but I would like to repeat them here:

"Let's assume that RKO website is a reliable source (which is not). Then, the cited fragment of the text has been selected to demonstrate that Stomakhin is a facist who wants to exterminate all Russians. However this is not true, which is clear after reading this and his his other alleged writings on RKO web site. He only means that military resistance to Russian occupation is legimate (including sabotage or what we call terrorism), because Russians are conducting genocide in Chechnya. He believes that it is as legimate as the resistance against Nazi occupation. That is what he means. No more, no less. He is strongly anti-Russian (you could call him a Russophob), because he wants to protect an ethnic minority (Chechens and others) from an oppression of the kind he believes Nazi did with respect to Jews. So, he is actually an anti-facist, not the facist. Everything is turned upside-down in this article."

You wanted to write that decision of administrator Alex Bakharev who found this source to be reliable and rewrote that passage doesn't suit you. He also found my translation to be correct.Vlad fedorov 19:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that the segment of the text allegedly written by Stomaknin was impecisely translated to English. There is nothing else I can do. I will never again write any articles about "controversial" persons, because there is no way to protect their views and even facts of their life from crude falsification in Misplaced Pages. Biophys 18:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it not strange that Biophys who is russian by nationality living in USA, could do nothing with "wrong" translation? He could suggest better translation, which he didn't. Instead he claims that 'there is nothing else I could do" which is weird.Vlad fedorov 07:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

O'K, I added some statements of ARTICLE 19, Committee to Protect Journalists, Union of Councils for Soviet Jews, etc. in Boris Stomakhin article to show that I am not alone in this opinion. So, we need an objective article about him.Biophys 23:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Please, look at the article "Boris Stomakhin", talk page and its archive. Statement from Committee to Protect Journalists is taken by user Biophys from Blog, and the statement from Union of Councils for Soviet Jews contains false and libelous statements. For more details and facts of user Biophys abusing and violationg Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, please, look at the article "Boris Stomakhin" and its talk page.Vlad fedorov 17:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

A proposal. The situation with Boris Stomakhin article is getting worse and worse. Obviously, we can not have a Misplaced Pages article dedicated to defamation of a journalist who is sitting in prison cell for free speech being "practically paralyzed". This article became an object of vandalism (see talk page), editing war between several partisan editors, and the Russian language sources are even more unreliable than I thought. For example, the texts of the most contentious alleged Stomakhin's paper "Death to Russia" are obviously different when cited by different sources (see talk page). The problem: Stomakin's writings are considered offensive by many Russians. I suggest the following way out of the trouble.

1. Find an arbiter who is not Russian. 2. Exclude any Russian language sources as difficult to verify by third parties. 3. Make an NPOV version of the article and lock it from any further editing. Me (as an original creator of this article) or anyone else can prepare a new version of this article based exclusively on English sources. The arbiter can make any necessary editing and lock it. Another option is to remove the entire paper.Biophys 17:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that the user Biophys in his 'proposal' uncovered his real motives. Boris Stomakhin is a russian politician and talks only on Russian. Biophys wants actually to prevent non-russian users of Misplaced Pages from learning new information from reliable russian sources, beacuse russian sources are not in support of user Biophys views. The incident was already resolved twice by administrator Alex Bakharev and twice he found user Biophys to be wrong.Vlad fedorov 17:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please, pay attention at the request by Biophys, he's currently asking to find 'an arbiter who is not Russian', next time he would ask to find 'an arbiter who will rule in his favor'.Vlad fedorov 19:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

If this proposal about using only reliable English language sources and locking the article is accepted, I would not mind if Alex Bakharev was an arbiter and edited new version of the article that I could prepare. All links to unreliable Russian language sources can be also provided, but they should be marked as "articles allegedly written by Stomakhin", and so on. Biophys 00:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Biophys, please state here all your reasons of unreliability of Stomakhin's articles "Death to Russia". And why there are 'allegedly wriiten by Stomakhin'? For I could critisize any of your sources as 'allegedly written by the their authors' then. I complied with all Misplaced Pages policies by citing Stomakhin's article. May I bring to your attention that according to Misplaced Pages policy I could cite even a blog, but only in case it is written by the subject, e.g. Stomakhin? Vlad fedorov 04:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to pay attention of all people reading this section that Biophys consistently mentions that he could write NPOV article about Stomakhin. Is it not strange that this person consistently asks for such weird things like to remove all sources on Russian, to select non-Russian arbiter, to rewrite himself the article about Stomakhin which is the cause of the dispute?Vlad fedorov 07:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

O'K. I just edited Boris Stomakhin article using Russian language sources and included citation of "Death to Russia" by Sokolov (although I feel this is violation of LP). If Alex Bakharev or any neutral 3-rd party editor (I suggested non-Russians to avoid nationalistic feelings) verified this text now for consistency with LP policy and corrected it as needed, that would solve the problem I hope. Biophys 04:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Not Ok. The version created by user Biophys lacks important facts, it cites third-party blogs (unreliable sources), it contains original research in citations of Stomakhin from court sentence. Biophys also deleted the most serious statements by Stomakhin, leaving his most moderate citations. He also excluded without any grounds the fact that Stomakhin political view is to exterminate all Russians. Excluded many facts such as false facts contained in Statement of Union of Councils of fU Jews. This perversions of the facts and personal edits of Stomakhin's citations by Biophys are intolerable.Vlad fedorov 05:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The user Biophys right now reverts my additions to the article which add citations of Stomakhin which are contained in the official court sentence for Boris Stomakhin. He deletes my additions without any explanation by telling me that he complies "LP policy". Is it LP policy to delete additions which are supported with reliable sources?Vlad fedorov 06:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see also http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Anna_Politkovskaya#Death_.26_Putin.27s_birthday and http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Anna_Politkovskaya#Unsourced_speculation to see that I am not alone who are fed up with Biophys political propaganda. Even non-Russians complain that Biophys publishes propaganda in Misplaced Pages.Vlad fedorov 08:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Mikkalai, the Boris Stomakhin article is better now. Still, the article is even more biased than the court sentence used for conviction of Boris Stomakhin. This is very easy to fix. Can I do it? I do not want to be involved in the editing war again. Biophys 20:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't want you, Biophys, making any edits, since you have already made some. User:Mikkalai deleted the most extreme citations of Stomakhin, as he had written in talk page. The court sentence is never biased, with the same, your own personal logic you may dispute the legality of any court sentence and sanity of any person including me. The thing you must remember is that you ain't the only sane person in the world, and other people have their own opinion too and you must live with that opinion. The article must be balanced. You couldn't write that Stomakhin is innocent having an official court sentence that established he's guilty. The only edits you make is to make readers feel that Stomakhin is really innocent dissident and not a criminal, which contradicts to the facts and reality. These human rights activists (Novodvorskaya, Gannushkina) you cite have acknowledged that they never support 'extreme' opinions of Stomakhin, they ackonwledged that writing of Stomakhin were indeed "extreme" they also acknowledged that they do not share views of Stomakhin - which is not written in the Wiki article. You already have distorted the real meaning of their opinions, and I won't allow you to distort the article further.Vlad fedorov 12:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Not only this court sentence is biased; the entire case was fabricated. This is not my opinion. That was argued by journalist Vladimir Abarinov , ARTICLE 19, Elena Bonner, Vladimir Bukovsky and other notable people and organizations. Yes, Stomakhin was convicted for his "extreme" opinions and nothing else. But this Wkipideia article paints him as a fascist who was rightly convicted. This is done using citation out of context and unreliable sources. This is wrong. Biophys 19:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC) Would it be appropriate if we include in the article about Vladimir Putin everything that is written about him at the RKO web site you are using for Stomakhin? Biophys 21:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Your personal opinion that 'Stomakhin case was fabricated' is already presented in the article. So I would like to cite again administrator Mikka's question for you: "What's your problem?". Should we include in all the Misplaced Pages articles your personal garbage and conspiracy theories? Look at George W. Bush article, isn't it pretty good article for a man who triggered 600 000 Iraqi civilian deaths? If you acknowledged that Stomakhin published 'extreme' opinions why had you deleted them regularly from the article? Why had you edited them thereby making original research? Let us assume that I believe that Western Civilization is barbaric. Should I write in corresponding Wiki article citations of Osama Bin Laden and Co.? Should I edit opinions of the Westerners like you did in Stomakhin article? I have established clearly that your sources are blog entries and contain false facts and accusations which contradict to prevailing majority (90 %) of sources. You also was caught writing your personal opinions referencing them to Novodvorskaya and Gannushkina. The problem with you is that you are bad faith conspiracy theories writer. Other people have told the same. Think over it.Vlad fedorov 09:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

So, you believe it is appropriate to cite unreliable blogs by extremist groups (like RKO web site) or "yellow press" (like Sokolov) in the articles about living people like Vladimir Putin and others. This is great. Biophys 15:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC) I left my answer to Mikka in Stomakhin talk page and can repeat my main point here. The texts of citations of alleged Stomakhin paper "Death to Russia" by Sokolov and extremist RKO web site are clearly inconsistent with each other (two first phrases in the continuous citation by Sokolov can not be found in the "complete" text of RKO site). Therefore, I believe both sources are unreliable and this citation should be excluded from the text of this article, although the link to "alleged" Stomakhin writings can remain. Another important point: the context of citations from the court sentence must be explained, as I did. Otherwise, this is misrepresentation (which in my field would be equivalent of scientific misconduct) Biophys 15:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Biophys are you psycho? You could read my thoughts? Explanation of citation from the court sentence which is reliable is a matter of original reseach. I find citations of Stomakhin from his articles at rko.marsho.net reliable. They include all that is cited by Izvestia. You intentionally trying to advance violently the idea of necessary comparison of every sources to establish their reliablity. If you will compare texts written at rko.marsho.net and zaborisa.narod.ru, zaborisa.marsho.net of course you will find discrepancies. Since the latter two sites were created when Stomakhin was arrested and it's clearly not Stomakhin who wrote (or edited) the articles (material) on them. So what you whine about? About your "inability" to find citations in Stomakhin articles. It's your personal problem. By the way, you cite Bonner and Litvinenko and Bukovsky from these same sites and you seem pretty well contented with the source. You cite statements of HRO from blogs and you find it pretty good.Vlad fedorov 04:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I cited Bonner and others from "zaborisa.narod.ru" which is not RKO web site. You took the text of court sentence from zaborisa.narod.ru.Biophys 23:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC) We must stop this discussion. So far, you have made several hundreds of edits in Misplaced Pages. Almost all of them are about defamation of Stomakhin or Jewish organizations. Biophys 00:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you chief here to order me to stop discussion? If you want to stop discussion, then you are about to leave Misplaced Pages, if you can't discuss, but to harass then quit. Your only contribution in Misplaced Pages except miserable copied articles on Biophysics - are directed against Russia and they consist of conspiracy theories unsupported with any evidence. Isn't that you who deleted citations from Guardian on Politkovskaya which said she was widely critizised? You don't like truth? Zaborisa.narod.ru and zaborisa.marsho.net - are copies of one and the same site. You even unable to study sources you write from in Misplaced Pages. I haven't been defaming jewish organizations never. If I wrote that the statement of a jewish organization contains false facts, then it was not defamation, clearly. By the way, applying the same criteria, you have defamed Russian Federation, Russian Courts, Serbsky Institute, Boris Stomakhin, Novodvorskaya, Gannushkina - because you attributed false citations of them. I have counted 6 persons which you defamed with one breath. By the way there are some jews among them and jewish organizations. Let's look at the talk page for Boris Stomakhin - I think it's no comment and everything is clear. How much times you've been falsifying ('summarizing') citations from these sources? The only thing you have against me is citing from what you personally consider "unreliable" source. Two Misplaced Pages administrators have found my source to be reliable. So, I repeat once more, what's your problem, boy?Vlad fedorov 04:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way you have just started edit war with administrator Mikka. I would ask him either to lock the article or to ban you from editing it.Vlad fedorov 04:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Since my editing has been reverted by Mikka (no edit wars!), I included "totally disputed" tag in the article.Biophys 20:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You have to provide why you dispute the article as a whole and provide the evidence in support of arguments right here. All your arguments above were already decided by two Wiki administrators and they had found them to be wrong. The opinions you wish to be included in the article were included although some of them were taken from blogs which is in violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Don't freak out your loss in the Misplaced Pages dispute. If you will persist in vandalizing the page I would report it at vandalism noticeboard.Vlad fedorov 07:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. Please see my arguments in Talk:Boris_Stomakhin#Article_development.Biophys 17:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have seen no one valid argument. All your presented arguments were already reviewed by two wiki admins and were found to be wrong. So you told nothing new and edited the article again. Your uninvited and ungrounded edits were reverted. I warn, I report you as vandal.Vlad fedorov 08:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Then I can only copy and paste my arguments here, exactly as they appear at the talk page. This is typical case of defamation of LP using controversial sources. "Yes, no problems with correcting wrong citations. But the citation itself was actually correct ("Jesus Christ was crucified not by the Jews, but by Chechens"). That was deliberate disinformation. Let's take a look at another possible disinformation in this article. The text cited by Maksim Sokolov includes the following continuous text (Russian): "Чеченские шахиды взрывают это тупое и бессмысленное российское население не зря... Все равно только зря землю бременят... Убивать, убивать, убивать! Залить кровью всю Россию...". Two first sentences cited by Maksim Sokolov can not be found in article "Death to Russia" allegedly written by Stomakhin. This also looks suspicious for the following reasons. First, RKO web site obviously has no any editorial oversight; they can post absolutely anything. Second, the "articles" in RKO site are not dated. This is serious. Any written production must be dated, even personal letter. Otherwise, it is not admissible. Third, Maksim Sokolov did not say what he had actually cited. He did not tell this is "Death to Russia" or anything else. We compare two dubious texts and can see that, yes, they are different! The citation by Sokolov without any reference to the source is also not admissible. Fourth, journalist Vladimir Abarinov claimed that some texts allegedly written by Stomakhin and used for his conviction actually were not written by him (!). Fifth, article "Death to Russia" was not cited in the court sentence, although they tried to find the most incriminating "evidence". I am not doing any original research here. This is simply an examination of sources. My position is very simple and clear: Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. (and these are are not simply "controversial" materials; these are mutually contradictory and controversial materials). This is not POV issue. If you think the article is POV, one can cite the Stomakhin's court sentence as many times as necessary (but not out of the context). It is also O'K to represent Sokolov opinion (but without his contradictory citation). It is O'K to provide a link to RKO site, because we are not responsible for content of other sites. None of the administrators told me these arguments are wrong

Biophys 17:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Biophys you have failed to cite specific rule from Misplaced Pages which you thought I violated. It's pathetic and laughable to see that you just write empty words. I could copy-paste too. "Biophys are you psycho? You could read my thoughts? Explanation of citation from the court sentence which is reliable is a matter of original reseach. I find citations of Stomakhin from his articles at rko.marsho.net reliable. They include all that is cited by Izvestia. You intentionally trying to advance violently the idea of necessary comparison of every sources to establish their reliablity. If you will compare texts written at rko.marsho.net and zaborisa.narod.ru, zaborisa.marsho.net of course you will find discrepancies. Since the latter two sites were created when Stomakhin was arrested and it's clearly not Stomakhin who wrote (or edited) the articles (material) on them. So what you whine about? About your "inability" to find citations in Stomakhin articles. It's your personal problem. By the way, you cite Bonner and Litvinenko and Bukovsky from these same sites and you seem pretty well contented with the source. You cite statements of HRO from blogs and you find it pretty good".

"The references at the end of each citation clearly show source from which they were taken. They are contained in the article of Stomakhin (all two citations) and Sokolov's article (the first citation). Citation in Sokolov's article and Stomakhin's article completely corresopond to each other. Moreover, citation in Sokolov's article evidences that the article of Stomakhin 'Death to Russia' published at http://rko.marsho.net/articl/mashadov.htm is an authentic text. Therefore, in addition to citation of Maksim Sokolv we could also cite the passages from Stomakhin's article 'Death to Russia' published at . The user Biophys maliciously lies when tells that the article by Maksim Sokolov implies continuos citation from the same article. Here is the whole relevant passage from Sokolov's article:

Стомахин же избрал ясную манеру - "Чеченские шахиды взрывают это тупое и бессмысленное российское население не зря... Все равно только зря землю бременят... Убивать, убивать, убивать! Залить кровью всю Россию, не давать ни малейшей пощады никому, постараться непременно устроить хотя бы один ядерный взрыв на территории РФ... Эта страшная и зловонная Россия должна быть уничтожена навеки". На этом фоне "Майн кампф" - учебник гуманизма. Если сажать по ст. 282 и 280 ("Публичные призывы к осуществлению экстремистской деятельности"), то начинать посадки, очевидно, следует с абсолютного чемпиона. В противном случае статью следовало бы совсем отменить.

Biophys, you have falsified already the article Human rights in Russia, and I've caught you falsifying data. Now you are trying to falsify the present article. Changes reverted. I invite anyone who could read in Russian to the followoing address to judge whether Biophys is falsifying the link and the source. http://www.izvestia.ru/sokolov/article3098675/ http://rko.marsho.net/articl/mashadov.htm I would like to pay attention that the user Biophys is systematically falsyfying the information in the articles Boris Stomakhin and Human Rights in Russia - which are the articles written by him personally. He constantly rewrites, changes, delets the reliable information he doesn't like personally and abuses other contributors of Misplaced Pages. Please read the whole discussion page for the detailed explanation of cases where Biophys maliciosly falsified the information."Vlad fedorov 04:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

See my reply: Talk:Boris_Stomakhin#Violations_of_LP_policy.Biophys 17:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line is:

• Biophys disputes the phrases not contained in the article on Boris Stomakhin, and namely the phrases about Shahids and about stinky Russia.
• Biophys disputes these phrases by comparing them to the source he claims to be unreliable (RKO website).
• one disputed phrase (about Shahids) is contained also at RKO website and match perfectly to that cited by Journalist.
• Some words from the second disputed phrase (stinky Russia) are contained in both the Official court sentence and conviction.
• Biophys disputes here only RKO website, which is not relevant to the dispute right now, because we discuss only Izvestia article.
• Biophys disputes these phrases based on the logic that 'they were probably taken by Maksim Sokolov' from RKO website. But he couldn't know actually.
• Biophys logic is that all Stomakhin citations should be contained on the RKO website, although we know that there are newspaper 'Radikalnaya Politika' edited by Boris Stomakhin and there are publications of other radicals which could have published citation of Stomakhin in question. I don't understand why Biophys think that all Stomakhin citations should be contained only at RKO website.
• Biophys failed to show that there are contradictory phrases. Out of three citation by Maksim Sokolov, two are found at the RKO website1 citation at RKO website2 citation at RKO website and they perfectly match those of the Journalist and one (about 'Stinky Russia') is not found, because Journalist haven't provided sources. The impossibility to found right now missing citation is not contradiction to Izvestia article. The fact that this citation couldn't be found does not mean contradiction.
• The phrase 'worse than blog' is absolutely incorrect in regard of RKO website, since Biophys doesn't have evidence that this site has no any review, Biophys has no information on who runs the website.
• Journalists have the privilege not to disclose their sources, in order to provide the freedom of speech.

