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: Armenian source has a bias toward Azeris, but not toward Armenians, same as Azeri sources are biased with regard to Armenians but not with regard to themselves. ] 21:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC) : Armenian source has a bias toward Azeris, but not toward Armenians, same as Azeri sources are biased with regard to Armenians but not with regard to themselves. ] 21:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Armenian reports on Basayev in Azerbaijan is unsubstantitaed by third party sources. We have Azeri sources, claiming that Bin Laden had hubs in and links to Armenia. If we include Basayev here based on Armenian reports we should include Bin Laden as well. But then what is the merit of such encyclopedic articles? Either we include both - Basayev, Zinevich (and why not Bin Laden) or none.

Revision as of 23:14, 16 February 2007

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Good articleFirst Nagorno-Karabakh War has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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Orbat

Archive
Archives

Archive 1 (9 March 2006 - 2 January 2007)

More information on the ORBAT of the military forces of each side at different stages of the war would be useful.Toddy1 10:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

In case people don't know what that is: Order of battle-- Ευπάτωρ 14:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article discussion

There is presently a discussion on turning this into a Featured Article. Join the discussion! --Petercorless 11:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


Soviet division

This issue was endlessly debated on Nagorno-Karabakh page, and the compromise version was agreed. Currently the article on Nagorno-Karabakh reads:

The predominantly Armenian region became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918. After the Soviet Union expanded into the South Caucasus, it established the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) within the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.

You know perfectly well that the Kavburo resolution said:

Proceeding from the necessity of national peace among Muslims and Armenians and of the economic ties between upper (mountainous) and lower Karabakh, of its permanent ties with Azerbaijan, mountainous Karabakh is to remain within AzSSR, receiving wide regional autonomy with the administrative center in Shusha, which is to be included in the autonomous region.

It does not use the wording that you included in the article. I think the article should observe NPOV rules. Grandmaster 19:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

As somone not party to those prior discussions, and as a neutral observer, I see no reason that the mention of the historical geographical and political divisions of the USSR are to be excised. I added back in the mention of the NKAO and Azerbaijan SSR. They are historical facts, and should not be subject to partisan modern revisionism. If there were historical objections to that, or modern objections, cite the objections. --Petercorless 23:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Did the Kavburo resolution actually misspell "peace"? --Petercorless 23:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Ha-ha. No, they got it right, I misspelled it. Grandmaster 05:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that current version creates an illusion as if Nagorno-Karabakh was included in Azerbaijan by the Soviets, however by the time Kavburo passed its resolution NK was already part of Azerbaijan. That's why Kavburo said that NK was to remain within Az.SSR. I think that this should be corrected. Please see more sources on Kavburo here: User:Grandmaster/Karabakh. Grandmaster 06:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Sergei Ivanov

Could you please explain how Sergei Ivanov who is mentioned in the NK template as a key person is linked to the war? Colchicum 21:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

and also Vladimir Putin??? This table needs extensive rewriting if this article is nominated for a featured article. Colchicum 21:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Asides from Gorbachev most of the Russian leaders have simply provided vocal support for a peaceful resolution to the conflict which is why I believe they were included. Figures including Karen Demerchyan of Armenia although slightly associated with the Nagorno Karabakh movement also seem not to belong there so I removed those who really did not play a significant role in the conflict .--MarshallBagramyan 21:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

MT-LBT in video still

The vehicle is the MT-LBT, the artillery tractor version of the MT-LB. --Petercorless 01:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Basayev and Zinevich

The list of commanders should include only those who were in charge of military operations, and not every minor military leader. Plus, we have no sources to support the claim that Basayev commanded anything at all in Karbakah war. We only know that he fought in Karabakh. He might as well be just a soldier. On the other hand, Russian general Zinevich was chief of stuff of Armenian forces, so he definitely belongs to the list, while Basayev does not. Basayev can be mentioned in the text, but should not be listed as a commander. Grandmaster 13:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What we need citation of is:
  1. Proof of presence in N-K during time of conflict, with dates and locations if possible.
  2. The size and composition of forces commanded, hopefully unit name or designation.
  3. Operations and events they were personally involved in.
If these three matters can be given sufficient source, and if the force Basayev commanded was battalion-sized, then it is probably notable in the infobox as a leader of an external faction fighting on behalf of the Azerbaijan military.
p.s. Grandmaster: Do you mean Chief of Staff? --Petercorless 13:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
:) yes, I meant just that. Grandmaster 13:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Is Zinevich notable for inclusion in the infobox? He definitely was a commander. Grandmaster 13:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Please check this: Grandmaster 13:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

