Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:21, 27 June 2022

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Transgender article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Template:Vital article

This page is not a forum for general discussion about transgender people. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about transgender people at the Reference desk.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Sexology and sexuality Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies This article has had a peer review which is now archived. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Gender studies Top‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article has been marked as needing an infobox. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Misplaced Pages requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This article was nominated for merging with Transsexual on 2015-07-08. The result of the discussion was the articles were not merged.

This article was nominated for merging with Transsexual on 2018-01-19. The result of the discussion was the articles were not merged.

Section sizes Section size for Transgender (45 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 8,824 8,824 Terminology 3,015 24,849 Transgender 6,914 6,914 Transsexual 9,680 9,680 Other terms 4,466 4,466 Shift in use of terms 774 774 Sexual orientation 8,089 8,089 Related identities and practices 39 13,077 Non-binary identity 2,913 2,913 Transvestism and cross-dressing 7,781 7,781 Drag 2,344 2,344 History 8,543 8,543 Healthcare 642 26,292 Mental healthcare 18,052 18,052 Physical healthcare 3,366 3,366 Detransition 4,232 4,232 Legality 2,940 18,670 Europe 1,095 1,095 Canada 2,639 2,639 United States 7,621 7,621 India 4,375 4,375 Sociocultural relationships 70 13,551 LGBTQ community 2,399 2,399 Religion 59 59 Feminism 5,253 5,253 Discrimination and support 5,770 5,770 Population figures and prevalence 2,110 27,429 Asia 12,462 12,462 Europe 973 973 North America 8,699 8,699 Latin America 2,511 2,511 Oceania 674 674 Culture 12 15,070 Coming out 4,578 4,578 Visibility 8,597 8,597 Pride symbols 1,883 1,883 See also 405 405 References 17 30,053 Citations 41 41 Sources 16 29,995 Secondary scholarly sources 13,608 13,608 Reference works 3,422 3,422 News coverage 5,798 5,798 Other 7,151 7,151 Further reading 1,930 1,930 Total 196,782 196,782

the definition of sex and how it relates to the stated definition and use for transgender and transsexual

Sex is defined as which gametes an organism produces. In accordance with our stance, it has been established, even on the sex wikipedia page, that there are "no other universal distinctions between male and female"-- only differences in gametes. Sex is based on which gametes you produce, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, there is currently no way to transition from one sex to another. The current trans article states not only that it IS possible, but that transGENDER (transition of GENDER) is the same as this supposedly possible transition of sex, which undoes all the discussion about the difference between sex and gender that has been had over the last several decades. Plainly, you cannot transition from one sex to another- and this Misplaced Pages page should not be spreading misinformation saying that such a thing is possible. Trust me, if it were, I would be on it.

Moving on from this, the definition of transsexual is NOT somebody who literally transitions from one sex to another because 1. as we established, that is not possible with modern medicine. And 2. If transexuals supposedly do transition to become another sex, then that means both that 1. they aren't that sex innately and that there is some sex to transition to, insinuating that there ARE more physical differences aside from gametes, and 2. that they are "more" of that sex than just transgender people are, which is extremely transmedicalist. Not all women have high estrogen, breasts, hips, etc. Transexuals pursue a physical transition to achieve SECONDARY sex characteristics STEREOTYPICALLY associated with another sex than their own. Saying otherwise would indicate that you think things like hormones, breasts, hips, etc are what make the female sex when we have already gone to great lengths to establish that nothing more than ova gametes define that.

Transsexuals do not transition physically to another sex. I propose we take the claim that they magically can, down. It is impossible to transition to another sex, I propose we take anything down that insinuates that. Nativebun (talk) 20:36, 18 March 2022 (UTC) User:Nativebun

You have just posted a big wad of what we on Misplaced Pages call original research. Do you have any sources on the topic of this article that support your point of view? If not, we cannot according to Misplaced Pages's core values, include it in this article in anyway.