And now the basic question: where is the controversy? If Biophys claims RKO website is unreliable, then how he uses this website in order to validate Journalist citations? Vlad fedorov 03:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It was established in discussion that Biophys claims about contradictions in the sources are false. And there are no contradictions between citations of Izvestia journalist Maksim Sokolov and articles written by Stomakhin at http://rko.marsho.net/articl/mashadov.htm and http://rko.marsho.net/articl/tushino.htm. They match perfectly to those which are cited by journalist Maksim Sokolov. Anyone interested may look here http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Boris_Stomakhin#Points_to_answer_for_Biophys and here http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Boris_Stomakhin#quote_.22Death_to_Russia.22Vlad fedorov 07:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to notice that currently Biophys claims that these sources: 1) Unreliable; 2) not neutral; 3) Non-encyclopedic style. Given the history of Biophys contributions and namely insertion of Putin into 'Phallus' article and creation of the deleted latter article on blog "La Russophobe" I suggest anyone to think one more time about User:Biophys good faith. He contributes only to biophysics and anti-Russian materials. He failed to prove the contradiction - which was the main point of his argumentation. He lied intentionally about contradictions. And he deleted the material which he called "contradictory". Biophys believes that there is a plot (conspiracy) by Russian government against extremist Stomakhin sentenced for extremism]. And Biophys tries to delete from the article on Stomakhin all information that could doubt this thought. My citations prove that Stomakhin actually wasn't dissident since he called for violence, called terrorist attacks legitimate and called Chechen terrorists heroes. He wants now to delete these supported by sources phrases from the article on Stomakhin by claiming they are unreliable. But these phrases are supported not only by the official court sentence.Vlad fedorov 07:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Marcus Allen Template:Blpwatch-links

Byron Allen interviewed Ronnie Lott on his syndicated interview show. During the interview Lott says that he and Marcus Allen would not have graduated if Byron Allen had not helped them cheat in an Anthropology class. Should this be included in the Marcus Allen article? --Gbleem 14:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible Lott was joking? If so, it definitely shouldn't be included in Marcus Allen. And even if Lott was completely serious, that doesn't make him an authoritative source as to what Marcus Allen's grades in the anthropology class were. So I would say, no, it does not belong in the Marcus Allen article. --Metropolitan90 23:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been a long time since I put it in the article. I don't think I would have put it in if I thought Lott was joking. They did laugh about it but I think that is just because they thought it was funny in retrospect and not because he was making a joke. Assuming I can get a copy of the video what criteria should I use to determine if he is joking? I suppose someone could interview him again and he could say he was joking. --Gbleem 07:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I see your point on the grades. If I remove the statement about grades could Lott be considered a reliable source on the issue of cheating? --Gbleem 07:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ross Gelbspan Template:Blpwatch-links

I'm not an editor of this article, but the subject of the article has reverted edits to make his entry more favorable. I flagged this for NPOV and expert attention. The Talk page has nothing on it, but these reversion and edit wars seem to be ongoing. I'm mentioning this article here because this may need attention, mediation, etc. I'm not sure if there are guidelines for subject reversions. Experienced mediation help would be great. JazzyGroove 00:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Aaron Proctor

75.8.103.125 had inserted an uncomfirmed bulletin board posting into the References section. -- 19:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Vladimir Putin Template:Blpwatch-links

I recently added some material to the biography of Vladimir Putin that relates to the press censorship and other undemocratic actions of the Putin government. The material has been repeatedly removed by Alex Bakharev with the explanation that minor violations of civil rights should not be included in the biography. I have mentioned in my additions, the widely reported accusations of murder by the former KGB agent in London who died recently of Polonium poisoning. No one can deny that this event is a major news event and has strained relations between Russian and Britain. It should be included in the biography as long as it is carefully noted that it is only an allegation at this point. I call upon the editors of Misplaced Pages to carefully consider the possibility that these deletions in Misplaced Pages may have been instigated by the Russian government itself, a government that is extremely sensitive to criticism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.13.136.170 (talk • contribs).

I don't think this is a issue of BLP concern. Nil Einne 16:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking over Putin's article it seems like it is very much slanted in his favor.Steve Dufour 17:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

'Slanted in his favor' by users inserting unsupported allegations from mass media like Putin has killed Litvinenko, Politkovskaya and so on? You would like to mention he was behind murders of Kennedy, Mahatma Ghandi and Ceasar too, right? You have to look at "George W. Bush" article definitely.Vlad fedorov 08:51, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Cardinal Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir Template:Blpwatch-links

Someone has vandalized the biography of His Beatitude Cardinal Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir by having questions included in the sub-article of his involvement in politics and the removal of information from this article to slander his work as an anti-Syrian nationalist..

Koenraad Elst Template:Blpwatch-links

• Users hornplease and TwoHorned have been persistently editing some material into "Koenraad Elst" over the course of several months that are violations of WP:BLP. The following statements:

"He has also been accused of connections to the Vlaams Blok by Sanjay Subrahmanyam (a professor at University of California, Los Angeles) in the Times of India"

is based on one source and a newspaper op/ed to boot. It is an unsupported statements and has the connotations of an opprobrium, making it a BLP violation unles it is sourced more reliably.

"has contributed with other interventions described by Prof. R. Zydenbos on his homepage as emanating from right-wing circles in Belgium"

is based on the following linke:

It is a geocities site. It's authenticity cannot be verified. We do not know if it really belongs to Zydebos, who is not notable enough to have his criticism mentioned. Also, BLP#Reliable Sources clearly states:

"Information found in self-published books, newspapers, or websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject"

This is clearly a diatribe written against Elst by this Zydebos chap who has not published it anywhere other than his "website" so BLP mandates that it be removed

These points have been raised, but hornplease and TwoHorned keep adding them in and mass revert-warring with a clear intent to defame Elst on wikipedia (as their talk page posts indicate) based on political biases and various degrees of ethno-religious bigotry expressed by hornplease.// अमेय आर्यन DaBrood 16:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

ConcurBakaman 03:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Concur. TwoHorned's BLP violations were also discussed at an WP:RfAr, but we assumed good faith and didn't take any action then. User:Hornplease is a member of the BLP project, and regularly and often deletes "pov" from other BLP articles, so he should know better than supporting WP:BLP violations, and should also treat articles about people he dislikes the same way. (Though to his credit he recently removed OR from the article.) --Bondego 14:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Kathy Boudin Template:Blpwatch-links

Kathy Boudin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article shows rampant POV, seemingly looking to paint her as a one-dimensional mad leftist radical. The writer knows nothing about her or her views or the work she did in prison, or her dedication to peaceful change in the current time.

Note: The articles on her husband, as well as the Weather Underground as they are on the same touchy subject show the same bias. Fair treatment of individuals does not mean an indictment of their beliefs, no matter how radical they may be. Winnebagan 01:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Tony Martin (professor) Template:Blpwatch-links

This biographical article falls considerably short of the standards of Misplaced Pages; it is full of unsourced claims and it is completely biased in its presentation of a controversial, if obscure, individual. Tony Martin is "considered by many to be the foremost scholar on the life of Marcus Garvey"? Really: by whom, exactly? What is the rating system for evaluating scholars of Marcus Garvey? The article also claims that Martin's work, "The Jewish Onslaught"--one of the most patently and ludicrously anti-Semitic diatribes to have been published in America in recent years--was written in response to efforts by the Anti-Defamation League and other Jewish groups to repress Martin's scholarship. Is this claim documented? Is it even credible? It is further worth asking why this article stops its narration of Martin around the year 1993: has he done anything of merit since then? Has he published a book since "The Jewish Onslaught"? Or have "the Jews" succeeded in their efforts to "silence" him?

Far from being a first-rate scholar of Marcus Garvey, Martin since the mid-nineties has been nothing better than a second-rate Leonard Jeffries. His Misplaced Pages article, to the extent that he merits an article at all, should reflect this.

I have attempted to clean up that article as much as possible to make it compliant with our content policies. It still needs the attention of an editor knowledgeable on the subject, though. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Viera Scheibner Template:Blpwatch-links

The information contained in the Criticisms of this living person's biography is POV and potentially libelous, and therefore should be deleted. POV criticism of the critics has also been removed demonstrating a bias. The habitual replacement of libelous material seemingly indicates a vendetta against Viera Scheibner.

Agreed that this needs watching, but not with the reason. This is about a content dispute between mainstream/skeptical editors (who view Scheibner as a quack) and supporters of her medically unqualified anti-vaccination activities. The article is under major sockpuppet attach from the latter. 82.25.234.106 15:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Mark Rathbun

He was a Scientology leader but has dropped out and seemingly become a non-person. About half of his article is taken up by conspiracy theories about him by another ex-Scientology leader, Barbara Schwarz. She seems to be saying that he is a bigamist. I tried taking this part of the article out but it was put back by the group of people who handle the Scientology-related articles here. Steve Dufour 16:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

She never wrote that Mr. Rathbun is a bigamist. The problem is that people pick data from her life story and twist it to cause her and Mr. Rathbun harm. These articles on all living persons should be deleted as these kind of reportings on Mark Rathbun, Barbara Schwarz, or others, destroy lives. Misplaced Pages editors are living in the delusion that they have a right to exploit and destroy private lives with rumors and lies and come away with it. There a thousand rumors about these two individuals but also others, and it comes down to that Misplaced Pages editors really do not know these people. My advice to Misplaced Pages contributors/editors/admins: go for quality and not quantity, and stop hurting people and harassing people on Misplaced Pages. - Watchdog2007

If the material is sourced, I don't see a good reason to remove it. I put in some {{fact}} tags, because sources are needed. It seems that he's notable for two things: becoming a Scientology Unperson, and being the subject of Barbara Schwarz's delusions. Because he's notable on his own, it's worth including the stuff about Schwarz. If he were otherwise not notable, that material would be better merged to her article. Argyriou (talk) 19:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Barbara's theories are already well covered in her own article. Steve Dufour 23:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Dufour's claims are ill-founded. He is improperly combining what he believes to be true (i.e., that during the period in question, Mark Rathbun was married to Anne Rathbun) with what Barbara Schwarz believes to be true (that during the period in question, Mark Rathbun was married to her, Barbara Schwarz.) Mr. Dufour has not presented any evidence whatsoever to support the theory that Barbara Schwarz shares his beliefs about Mark Rathbun being married to anyone else. Only if one holds both beliefs would bigamy be implied, and Mr. Dufour has not presented any evidence whatsoever to indicate there is anyone out there holding both beliefs.

For Mr. Dufour to file this report (with no mention of it made on the relevant talk page, I might add) falsely presenting his conclusions, drawn from combining Barbara Schwarz's beliefs with his own, as what Barbara Schwarz "seems to be saying", is manifestly irresponsible. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

If Barbara's theories are patently false then I don't think so much space, about half of the article, should be devoted to them. If her theories might be true then the article shouldn't present his marriage with Anne as a fact, as it does. Steve Dufour 06:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The last time I read WP:NPOV I didn't get the impression that it said "you must either describe what the vast majority of the world accepts as the truth as only something possibly true, or you must abstain from discussing the fact that anyone else has ever believed anything else." If you don't think that "about half of the article" should discuss Barbara Schwarz's claims regarding Rathbun, then please find us more information from reliable sources about Mark Rathbun and then the single paragraph discussing Schwarz won't be as large a part of the whole. -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Should half of Queen Elizabeth's article talk about the theory that she is really an alien lizard from outer space? Steve Dufour 07:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for removing that parenthetical claim "(which quite a few believe)". It's good to avoid straw man arguments. -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

At least a million more people believe the queen is an alien lizard than believe Mark and Barbara are married. :-) Steve Dufour 16:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

And so far not even one person has been presented who believes that Mark was married to Barbara and to Anne -- certainly not Barbara, which makes it an irresponsible misrepresentation for you to bring this here claiming that she "seems to be" making claims of bigamy. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

In that case maybe Barbara's theories should be removed from Mark's article. Steve Dufour 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Mr. Dufour. Please read carefully. The fact that no one believes your original research combination of Schwarz's beliefs and the general beliefs contradicted by Schwarz does not say a single thing about what should or should not be in the article. One might as well say that because no one believes that the Apollo moon landings were both real and faked, it means that Misplaced Pages should never discuss anyone believing that they were faked. Frankly, it seems you are trying to game the system -- first, filing a completely false report that Schwarz "seems to be saying" Rathbun is a bigamist to get the article onto this noticeboard, and then continuing to argue what you think should be done with the article even after it's been clearly shown that your excuse for bringing it here is purely your own misrepresentation. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong with having the article mentioned on the notice board? Do you not want people to notice it? Steve Dufour 06:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)p.s. If only one person believed the moon landings were fake I don't think it would be mentioned in the WP article on them.

What is wrong with sticking with the truth, Mr. Dufour? What makes you think that you are entitled to manufacture an issue to try and make things go your way? What you are doing is the Misplaced Pages article namespace equivalent of POV forking, and just like any determined POV-pusher called out on his misdeeds, you are trying to pretend the issue is whether you get your way, not the fact that you already made all the same arguments and when you didn't convince consensus, you did an illegal end-run to try and dodge consensus. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that the consensus of opinion of Misplaced Pages editors is that a conspiracy theory believed in by only one person, as far as I know that is, should be allowed to take up half the space in an article? Steve Dufour 20:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm saying that if you had a concern about the article which was actually based on the facts and which had not already been rejected by consensus, you would have had no reason to resort to submitting this false report. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited the article so that it was clear that bigamy was not implied. I hope this is a fair representation of Barbara's views. Steve Dufour 20:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

My edit lasted about a day until someone reverted it so that it still looks as if Mark is accused of bigamy. Hopefully a new version will be writen which is acceptable to all. Steve Dufour 16:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the words "the real" in front of Mark's name the first time it was mentioned in Barbara's theory. I hope this is ok with both Antaeus and Tilman as being a fair representation of Barbara's views. Steve Dufour 14:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Matthew Taylor (footballer)

There is an edit war going on at this page between at least 2 people concerning the name of his wife and child/children! Neither person quotes sources or signs themselves, nor do they seem to read the talk page asking them to do this. Hyperman 42 17:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Fred Phelps Template:Blpwatch-links

User:143.81.252.12 has added defamatory information about subject, and was reverted. He re-added the material, but included a {{fact}} tag, and was reverted. The second reverter (who beat me by seconds) also placed a warning on user's talk page; I added a note with further explanation. Hopefully, that will take care of the issue, but 143.81.252.12 may come back, and the material is a rumor which has been floating around a while; if he doesn't bring it back, someone else might. Argyriou (talk) 19:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Edward Speleers Template:Blpwatch-links

There is an edit war concerning this actor's date of birth. In particular, various sources I have found provide two different years (including the actor's website and IMDb). There is a small discussion as to the what the correct birth date is on the talk page, but the article is generally unstable due to the rate at which the birth date is change. We have also seen in increase in vandalism lately, but that is easy enough to remove on a per-case basis. // Todayisdifferent 21:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Norman Finkelstein Template:Blpwatch-links

This is a dispute concerning a edit I made to the biographical section of the article on Norman Finkelstein, a political scientist and professor at DePaul University. Dr. Finkelstein is well known for works challenging certain facts about the Holocaust and the State of Israel.

In all of his publications and public appearances, Dr. Finkelstein makes the point that his parents were survivors of the Holocaust. He has stated that his mother and father were both survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, as well as concentration camps and labor camps.

Whether of not Finkelstein's parents were indeed Holocaust survivors is important because it lends his positions a degree of credibility that would otherwise be absent.

My edits changed the categorical statement that Finkelstein's parents were survivors to statements that these accounts were due to Finkelstein himself.

My changes were removed by another editor who made no attempt to contact me and characterized my changes using extremely disparaging language. I engaged him on the discussion page of the article, and offered to soften the language while preserving the fact that the status of Finkelstein's parents as Holocaust survivors is due to Finkelstein himself and has no independent, third-party verification. I have not been able to resolve this matter in that context.

I have read the guidelines on biographies of living persons and feel that my edit can be worded within those guidelines and that it adds important information about Dr. Finkelstein.

I would like assistance in resolving this dispute. The record of it can be found in the section on "claiming" in the discussion page of the Norman Finkelstein article.

Thanks for your assistance.

Robert E. Rubin Roberterubin 22:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)roberterubin

The question here does not seem to be so much a matter of WP:BLP as of original research, as I assume the parents are no longer living. Have any critics of Norman Finkelstein cast doubt on whether his parents were Holocaust survivors? If the answer is no, then there is no real issue. If the answer is yes, then the dispute can be described. I would avoid writing "the only source is Finkelstein himself" or some such wording, because it implies "I think he's wrong but cannot prove it". Sam Blacketer 13:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a serious problem protecting the BLP of anyone who has criticised Israel, even if they have credentials as good as Norman Finkelstein. It's very, very wearing to take out, over and over again, these unsubstantiated and utterly pointless edits.