So what exactly was his role in the war itself? If he was ROA deputy chief of staff, how far was he involved in the war's planning and logistics? Was he involved in bolstering Armenian defenses opposite Nakhichevan and Turkey? How often did he visit Karabakh? If we're to use this criteria then Karabakh defense committee leaders Serzh Sarkisyan and Robert Kocharyan were just, if not more involved, and even more notable, in the war effort than Zinevich. According to sources, he played an important role in forming the ROA's Army and defense force but what was his exact role in this war? I have absolutely no objection to adding Zinevich provided that I see what capacity he was serving in.

Basayev commanded a faction of Chechen troops, not ethnic Azeris. Most sources do not place the size of the force but it must have substantial enough to have risk traveling across borders and to come in aid in the of a defense of a town they did not even have the most remote affiliation to. The source listed on the page (Land Between Christianity and Islam) provides more details.--MarshallBagramyan 18:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I too would not object if Zinevich was listed a military commander, if there is citation of the forces commanded, and if this is significant. As far as Basayev, it behooves us to have citations of even a rough estimate of the size of forces he commanded in N-K, otherwise, we cannot state he was a "commander." --Petercorless 21:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'll add a section about Basayev's participation in the war. --Petercorless 21:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Bassayev is notable. Zinevich is not. Zinevich was not some foreigner who was in command of a foreign force aiding Armenians. He was part of the Armenian forces and was a naturalized Armenian. No comparison can be made.-- Ευπάτωρ 21:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
More to the point: was he a commander of forces? If he was, then we have more of a case for his name being listed as a commander. If he was not a commander of forces, then he is not listed. Similarly, we list generals, but not generally Secretaries of Defense or Defense Ministers. For an example, Barre Adan Shire Hiiraale of Somalia served as both Defense Minister as well as a Colonel and an active military commander in the army. Who can find information on Zinevich's role? --Petercorless 21:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The closest search on Google yields an Armenian forum speaking about his him whereas a search on Proquest finds only two articles that report his death without listing his contributions to Armenia asides from the role he played in creating the Armenian military from 1992, which is unclear if any of it had to do with the war.

The listed source in the article also writes that Basayev led not only Chechens but also sympathetic Islamists from the North Caucasus. The forces he commanded again remain unknown while most sources list that he led a mujahadden unit both in and out of Azerbaijan. Russian sources however comment that the size of his force was near battalion size . They were even given the right to take back tanks and other war booty back to Chechnya and comment that had it not been for the fighting Karabakh, he would not have gained the expertise to use in his fight against Russian forces in 1994-1996.

Apparently the name of the Afghan mujahadeen (they were confirmed to number up to 1,000) was called the Afghan Brigade and they may have been responsible for "terrorist acts" inside Armenia proper during the war (Unholy Wars, p. 151). --MarshallBagramyan 22:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You first source (Khachig) is Armenian and not third party, so it should be rejected. The second one does not provide information about the role of Basayev as a commander in Karabakh. Grandmaster 08:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Just because the source is from one side, or another, does not mean that it is to be rejected. Where would the history of World War II have gone if we rejected all the reports by German and Soviet and British and American and Japanese sources? Your argument is therefore facetious. While we do need to be careful about sources, we do not need to avoid them zealotously or chauvanistically, thank you. --Petercorless 08:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Please check the rules:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require stronger sources.