By the way, nothing in the stable version of this article suggests that anyone can change their gamete production (except in the sense of ceasing to produce gametes, I suppose), so all of your commentary on that particular issue suggests a failure of reading comprehension on your part. Newimpartial (talk) 20:41, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

The article states that transsexuals can change sex. The definition of sex refers to which gametes an organism produces, nothin more nothing less. Transsexuals are not able to change which gametes they produce. Your response suggests a failure of reading comprehension on your part regarding my proposal. Nativebun (talk) 16:43, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

When the article refers to transgender people who desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another it is not referring to gamete production, which seems obvious to me as a native speaker of English. If you don't understand what "transition" means in this context, you are not competent to edit this article IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 16:56, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

You cannot transition from one sex to another. I am literally trans, and what we CAN do is transition to having the secondary sex characteristics of another sex-- that is what we mean by transition, and it is insulting that you think we have to pretend otherwise. If you don't understand that, then IMO you are not competent enough to make edits let alone challenge others on this subject. Nativebun (talk) 17:03, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

While it may be tempting to edit Misplaced Pages to reflect one's personal experience, this is never a good idea. What matters on Misplaced Pages is not your personal language relating to "sex" vs. "secondary sexual characteristics", but rather the language used in recent, reliable sources -like the ones used in this article. Please also see the article sex assignment, and its sources, to see where your edits in article space diverged from what the RS actually say. Nobody says or implies that anyone can stop producing one set of gametes and start producing another, and your repeated assertion to the contrary does point to CIR issues on your part. Newimpartial (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi Nativebun, thanks for engaging on the talk page. As Newimpartial says, your suggestions read like original research. When making potentially controversial change suggestions, you'll need to show that the current article in some way doesn't follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines. For example:

1. Does the article as currently written do original research? In other words, is it adding commentary or synthesizing the cited sources in a way the sources themselves do not?
2. Are there reliable sources missing, that would support your edit suggestion?
3. Are the current sources inappropriately unduly weighting a certain viewpoint.

Without some argument grounded in Misplaced Pages guidelines, your suggestions aren't likely to gain consensus from the community. It may be helpful to search the archives for this Talk page, using the "search archives" box at the top of the page, to make sure you're not repeating arguments that have already been addressed. Best, Politanvm 20:48, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for your response! I suppose then that there are reliable sources missing to support the statement that it is possible to change sex, the definition of sex being grounded in which gametes an organism produces. If someone could pull up scholarly medical articles showing that a recent treatment has been devised for humans to be able to change which gametes we produce, and that this is something that all self-identified transsexuals use, then that would be lovely. There are reliable sources missing to support the statement made in the article that anyone who identifies as transsexual is somehow able to accomplish this feat of changing sex that no modern medicine is currently capable of. Nativebun (talk) 16:49, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

The term sex, like most words in English, carries multiple meanings. In the case of transition it is generally sex hormones and anatomical sex that are altered, according to the reliable sources relevant to the topic of this article. If you have recent, relevant and reliable sources supporting your apparently original contention that "sex" in all instances means precisely what you want it to mean, I would love to consult those source for myself. Newimpartial (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

The EXACT same thing can be said to you- if you can provide scholarly articles supporting your apparently original contention that "sex" in all instances means precisely what you want it to mean, I would love to consult those source for myself. Nativebun (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

The relevant sources - for example, those relating to changing one's legal sex - are already cited in the article. Newimpartial (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

You can see all of the citations in this article. You haven’t provided any new reliable sources. You haven’t identified any claims in the article that aren’t supported by its inline citation. Without offering something tangible, this discussion isn’t going to go anywhere, and we’re all going to waste our time without making any improvements to the article. So please provide some reliable source, or point out specific claims in the article that aren’t supported by their inline citations. Politanvm 17:50, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I want to be snarky and make a comment about clownfish. but I'll just repeat what I said on your user talk page but you didn't reply to:

I suggest starting with sex assignment at birth if you are less familiar with the term. For humans, the current nomenclature is not "biological sex" (e.g., see the AMA memo here and BOT Report 15 here).