Meanwhile, of course, it's impossible to insert any evidence against Zionist politicians, no matter how well referenced and indeed proud they may be of their murderous racism. PalestineRemembered 20:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Itche Goldberg Template:Blpwatch-links

• Itche Goldberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Two days ago an anon listed this person as having died. I can find nothing in news.google.com which even mentions him, let alone his death. I have reverted pending a source. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• • His death has been reported again, with the only reference being alt.obituaries. Still zero refs at news.google.com. User:Zoe|(talk) 04:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Finally found a reliable source for his death - . User:Zoe|(talk) 20:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Prem Rawat

Dispute between Momento (talk · contribs) and Andries (talk · contribs) about repeated removal by Momento of sourced information from the talk page that Momento considers poorly sourced.

This dispute deals with more or less the same material as the Criticism of Prem Rawat dispute that is also listed on this noticeboard in another section hereabove.

Andries 08:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ascended_master

There are a number of problems with the addition of a "Critical" section under "External Links". This article is about the religious belief that calls saints in Heaven "Ascended Masters" and is not exclusive to any one organization or church. It is not about a political party position or a scientific theory; it is simply a religious belief.

Having these "Critical" links does not fit the external links guideline because it is not relevant to the article, rather these links are related to the Church Universal and Triumphant and / or Elizabeth Clare Prophet. Therefore these links could be on the Church_Universal_and_Triumphant or Elizabeth_Clare_Prophet pages if desired by other editors.

Another issue, is from the Misplaced Pages: Three Revert Rule WP:3RR: Reverting potentially libelous material: "All users are encouraged to remove unsourced or poorly sourced blatantly defamatory, potentially libelous information about living persons, whether within a biography of a living person or elsewhere, including associated talk pages. As with vandalism, the repeated addition of such material is best dealt with by blocking and page protection, and repeated reversion should be used only as a last resort. Reverts made to enforce this provision are generally not considered contentious, because they are necessary."

>>> The repeated adding of blatantly defamatory, potentially libelous external web site links attacking any person or organization on a page describing the belief in Ascended Masters, a religious belief held by a number of organizations both in the past and present, is totally out of place - and a violation of the Misplaced Pages policy quoted above (Elizabeth Clare Prophet is still living). This type of behavior interferes with the possibility of Misplaced Pages becoming an objective, neutral, and useful academic reference resource. At the very least, it should be obvious that under no circumstances should "External Links" to defamatory personal attack web sites directed against any individual or church be on an encyclopedia article that is NOT about that individual or church organization. Aburesz 01:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I am currently mediating a dispute on Ascended master, and I would like some opinions regarding whether the links in the critical section of the external links would violate the living persons biography rules or not. Aburesz feels that they are because he believes that they are either unsourced or not sourced properly. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 02:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify a bit more, do external links fall into the living person's rules, and if yes, would these links violate it. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 02:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Nick Baker (chef) Template:Blpwatch-links

I would be grateful for some guidance on editing this article. User Sparkzilla is repeatedly reverting back potentially libelous material on this BLP. His cited sources are of an unreliable nature as the contentious material only appears in two self-published articles contrary to WP:V#SELF. Sparkzilla cannot show that the author is a well-known professional journalist with articles appearing in reliable third-party publications. Now he is trying to invoke the WP:BLP "Using the subject as a source" section to justify it's inclusion. However I believe this to be irrelevant to the case. An authoritative interpretation would be much appreciated. David Lyons 03:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The user David Lyons is attempting to remove any criticism of the Baker case on the grounds that the criticism comes mainly from an editorial written by Mark Devlin, the publisher of Japan's largest English magazine, and a follow-up article in the same magazine. David Lyons want this removed as self-published material.

Contrary to Mr Lyons opinion, NONE of the information in the section comes from articles published by Mr Devlin. I have shown in the talk section, by going through each part of the disputed content, that Mr Devlin's criticism of Mr Baker's support group has at least one third-party confirmation (Swindon Advertiser article) and that in fact, most of the items in the criticism section come from the support group themselves, or directly from comments by Iris Baker, Nick Baker's mother.

Even so, if there were no third-party confirmation I believe that Mr Devlin's reversal of opinion is sufficiently notable, even if self-published.

I have also argued that when a person who is mentioned in an article has made a definitive statement about the case on their personal websites (as both Mr Devlin and Iris Baker have), that their comments should be seen as authoritative as per "the Subject as a source" section of BLP. I would be very grateful for comments and advice. Sparkzilla 13:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I won't bore the authoritative editors here, except to say that my response to Sparkzilla appears on Nick Baker's talk page. David Lyons 17:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I commented in that article's talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Salah Choudhury Template:Blpwatch-links

• Salah Choudhury (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Bangladeshi editor. Uncited negative content is being added. One solution would be to block the person adding negative content, but that editor probably won't be the last, given the level of dislike against him. Andjam 09:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Graham Coutts Template:Blpwatch-links

• Graham Coutts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - currently lacks sources, which given that we're talking about a man convicted of murder is totally unacceptable. I haven't deleted anything because (a) it should be easy to find sources for most of it, but I don't have time right now, and (b) I think the article is important as it documents a key part of an ongoing political debate in the UK. JulesH 15:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Tahir-ul-Qadri Template:Blpwatch-links

• Tahir-ul-Qadri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - completely unsourced and a major cleanup project. The article is periodically subject to the insertion of an opinionated paragraph deriding this individual's teachings and linking to a youtube video. --BigDT 07:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Anshe Chung Template:Blpwatch-links

Blatantly, blatantly, violates BLP. This article is about a person best known through an online avatar, and it seems like all her online enemies have added unsourced negative material to the point where the largest part of the article is the "Controversy" section, almost all unsourced, accusing her of various things. Someone else helpfully added citation needed tags, but didn't delete the negative material. I'm going to delete it, but it'll probably get restored; someone please keep a watch on this. Ken Arromdee 03:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Debbie Schlussel Template:Blpwatch-links

More unsourced "controversies" being added. Need some extra eyes and perhaps someone who's better at working with newbies to deal with this. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I have left a message on the user's page referring him/her to relevant policies and guidelines. It seems like the additions in question are message board posts, which are not verifiable anywhere. --BigDT 04:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh Template:Blpwatch-links

We're having trouble on Rush Limbaugh with some editors consistantly reverting additions quoting Rush Limbaugh on his views of appropriate punishment for drug crimes in the section about his personal drug debacle, claiming that the placement of the quote is POV and libelous per WP:BLP. There seems to be a consensus against this view and in favour of inclusion of the quote, if one can consider collaboration in phrasing the quote to be consensus for inclusion. Could someone please come by and offer us a fresh pair of eyes? GertrudeTheTramp 05:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

This appears to be a content dispute, not a BLP issue, as the statement is sourced. Please consider making a request for comment at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Politics to ask for an outside view, if desired. --BigDT 05:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Julia Allison Template:Blpwatch-links

I along with another editor are having a dispute with Julia Allison. The subject of the article (an "opportunist") is constantly reverting (violation of 3RR) here, here, and here facts and is claiming via e-mail to "report" me for editing "her" article, as well as other threats. I removed her last name, because she was stalked in college, and is afraid of her last name being revealed, because she doesn't want to be stalked in New York City, since she is a sex columnist (Note: Sex is not included because this will harm her "image"). So, I have agreed. But, she wants to upload pictures that I don't feel is necessary to be involved in the article. I pointed to WP:AUTO, but I don't she is understanding or ignoring the policy all together. Would someone please comment on this, because I really am too nervous to sleep over this because I am afraid that she might sue Misplaced Pages over some bull. She has also been a part of controversies as well (i.e. plagiarizing an article in college...I didn't source this because of legal threats) and wants to re-write history. Bearly541 11:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I posted a somewhat lengthy comment at Talk:Julia Allison. I hope it leads to a constructive conversation. · j e r s y k o talk · 16:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reports Bearly. First, please assume good faith and be civil in your comments here: 1. Calling her an opportunist is not necessary; 2. The diffs you posted do not show a violation of 3RR; 3. She followed WP:AUTO and commented on the article talk page about it and hasn't edited the article since; 4. Saying she is part of controversy and has plagiarized is also unnecessary; 5. What legal threats?; 6. Re-write history?? --ElectricEye (talk) 14:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

She took out information after I e-mailed her about WP:AUTO. I am being civil on my comments here. What I mean by threats is: that she was going to report me to Misplaced Pages because I edited her "article" and she is the only person to edit her article. And, she wants certain facts to be said about her...etc. Bearly541 01:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent) I think she is currently editing the article via IP address. If she is currently editing her biography, I think this should fall into WP:AUTO. Real96 17:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

BDORT

Please take a thorough and careful look at this, as I believe it really is clearly defamatory and anti BLP when inspected closely: and . I am representing Dr Yoshiaki Omura on wikipedia with his permission. There have already been malicious defamatory statments about him removed by an Admin. I believe the editor, Crum375, left as the sole editor of this entry is biased against Dr Omura/BDORT as I have outlined here . I requested the Arbitration that has just closed and which decided I am banned from editing the article. Be that as is, it has been confirmed and remedied that the version that was edit warred over for months including by 'Crum375', against my repeated reversions of it and my support of the stub by the last Mediator to end the edit war - contained BLP defamatory information. I know that the remaining BLP information I refer to in the article is presented in a non obvious way, but this subtlety does not lessen the BLP issues one bit, nor the lack of basic accuracy; protracted discussions by me about the points raised with this editor are fruitless. I am not trying to circumvent the ArbCom, but to prevent further real life damage (which has already happened and which the ArbCom has acknowledged privately to me due to privacy issues) and continuing BLP problems remaining. Thanks.Richardmalter 14:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see my response to an identical post by Richardmalter below. Crum375 23:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Warren Kinsella Template:Blpwatch-links

It seems that a couple of editors, one anon 209.217.124.237 (talk · contribs) and one new-ish account Happy Fun Toy (talk · contribs), are keen to promote an attack site critical of the subject of the article. Deleting the offending posts should be sufficient. Bucketsofg 14:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Ira Berlin

Berlin is a historian who writes about slavery and editor joelrosenblum (who has a huge beef with Berlin) has repeatedly posted assertions that Berlin is pro-slavery. He bases this solely on a reading of one of Berlin's books done by students at a high school, citing no scholars who agree with him. I have repeatedly removed the Berlin-is-pro-slavery section (called "Controversial Book Passages") because I think the argument that Berlin is pro-slavery is unbelievably wrong, because I think there is no "controversy" just because one editor and some high school students who obviously don't know much about history say there is, and because calling a historian of slavery who is still alive "pro-slavery" risks libel charges as far as I'm concerned. I'm sick of the edit war and am hoping someone else can weigh in. For now the "Controversial Book Passages" section is in the article (joelrosenblun re-instated it) but I'm arguing that it should be removed entirely because it is absurd and, more importantly, potentially libelous. There is relevant discussion at Talk:Ira Berlin--Bigtimepeace 21:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Danny Pinaturo link to pornographic web site

The following was added to the Danny Pinaturo Misplaced Pages page by user 172.193.116.59 on January 7th at 19:28. It was removed by CieloEstrellado at 22:19 and reinserted again by 172.193.116.59 on January 8th at 4:41am.

According to Campfire Video , Mr. Pintauro has taken out an add on the adult gay male website http://www.manhunt.net/ advertising that he is looking for sexual playmates. The ad includes nude photographs of Mr. Pintauro. " I think the link is inappropriate for both the content the link points to and the link connection to a "for profit" web site. It also violates the Misplaced Pages living biography policy in my opinion: Articles about living persons, which require a degree of sensitivity, must adhere strictly to Misplaced Pages's content policies. Be very firm about high-quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page:

I have removed it again and advised on talk it has been turned over to Biobraphies of living persons/noticeboard. Philbertgray 14:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Biography on Les Balsiger==Template:Blpwatch-links

There is a page on a Les Balsiger that is an obvious bio of a non-notable living person and is also an attack on this individual. "140.211.55.195 22:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)",

• Comment - this article is currently being considered on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Les Balsiger (2nd nomination). I took a look at the article and don't see it as an attack article. --BigDT 05:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - the article is about a living individual who is really not notable at all and is only sourced by religous articles from the source claiming to be wronged and a blog. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.111.81.43 (talk) 05:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
  • Self-contradiction - This is the exact opposite of the comment made by 71.111.81.43 (talk • contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • traceroute) in the first Les Balsiger AfD while deleting another participant's comment:
    • "I do not agree, he is a well known person in Oregon and think he should remain"

--A. B. 19:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill Huard Template:Blpwatch-links

• Bill Huard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - subject of the article edits as User:Hueys20. The article is almost completely unsourced and could use a general cleanup and some assistance, particularly form anyone familiar with hockey, in finding sources. --BigDT 05:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

George A. Ricaurte Template:Blpwatch-links

• George A. Ricaurte (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - This has been a battleground for views on animal testing and the scientific method. Large chunks of unreferenced text with only a peripheral connection to the article subject have been repeatedly added. I have been reverting it to a stub and have said on the talk page that additions require verifiable sources. Could do with someone else having a look to see if you agree with my approach and to help to keep it in shape. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 09:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your approach about the retracted article, except that there is need a citation for both the original article and to the actual retraction in this article, rather than relying on the article on "Severe dopaminergic neurotoxicity in primates after a common recreational dose regimen of MDMA."

But the article lacks balance. He has presumably done other scientific work, and it might be notable. Put it in, possibly as refs to the firtst paragraph.DGG 23:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Gammell Template:Blpwatch-links

• Stephen Gammell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - this article about an author of children's books stayed vandalized for over a month with some nonsense claiming he was publishing pornography books. Several other editors have added unsourced negative information. Please keep an eye on it. --BigDT 05:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

There was no problem when I checked. However...I almost hate to bring this up because he sounds like such a nice guy....but the article is completely unsourced and really gives the impression of a puff piece. Steve Dufour 05:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yisroel Dovid Weiss Template:Blpwatch-links

• Yisroel Dovid Weiss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Edit war, mainly dispute about whether subject is rabbi, per every source, or not per certain editors unsourced opinions. Should be noted that it is debatable whether in the subjects milieu (haredi judaism) there needs to be a formal granting of 'ordination' (semicha) for him to use this title. Although this is a secondary point, as despite claims like 'common knowledge' etc. not a single source has been offered even questioning his claim to the title. There is also the problem that some of these editors wish to introduce rumours about homosexuality, paedophilia, etc. Thanx in advance,  ⇒ bsnowball  16:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Clay Aiken Template:Blpwatch-links

• Clay Aiken (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Edit war pushing POV. This article has been through mediation and arbitration was requested and then withdrawn when a consensus for the topic format was reached. The history is in Archives 10-12. Hoponpop69 (talk · contribs) is now pushing POV edits regarding the sexuality issue and has reverted the page 4 times today. I don't want to get into an edit war and put a warning on his talk page which he ignored. Can someone please step in and help. It appears this user has a history of disruptive edits and has just come off a block. This is the edit that has the consensus Maria202 01:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

2006 corruption scandals in Chile Template:Blpwatch-links

• 2006 corruption scandals in Chile (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) New, well referenced article with much potentially libelous text. The references are in Spanish, which I cannot read to determine whether the statements are true. The article may need someone to review it who reads Spanish. Thanks. -- Jreferee 01:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yoshiaki Omura

• Yoshiaki Omura (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) This article is a biography of a living person in which the content is clearly disputed. While it is protected from editing and correction, false and misleading, poorly sourced, irresponsible and potentially libelous material is being exhibited, and Dr. Omura's reputation is being damaged. This is unacceptable. I have repeatedly removed such material and it was repeatedly replaced, and now I am disabled from editing the article though I am not unregistered or newly registered. PLEASE HELP. We should not need a law firm to help us remove such material.

Sincerely, Telomere+ Telomere+ 07:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of the statements in the article are indeed negative to Dr Omura, but these statements appear to be clearly referenced. What do you mean by "poorly sourced"? Andrew Dalby 13:42, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have explained in some detail in Dr. Omura's article discussion section what I mean by poorly sourced, with examples, prior to removing any poorly sourced portions. My explanation was removed. Why? The main body of this Yoshiaki Omura article seems to have been put together by a person who acts like Dr. Omura's enemy and wishes to damage his reputation. To someone who knows Dr. Omura and works with him, as I do, the negative statements are obviously false and placed with an intent to damage. Please read my explanation in the "my talk" section of Telomere+.

In addition, some references found to contain erroneous information have been changed by their owners already, with apologies to Dr. Omura, and are outdated. My goal is not just to remove the poorly referenced and obviously false information that misleads people, but to publish the truth. As I stated, I have not newly registered; why preclude me from the right to remove damaging untrue material according to Misplaced Pages policy? Please do not refuse to enforce the relevant Misplaced Pages Policy in this case.Telomere+ 02:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Kelsang Gyatso Template:Blpwatch-links

Kelsang Gyatso (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - nothing specific at the moment, but the primary editor of the article is a critic of the subject. There seem to be few other editors, the article is dense, and I think it could use a few more eyes... A Ramachandran 14:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I've put it on my watchlist. Andrew Dalby 14:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Andrew Cohen (spiritual teacher) Template:Blpwatch-links

In Andrew Cohen (spiritual teacher) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), several editors seem intent on adding information from and a link to an anti-Cohen blog. It has been repeated pointed out on the talk page by several other editors that blogs are not reliable sources and may not even be linked to in external links, but these editors persist in resinserting these unreliable sources. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 16:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Read the entire discussion related to the blogs, Ekajati, not just what you want to read. You claim Cohen's blog is inherently permissable because he is the subject, but what is being said is that to the extent Cohen's blog and associated blogged statement of "Integrity" in response to critic's charges, which does really not meet the criteria for use because it contentious; unduly self-serving or self-aggrandizing; and makes claims about third parties and their motives for criticism; and whose claims are to be treated with caution per wikipedia; is being cited, then a critical blog containing responses to those charges by named subjects of Cohen's criticism should be referred also to retain NPOV. If as an alternative material from neither blog is mentioned, or the mere fact that Cohen and named critics have both established blogs advocating their respective positions without further information is mentioned, then you do not have, as you try and suggest, an issue with WP:LIVING that justifies your claims here. Your actual statment that:

"Also, please note that the use of the subject's blog is permitted, but only in an article about the subject. Do not attempt to retaliate by removing reference to and links to Cohen's blog. That could also result in administrative action."

not only mistates the actual policies for when a subject's blogs are not suitable, but does not adequately justify keeping reference to Cohen's blog entries based on wikipedia criteria just because you desire to retain the blog, and does not justify your a priori assumption of bad faith and "retaliation", and threats of adminstrative action based on claimed "retaliation". It is not "retaliation" to respond to your assumptions and POV editing. --Dseer 06:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Your assumption that I am working from a POV is incorrect. I have nothing to do with Cohen whatsover. I am attempting to apply WP:LIVING as written and intended. It is you who have a POV issue, and don't seem to be able to allow WP:LIVING to take precedent over your apparent need to smear the subject. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 19:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

You openly consider editors who disagree with you to be apparently motivated by "smearing" the subject, an admission of a biased and unsubstatiated judgement which proves the POV you deny. Ekajati, Misplaced Pages has three content policies: WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Since the policies complement each other, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. Your POV edits do not take this into account. It is you making personal attacks, issuing threats of blocking and talking about "reprisals" when your one sided, POV edits are challenged. Your repeated explanation for your edits, that "blogs are not permitted per WP:EL", is not what WP:EL actually says, and therefore your edits will be evaluated accordingly. --Dseer 02:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

"Information found in self-published ... websites/blogs should never be used, unless written by the subject (see below)." "A blog or personal website written by the subject may be listed in the external links/further reading section, even if the subject is not used as a source."