In my opinion, the above source does not qualify, as it is not third party and not published by a reputable publisher either. We should adhere to high standards in selection of sources if we want this article to be featured. Grandmaster 09:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Third party in that case mean, in that case, that we should not be relying on Basayev's own blog and accepting it verbatim. That would be his first-person account. Third party does not mean "avoid any site written by anyone of Armenian extraction." Your opinion is noted, thank you. --Petercorless 09:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, let me just mention that in my view third party source is the one that is not related to either of the sides of the conflict, since the article covers the conflict between the two countries. Thanks. Grandmaster 10:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Please see more detailed info about the career of Z in the Armenian army: Grandmaster 12:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
While your opinion has been expressed and noted before, again, it is not necessary to avoid all sources from anyone of an ethnicity or national affiliation involved in the conflict. According to your logic, we would not be able to cite the New York Times regarding any event having to do with the United States, or anyone of Irish descent as a source regarding conflict in Northern Ireland, or cite the BBC involving events in the UK. Avoid spurious logic, please. --Petercorless 17:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It is not the same thing. You cannot use an Al-kaida source to describe the US, you can only report the position of this organisation. In this case, Armenian sources have clear bias with regard to Azerbaijan, and vice versa. And with all due respect it is not my personal logic, I'm refering to the rules. I think the rules are pretty clear. Also, I would like to note that the source provided by MarshallBagramyan states that Basayev was in Karabakh only a few months, after which his deal with Azerbaijani authorities "went sour" and he left. Still he is listed as someone who made a significant contribution to military operations during the war. Grandmaster 19:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a very distinguished career GM, but how does he factor into this war? His biography notes that he served as high level staff officer for the NKR's Army only beginning in 1994, when the war had pretty much ended. Monte Melkonian led his fighters in Martuni and elsewhere from 1992-1993, Hemayag Haroyan, a career Soviet officer rendered his services in Karabakh, "Komandos" Ter-Tatevosyan was one of the most well known and one of the most respected officers by the lower file and rank troops and not only organized but personally led many battles including the capture of Shushi. I don't doubt Zinevich's contributions to forming the Armenian Army but it's irrelevant putting his name in the infobox if we don't see what he accomplished in the war.--MarshallBagramyan 17:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Zinevich can therefore be mentioned in the article, probably as one of possibly a group of people who helped found the NKR army. That seems like a fair citation of his involvement. If he's not a commander of field forces, then please leave him out of the infobox. Again, citation of his role as a commander would be needed. Yet I see no reason to make it seem like there's a consipiracy to not mention civil-military defense leadership. Again, if he is notable, note his role using NPOV voice. Seems straightforward to me. --Petercorless 17:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
With regard to Zinievich. According to Seyran Oganian, the Minister of Defence of Karabakh Armenians, Zinevich personally took part in all military operations:
Анатолий Владимирович был одним из наших учителей и руководителей, но прежде всего он был боевым товарищем и лично участвовал во всех боевых операциях.
Anatoly Vladimirovich was one of our teachers and leaders, but first of all he was a brother in arms and personally took part in all military operations.
More:
В июне 92-го по просьбе первого министра обороны Армении Вазгена Саркисяна он поехал в Карабах "...на три дня, посмотреть, как воюют карабахцы". И остался там на пять лет.
In June 1992 he went to Karabakh by the request of the first Minister of Defense of Armenia Vazgen Sarikissian “for three days, to see how Karabakhees fight”, and stayed there for 5 years.
"Да, это именно так, - сказал мне еще в 1994 г. Вазген Саркисян. - Даже в самое тяжелое время Зиневич не бросил Карабах. Мы обязаны ему очень многим. А знаешь, сколько армянских офицеров я посылал в Карабах? Никто из них больше трех дней там не остался..."
“Yes, it is indeed so”, told me Vazgen Sarkissian back in 1994. “Even during the hardest times Zinevich did not leave Karabakh. We owe him a lot. You know how many Armenian officers I sent to Karabakh? None of them stayed there for more than 3 days”.
So Zinevich was in NK in 1992-1997 and personally commanded military operations. Grandmaster 20:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not the same thing. You cannot use an Al-kaida source to describe the US, you can only report the position of this organisation. By your logic, we should thus disregard the above source since it has an "obvious bias" judging it from its origin. We can exclude the Armenian source on Basayev only to buttress it with three other non-Armenian sources. You can't use one source when it fails to support your views and then point to it when it does. If I was to introduce a source originating from the Gov. of Armenia alleging such and such claims against Azerbaijan, you would most probably dismiss it but its enough if if one source supports your claims, regardless of who published it.--MarshallBagramyan 20:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Armenian source has a bias toward Azeris, but not toward Armenians, same as Azeri sources are biased with regard to Armenians but not with regard to themselves. Grandmaster 21:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Armenian reports on Basayev in Azerbaijan is unsubstantitaed by third party sources. We have Azeri sources, claiming that Bin Laden had hubs in and links to Armenia. If we include Basayev here based on Armenian reports we should include Bin Laden as well. But then what is the merit of such encyclopedic articles? Either we include both - Basayev, Zinevich (and why not Bin Laden) or none.

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