Your personal views (and mine) don't much matter here. Professional organizations and reliable sources demonstrably use "sex assignment at birth" and define sex assignment as based on not just gamates but also gonads, tubrecals/genitalia, presence of a uterus, hormones, and structures of the 23rd chromosome for humans. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:05, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay if you'd like to include those other areas that's fine, but it doesn't support your position. Transsexuals cannot attain a uterus, new gonads, genitalia, and new chromosomal structures. Perhaps they can cut their bodies to make superficial structures made to appear visibly similar to actual genitalia etc of another sex, but they cannot have a real one- and that is okay. They certainly cannot attain new chromosomal structures. The only thing that they can change is hormones, but science has reached a consensus that due to the great amount of hormonal variance within sexes anyways, changing hormones does not constitute sex change. This is part of the argument supporting no hormone requirements/restrictions for trans women in sports. Transsexuals cannot change sex. People who self-identify as transexuals do not necessarily even try changing what is sometimes called "sex re-assignment surgery", many ie blaire white calls herself transsexual just because she got chest implants and hormones. Unless you are insinuating that breasts of a certain size and certain levels of hormones are necessary for being of the female sex? Nativebun (talk) 17:00, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Nativebun: Your personal views on what it means to be transsexual frankly don't matter here and this talk page is not a forum to share them or argue about breast sizes or Youtube celebs. We go by what reliable sources say. You neeed to find some reliable sources that support your claims and explain how they relate to the reliable sources in the article. Otherwise you are only using this space and article to make a WP:POINT about what you view as "the truth" which is fine to do on Twitter but not Misplaced Pages. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Nativebun: Per Politanvm's comment, find a reliable source or drop the stick. Using sex to mean "any sexual trait or characteristic" is a well-established practice. You may personally believe that the term refers strictly to gamete-production, and is therefore unalterable by all medical intervention, but for encyclopediac purposes, that's a fringe theory. That's not what the sentence in Sex ("The type of gametes produced by an organism defines its sex") is saying (and even if it was, Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source).

Regardless of your good intentions, or (borrowing an empty dogwhistle) "biological reality", defining sex in humans this way has very little purpose, except to deny and exclude the experiences of transsexual people who identify as having changed sexes. It also has troubling implications for people whose bodies produce neither eggs nor spermatazoa. I'd never assume this was your intent, but it's nonetheless a change which cedes a lot of ground to the perennial "gender skeptical" POV warriors who wish to describe trans women in terms like "a male-sexed person who identifies as a woman", etc.

Yes, sex reassignment surgery does "reassign sex". No, trans∗ women do not need to have female-sexed gametes or genitals to be female, and yes, we should compete in women's sports, for reasons which are as self-evident as they are unrelated to the definition of biological sex. The article lede implies nothing to the contary.

Misplaced Pages is beholden to Verifiability, and a result, articles do not have the luxury of unpacking every minor epistemological nuance in the distinction between sex and gender. Moreover, Neutral point of view means it reflects only beliefs held by prominent reliable sources, not its editors. Learn to live with that, and enjoy editing, or perhaps (per EvergreenFir's suggestion) open an account on Twitter or YouTube. Sincerely, RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 23:26, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

it's disturbing that you believe this Nativebun (talk) 03:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

​ Believe what? RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk · contribs) 04:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Would like to help you with this, Nativebun. But I've lost patients with this general topic, months ago. GoodDay (talk) 00:15, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

no worries haha wikipedia is exhausting sometimes, take care Nativebun (talk) 17:10, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Just following up here that I agree with Nativebun’s edits, so I have restored the article. Entremark (talk) 04:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

There is quite clearly no consensus here for Nativebun's edit. Please self revert. Sideswipe9th (talk) 05:07, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

How odd for an account created in early December to make their first 10 edits today and immediately start continuing this edit war... And their user page makes a fart joke to boot. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Note I have just stricken the comment above by Entremark per WP:SOCKSTRIKE as that user has been blocked as a sockpuppet. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:02, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Nativebun: Hi NativeBun :) I believe I can help you with your section (Keep in mind, I'm new too, so I can't put it up myself). Yeah, the current into paragraph of the Sex Misplaced Pages article should probably be edited for more clarity too. Just as EvergreenFir says, sex can actually be determined not just from gametes, but also gonads, external anatomy, internal anatomy, hormones, and presence/absence of a y chromosome. The Sexual Characteristics Misplaced Pages page has a great table explaining it. The current intro paragraphs of the sex Misplaced Pages page also mention chromosomes determining sex after saying gametes do but really it should mention all these Evergreen and I listed as determining sex. I think the statement of "The types of gametes an organism produces defines its sex" as determining sex is probably more used to define the sex of animals, not humans. The gamete-only definition has obvious problems when applied to humans as many people can't produce gametes at all (as others have said). A section here explaining this could be titled "Transgender and Intersex Persons". Here is an example of a paragraph for it, with references:

"Transgender people and Intersex people are separate identities, however they are not mutually exclusive identities. Intersex is a term referring to people born with non-binary sexual characteristics, while transgender people can be born with a body considered to have all-male or all-female sexual characteristics. Both groups are often marginalized and face discrimination, but are separate groups, as oftentimes intersex people often identify as male or female, choosing whichever description their bodies most closely fit. Both transgender and intersex persons may undergo sex reassignment surgery to alter their primary or secondary sexual characteristics. Even though a transgender person who is born all-male or all-female and then gets sex reassignment surgery to alter their sexual characteristics would have a similar physical body as an intersex person instead of an all-male or all-female body, the term "intersex" would still not apply to them as they were not born with those nonbinary sexual characteristics.

1. Kang et al. https://openbooks.library.umass.edu/introwgss/chapter/gender-and-sex-transgender-and-intersex/
2. https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity/whats-intersex
3. https://isna.org/faq/transgender/
4. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/

LightProof1995 (talk) 19:54, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Unclear

I genuinely don't understand the difference between this (transgender) and transsexual. Both leads attempt to explain it to the reader, but in my perception both fail. Both mention gender identity and sex assignment, but it's simply not clear what is the difference. --77.162.8.57 (talk) 19:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

The two terms mean more or less the same thing but carry different historical baggage. There might be a case for merging the articles. I'm not sure. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:10, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

As described in the lead paragraphs, "transsexual" generally refers to transgender people who have undergone some medical procedure(s) (often surgery) to affirm their gender. Anecdotally, I don't hear "transsexual" used often anymore, and more often hear "trans" as an umbrella term. Politanvm 23:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I believe the difference is here on the transsexual page: "transsexuals are people who... desire to permanently transition to the sex or gender with which they identify". I.e., transsexuals are defined by wanting to undergo sex reassignment surgery, whereas not all transgender people want to undergo sex reassignment surgery. Also, it says on this page there were already two discussions on merging those two pages, in both 2008 and 2019, both of which ended in them deciding not to merge them. LightProof1995 (talk) 03:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reactions. If this (quoting LightProof1995) "transsexuals are defined by wanting to undergo sex reassignment surgery, whereas not all transgender people want to undergo sex reassignment surgery" would be included in the article, it would make the difference a lot clearer, I think. --77.162.8.57 (talk) 11:02, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

It’s basically already in the lead (Some transgender people who desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another identify as transsexual.) and subsection (Since the 1990s, transsexual has generally been used to refer to the subset of transgender people who desire to transition permanently to the gender with which they identify and who seek medical assistance (for example, sex reassignment surgery) with this.). Politanvm 12:57, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Transsexual is largely deprecated nowadays in favor of trans or transgender, regardless of surgical status. This is a controversial topic in the trans community and I don't have time to find more sources on this right now, but the GLAAD Media Reference Guide has this to say on the subject:

Transsexual (adj.)

An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. As the gay and lesbian community rejected homosexual and replaced it with gay and lesbian, the transgender community rejected transsexual and replaced it with transgender. Some people within the trans community may still call themselves transsexual. Do not use transsexual to describe a person unless it is a word they use to describe themself. If the subject of your news article uses the word transsexual to describe themself, use it as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.

Funcrunch (talk) 13:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, I think anon has a good point. We could do a better job distinguishing the articles. I had to sit and puzzle for a few minutes to make sure I understand our definition of transsexual, which I don't think exactly meshes with common usage. CaptainEek ⚓ 22:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Both terms have evolved over time, but transgender much more so than transsexual, which has changed less, and also has become somewhat ossified. In addition, transgender, being the more contemporary and more actively evolving term, has a multiplicity of meanings that are not all agreed upon even within the community, one of which is the umbrella term which in its broadest sense sometimes includes cross-dressers or drag, while transsexual never does. But also echoing IP's call for clarification, which is reasonable, and possibly even a merger. Mathglot (talk) 19:39, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the scope of Transsexual needs to be clarified---a fair bit of its content is just a fork of this article. I see the sentiment of merging the whole thing into Transgender § Terminology, but I think the term clearly has standalone notability, and redirecting it would provoke the inevitable moaning about "transsexual erasure" by the "woke genderist mob".
IMO an appropriate, more terminology-focused scope for Transsexual is to explain (1) the history of the term, (2) its relation to transgender, and (3) its usage in the modern day. Information about medical transitioning belongs at Gender transition as it is not exclusive to people who identify as transsexual. Just a thought. RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk · contribs) 20:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Limited mention of detransition