In summary, his own blog is permitted as an external link, and his own blog may be used as a source for NPOV biographical facts. No other blog may be, for BLP. DGG 02:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I assume from this summary you may not have read the full discussion here and in the article and considered it carefully as it is written. What I object to is use of selective cites from WP:LIVING and applying them to WP:ELwithout considering all applicable guidance, the impact on NPOV, and the discussion of other editors who already know all that. Per WP:LIVING, if it were true that "information" from the blog was was being cited in the article, it would not be permitted. And per WP:EL, if were true that Cohen's blog did not include "information" including criteria that WP:EL sites as an exception to using material from Cohen's self-published blog, that is being contentious, self serving/aggrandizing, and making unsubstantiated charges about third parties, it would be permitted, either if information was used in the article as Ekajati proposes, or simply kept as a link. But that is not the case. And, this does not mean as Ekajati alleges "links to blogs are not permitted per WP:EL". Rather, WP does not prohibit links where the blog is authoritative and when the link improves the overall article (in this case NPOV). It does not mean Cohen's blog and/or statements from it MUST be referenced or links or face charges of "retaliation" when it skews NPOV and is not really biographical in nature. Further, none of the proposals we were current disputing were to cite information from the critical blog in the article, but simply to identify the existence of (relative to Cohen) the best critical and authoritative link on a reply to Cohen's assertions, whether to provide the link or just reference that it exists, thus WP is not providing derogatory information in the article. Whereas Ekajati proposes to leave as information not even just that Cohen has responded to critics on his blog, to which there is no objection, but that he is quote "setting the record straight" regarding his critics which is a matter of judgement, not fact, while excluding even the fact that critics have responded to his claims when there was no attempt to include information on what those responses were. WP also says both the claims of religious partisans and their critics are to be considered carefully. The intent here is not to put WP in the middle of the dispute or cite poorly sourced information in the article, but simply point out in neutral language the NPOV fact that the dispute exists, and leave it at that. Ideally, true NPOV considers both sides cautiously, and since both sides are using blogs, NPOV would be crafting a way of simply saying something along the lines of Cohen makes assertions on his blog about his actions and critics, and named critics have made assertions about his actions and responded to his assertions about critics on their blog, which keeps to the verfiable facts and without implying Misplaced Pages has taken a position on this particular issue, which omission of either side would. The only concern here of the editors in question preserving NPOV within the framework of BLP, and avoding liability, of course. --Dseer 03:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Exaggerated unsourced criticism keeps being added to the article. Andries 20:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree, and since citation not provided, your deletion was justified. --Dseer 07:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This case should be closed

Ekajati, who brought this unjustified complaint against other editors here rather than engage in dialogue, has been banned for repeated sockpuppetry. Ekajati, A Ramachandran, and Hanuman Das, who have been tag teaming in making similar complaints about editors in various articles, are in fact the same person, along with other "socks". A Ramachandran and Hanuman were confirmed to be sockpuppets of Ekajati. See ]. --Dseer 07:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sourced Rumors

What is the policy on sourced rumors in general? Also here are a couple of particular instances I have questions about:

• What is Misplaced Pages's policy on properly sourced but completely unfounded rumors? Rumors which have absolutely no evidence to back them up, but nonetheless are well known rumors such as the insidious Richard Gere gerbilling rumor that people keep re-inserting into his article.

I'd say, if rumours are really widely circulated (in published sources), and are shown to be false (ditto), it is probably appropriate to mention the fact, with references both to a source for the rumour and to a source for its falsity. Andrew Dalby 13:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• How about completely unfounded rumors which exist but are completely relegated to a small group of people. Such as the little known rumor that Michael Jordan retired in 1993 because he was banned from the NBA for a period of time for gambling? Quadzilla99 22:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

If restricted to "a small group of people", that suggests to me that the rumour is not published and is not notable. For both reasons, not appropriate to a Misplaced Pages article. Andrew Dalby 13:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Lu Sheng-yen Template:Blpwatch-links

Also True Buddha School Template:Blpwatch-links

• Lu Sheng-yen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) & True Buddha School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - unsourced critical information and editorial comments are being inserted into these articles by anons. A Ramachandran 23:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll add them to my watchlist. If the negative opinions of other Buddhist groups can be documented from published sources, I see no reason not to mention them. But if this claim is added to the article without documentation, I agree it should be reverted. Andrew Dalby 13:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Silver Ravenwolf Template:Blpwatch-links

A number of people with negative opinions of the subject are adding links to what appear to be their personal websites espousing this negative opinion. These are self-published personal essays by non-notable people. Some sites appear not to be personal sites, but if you check the copyright notice and compare the name to the site registrant, you will see that they own the site. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 19:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Be careful about neutrality. Since there is controversy, mentioned in the article but referenced only to a pro-Silver Ravenwolf page, the article is at present slightly unbalanced. It's not a good idea to remove all the opposition. Andrew Dalby 20:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

all of the linked articles are personal sites, and given that 1. they're sites of otherwise published authors (not random geocities people) and 2. they're being linked mainly for analysis and things clearly stated as opinion, not spreading of rumors, this seems to be a good way to add legitimate criticism that deserves an airing. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 11:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Policy on Biographies of Living Persons

Thanks for the reminder re: this policy.

I am reviewing entries on living persons in the "List of Surnames of European Royalty and Nobiity" to make sure this Misplaced Pages policy is adhered to.

I am also reviewing the available materials on the Internet to discover any "sensitivity" or "respect" issues (i.e., if an action for libel has been filed by the "offended" personality) have been raised against a "nickname" of a living person which is in this "List".

Kazimieras Garšva Template:Blpwatch-links

• Kazimieras Garšva (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Recently a user has started to remove referenced information that may present this person in negative light (he is a leader of an organization described as 'extremist' among other things). Comments on the talk page appreciated; I am pretty sure WP:LIVE does not mean 'remove all information that does not present the person in positive light'. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The contributor above in particular article began to adding doubtful and poorly sourced information . Among other information, which he added, was doubtful and poorly sourced statement that particular person in question leads and “extremist” organization. Contributor produce only one doubtful and insufficient for such statement source: . Please note that particular source does not talk bout Mr. Kazimieras Garšva at all. The only lead to Mr. Kazimieras Garšva in this source is only one time mentioned word “Vilnija”. As I stated several times in different positions it is not clear if the “Vilnija” mentioned in source actually is the same companionship “Vilnija” which Mr. Kazimieras Garšva leads. Because simple googling yields dozen of words “Vilnija” . I informed that such partial mentioning and use of one doubtful source to label organization lead by person is not enough., agreeably by WP:living I removed doubtful and controversial information , but particular contributor restored it , provided “motives” by him on talk is clear violation of WP:living, which states “Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. What this particular contributor demonstrated is conjectural interpretation. Question about ratability of source in this context was raised and by different contributors , (as well as ) but was once again restored by this particular contributor. WP:Living policy stats that “Without reliable third-party sources, a biography will violate No original research and Verifiability, and could lead to libel claims.” Rejecting doubtful source about "extremist" other provided sources on this particular article is not third-party sources. These sources exclusively Polish, note that Mr. Kazimieras Garšva have interests and investigates committed crimes by Poles, as well as Polish support for soviet regime during national awakening. So these Polish sources should be used with care, especially then particular contributor do not hesitate to mislead labeling these sources such as providing information that source is “Lithuanian embassy site“, while in reality it is some sort of tourist site. Please note that in current article still there are badly described sources, which even do not mentioned who is author etc. But problems with this issue is taking place and in different article Vilnija (please note with what inspiration article was created ) And yet again particular contributor Piotrus failed to stick to the policy. He motivates that “For starters, WP:LIVING concenrs itself with people, not organziations.” (speech not corrected), while WP:Living clearly states: “These principles also apply to biographical material about living persons in other articles.”. In this article (Vilnija) we already have the same doubtful statements about “extremist”. But this article goes even further. Mr. Garšva works here described as “quasi-academic” (once again WP:OR; WP:NPOV; WP:Living violation) (please note person has Ph.D) and even stated that “the quasi-academic works of its leader, Kazimieras Garšva, have been very negatively received by Polish government, media , and on occasion criticized by the Lithuanian government as well” while provided source do not concur provided text about Lithuanian government actions at all. Seeing such mislead such statements were corrected , , there was asked that sources and text should be checked . But every thing, including and article clarification and added facts, was removed by particular contributor Piotrus.. So particular contributor do not provide any third party sources, but also ignores and Misplaced Pages policies. Could anybody urgently intervene in this matter?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by M.K (talk • contribs) 04:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Sahaja Yoga Template:Blpwatch-links

Sahaja Yoga (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Bothi (talk · contribs) is adding libelous commentary, first to the talk page, then to the article. A Ramachandran 03:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

William Moseley (actor) Template:Blpwatch-links

• Gir29456 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) -This user has consistently added uncited and unverifiable personal information to William Moseley (actor). They have not responded to messages placed either on their usertalk page or the article talk. It seems to me that a final warning (You will be blocked if you continue this behavior) is called for but need, obviously, administrator input and approval for such a remedy. //Eluchil404 07:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Frank Rosenblatt

It is unclear why the Frank Rosenblatt page links to the biographies of living persons page, as Rosenblatt is not a living person and hasn't been one for some time.

Dmargulis 16:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Kate Middleton Template:Blpwatch-links

Kate Middleton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I recently added in some information from PEOPLE magazine about Kate Middleton to the article. According to the rules on this site, it was reliable information worth mentioning. I read the article and linked to the website where it can be found. However, there has been some disagreement on that. I have tried to discuss the situation with the other party on the discussion page, stating that right now the only information about Kate Middleton is in magazines and media coverage. I also stated, if that is not allowed to be in the article then there really is no point for there to be an article on Kate Middleton as there are no other sources of information about her but the media and magazines. The other party still has insists on deleting the information from PEOPLE magazine stating their magazine sources are more accurate. I guess my question is, what is the best way to resolve this? What is the best thing to do? If any of the information is incorrect to post on the article, then I would happy to delete it. RosePlantagenet 21:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• PEOPLE is a magazine that is acknowledged worldwide. What is their source? If it's a tabloid newspaper or similar magazine they can be shown to be inaccurate. Otherwise, can't both sources be used? - Mgm| 09:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was my point, nothing wrong with both as long as they accurate. I do not know what sources they are using, the editor stated several times they had read numerous reiable sources, however, when I suggested they add them into the article the editor never did. As of right now, two third parties have stated the information can stay in, so that part of the dispute seems to be over. RosePlantagenet 13:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Larry Darby Template:Blpwatch-links==

The Larry Darby article is currently the subject of a minor edit war. The subject of the article has been repeatadly blanking the page claiming libel but not naming any particular statements as libelous. I attempted to deleted the unsourced statements but Mr. Darby apears to want the entier thing removed. I have decided to stop editing and mark the current version (an offer to represent anyone who believes they have been slandered in lawsuits against "Misplaced Pages") as autobiographic.

--Selket 00:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking from outside at the article, a good deal of it is poorly sourced BLP--just read it. Possibly a NPOV article could be written. DGG 03:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

He appears to be editing it himself now and actually keeping some of the challenges. He did, incedently change the word holocaust to holohoax and then back again. --Selket 05:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Selkat has again caused Misplaced Pages to post poorly sourced, atrociously written, content designed to disparage the subject. After an exchange of e-mail with general counsel for Misplaced Pages it was agreed to not re-post the libelous content and leave only the factual statement "Larry Darby was the runner-up candidate for Alabama Attorney-General in the 2006 Democratic Primary. Darby garnered 43% of the vote, carrying 33 of 67 Alabama counties. " For a few days Misplaced Pages abided by the settlement agreement. Then Selkat comes along and undoes the agreement. Selkat even accused me of being unethical! Obviously Selkat has violated Misplaced Pages policy and has some personal vendetta against the subject.

Michael Prue Template:Blpwatch-links

Michael Prue (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - An anon user, known to be the same person as the Cheri DiNovo violator above, has repeatedly edited both Michael Prue and Robert Hunter to assert that Prue's byelection campaign in 2001 orchestrated a smear campaign against Hunter. The controversy in question did take place, and does need to be discussed in a neutral fashion in both articles, but no verifiable media source has ever found that Prue or his political party were the orchestrators of it. Prue's article has been sprotected; at present, Hunter's has not. Editor continues, however, to respond to any reversions with the same tactic as at DiNovo, alleging that any objection to their material is a partisan attempt by "NDP attack queers" to hide the truth, rather than a straight and neutral application of Misplaced Pages's BLP and verifiability policies. As at DiNovo, IP numbers vary but always resolve to APNIC. Temporary blocks have been applied, but because the user is on a dynamic IP blocks don't necessarily resolve the issue for any length of time. Bearcat 01:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Update: Hunter was sprotected on January 24. Bearcat 05:18, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Gordon Ramsay Template:Blpwatch-links

Gordon Ramsay (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - It appears from the page on Celebrity Chef Gordon Ramsay that he has died today, January 23rd. However there is no account in the article as of how and when this should have happened, and a google search did not turn up anything about him being dead. Does anybody know if this is true or not? Rudbeck 20:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

There must have been a confusion with the death of David Dempsey, a top-chef of Gordon Ramsay BBC News. JoJan 20:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Charles Csuri Template:Blpwatch-links

Charles Csuri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - This stub was created recently and there has been debate on whether detailed information about his relatives should be included. A recent diff indicates that there might be two or more of Csrui's relatives adding or modifying this personal information. I would say that this content is inappropriate for an encyclopedic entry. - cgilbert(talk|contribs) 18:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Jimmy Swaggart Template:Blpwatch-links

Jimmy Swaggart (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Please see Talk:Jimmy_Swaggart#Cleanup.3F_NPOV.3F_How_about_WP:BLP.21 for explanation. CyberAnth 19:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Abdullah II of Jordan Template:Blpwatch-links

Abdullah II of Jordan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) The text "Mathematically, His mother's pregnancy was considerably less than nine months at the time of his birth, which might confirm the claim that he is an illegitimate son to King Hussein" has been repeatedly replaced on the page. I assert that it's both original research (as indicated by the "might confirm") and a WP:BLP violation unless the assertion of illegitimacy can be supported by references. Other editors disagree with me. Additional opinions and advice would be welcome! --ElKevbo 22:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Dare Obasanjo Template:Blpwatch-links

Dare Obasanjo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)Should TechCrunch blame in the vandalization of wikipedia be reverted into the article ?

Michael Savage (commentator)‎ Template:Blpwatch-links

• EnglishEfternamn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - User continually makes unsourced allegations that Savage is a fascist. Several warnings have been given to the user both on the article talk page, and the user talk page, but he continues to insert this potetnially slanderous material. No sources have been given to substaniate the claim, and the only link provided says nothing of the sort.

Diffs on the article

ect

Most recent warning on article talk page:

Relevant warning on user talk:

--RWR8189 04:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with RWR8189's assessment. EnglishEfternamn continues to be disruptive by inserting unsourced allegations, most specifically with regards to Savage's defense of Marines accused of crimes. He takes a section of text meant to describe Savage's position and adds a final sentence such as "Critics see this as proof that Savage is fascist", adds a fact-tag and moves the entire paragraph to the "Criticism" section, making a description of Savage's believe seem like a criticism. Regarding WP:BLP, Jimbo has already weighed in saying that placing a fact-tag on unsourced info is not acceptable, the unsourced info has to be swiftly deleted. This has been explained to EnglishEfternamn many times, yet he ignores it and continues to be disruptive.--WilliamThweatt 05:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Good day, I would like to take this time to talk in my own defense. The cited content in question carries proper references. It can be hard to find these references at times because the layout of the website is designed in such a manner that makes it constantly changing. Therefore, involuntary redirections have taken place in some instances. I apologise for this and will work to make sure these citations are DIRECT. The citations are correct, nonetheless as long as the server on the website in question does not redirect.

I don't know the degree of revelance this holds, but I must state that to assess the credibility of these users, one must consider their past conduct. RWR8189 has been following about every page I edit and giving blanket reversions without reason, and accusing my edits of being vandalism, which I have warned him/her about.

WilliamThweatt on the other hand has been a bigger hinderance to my wish to edit articles. As soon as I begin trying to contribute to the Michael Savage page, this user made false complaints to administrators, one of which sent be threatening e-mails, and I received a few threatening e-mails from WilliamThweatt himself, how he found out what my e-mail is, I don't know, but I was willing to overlook this at the time. He has now resorted to personal attacks once again, and I feel as if my right to contribute to the pages has been subject to strong, un-dying intimidation. I wish to peacefully co-exist with these users and seek a resolve.(EnglishEfternamn 18:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

I will not respond to the above accusations as this is not the correct forum to do so, however this is the source that the user inserts in the article to allege support of fascism. It seems to be a fan site of Savage and is not a reliable source. Regardless, this fan site does not accuse him of fascism, and implication that it does would be original research This uncited implication is potentially slanderous and cannot be tolerated.--RWR8189 18:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, are you being directed properly? I'm looking right at the references now...(EnglishEfternamn 19:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

The word "fascist" does not appear on the cited page. Implying that the content of the page on this unreliable source proves that Savage is somehow a fascist is original research and not acceptable.--RWR8189 19:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

To both users: How about this? I propose a mutual truce. Both of you apologise and state you were wrong for making these un-warrented complaints, and I'll take my edits elsewhere, at least until I can perfect the citations, which are in fact gennuine. Deal?(EnglishEfternamn 19:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

I most certainly will not apologize for attempting to enforce such an important Misplaced Pages policy in WP:BLP. Thanks.--RWR8189 19:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

You've done no such thing. A violation of the rules must take place beforehand for such a situation to occur. Thanks.(EnglishEfternamn 20:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

And once again, are you viewing the right page, or the redirection page?(EnglishEfternamn 20:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC))

I'll refer you to this section of WP:BLP and what Jimmy Wales has said:

"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."

He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:

"Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia."

--RWR8189 21:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC) I think you need to apply this concept to your own editing style, to compell you to be more honest. Real resources on a real individual have been used, you have refused to listen to my explanation as to why the link does not always show up, I'm working on that. I have also offered a truce, a peaceful co-existence, and you have refused that as well.(EnglishEfternamn 01:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC))

EnglishEfternamn, I and other editors have gone to great lengths to explain this to you. The allegations of fascism you are inserting are not sourced on the page you are directing the reader to. Until you actually have the proper citation for your allegations, do not insert them, as it would be in violation of WP:BLP. In regards to your edits to the Hamdania paragraph, we have repeatedly explained to you why this can't be included as it is OR. Please think long and hard about your actions. Its good that you are passionate about editing this encyclopedia, but there are rules that you must follow, including WP:BLP, WP:OR, and WP:CIVIL. (To anyone interested, I and WilliamThweat already had a fight with him over this same material back in december.)--Mbc362 04:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe this is still going on. A number of editors from all sides of the political spectrum have been very patient with this user and have tried to explain to him why he is so very clearly in the wrong. They shouldn't have to put up with this any longer. Gamaliel 05:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I should also note that various users have sent me threats. This is a violation of a number of rules, and the users here going out of the way to intimidate me are being supported by crooked admins. Gamaliel, if these threats persist, I will have no choice but to report administrator abuse.(EnglishEfternamn 17:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC))

Please provide a link to these alleged threats and I will investigate them myself. Gamaliel 17:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

And for the 29th time, the references are gennuine, but it can be hard to be directed properly. Try clicking to the link several times, it could be your browser is not up to date. Again, I should mention that earlier in this section, I was willing to take my editing ambitions elsewhere on the grounds that William Thweatt and RWR apologise for unwarrented accusations. We all have much to contribute here and I feel a peaceful resolve is in need here. My offer still stands, and I hope we can stay on good terms.( EnglishEfternamn _contribs 19:37, 27 January 2007 (UTC))

• EnglishEfternamn has once again inserted the disputed content which violates WP:BLP. It can be seen here.--RWR8189 21:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, have you checked the citations, because I am reading them right now, at this very moment.--- EnglishEfternamn _contribs 23:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

You have cited Savage saying a couple random stupid and offensive things. That's fine. What's wrong with the section is that you have strung them together to push a claim that he advocates fascism and then attributed that claim to unnamed and unsourced (and probably nonexistent) "critics". Gamaliel 23:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What about the fact that such critics in question are indeed both sourced and existent?---- EnglishEfternamn _contribs 23:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case then please source them and end this problem. Do not once again reinsert the same unreliable source and claim it says something that it doesn't.--RWR8189 23:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no footnote or other source for this claim that I can see: "For statements such as this, critics state that Michael Savage takes a militaristic approach to solving problems in American society." Gamaliel 23:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know what to say as I am looking at the refs right now...I'll have to try to get the link right again, I guess.--- EnglishEfternamn _contribs 23:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Neil Clark (journalist)‎ Template:Blpwatch-links

Citylightsgirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has complained on the administrator's noticeboard about the editing of the British journalist's article. The user posting here is involved in this dispute, but has done so in order to speed up the resolution of this issue. Philip Cross 20:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Steven Kagen

Steven Kagen went to Appleton West HS but graduated from Appleton East

Mike Huckabee Template:Blpwatch-links

• Mike Huckabee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Repeated insertion of a paragraph criticizing Mike Huckabee (a former governor of an American state with possible Presidential ambitions) for not ordering a new investigation of a criminal case. Includes no sources for any claims except a single quotation (and that source may be inadequate), and editorial statement like, "The West Memphis Three ordeal has become internationally known as a debacle of the Arkansas justice system." A.J.A. 21:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

List of male performers in gay porn films Template:Blpwatch-links

A disaster waiting to happen. Hoaxes, kids adding people on there, etc. All unverified. Patstuart 21:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ruth Kelly Template:Blpwatch-links

• Ruth Kelly (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - On the Talk page to article Ruth Kelly User:Dave left the following comment about Ruth Kelly: there's plenty of evidence she's a ... (deleted as recommended) ...-cat.. I recommended him to reconsider (aka delete) his comment as it is a derogatory, insulting statement that, even if viewed as an users personal opinion, violates WP:TPG and especially WP:BLP. As User:Dave has no intent to retract his comment, I’m seeking advice about whether the statement in question really violates our policies and must be deleted or not. -- Túrelio 16:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, insulting people violates WP:BLP. I've deleted talk and left a message on the talk page. Tyrenius 19:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Túrelio 19:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply

I think there are two issues here.

1. I wasn't aware that it was against policy to do that, and for breaking policy I apologise.
2. I don't think that it should be against policy to express an opinion about someone on an article talk page, especially when it is clear that it is an individual user's opinion. How does one go about getting a debate on this policy? Dave 19:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Har Gobind Khorana

72.64.122.196 is vandalizing Har Gobind Khorana page with unsourced claims and even changing the name in the narrative. I think this person wants to somehow make him into a Sikh, even though his own Nobel biography does not mention it. I have reversed this vandalism but I suspect he will be at again soon.DaveBorman 18:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Free Republic Template:Blpwatch-links

Prior to mid-2001, Free Republic was not registered as a non-profit corporation. Under the law, it was a sole proprietorship. Therefore any libelous statements about the period prior to mid-2001 are libelous statements about Free Republic's owner and founder: a living person named Jim Robinson.

Jim Robinson has successfully sued the City of Fresno and won an out-of-court settlement of $60,000 (and cost the city $100,000 or more in legal fees) for a press release describing Free Republic as a "hate group." This proves that they are inclined to litigate. Litigious people must be handled with care.

The Free Republic article here at Misplaced Pages is being "owned" by a pair of left-wing partisans from a rival website called Democratic Underground. I'm convinced that they don't care whether Misplaced Pages gets sued. Their only concern is to insert or link, in the Free Republic article, the most derogatory information on the Internet that they can find.

Some time ago, they found a very derogatory article from 1999 (in the pre-2001 period I described) that was purportedly written by TJ Walker. The article cannot be found on TJ Walker's website, although an inaccessible link bearing a title that is similar to the title of the article can be found. This was self-published anyway, and could not be used under WP:BLP guidelines even if it could be found.

It was, however, republished by a partisan left-wing website called AmericanPolitics.com. This website carefully couched its republication in weasel words such as "TJ Walker claims ..." Clearly this would also fail to qualify under WP:BLP guidelines. Nevertheless, it was inserted in the Misplaced Pages article about Free Republic.

The purported "TJ Walker article" claims that death threats against Bill and Hillary Clinton had been posted at Free Republic and allowed to remain there for several months. This is a lie. Threats of violence have always been removed immediately from Free Republic. Abruptly, and without explanation, AmericanPolitics.com pulled the article and blanked the page a few weeks ago. They did this because it was libelous, and they didn't want to get sued like the City of Fresno got sued.

The partisan Wikipedians from Democratic Underground, undaunted, scoured the Internet and found an archived copy, and it is now linked at the Free Republic article with the "death threat" accusation, in the lead of the article. Anyone who attempts to remove it is immediately targeted with verbal abuse and accusations of sockpuppetry.

Please do something about this before Misplaced Pages gets sued, the way the City of Fresno got sued. Thank you. Dino 14:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Free Republic was not a sole proprietrship as Dino claims. It was a LLC. From L.A. Times vs. Free Republic "Unable to present any evidence of transformativeness, Defendants are forced to falsely portray “he site a not for profit enterprise.” Defendants’ Motion 6:20-21, 7:5 (relying on the Declaration of Howard K. Szabo). In fact, the Free Republic website is a for-profit limited liability company in the business of “Internet discussion and marketing.” Wayland Decl., §§ 9-10, Exhs. H & I (fictitious business name statement for Free Republic). Free Republic is not -- and never has been -- a non-profit entity." LA Times v Free Republic

Also see : "Thanks to section 230 of the Federal Communications Decency Act (CDA), which became law in 1996, Misplaced Pages is most likely safe from legal liability for libel, regardless of how long an inaccurate article stays on the site. That's because it is a service provider as opposed to a publisher such as Salon.com or CNN.com." Is Wiki safe from Libel Liability- Fairness & Accuracy For All 19:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Note : That Admin User:Jossi who is heavily involved with BLP, LIVING, and re-writing RS V to ATT is of the opinion that the source is fine, even as he accepts as fact Dino's unproven claim that the article was 'pulled' for being libelous! Jossi wrote : "Let me understand this. An article was written in the past by a person named TJ Walker, right? That article was later removed by the author from his website, on the basis that it was libelous? Is there any official retraction by TJ Walker to that effect? If that is the case, you can cite both the article and the retraction. If there is no retraction, citing the article would appropriate as per WP:V, even if it is from a cached version or an Internet archive". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 27 January 2007 (UTC) link Why is Dino even persuing this, when Jossi, who is the long time mediator on the Free Republic article, said it was OK? - Fairness & Accuracy For All

Note : Dino writes above : Re: "The purported "TJ Walker article"... Abruptly, and without explanation, American Politics.com pulled the article and blanked the page a few weeks ago. They did this because it was libelous, and they didn't want to get sued like the City of Fresno got sued."

Dino claimed on Jan. 15, 2007, that he contacted TJ Walker personally and that Walker told him that he never wrote the article in question! "I contacted TJ Walker and asked him whether he authored the article. He said, "Of course not." He contacted AmericanPolitics.com and asked them to remove the article from their website. They complied immediately" here Troubling - Very Troubling. (TJ Walker and APJ have been asked to confirm or deny Dino's very public claims that noted author TJ Walker NRO plagiarized the article attributed him - or had it ghost written - or whatever it is that Dino claims) Fairness & Accuracy For All 21:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of any question of immunity from liability, Misplaced Pages has strict policies against the posting of libelous information. One admin who is involved in rewriting those policies does not a consensus make. Those policies have been continuously disregarded with regard to this article. Dino 22:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Er.... uh... sorry to break the bad news to you Dino, but you're suffering from a total misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages and its policies. The first words in WP:V say "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." That's why, for instance, articles are allowed on Wiki using claims by Fringers who argue that Saddam did orchestrate, fund and direct the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Cause these nutty claims were published somewhere notable - this making them WP V. The fact that I can cite the US Gov and the words of Bush himself saying Saddam was not involved in 9/11, does not mean that I can get the claims saying he was deleted from Wiki. It behooves you to read some WP, Dino. Seriously. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 22:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein falls under "Significant Public Figures" as described in WP:BLP. Therefore, an article related to him can contain notable accusations. Jim Robinson is not such a public figure.

The accusations made against Saddam Hussein are notable all by themselves. Although most people don't accuse Saddam Hussein of directing 9/11, the number of people who do is a lot more the number of people who accuse Jim Robinson of publishing death threats.

The accusation that Saddam orchestrated 9/11 is (or should be) described as a minority opinion. Even if that justified including the reference, you'd have to say "a small minority of people including TJ Walker believe that Free Republic posted death threats".

Also, if there is significant doubt that TJ Walker actually wrote the article, then it isn't a reliable source even for TJ Walker's opinions. We don't need to *prove*, using an official statement from Walker, that Walker didn't write the article in order to reject it as a source.

I think you're trying to distort WP:BLP. Unproven accusations (even implicit ones) of posting death threats are exactly the thing the policy was meant to prevent. Ken Arromdee 07:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

No one is accusing Jim Robinson of making death threats. There are multiple RS V sources documenting (not alleging) death threats posted on Free Republic, as there are other political forums. A new one Dino's 'claims' that TJ Walker's admitted to him that TJ plagarised his own 1999 article entitiled 'Is FreeRepublic.com really Deaththreat.com' (or had it ghost written - or whatever it is that Dino claims - he won't exactly say - except that Dino says TJ 'denied' writing it to him) (then the story changed) are not credible, and his smears against this notable published author CBS News are reprehensible. They will be addressed. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 10:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether the accusation is "making death threats" or "publishing death threats" is irrelevant. And whether TJ actually published the article is only partly relevant. Even if he really published the article, it isn't a notable accusation unless it's been published in a lot of places. And even if it was as notable as the accusations against Saddam Hussein, you'd have to say "a few people accuse Free Republic of posting death threats", just like you must do with Saddam. You can't just write the article as if the posting of death threats was a fact--any more than you could write an article that Saddam being responsible for 9/11 was a fact. Ken Arromdee 17:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

If there's no WP:RS, remove -simple. AmericanPolitics.com wasn't an RS in first place. <<-armon->> 12:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Nick Ayers

While I thought that the text was legit due to the source (Atlanta Journal-Constitution), it turns out that the referenced articel doesn't exist! I've commented out everything but the 1st sentence for now, but would appreciate some help on it. Also note, I only found out because of a blog picking up on it. 68.39.174.238 18:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I nominated it for deletion. Or suggested it anyway. He doesn't seem to be that important yet, even if one reporter at the Journal-Constitution is a fan. :-) Steve Dufour 21:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I've readded the information you deleted - it's well sourced (and the source is not the Journal Constitution). I also object to your prod so you'll have to take it to AfD. I'm not trying to be contentious but I disagree with you on these issues. --ElKevbo 23:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm letting the article alone. As I said on the talk page he is a borderline case for notability. I would think that his arrest for DUI wouldn't be proper to mention under WP policy, but I am not an expert on that. Steve Dufour 05:01, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Mohammed Al Amoudi and black billionaires

User:Yom repeatedly and persistently cites a blog] in articles Mohammed Al Amoudi and black billionaires to make the controverisial claim that Al Amoudi(a dark skinned Arab) is the richest black person in the world contradicting a reliable source which claim Oprah Winfrey is], and also contradicting a reliable source that classifies Al Amoudi as the world’s 8th richest Arab!]. I see no evidence that Al Amoudi self-identifies as black and he is actually of predominantly Middle Eastern origin. His father is Yemeni and though his mother is Ethiopian, many studies claim that Ethiopians have substantial caucasoid admixture from the Near East]. (User:Yom is notorious for using original research to dismiss such genetic studies in an apparent effort to label everyone black, including Europeans! Talk:Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe#Yom is violating Misplaced Pages policy ).

As a mixed race person, I find it incredibley offensive and presumptuous of certain editors to simply brand mixed race public figures with racial labels they do not neccecarily accept. I also think it’s incredibley inappropriate to state that someone who is less than half black in ancestry is black because this is a throwback to the racist one drop rule of the segrated South and is inconsistent with how millions of mixed race people self-identify]. All of this puts the statement in violation of wikipidea living person policy which states: Unsourced or poorly sourced controversial (negative, positive, or just highly questionable) material about living persons should be removed immediately from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, and user pages. These principles also apply to biographical material about living persons in other articles. The responsibility for justifying controversial claims in Misplaced Pages, of all kinds, but especially for living people's bios, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim.]. User:Yom ignores such warnings claiming Nazret.com is a reliable source, however he is citing from the Ethio-blog section and WP:RS#Self-published sources as secondary sources clearly prohibits the use of blogs saying Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website, or author of the book. Blogs are further condemed by WP:RS#Editorial oversight which states that Self published sources such as personal web pages, personally published print runs and blogs have not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking and so have lower levels of reliability than published news media (e.g. The Economist) and other sources with editorial oversight, which is less reliable itself than professional or peer reviewed journal (e.g. Nature). If blogs are not considered acceptable sources in regular articles concerning noncontroversial topics then how in the world can they be considered acceptable sources for discussing topics as controverisial as race in articles as sensitive as those dealing with living persons, where stanadards are supposed to be much higher? Vexperiential

Part of the problem is the word "black" itself. No human is literally black in color; the word "black" is just a label put on certain people with darker skin color shades. In the United States Mr. Amoudi would be considered "black" although he would not be in many other countries. Many African Americans would not be considered "black" in other parts of the world. I think Mr. Amoudi should be mentioned on a "Black Billionaires" page, but with some kind of disclaimer explaining his ancestry. Steve Dufour 20:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)p.s. I just checked out the Black billionaires article. It was quite interesting and a great example of the kind of information WP can provide. p.p.s. Tiger Woods is "black", that is American culture would put the label "black" on him, even if he is not African American.