There is only one mention of the topic Detransition in this article: a single sentence in the section Mental healthcare that says "Others regret having undergone the procedure and wish to detransition."

Given that detransition has a fairly lengthy article of its own, and is a topic that is entirely within the scope of Transgender, it seems like it is deserving of a section or subsection in this main article. Kane5187 (talk) 14:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I think that subsection already exists. Transgender#Detransition. It seems about the right size as per WP:DUE and links to the main article. Theheezy (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

My mistake, I see you added it. Theheezy (talk) 16:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

The Detransition section contains outdated information, and is directly contradicted by the Detransition article.

Currently the Detransition section is directly contradicted by the article Detransition, which contains more recent information on the subject. The number of Transgender individuals who are estimated to detransition has been found to be much smaller than is quoted here. To be precise, it reads, " ... with estimates ranging from less than 1% to as many as 8%". As the topic is widely cited in transphobic arguments, this is a matter of grave concern. Because it's consensus that outdated or potentially harmful information should be quickly removed from pages covering sensitive topics, I am going to be bold and alter the section to reflect current information and align it with the larger article. Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) (talk) 18:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

I have re-written the section to include up-to-date information and to agree with the larger Detransition article per discussion, but it probably needs a dash of copyediting, as this was a quick job to correct out of date information. I will be touching up the formatting and grammar shortly, but welcome attention from other editors. ^-^ Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) (talk) 19:42, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Please help protect LGBTQ+ and minority representation on Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atomic putty? Rien! (talk • contribs) 18:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Please WP:AGF, it's a bit early for me to be reading bold text. I agree that this needs to be resolved. Can we slightly expand the current text to cover the more well regarded studies on Detransition and give the overall clearer picture to stick to WP:NPOV?

I was thinking something like this:

Detransition refers to the cessation or reversal of a transgender identification or gender transition. Formal studies of detransition have been few in number, of disputed quality, and politically controversial. Estimates of the rate at which detransitioning occurs vary with estimates ranging from less than 1% to as many as 8%. Studies have reported higher rates of desistance among prepubertal children. A 2016 review of 10 prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence found desistance rates ranging from 61% to 98%, with evidence suggesting that they might be less than 85% more generally. Those who undergo sex reassignment surgery have very low rates of detransition or regret. A 2005 Dutch study included 162 adults who received sex reassignment surgery, 126 of whom participated in follow-up assessments one to four years after surgery. Two individuals expressed regret at follow-up, only one of whom said that they would not transition again if given the opportunity. The remaining 124 out of 126 (98%) expressed no regrets about transitioning. A 2021 meta-analysis of 27 studies concluded that "there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after ".

The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey collected responses from individuals who identified as transgender at the time of the survey. 8% of respondents reported having ever detransitioned; 62% of that group were living as a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth at the time of the survey. About 36% reported having detransitioned due to pressure from parent, 33% because it was too difficult, 31% due to discrimination, 29% due to difficulty getting a job, 26% pressure from family members, 18% pressure from a spouse, and 17% due to pressure from an employer.

Thoughts @Atomic putty? Rien!, @Kane5187?

I think trying to mention "censorship around this topic" is not very WP:NPOV, and we should stick to the general statement of, "Formal studies of detransition have been few in number, of disputed quality, and politically controversial." Theheezy (talk) 18:33, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Dear User:Theheezy: Thank you for your speedy reply, and for providing detailed and accurate content. I actually think that what you've come up with is perfect, and I endorse substituting it for the existing section, pending further copyediting. I apologize for the bold text-- as a Transgender Wikipedian, I was somewhat alarmed to read outdated information on such a sensitive and important article. I deeply appreciate your prompt action and attention to policy. <3 Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) (talk) 18:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Please feel free to make the changes along that rough outline as it's the most reasonable presentation for now. Theheezy (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Will do! Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) (talk) 19:16, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey thanks everybody for helping improve the little substub I started, great work.