Oh I agree that anyone with any known degree of sub-Saharan ancestry should be mentioned in the article but I object to someone who is not predominantly black being described as black without a reliable source giving that opinion. And I'm not sure that he would be considered black in America. Many members of the Saudi Royal family look blacker than he is but they're not regarded as black in America. Generally mixed race people are only considered black in America to avoid calling them white, but if there's another ethnic group they fall into such as Arab, Hispanic, or Asian, they are often described by those terms. Vexperiential

We seem to be agreeing. Mention him in the article, along with Tiger Woods, but don't say they are black---just that some people have said they are. Steve Dufour 05:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is the source they're using to quote people describing Al Amoudi as black is a blog. As I showed above, wikipedia does not consider blogs to be reliable sources, and when making statements of a controversial nature in a living person biography, wikipedia requires the sourcing be excellent. Technically he's not black. I bet the vast majority of his DNA would come from the middle east which makes him Arab. There are black people in the article who are almost billionaires, so there can be billionaires in the article who are almost black, but I don't think we can quote anyone calling them black unless it's a reliable source which we don't have. Vexperiential

It's not WP's job to give the final answer on these kind of questions. I think the article would be incomplete without mentioning him and saying that some people do count him as black. Steve Dufour 06:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the article does have a chart showing he's the richest billionaire with any known sub-Saharan ancestry, while Oprah's the only billionaire of predominantly sub-Saharan ancestry. But what concerns me is that some editors have gone further and quote Nazret.com's Ethioblog describing him as a black billionaire. I prefer to let readers decide for themselves if a billionaire who is only half Ethiopian (and Ethiopians are only about half black) is a black billionaire, rather than quote a source as unreliable as a blog making the incredibley controversial claim that a prominent Arab billionaire is a black. Vexperiential

Again we seem to be in agreement. The article should mention him, but not say for sure that he is "black". Steve Dufour 15:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help in the article. We need more objective outsiders like you to keep an eye on it as so many people try to use to promote political agendas. Did you notice how user:Halaqah tried to change the opening sentence from this article refers to actual or incipient black or part-black billionaires to just this article refers to actual or incipient black billionaires in a POV pushing attempt to brand everyone mentioned in the article as just black even though people like Tiger Woods have publicly stated that it bothers them to be described as black. Editors like that are the reason I hop you and others continue to keep an eye on that article. Vexperiential

Stop mischaracterizing my actions Vexperiential. I never said he was a black billionaire, nor did the article ever say that he was. It simply stated that Nazret.com (see the talk page of the article and of the individual's article for my comment on Vexperiential's charactrization of the page as a blog that anyone can post articles to) considered him as such. It never defined him as a black billionaire outright. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 02:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Notability question

I have been doing research on a person for non-WP purposes, and a colleague has pointed out to me that he might be notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article. To summarize the commonly available information:

• He is a member of British/Irish nobility and a descendant of William the Conqueror
• He is mentioned by name in the existing WP article about his father, specifically with reference to his nobility
• He is a senior corporate executive in a company that is developing an international reputation in its area of specialty (which is admittedly quite narrow)
• He is the inspiration for a song that is on one of the all-time top-selling British albums
• He was recently interviewed and photographed for an article in a major magazine with international circulation.
  • As a side point to this, the magazine is a "men's magazine" and the link to this article is NSFW for many of our readers, so a link to the article would probably not be appropriate.

Before I invest the time to write up this article, I'd appreciate some feedback on whether more experienced editors would feel this person is notable. Feel free to reply to my talk page, and I will also check back here. Risker 11:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

He sounds like he is notable enough by the standards that usually prevail here. Steve Dufour 15:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)"

Well for me the key question is can every fact in your article be REFERENCED by a reliable source (preferabley an on-line source so that others can fact check you). If the person is notable enough to have mentioned in reliable on-line sources I would say he is notable. Otherwise you have an article with no references that can be easily checked and seeing as it's a living person article where standards are so much higher, that's potentially problematic. Vexperiential

Allison Munn File I keep going to Allison Munn, to find someone keeps saying that she is engaged, well... she is not!So who ever is putting this,IMDB.com is very trustworthy, and is claiming cleared that "she single"!Teddey 19:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Jarosław Kaczyński Template:Blpwatch-links

Recently in the article on current prime minister of Poland some users have started using references that seem dubious to claim he is gay. It appears few if any of reliable media has repeated such views. See this discussion.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Zalmay Khalilzad

Someone is amusing themselves by indicating that Ambassador Khalilzad is Jewish instead of Muslim. While, as a Jew, I would be very pleased to welcome to the tribe a person with the caliber of Ambassador Khalilzad's outstanding accomplishments, his other biographers seem pretty clear that he professes the Muslim faith. Unfortunately, these kinds of edits targeting a living person reflect poorly on Misplaced Pages when they remain unaddressed. I hate to see such a great project be attacked by weakminded folks who think they are somehow insulting either Jews or Muslims, or anyone else by such antics68.163.244.46 01:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Article appeared to be okay per above on my check. Removed uncited details about subject's personal life. CyberAnth 22:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Brian McLaren Template:Blpwatch-links

FYI - an anonymous user keeps spamming the Brian McLaren article with a link to a blog with inaccurate and libellous information regarding the living person. I have tried to reason with the anon in discussions to no avail, and even recommended the reading of WP:NOT explaining that articles on living persons are not to be used for grandstanding and as a repository of links to critical articles.

I can't spend my time on editing wars, so if someone is willing to take this on and deal with it I would appreciate it. --Virgil Vaduva 14:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Made post to incidents to have anon IP banned for 3RR violation. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Anon_IP_keeps_spamming_controversial_links_into_Brain_Mclaren_and_has_violated_3RR. CyberAnth 06:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Cult#Misrepresentation of Rick Ross website Template:Blpwatch-links

• {{Talk:Cult|Talk:Cult#Misrepresentation of Rick Ross website}} - An editor has used a defamation word to describe cult exit counselor Rick Ross . The definitions of this defamation word are here. The editor was recommended to delete the defamation as a slander-like statement. The editor refused and repeated the defamation, apparently claiming a truth defense based on this reference. The problem is that Mr. Ross was not convicted of the actions that might or might not marginally justify the defamation word. Even if the editor is metaphorically justified in describing Mr. Ross this way, as a public figure under libel/slander law, there is an issue of WP:NPOV, since Mr. Ross was alleged to have committed a crime but was acquitted. (I don't know who's correct, but I feel it's my duty to report my concern of a possible slander/libel legal exposure to Wikimedia Foundation.) // Milo 03:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Audrey Seiler Template:Blpwatch-links Would someone mind checking this very confused page out?

Audrey Seiler was recently tagged as a hoax, was missed by the rampant {{blp}} tagging spree, and, to me, just sounds wrong. Would someone else read through this and let me know if this is "just me"? 68.39.174.238 20:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the substantial unreferenced information and information containing insufficient source per WP:BLP. I added fact templates to the remaining text, where needed. The article is about a hoax. The article is not a hoax. -- Jreferee 21:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Just adding support to the above actions here. CyberAnth 10:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Edith González Template:Blpwatch-links

The source for the paragraph called Controversy comes from the Spanish article Bebé de Edith González, fruto de inseminación artificial. That article translates as:

It is now being said (by no credited reliable source) that her baby was conceived by articial insemination and that each week the rumor is growing stronger that the baby belongs to a former presidential candidate who is not named in the article.

This is rumor built upon innuendo and should not be in the bio of a living person. While her pregnancy is mentioned in her IMDb article, there is no reference to this there. Morenooso 06:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the entire "Controversies" section which was entirely unsourced. Nothing of such an uncited nature should be in a BLP. CyberAnth 06:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Tariq Ramadan Template:Blpwatch-links

Hi. I don't if this is the right place or not, but this article is attracting a lot of ip vandalism and edits like this. Please check the page history. Is it time for semi-protection? <<-armon->> 12:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd try WP:RFPP first. MER-C 12:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Page looks quite good from a WP:BLP perspective. CyberAnth 22:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Jacqui Abbott Template:Blpwatch-links

Why does this page have a biography of another apparently unrelated musician tacked on? http://en.wikipedia.org/Jacqui_Abbott If there's a reason I'm missing I apologise for wasting your time! -- 195.112.33.187 18:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I added a mergeto template to the article. The Jacqui Abbott article has been a stub for exactly one year today. -- Jreferee 20:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Jenna Bush, Barbara Pierce Bush, Al Gore III

There's a long-term tit-for-tat war going on between editors of the articles Jenna Bush, Barbara Pierce Bush, and Al Gore III. The cycle goes something like this:

1. Editor "Dem" (not real username) adds detailed info about Bush twins drug/alcohol arrests to their respective articles.
2. Editor "Rep" complains, but can't get consensus to remove the material. In retaliation, they add info about Al Gore III's drug/alcohol arrests to the Al Gore III article (which is basically just a stub).
3. Editor "Dem" complains, but can't get consensus to remove the material. Stalemate.
4. Editor "Admin" removes material from all the articles citing WP:BLP.
5. Repeat.

I'm giving up on this one. If anyone else wants to give it a shot, be my guest. Kaldari 00:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Delete all three articles? :-) Steve Dufour 19:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Paul Simonon Template:Blpwatch-links

Can someone fix this and get factual evidence with some sources.

He married Pearl Harbour in 1566. The couple divorced in 1666. He is currently married to Shilpa Shetty CBB racism representative, Tricia Ronane, with whom he has two sons, Louis and Claude. Louis is right now in a relationship with another mam. Their godfather is Justin Timberlake and their godmother is Jade Goody. It is reported that he has left his wife for Serena Williams.

I am not an admin but I removed all potentially controversial uncited info and personal details per WP:BLP, noting in edit history that that sort of information simply MUST be cited before re-adding. CyberAnth 22:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Banjee Template:Blpwatch-links

I deleted the images in Banjee as being potentially libelous to the persons in the images since the images appear to be of living people, the persons in the image are associated with being thuggish men who have sex with men, and the article does not include Misplaced Pages reliable sources to support such an association. The images quickly were restored by another editor and the article now is in need of a BLP administrator to review the situation. -- Jreferee 19:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• The images were uploaded under the GFDL by the reported author of the images. Click on the images to see. If there is a good faith belief that the photo's subject did not authenticate them for such release, this can be taken to Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion. But given that the subject's face is largely hidden, I doubt there is considerable grounds here. CyberAnth 07:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
  • GFDL does not authorize potentially libelous uses of images. Although the person's eyes are hidden in the photo, I believe that his identity still can be known, especially by those who are familiar with him. Since the article does not include Misplaced Pages reliable sources to support the use made of the living person images in the article, the images should be removed from the article if his identity can be known even with his eyes covered. Further comment/action still is needed to resolve this implementation of Misplaced Pages WP:BLP policy -- Jreferee 18:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • So, what do we do next? CyberAnth 10:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

John Grisham Template:Blpwatch-links

• John Grisham (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - A fellow Wikipedian brought my attention to this website and was concerned that another user was trying to introduce potentially libellous material. I reviewed the article and the history and it turns out that one user kept reintroducing material paraphrased from one of the cited references, which is related to a current lawsuit involving John Grisham; a Google search suggests that this is a current event. I also noted that the user who kept introducing these changes, ChasAlmy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), appears to be related to the plaintiff in the case vs. Grisham (according to the referenced magazine article, the husband of the plaintiff is named Charles). This user kept on reverting other people's edits to a version that is to his/her liking. Just to be sure, I changed the title to something more neutral, and also reverted the section to a shorter version (i.e. with shorter content). Other than this, I'm not sure what else I would need to do. Any help and suggestions would be appreciated. --- Tito Pao 22:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Note. A few minutes after I made this entry, ChasAlmy reverted the article to longer contents, although the section title I created was not changed. --- Tito Pao 22:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I am not so sure the lawsuit info should be included in a WP BLP, since it is still ongoing and the "The Hook" is questionable as a source. Probably the reason why big news outlets have not reported on the matter is that the matter is not resolved. I think WP should avoid commenting on the matter until that time. Better safe than sorry, so I am going to remove it until the lawsuit is subject of *multiple* reports in reliable sources per WP:N and WP:V. CyberAnth 07:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria requires only that the article not neglect major facts and details. The lawsuit does not seem to be a major fact or a major detail in Grisham's life, which further supports your deletion actions to help bring this matter under control. -- Jreferee 16:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Billy Burke (evangelist) Template:Blpwatch-links

Please look at the article Billy Burke {see "Billy Burke (evangalist)", I don't know how to wikilink it directly}. I thought it violated the wp:blp in many respects, and quickly pared away the criticism section-I didn't have time or knowledge how to be more precision oriented to potentially retain certain parts of it without making a very pro-POV slant behind. But instead of it being improved, an editor restored the whole thing and since the editor thinks I'm an "agent" of some kind, is unlikely to want to work well with me to improve it. I suspect he will revert me again. I also don't know enough to make the judgement call on one source he wants to keep from a publication called "Creative Loafing" which the editor describes as an "alternative" newspaper in Fl. My sense was that for controversial attacks against the subject of the article that a higher standard would be required for sources, but I would value input from an editor with more experience with kind of question. Professor marginalia 02:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I deleted some POV material in the article and added fact templates. The facts in the article are slanted against Mr. Burke, but the article itself probably could be balanced with additional facts. -- Jreferee 03:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

James Dobson Template:Blpwatch-links

• James Dobson (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Yet another article under the guise of biography that is little more than a slagfest of controversies and critcisms, with the subject's own views described from primarily his critics' POVs. I have made some NPOV changes in the "Social views" section of article and, given the POV perspective of most of that section, deleted the entire very long and article-overwhelming "controversies" section per WP:Undue weight. I have described my concerns further at Talk:James_Dobson#Slagfest_or_Biography.3F // CyberAnth 06:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• I reviewed the situation and it does not seem to require outside intervention related to the policy of Biographies of living people, which is a basis for posting on this noticeboard. -- Jreferee 16:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Jonathan Corrigan Wells

Jonathan Corrigan Wells is a leading advocate of intelligent design. From this someone has said that he "rejects" evolution itself, which he does not seem to. I removed the sentence but it was put right back. Steve Dufour 19:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not find the word "reject" in the text when I visited it. I did find a problematic section and removed it to talk for re-writing, see Talk:Jonathan_Corrigan_Wells#Problematic_content. CyberAnth 06:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I rather over reacted to the situation I'm afraid. The article is showing some improvement. Steve Dufour 08:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Make that "was" showing some improvement. :-) Steve Dufour 08:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The Wells article continues to include false and petty attacks on him from people who despise him for his criticism of evolutionary biology textbooks. The sources given for the slanderous attacks include a left-wing political blog, and a web site that gives Misplaced Pages as its only source! Roger 18:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

There has been an organized PR campaign there to insert/inflate material favorable to Wells while remove/downplay material that is not. Two of the four parties involved are members of Wells's church, one is a former member, and the other is a conservative Intellignet Design blogger. Two of the four are commenting here and are presenting a very one sided description of the situation there. Any assistance in putting this conflict of interest PR campaign to rest from earnest, unbiased editors is appreciated. 151.151.21.99 19:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any issue with Raul, except that he expressed agreement with FeloniousMonk inserting false statements into the article.

Some of the Wells issues are:

claiming that Wells rejects the idea that HIV causes AIDS, when all he ever did was to sign a petition asking for a reappraisal of the evidence for and against.

claiming that the Unification Church paid for Wells's UCB PhD, when sources say the opposite.

claiming that the Unification Church opposes evolution, when Rev. Moon said, "I don't deny the process of evolution in development".

blaming Wells for another book from his publisher.

The above anonymous editor is apparently calling me a "conservative Intellignet Design blogger". I do have a blog, but I am not an advocate of intelligent design. Roger 03:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You've completely misrepresented the issues there. And now you've been blocked for doing it, which speaks for itself. 151.151.73.165 17:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was blocked for 24 hours for expressing objections to the unsupported personal attacks in the Wells biography. Yes, that speaks volumes. You can see the above issues being debated on the Talk:Jonathan Corrigan Wells page. If you have an alternate view, then post it. Roger 05:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Anderson Cooper Template:Blpwatch-links

• Anderson Cooper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is in a state of near constant revert warring over speculation about his sexuality. Please can some people take a look and see who's arguments are a correct interpretation of WP:BLP?-Localzuk 23:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• • The more conservative ones, per WP:BLP. I have removed the material in question and posted my rationale at Talk:Anderson_Cooper#.22This_.5Bsection.5D_is_about_Anderson_Cooper.27s_identity.2C_not_his_sex_life.22.2C_and_the_Washington_Blade. CyberAnth 01:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Tom Cruise Template:Blpwatch-links

The biographical article about Tom Cruise contains a story originally printed in the tabloid 'The Sun' which claims that David Miscavige, current head of Church of Scientology, told Tom Cruise that he would be worshipped as a Christ-like figure. Jeff Quiros, President of the Church of Scientology of San Francisco, denies the story. So does Greg Churilov of the Scientology Parishioners' League. Since the story is about a living person, potentially libellous and poorly sourced, I edited it to delete it. It has been reverted each time. Please remove it.

I removed the material per WP:RS. I can only put the page on my watchlist and help revert. Most of that entire "biography" reads like tabloid journalism, by the way. CyberAnth 05:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

David Miscavige

Thanks, CyberAnth. I also had the same thing (revert) happen when I edited the David Miscavige bio to remove the Sun story. Please delete it from the Miscavige bio also. Here is a link to the President of the Church of Scientology of San Francisco's denial of the whole stupid story, in case you are challenged for removing it;

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/...a/16591805.htm

69.12.131.206 06:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan

Done. CyberAnth 08:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Tom Cruise

Miscellaneous

There is a paragraph that states, " In February 2006 an article in Life & Style magazine reported that Cruise and Holmes were splitting up, but keeping up a public pretense until the spring...."

Please remove this paragraph. It is manifestly untrue, as Cruise and Holmes are now married, and spring is long gone. Moreover the sources on it are anonymous, so it's worth less than a double handful of flea dirt, IMO.

69.12.131.206 08:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan

Done. Let us hope it stays. CyberAnth 08:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Poor Katie Holmes! :-( --BenBurch 05:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Gary Null Template:Blpwatch-links

Subject is a writer and broadcaster on alternative medicine. We need some advice on whether the fact that he is mentioned on the website Quackwatch can be included. And more generally on how the subject's critical views on mainstream medicine can be represented in an NPOV way.Itsmejudith 18:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Still need help! Itsmejudith 00:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Neil Gaiman

It is continually being added to this profile that Gaiman is the son of a famous scientologist called David Gaiman, and that Neil Gaiman may have been schooled as a scientologist. This is SHEER speculation, any web references just point back at each other in some form of mobius loop, with no official or concrete proof. There is no official sources even identifying Neil Gaiman as son of a man called David, let alone the SAME David (a common name surely!). In closing I will add that Neil Gaiman has a very large web presence, with a blog which he writes to daily, he talks about EVERYTHING and ANYTHING, at NO point does either scientology come up, or the name David Gaiman. Yet Gaiman will often talk about his jewish/church of England roots, the fact that he himself obviously never talks about scientology, coupled with the absolute absence of andy official proof means these references should not be added. It may be true, yes certainly, but until there is proof, it must be removed. I welcome any discussion on this. --Foxydavid 18:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do remove the unsourced information from Neil Gaiman's bio. It is not essential to understanding him, and may not be true.

S. M. Sullivan 07:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan

Ismail Ayob Template:Blpwatch-links

Ismail Ayob was Nelson Mandela's lawyer but he was sued by Mandela in 2005. This high profile lawsuit was widely reported by multiple reputable South Africa media oulets, for example: . However, User:Zayd, has repeatedly removed references to the lawsuit from the article, and in 2006 did it on the Nelson Mandela article as well (it has since been re-added to the Mandela article). Zayd's contributions (over the last year) seem to have mostly been about removing mention of the lawsuit from Misplaced Pages. Given the editing of someone who might be potentially close to the subject of the article (apparently Ayob has a son called Zayd, although that proves nothing), I think that this could get quite tricky. Should references to the lawsuit be left out? Park3r 22:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree this could get tricky. Hagiographical articles often become an embarassment to the author or subject when other editors add the "other side" of the story. If the article no longer even mentions that Ismail Ayob was Mandela's lawyer, then I would argue that it no longer shows that Ayob is notable enough for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. How about {{prod}}, nn-bio? Zaian 16:16, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article did mention the lawsuit and Mandela's relationship with Ayob from the start, and wasn't a hagiography (in fact it had a rather hostile tone) , but then mention of the lawsuit was removed . It effectively became a hagiography, and all attempts to re-add information about the lawsuit and Mandela's relationship with Ayob have been removed. Ayob was a prominent struggle lawyer and still has a high political profile (if we get rid of his article, we may as well throw George Bizos out as well). The subject is noteworthy and the article can be kept. As for the lawsuit, the details should be kept in, but the possible conflict of interest issues need to be dealt with.Park3r 17:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it did start as a hagiography - most of the early edits were anonymous by User:82.111.242.71, with the first mention of Mandela and the artwork dispute coming later but being deleted by User:82.111.242.219 a few minutes before the user Zayd first edited. User:82.111.242.219 may not have been Zayd, but the same IP address made some unpleasant innuendo-filled edits on the George Bizos article starting on the same day. Zaian 21:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I stand corrected. Regardless, I have re-added the section on the lawsuit to the article (and added a BBC source as well), and expanded on Ayob's other anti-apartheid activities (he represented Winnie Mandela, for example), and I have tried to add some balance to the sections both in Ismail Ayob, and Nelson Mandela. It should be noted that Zayd Ayob is now quoted in the Nelson Mandela article. Park3r 21:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems some pretty wild allegations are being made and it seems to be getting personal which is unfortunate especially coming from Zaian with his or her tremendous accolades and achievements, wish we were all like him or her — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zayd (talk • contribs)

Zayd, it's nothing personal. Thanks for editing this article and the Nelson Mandela article constructively with references. I think the text you added needs to be summarised as it is currently too long, and as you are apparently an interested party, your contribution (even if well referenced) is unlikely to be entirely neutral. It's a start though - please continue to contribute positively by allowing collaborative editing to take its course. By sticking to verifiable facts, and avoiding editorial commentary and opinion, it should be possible to end up with an acceptable neutrally-presented article. Zaian 21:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Kara Borden Template:Blpwatch-links

There has been an ongoing conflict with Tommypowell and others over the inclusion of exact birthdates for underaged victims of crimes. My interpretation of WP:BLP is that these people are not public figures nor are they particularly notable outside of the fact that they were involved in a sensational crime, and I have been following my interpretation of policy by replacing their exact birthdays with simply their birth years. Tommypowell disagrees and has reverted my changes at Kara Borden, Shawn Hornbeck, and Shasta Groene. Any help and input would be greatly appreciated. AniMate 23:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It is near impossible to find a source for the date of birth for this article. Through much searching, only one possible link has been found which isn't even accessible to the general public due to it requiring a subscription to view. The lack of any other sources would imply to me that the birthdate is not readily available and thsu should not be included. A third party's opinion on this would be helpful. Cowman109 00:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

• ) Those birthdates were put up in 2005 by other users and have been up for 2 years without complaint. I have asked you many times for language in the BLP which distinguishes between birthdates for people of different ages or different occupations (actors/musicians only as you have claimed). You have been unable to respond. Birthdates, where available, are routinely included on Misplaced Pages pages-there is NO exception in the BLP for alleged crime victims.
• By the way, the link is accesible to the general public without subscription-http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&q=lancaster+new+era%22+kara+borden%22+ludwig+2+06+91&btnG=Search and again-the birthdate has been up for 2 years without complaint, posted by User Detour in 1995; not by me. Tommypowell 14:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You're correct that there's no exception in the BLP for birthdates for alleged crime victims.

There's an exception in the BLP for birthdates for *everyone* (except major public figures). WP:BLP#Privacy of birthdays

Misplaced Pages includes exact birthdates for some famous people, but including this information for most living people should be handled with caution. While many well-known living persons' exact birthdays are widely known and available to the public, the same is not always true for marginally notable people or non-public figures. With identity theft on the rise, it has become increasingly common for people to consider their exact date of birth to be private information. When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date.

Ken Arromdee 19:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• I think when you have been the focus of massive international media coverage including TV appearaces and hundreds of thousands of google hits you qualify as a "well-known living person" Where your birthdate is globally available in a 10 second google search the BLP concern about "identity theft" is not present. Tommypowell 14:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that WP should have higher standards than the "massive international media". What is the value of reporting the birthdays of child victims of sex crimes? Steve Dufour 17:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I checked out these articles. In my opinion the last two, at least, should be deleted. What value does it have to give personal details about children who have been victims of sex crimes? Steve Dufour 19:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Misplaced Pages is encyclopedic, not 'all-encompassing'. We do not need the details of each of the hornbeck sodomy charges, it's enough to list the proper number of charges filed. TO go too far in the 'gory details' of a BLP is generally frowned upon, and so should the inclusion of information which hurts no one to omit, and which probably serves more to facilitate harrassment than anything else, shouldn't be there. We wouldn't post the victim's address, and we shouldn't post their age. ThuranX 20:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Should there be an article on an individual who is notable only for being the victim of a sex crime while a child? I have no problem with an article on the perpetrator. Steve Dufour 22:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, ThuranX. I see one of the articles is gone already. Steve Dufour 22:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Richard Bridgeman, 7th Earl of Bradford Template:Blpwatch-links

• Richard Bridgeman, 7th Earl of Bradford (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Ghost rider1000 (talk · contribs) adds permanently two weblinks and which use an aggressiv and slanderous tone and seem to lead a smear campaign against the earl. Both links contradict Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. He was noticed on his talkpage, in a revert's summary and on the article's talkpage. ~~ Phoe _talk 20:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC) ~~

Daniel Brandt Template:Blpwatch-links

Isotope23 claims at Talk:Daniel Brandt that "I'm about 2 reverts away from protecting this article from editing because of the constant flipping back and forth between having this section and not having it" refering to the section I delected that has been restored (see the deleted paragraphs at the bottom of this diff). Anyone have an opinion on how the BLP policy applies to the material I deleted? WAS 4.250 22:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph concluding that "Since November 19, 2005, the Misplaced Pages Watch site has included a page" is original research and should be deleted from the Daniel Brandt article. The site http://www.wikipedia-watch.org generally may not be qualify as a reliable source. Even if wikipedia-watch.org generally were a reliable source for other articles, it is not independent of the Daniel Brandt subject itself and thus any material in the Daniel Brandt article that cites wikipedia-watch.org as its source should be deleted from the Daniel Brandt article. As for BLP policy, Brandt probably is a public figure, so Wp:blp#Public_figures would apply. -- Jreferee 16:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Leonard Weinglass article is potentially libellous

Article reads like it was written by an extremist offshoot branch of the John Birch Society. It's not just biased, but pure character assasination and right-wing extremist propaganda. Of all the NPOV violations I've seen on wikipedia, this is BY FAR the WORST, and given the lack of sourcing, exhibits a high risk of containing libellous information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.252.47.251 (talk • contribs).

The article probably should be nominated for deletion. He is not that notable unless there is something more that could be said about him. Steve Dufour 19:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

He is quite notable,and a good deal more can be said. Since he is well-known to be proud of defending leftists, even those involved with criminal activity (and as it is part of American constitutional law that lawyer defend criminal cases) , saying so does not violate BLP. Since the crimes of the accused, some of whom have been convinced, are not relevant, the refs to the WP articles on them is sufficient, and I have removed the descriptions of the crimes. DGG 21:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

If things have been written about him then bring that information into the article. I am on your side. However just doing a job, and defending criminals is a lawyer's job, does not make a person notable on WP. Steve Dufour 21:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It depends somewhat on the notability of the criminals. But the refs will bring that out.DGG 22:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Leonard Weinglass, one of the country's most prominent defense lawyers since the Vietnam era, is easily notable enough for an article. As of this writing, the current version of the article contains no improper material. Newyorkbrad 00:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It could use some more references however. Steve Dufour 02:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Peter Roskam Template:Blpwatch-links

POV warriors are battling out with no winners but Roskam is the loser. Starting to read like a hit piece or campaign bio instead of an encyclopedia article. potentially false light libel issues. Please keep an eye on it. --Tbeatty 04:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd welcome as many people who understand WP:BLP as possible to come and comment on the changes to this article that are said to be based on BLP. Thanks. --BenBurch 16:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Since you asked, I've been studying WP:BLP (among other Misplaced Pages policies) for about a month in my spare time. Generally speaking a Wiki biography about a living person must be written conservatively. It must strictly adhere to WP:NPOV, particularly WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. A side-by-side comparison between the Peter Roskam article, and the article about any living Democratic politician you'd care to name, proves that the former is a hatchet job. Much the same can be said about the rest of the Republican congressional delegation from Illinois and, I suspect, the rest of the Republicans in Congress. Misplaced Pages must not be put into a position of appearing to side with the critics of a living person. Any negative information must have ironclad RS V sourcing or it must be removed without hesitation. Thanks for asking. Dino 19:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anything can be done if people supporting or opposing a candidate put in true, cited information. (The pupose of the information being to sway voters for or against the subject of the article, not to add to our intellectual understanding of that person's life or importance in history.) I think that readers are smart enough to make up their own minds anyway. Steve Dufour 20:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The information in dispute is all true and all cited in RS-V sources. And *my* goal is not to sway anybody against the congressman. He is not up for re-election for one thing. It is to make a good article. A good article ought to be the verifiable truth whether or not that makes the person out to be a saint or a sinner or (where most of us lie) somewhere in the middle. I will not allow all negative information to be removed in the name of some tortured interpretation of WP:BLP any more than I would allow the good he has done (like returning lost dog tags to vietnam vets and/or their survivors) to be removed. --BenBurch 20:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the article at hand, but there is still the "undue weight" aspect to consider, whether or not the information is verifiable. For hypothetical example, if a subject is caught peeing on the side of the road at the age of five, and there happens to be newspaper articles about it to cite, is it really important enough of an incident to rate a paragraph (or even mention at all)? - Crockspot 21:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that. In this article there is "undue mass" as well as "undue weight". That is the total mass of information is way too much for a person who is not that important. Steve Dufour 21:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. I would usually think that an article would have whatever was available in it since Misplaced Pages Is Not Paper. Is there some standard? What would you think the correct size should be? --BenBurch 21:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

There is probably a policy somewhere. I would think that an ideal article could be read in one sitting and give some basic understanding of the subject and why he, she, or it is important. If every bit of information that is out there is included no one will make it to the end of the article. Steve Dufour 21:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Crockspot, you are exactly the sort of person we need on this article because you are fair and civil. Please head over there? Thanks. --BenBurch 21:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that there is at least one editor working that article who would disagree with your opinion of me vehemently, and since I have made the committment to avoid that editor if at all possible, I'll probably take a pass on your invitation. But I will try to take a look at it. - Crockspot 21:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Not me! I 'buried the axe' regarding any conflict we may have had a long time ago. Sorry if you haven't. I'd welcome your participation. - Fairness & Accuracy For All 10:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not a matter of burying the axe for me. It's the way that you (continue to) conduct yourself that I wish no part of. - Crockspot 15:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh the irony! Someone who supports and defends the Swift Boaters chastising me for my conduct! That's rich! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 15:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yet again, you prove my point for me. - Crockspot 19:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

And you, mine! - Fairness & Accuracy For All 20:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Your comments would be appreciated in any case. --BenBurch 22:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Congressmen are up for re-election every two years. Otherwise I agree with what you say.  :-) Steve Dufour 20:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, you have me there, but the campaigning is a year off at this point. --BenBurch 20:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Congressmen such as Roskam are already fundraising and picking out key campaign staff. Serving in the House means constantly preparing for the next election. Dino 23:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Really Dino? Fundraising is highly regulated by the FEC. Unless he has a federally registered 08 campaign, fundraising for 08 would be illegal. You're claiming he has a FEC 08 campaign in place, Dino? Another one of your 'claims', eh Dino? - Fairness & Accuracy For All 10:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think he was making a general comment that in a democracy politicians are always "up for re-election." Steve Dufour 17:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It looks like the article is being edited by people with political agendas. This shows how powerful WP has become if they think the best way they can influence the outcome of an election is to edit a WP article. Barack Obama's article is about the same. I don't think there is anything that can be done about it, unless you want to get in on one side or the other that is. Cheers. Steve Dufour 19:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Samuel_Hook Template:Blpwatch-links

I'm new to this, but this is my brother-in-law. Yes, he has some links with Abramoff, but I find it unneccessary to see that Sam has its own Wiki page.

Is it possible to nuke it in its entiretiy?

Legitimate question: Would that be because it paints a less than favourable picture of Sam? Refsworldlee(eds) 20:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I made a small change for the sake of fairness. I wonder how long it will take for it to be deleted. Steve Dufour 06:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Norah Jones

So sorry, I'm not sure where to write this, or how to fix it.

It says "norah jones is a crazy indian lady who makes lots of music that puts people to sleep... shes a fuckin pimp!!" on Norah Jones' page.

I couldn't find it when I tried to edit it out.

• It was removed by another editor within less than 1 minute after it had been put in, which explains why you couldn't find it any more. --Metropolitan90 01:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mel Gibson DUI Incident

There is a very interesting debate taking place on the Mel Gibson DUI incident AFD discussion page regarding breakout articles on controversial incidents in the lives of living people. I think editors involved with the biography project may be interested in weighing in on this. Cleo123 02:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

John Travolta

My 'Family' section cleanup attempt has been reverted by some unknown person. I added the year he and Kelly Preston were married and the names of their kids. My source was the wiki bio on Kelly Preston. I also deleted the parts about Jett having untreated autism because the sources were Operation Clambake,( an anti-Scientology message board), and a couple of gossip media. Not reliable sources. Some of the allegations were not sourced at all. All that I deleted were potential legal trouble for Wiki. Please consider blocking the editor who reverted to remove my changes, and protect this bio if you agree with my changes.

69.12.131.206 03:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan

• Just off the cuff, Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source, so unless there is a RS cited for marriage date and children's names in the Preston article, that info is not reliably sourced. Children's names are particularly sensitive, unless they are already notable themselves. (If there is an RS in the Preston article, it should be used directly in the Travolta article, not cite the Preston article.) - Crockspot 15:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I had previously raised concerns about the "Family" section of John Travolta which User:69.12.131.206 was trying to address, and I appreciate that. The best solution would be to find an independent, reliable source to support the marriage date and children's names. Generally there is no attempt to keep secret the names of children of celebrities on the level of Travolta, so I don't see a problem with identifying the children's names in this article. However, the allegation that one of Travolta's children has untreated autism has not been properly sourced and so I do see a problem under WP:BLP with continuing to include that in the article, as some editors apparently want to include it. --Metropolitan90 00:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It is Tilman who keeps reverting my attempts to correct the Travolta article and other articles too. He has an anti-Scientology website that he has linked to the bios of a few Scientologists. I consider that he is using Misplaced Pages articles to get more hits on his website. What to do? It is impossible for me to imagine good faith on his part.

S. M. Sullivan 07:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)S. M. Sullivan

Mark Ebner is an award winning investigative journalist. Just because he writes about Hollywood doesn't make his website "gossip". His article is credible; the "Kawasaki syndrome through carpet cleaning" that Travolta is telling isn't. I am therefore restoring it. --Tilman 07:50, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Eben Pagan Template:Blpwatch-links

• Eben Pagan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Negative information about this (non-notable, but let's ignore that for now) individual is sourced only to messageboard posts. Edit-warring is ongoing to keep said information in the article. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Christopher Michael Langan Template:Blpwatch-links

This article is being used to harass the bio subject. Some of the content in the article and history is potentially libellous. Please see the article talk page for complaints from the subject of the article. DrL 16:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Shawn Hornbeck Template:Blpwatch-links

• Shawn Hornbeck (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Do we really need to mention the specific and embarassing details of the crime comitted on this man in the lede? 'In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm"'// Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I took the word out and it was put right back with the justification that it was cited. I don't think there should be articles on child victims of sex crimes at all. Steve Dufour 18:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Bill Belichick Template:Blpwatch-links

• There is a plethora of potentially libelous material being perpetuated on Belichick's biography page, including criticisms that, although cited somewhat correctly, are not Wiki in format and are not verifiable. Also, they are borderline libelous. As an aside, look at every other NFL coach's wiki page and find a "Criticisms" section. Oh yeah, right. None to be found. WStewart07 05:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mae-Wan Ho Template:Blpwatch-links

• Needs a good clean up and verification. Editing on the article is not active, but the mess that is there needs sorting out.--Peta 09:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

BDORT Template:Blpwatch-links

• I have placed a request at WP:AE regarding the below discussion. -- Jreferee 17:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

BDORT (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Please take a thorough and careful look at this, as I believe it is clearly defamatory and anti BLP when inspected closely: and . I am representing Dr Yoshiaki Omura on wikipedia with his permission. There have already been malicious defamatory statments about him removed by an Admin. I believe the editor, Crum375, left as the sole editor of this entry is biased against Dr Omura/BDORT as I have outlined here . I requested the Arbitration that has just closed and which decided I am banned from editing the article. Be that as is, it has been confirmed and remedied that the version that was edit warred over for months, including by 'Crum375', against my repeated reversions of it and my support of the stub by the last Mediator in order to end the protracted edit war - contained BLP defamatory information. I know that the remaining BLP information I refer to in the article is presented in a not obvious way, but this subtlety does not lessen the BLP issues one bit, nor the lack of basic accuracy; protracted discussions by me about the points raised with this editor are fruitless. I am trying to prevent further real life damage (which has already happened and which the ArbCom has acknowledged privately to me due to privacy issues) and continuing BLP problems remaining. Thanks.Richardmalter 14:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Richardmalter has just been banned by ArbCom from the BDORT article, Talk page and related pages. The issues he refers to are described in detail in the Arb case (which he brought), and the case was decided against him, as he clearly has a conflict of interest and has edited the article tendentiously and disruptively for months, and was blocked for 3RR several times. As far as the specific issues, since the Arb case, we have modified the BDORT entry to focus on the actual diagnostic procedure and not its inventor. We have a well sourced article, with careful regard for WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP as well as due weight. I welcome a review of this article and comments, and would be happy to improve it while adhering to WP's rules. Thanks, Crum375 22:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Crum375, is there a WP policy about you tracking my every comment on WP or the like? I find it like stalking.

To others here, Please note the ArbCom as it does ruled on 'behaviour' as they saw it not content, which was not addressed. An admin unrelated to the ArbCom case deleted the defamotory material championed by Crum375 et at. I have three times set out the problem I refer to here above, and three times Crum375 has replied in a generalized way that has not addressed the actual problem whatsoever. There is a continued resistance to any cooperation without Admin intervention, andthis editor has also edit warred with the last Mediator. Please also note that this is due to the supra-WP bias of this editor as documented by me with diffs in the Arb case and confirmed in his view by the last Mediator. Crum375's bias was revealed here: "Be also aware . . potential WP readers . .will rely on BDORT . . with possible dire consequences" ]. And as CheNuevara (last Mediator) commented on this: "What you say . . . does express your opinion of the matter pretty clearly". There is much more to this than seems. Thanks.Richardmalter 01:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Richard, 'stalking' would be if I followed you around to different unrelated articles. AFAIK, following your posted comments and responding to them on an Admin's Talk page, or on a noticeboard, where you are addressing the same topic and the same article, is the proper and expected behavior of a good wikipedian.

ArbCom has reviewed everything you mention above - you presented it all during that case. They ruled that you edit tendentiously and have a conflict of interest, and unanimously banned you from the article, its Talk page, and all related pages. I suggest we focus on the actual issues. The BDORT article is available to all for review and comments. Again, I would be happy to have neutral editors review it and suggest improvements, if any. Thanks, Crum375 01:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you do not focus on issues raised. You respond in generalized ways that do not actually address points made. And to reiterate, you are the ONLY editor I have been involved with - amongst numerous Admins/Mediators etc who NEVER accepts any of my suggestions - and only accepts changes with outside 'pressure' or Admin ruling. You have also as a matter of documented fact been directly party to real world harm to a living person by your actions of defending and editwarring and reverting pro the defamatory version for many months against me, an Admin, and a mediator - all who are completely neutral, that the Admin SlimVirgin deleted straightaway as as soon as I pointed out the WP:OR defamatory statements in it, that you advocated for repeatedly. You were 'deaf' to all my requests in this regard. That means your record in terms of WP:BLP is extremely poor regardless of your intentions ... Outside help is therefore certainly needed because of this, and your very poor WP:BLP record, with this entry. I may have a conflict of interest technically, but this does not change any actual event, or fact noted here. Richardmalter 03:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Richard, the statements you make about me above, that "as a matter of documented fact been directly party to real world harm to a living person by your actions" can easily be seen as personal attack on me. If you have such documented proof, please present it. Otherwise, please focus on the issues at hand. As far as the more substantive points you make, you have presented all of them to ArbCom during the case you initiated, that was just closed. They reviewed all your points, and decided that your edits are tendentious and that you have a conflict of interest, and unanimously decided to ban you from BDORT and related pages. Since the case was closed, we have revised the article to focus on the procedure and not its inventor. It is well sourced and meets all of WP's requirements, including WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP as well as due weight. If any neutral editor would like to review this article and suggest improvements, s/he would be more than welcome. Thanks, Crum375 04:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest, as has Crum375, above, that anyone concerned with Richardmalter's assertions consult the record of ArbCom re Yoshiaki Omura, of whom Richard Malter is a proponent, as well as the entry itself. These, I would think, speak with startling clarity for themselves, as does the persistent disposition to personal attack, innuendo, and threat, of Yoshiaki Omura's advocates. GenghizRat 04:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

GhengizRat, the defamatory statements on Omura that you wrote and edited and tried to support with many references and arguments have been Admin deleted. Crum375, again you do not actually' address the actual' points raised. You defended a version tenaciously that you championed with many arguments over many months that contained the clear defamatory statements on Omura that clearly violated WP:BLP, that have been Admin deleted, at my request. That's the factual record.Richardmalter 03:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Quod erat demonstrandum. GenghizRat 05:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I think the article is improving (re WP:BLP). But there are still serious (BLP) issues remaining. The first is as follows. If WP is representing the work of a living person, then the representation of their work has to be accurate. I realize all the WP editors here are non-experts but basic journalist/encyclopedic standards need to be maintained - especially since Dr Omura is a living person. Dr Omura's devloped technique, the BDORT, is currently described and explained almost totally inaccurately throughout the article. I have gone through many other WP articles on science and other technical subjects and there seems to be no problem giving accurate information in WP, so I am insisting that this article describing the work of a living person also has the same basic level of accuracy in description of the BDORT. Please see for a correct description: especially the section: '3. Finding the right fingers for the Test' NB. "A correct match of fingers is able to give a reliable Bi-Digital O-Ring Test, if it satisfies all three conditions." - ie this is the so-callled 'three conditions for reproducibility'. Without this, the technique is NOT BDORT BY DEFINITION (because BDORT is said to be reproducible, repeatable). WPedians have to be reasonable reporters as well. Currently the article contains correct information but which is fragmented. If you ask why did the Patent Office initially refuse the application (which they did - as correctly noted in the article), it was because they said it was subjective. So Omura got the Affidavits (uploaded to WP and public docs available from the Patent Office for $25) to show that it was objective. Currently the 'threads' of the report are not linked narratively or accurately. But again, most of all, and please focus on this point, regardless of the poor 'narrative' currently, the actual description of the BDORT given is totally inaccurate. You will see also then if you read the correct description I point to above, the idea that the "forefinger" is used by the testee - as currently reported repeatedly in the article, is also completely inaccurate. Can we just get a basic accurate description please.Richardmalter 03:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Richard, this is clearly a non-BLP issue, and hence this is the wrong page and forum. But addressing your point about the BDORT technique nonetheless, I did use the language from Omura's patent abstract. Although it's not as detailed as the one you describe, I think it's sufficiently detailed for our readers. They can always follow the links to Omura's writings and get more detail if they wish, about the exact finger selection, decision criteria, etc. Crum375 03:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Mansoor Ijaz Template:Blpwatch-links

I'm not sure if this is the right place to report this but I think someone should take a look at this edit  YDAM TALK 17:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• There is really a problem here of hostile reverts and implied legal threats. Admin action requested - DGG 00:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• I added a proposed deletion template to the article. -- Jreferee 18:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Stephanie McIntosh Template:Blpwatch-links

Someone should read this while it is probably right also very offensive

• I removed the section that seemed improperly sourced, per WP:NOR and WP:BLP. Crum375 04:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• I removed a sentence for BLP violation and added one fact template. The article now seems to read OK as far as BLP issues go. -- Jreferee 17:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Neil Warnock Template:Blpwatch-links

Neil Warnock#Disputes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Regarding the "Disputes" section of the above article. Sub-sectioned "Players", "Managers", "Referees" and "Fans". Whilst it could be said to be entertaining, most of the information contained within these headings, and in some cases relating directly to other living persons who are themselves the subject of biographical Misplaced Pages articles, is typical 'I heard it somewhere', although qualified(?) with a range of pre-cursors such as (quote): "he is said to have commented", "involved claims that", "apparently", "is said to have", and "many Forest fans have accused him of". It remains spectacularly unsourced.

Quoting Jimmy Wales: "There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."

Quoting Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons policy: "Unsourced or poorly sourced controversial (negative, positive, or just highly questionable) material about living persons should be removed immediately from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, and user pages."

Removing any of this information 'aggressively' is not an option for me, as I have already tried to edit the page in a sensible manner, and got reverted immediately. A hard-core of editors appears to exist in watching this article.

If you are happy with the nature of the prose in the Neil Warnock article, then I apologise for wasting your time. Refsworldlee(eds) 01:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Georgie Thompson Template:Blpwatch-links

Georgie Thompson- User davesmith33 is repeatedly entering information which does not have a reliable source. // Bladeofgrass 20:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Phil Dowd‎ Template:Blpwatch-links

This is another soccer-related biography which says much under a section called "Criticisms", but is told in a prosaic, non-NPOV style, obviously based on hearsay, and citing no sources. IMO, It paints a dubious picture of the subject of the biography.

Again, if you disagree, please disregard. I have presented on the Talk page for this article. Refsworldlee(eds) 23:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Srebrenica massacre Template:Blpwatch-links

• Srebrenica massacre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - In the article (and on its talk page), editors Opbeith, Bosniak, Emir_Arven and potentially others are repeatedly reinserting allegations or innuendo that the head of the UN peace keeping force, Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie visited Serbian "rape camps" where he was delivered with Bosnian women and raped them. This is an absolutely absurd charge that is rooted in propaganda rather than reality; Mackenzie has very publicly questioned much of the reporting surrounding the Srebrenica Massacre and calling or suggesting that he's a rapist is a way to discredit him. To me, this looks like ad hominem at its worst and potentially libelous to boot. -- Mgunn 19:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, among its editors, the article has a number of Serbian revisionists and siege mentality Bosnians that have made rational discussion and rational editting extraordinarly difficult. It feels a little bit like an online version of the Yugoslav wars... make the other side look as bad as possible without getting banned by Misplaced Pages editors. -- Mgunn

Will Young

There have been several attempts to vandalise Will Young's biography with homophobic remarks. Luckily another member has reverted to the original material Gill P 22:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

George Voinovich Template:Blpwatch-links

A lot of unsourced and speculative claims in this article. Crockspot 05:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Christopher Michael Langan Template:Blpwatch-links

There are several people sitting on this article reverting to a contentious version relying on irresponsible sources (sourcing a contentious crackpot without credentials or credibility). I've removed that source, and so have several others during the last few weeks, but these edits have been are reverted. Looking at the recent edits, some of the editors seems to have a personal investment. One is so off the wall ("Felonious Monk") that he may even be the crackpot in question as he seems overly involved in the article and obsessed or preoccupied with the Langan fellow. I've heard about the feud these two have had for the last 10 years or so. Seems like wikipedia is being used in a personal vendetta. It would probably be best to err on the side of caution here and warn the editors to be more careful. Denn Blake

What we seem to have here is several editors working in tandem to blackwash an article. This isn't the first time I've seen something like this in a bio here. Denn

David Cash, Jr. Template:Blpwatch-links

This has been changed a few times to libel another person with a similar name. The claims about a positive photo ID and attending Berkeley are false. Can we fix this more permanently? 76.17.126.213 19:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Shane MacGowan

Full of technically potentially libellous comment. I ve commented in more detail on the comments talk page through the tag but not sure if anyone goes there. Thank you High Heels on Wet Pavement 00:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert Prechter

I've added documented material (from the Wall Street Journal, Fortune, etc.) to the article on Robert Prechter. Prechter's employee, User:Rgfolsom keeps on reverting the material. Please note that this article is currently involved in a lengthy request for arbitration involving both Rgfolsom and myself. Smallbones 14:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert Prechter Template:Blpwatch-links

Article is at issue in a current Arbitration case. User:Smallbones is posting non-factual and defamatory remarks about the subject, including ridicule and name calling ("voodoo," "looniness"). This is not in keeping with a biography written in a neutral, encyclopedic tone, is potentially libelous, and violates WP:BLP, a policy that the Arbitration committee has strongly reaffirmed in a recent ruling. Have twice removed the offending material in the past 30 minutes. Requesting administrator intervention. Thank you.--Rgfolsom 14:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Careful with your facts! That's 3 times you've reverted this article in about an hour. Smallbones 15:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Mark Oaten Template:Blpwatch-links

Mark Oaten (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been a battleground of sorts for an allegation of coprophilia only sourced to a satire mag. It appears a reliable source may have also picked up on it now, but I already got burned once on British sources and don't want to get burned again, so if a few people could review it so I'm not the only one watching it, that'd be great. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Scott Shields (Bear Search and Rescue) Template:Blpwatch-links

Scott Shields (Bear Search and Rescue) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Apparently the subject of this article, a Sept 11 Ground Zero volunteer, is under an investigtion about his finances and about claims he made in the Sept 11 aftermath. The article began as a criticism of the subject. I've made one stab at removing uncited defamatory material, but it is back into a one-sided, uncited mess. Anyone want to straighten this out? // Kla'quot 17:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

David Cash, Jr. Template:Blpwatch-links

This has been changed a few times to libel another person with a similar name. An admin has removed these changes once (Thanks FCYTravis), but the anonymous user has reinstated libelous claims. Can you prevent this sort of libel permanently? It is clear that the anonymous user is just doing this for sport and not out of a genuine belief in these unsourced claims.Bollobas 19:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Wretström Template:Blpwatch-links

This article is a violation of the Swedish personal data law since the killers name has not been published in Swedish journalistic media and I don't think it has been published in media outside Sweden. Therefore the article of the supposed killer has been deleted from Swedish Misplaced Pages (sv:Misplaced Pages:Sidor föreslagna för radering/Khaled Odeh). His name should therefore be deleted from all versions of this article that mention it. //StefanB sv 09:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If you know it's in violation of any Law, remove it immediately, don't post here! Ask Jimbo. Refsworldlee(eds) 12:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It isn't violating any laws. Only US jurisdiction applies on en.wikipedia.org -- not Swedish. To say otherwise means the extreme -- you consent to enforce Islamic law (as specified by Iran), etc. an all US wikipedia servers, and so forth. Quatloo 13:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

If the killer's name hasn't been published anywhere, isn't it a violation of BLP, not because it's illegal in Sweden, but simply because it contains unsourced negative statements? If you're going to state that someone is a killer, BLP requires a source. Ken Arromdee 18:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the Odeh sentence as it violated BLP. -- Jreferee 02:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Mike Honda Template:Blpwatch-links

Can someone please take a look at this article? One (or more?) Japanese anonymous editor keeps adding some obscure conspiracy theory and subtle racism, flatly contradicted by reputable English article. ThreesCompany 17:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Tom Coburn Template:Blpwatch-links

A small section of this article, "Sterilization controversy," is, in my POV unnecessary because it contains an unsubstantiated charge; a legal case was filed, but then dismissed with no further action. Several users have attempted to delete this section, but it keeps getting restored. We would appreciate your looking into this matter. Thank you. ProfessorPaul 00:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Carlos Latuff Template:Blpwatch-links

• Carlos Latuff (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Some editors keep insering unsourced comments his cartoons are "antilocution cartoons that demonize". It's obviously unsourced, but I don't know if it's controversial enough to risk a 3RR violation. Comments would be welcome. // Liftarn 11:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Barbara Schwarz Template:Blpwatch-links

• Barbara Schwarz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)A sizable amount of this biography is currently sourced to usenet postings. The artcile subject is mildly notable for having filed a possibly record number of FOIA requests related to Scientology, whcih are generally seen as groundless and obsessive. Beyond that info, which can be sourced to a minor news artcile, a group of editors, at least one of whom is involved in a rather nasty and abusive flame war with the article's subject, have been aggressively blocking attempts to removed the non WP:RS usenet sourcing, which seems to be included only to cast the article subject in a negative light by highlighting her personal troubles. The page has been locked by an admnin who himself is a public critic of Scientology outside of Misplaced Pages (as are the editors blocking removal and discussion of the non WP:RS usenet sources. The basics are on the Talk page for the artcile. BabyDweezil 23:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This is clearly an attack page. When it was nominated for deletion before a call was put out on Usenet to bring in votes for its retention, and still it just barely survived. Steve Dufour 06:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

AnnaSophia Robb

AnnaSophia Robb's page has been vandalized on the first paragraph. 71.255.141.106 02:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Michael Ratner Template:Blpwatch-links

Michael Ratner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) A new editor has a remarkable interest in the real estate dealings of the subject of this article's brother, and wants to source claims of some kind of questionable financial dealings to their research into government records. Jkelly 20:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Burt Reynolds

Please stop Lugnut215 (an account he recently blanked and started using the 2 ip addresses i provided) and his unregistered accounts from vandalizing the Burt reynolds page he used this ip address 207.74.123.226 to erase the complete Burt Reynolds references section today and he has used this one to libel the page 207.74.123.15 I have spent plenty of time repairing all his libel backed up by a huge amount of reliable data and references. To which he erased them all today. could you please make the page where you have to be registerd to edit, That way he cannot hide, by the way you can tell it is still him because when you check the 2 ip address' history he has edited some of his other work about Lansing Lugnut and so on. You can clearly see it in both of the histories. Plus on both of the ip address' i provided he has been repeatedly warned by (the staff) about his vandalisim and that (the staff) is going to block him from edits if he keeps repeating it, well he did it again so somehow i think the threats of blocking him are not enough. Thanks for any help in stopping his vandalism. ~~ Rogue_Gremlin~~7:40pm est Feb 15 2007

Steve Walsh (rugby)

The entire article is being used to paint Steve Walsh in a poor light. This article should be removed and/or locked.

Bardcom 10:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Mark Rathbun

This is not really an article but a missing person notice. Steve Dufour 12:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference Jimbo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Jimmy Wales. "WikiEN-l Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information", May 19, 2006

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