I was surprised to see the reference I cited to Turban et al. and its 13% estimate replaced with the 8% high estimate the USTS report. I dug into both sources and it's funny, because those 8%/13% numbers actually come from the same study, the 2015 USTS survey. I did a a little original research (just for Talk, don't worry) and the 8% figure in the report appears to come from 2,242 answering yes to detransition/27,715 total participants (8.09%), whereas Turban excludes the 10,564 participants who reported never transitioning in the first place, leaving 2,242 of the 17,151 participants who had ever "pursued gender affirmation, broadly defined" (13.07%).

So both figures are from the same set of data, interpreted differently. The Turban study though certainly isn't outdated, though, nor is citing a reliable source's findings "harmful." Turban is a peer-reviewed data analysis in a medical journal, whereas the USTS report is more of a public-consumption survey report from an advocacy organization. I think we adequately acknowledge in the text that survey data is lacking and problematic in many ways, so to me the difference between 8% and 13% is almost moot. Respectfully, however, I'm going to restore the Turban study to the article because it seems to be one of the best, most recent, and most authoritative sources available. Totally support changing the article if other, equally rigorous sources significantly contradict.

I agree with User:Atomic putty? Rien!, we should probably try to harmonize this subsection with Detransition and speak with the same voice on both pages. I also like what User:Theheezy said about WP:DUE, I think we should keep the section here to 1-2 paragraphs and expand more on specifics in the main article. Kane5187 (talk) 05:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I made a bunch of edits aimed at clarifying some data discussed above and boosting readability and organization. The middle paragraph could use some ref tags to direct the reader to the sources. Kane5187 (talk) 06:24, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey there User:Kane5187, thank you so much for sorting out the sources! I totally agree that it's important to represent the numbers consistently throughout the encyclopedia. And thank you as well for tidying it up-- it's much more readable now!!

P.S. I think I interpreted the higher figure as 'old' because there was an additional citation from ~2010, and I saw that the 8% figure came from a recent article-- feels sort of silly now, considering that they both originated from the same publication..

P.P.S. I'm going to scout around a bit and see if I can find a few more current publications to reference! :)) Atomic putty? Rien! (talk) (talk) 18:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it might be best to copy content and sources from the main Detransition article as they currently are, and then have a discussion on adding additional sources to that article on its talk page as that is the article where those citations would be most relevant. The content here should be no more than a summary of the content there. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Further on the "copy content and sources" approach, is to simply excerpt the material for starters. Here is what two lines of wikicode would look like in the § Detransition section in this article:

This definitely solves the outdated issue, as well as divergence (present and future) and may be a good enough solution. Mathglot (talk) 21:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

New section to Scientific Studies (redux)

This section is a follow-up to this archived discussion on the topic.

Hey Politanvm, I think you are getting primary sources and "no riginal research" confused. This paper is not original research. I had nothing to do with the paper. I am not affiliated with the Univerisyt of Virignia and I don't know anyone who worked on the paper. Misplaced Pages says both primary and seconadry sources are good, but primary sources should be used if they came directly from the sources they cite. This paper cites many, many sources therefore making it both a secondary source that says reincarnation is real (as it cites many papers saying so) but also a primary source saying children with gender dyshporia tend to have past-life memories of the opposite sex. I am probably going to make a section on the "Reincarnation" page titled "Reincarnation and Gender Dysphoria" as I'm pretty sure this idea isn't new in places like India where they have believed in reincarnation for thousands of years and have the third gender Hijra. LightProof1995 (talk) 07:41, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Note: Restoring LightProof's comment above, originally removed in this edit. Mathglot (talk) 16:21, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Sexology and sexuality articles
• Top-importance Sexology and sexuality articles
• WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles
• B-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
• Old requests for LGBTQ+ studies peer review
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles
• B-Class Gender studies articles
• Top-importance Gender studies articles
• Gender studies articles needing infoboxes
• WikiProject Gender studies articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics