Talk:Turkic history: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 13:39, 12 July 2022 editBerkBerk68 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,858 editsm fixed typo.← Previous edit		Revision as of 13:47, 12 July 2022 edit undoHistoryofIran (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers97,258 edits →Deletion of a sourced information Next edit →
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	:::: Could you please elaborate on why the Xiongnu are important in Turkic history? Also adding "''According to some fragmentary information that can be found in the Chinese histories, The Xiongnu were Turkic and not Mongolic.''" still makes it seem as the Xiongnu = Turkic. There are loads of theories. --] (]) 23:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)		:::: Could you please elaborate on why the Xiongnu are important in Turkic history? Also adding "''According to some fragmentary information that can be found in the Chinese histories, The Xiongnu were Turkic and not Mongolic.''" still makes it seem as the Xiongnu = Turkic. There are loads of theories. --] (]) 23:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
	::::: Nation of Xiongnu is a tribal confederation state, which contained almost every nomadic tribes of the region. Majority of these tribes are ], that effected every single major nomadic population in Central Asia and one of these major populations are Turks. There is no doubt about that. The main topic that is currently being discussed by researchers is, origins of the elites/ruling class. Also the classification of Chinese (who has most records about both structure of '''Xiongnu''' and ]) is pretty notable for the article. The reference also contains information of the fact that historians have not classified a specific origin to the Xiongnu. ]<sup>]</sup> 00:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)		::::: Nation of Xiongnu is a tribal confederation state, which contained almost every nomadic tribes of the region. Majority of these tribes are ], that effected every single major nomadic population in Central Asia and one of these major populations are Turks. There is no doubt about that. The main topic that is currently being discussed by researchers is, origins of the elites/ruling class. Also the classification of Chinese (who has most records about both structure of '''Xiongnu''' and ]) is pretty notable for the article. The reference also contains information of the fact that historians have not classified a specific origin to the Xiongnu. ]<sup>]</sup> 00:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
			:::::: It is uncertain what the majority of these tribes were, I highly recommend you to read the article ]. Yes, they have not classified a specific origin indeed, but that mention becomes irrelevant when you add ''"According to some fragmentary information that can be found in the Chinese histories, The Xiongnu were Turkic and not Mongolic."'' right after. Respectfully, this did not improve the huge ] issue of the article at all. --] (]) 13:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

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Problematic article

This article reads like a Pan-Turkist propaganda pamphlet than a wikipedia's article:

Inappropriate tone, e.g.:
- this race had a warrior and nomadic culture
- The history of all people that emerged in Eurasia and North Africa has been affected by the movements of the Turks from afar and close. Turks also played an important role in bringing Eastern cultures to the West and Western cultures to the East. Their own religion became the pioneer and defender of the foreign religions they adopted after Tengrism, and they helped their spread and development (Mani religion, Judaism, Buddhism, Orthodox, Nestorian Christianity and Islam).
Unsourced maps;
At least one unreliable source, e.g.:
- Türklerin ve Tatarların Kökeni, s. 143-178, Selenge Yayınları, Ağustos 2007 by pseudo-scholar Mirfatyh Zakiev;
Cherry-picking sources and probably misinterpreting sources to push WP:Fringe, e.g.:
- Most scholars believe that the Turks first appeared on the stage of history as a political community during the reign of the Huns (Hiung-nu or Shiongnu).
Unsourced claims pushing WP:Fringe, consistent with LTA Tirgil34's MO (e.g. "Claiming that various Indo-European cultures of Central Asia, like the Yamna culture, the Afanasevo culture, the Andronovo culture and the Karasuk culture, were of Turkic origin."), e.g.:
- It is argued that the ancestors of the Turks started with the Afanasievo culture between 2500 BC and 1700 BC and continued with the Andronovo culture between 1700 BC and 1200 BC.
  - which contradicts reliably-sourced statements found in Andronovo culture
    - It is almost universally agreed among scholars that the Andronovo culture was Indo-Iranian.
  - & Afanasievo culture
    - The authors conclude that the Afanasievo people were Indo-Europeans, perhaps ancestors of the Tocharians.

Other editors, e.g. @Krakkos:, @Qiushufang:, @HistoryofIran:, @Whhu22:, etc., what to do with this article? I'm thinking of copy-pasting well-sourced materials from Turkic peoples#History.

References

Hucker 1975: 136
Henning 1948
Sims-Williams 2004
Savelyev, Alexander; Jeong, Choongwon (May 10, 2020). "Early nomads of the Eastern Steppe and their tentative connections in the West". Cambridge. The predominant part of the Xiongnu population is likely to have spoken Turkic (Late Proto-Turkic, to be more precise).
Mallory, J. P. (1997). Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1884964985. Retrieved February 15, 2015. pp. 20-21
Mallory, J. P.; Mair, Victor H. (2008). The Tarim Mummies: Ancient China and the Mystery of the Earliest Peoples from the West. Thames & Hudson. ISBN 9780500283721. p. 261
Allentoft, ME (June 11, 2015). "Population genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia" (PDF). Nature. Nature Research. 522 (7555): 167–172. Bibcode:2015Natur.522..167A. doi:10.1038/nature14507. PMID 26062507. S2CID 4399103.

Erminwin (talk) 17:26, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

This article is indeed dubious. Erminwin's proposal sounds like a good idea. Krakkos (talk) 17:42, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah either that or completely delete this article. It adds zero to Misplaced Pages, and may encourage others to add this to other articles. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:09, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

So when we read that your complain about article, you just don't like it. WP:JDLI Wickelodeon (talk) 20:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

At least one unreliable source?

R. Grousset, L'Empire des steppes, Paris, 1960
DE. Guignes, Histoire generale *des Huns des Turcs et des Mongols, Paris, 1756.
Jean-Paul Roux, Historie des Turcs, 1984.
Jean-Paul Roux, Timur, 1994.
Fayard Paris, Historie des Turcs, 1984.
D.Sinor, Aspects of Altaic Civilization, 1963.
M. Barthold, Turkestan down to the Mongol Invansıon, Londra, 1968.
E. Berl, Historie de l'Europe d'Attila a Tamerlan, Paris, 1946.
M.A. Czaplıcka, The Turks of Central Asia in History and at the Present Day, Oxford, 1918.
W. Eberhard, Kultur und Siedlung der Randvölker China, 1942.
L. Hambis, La Haute-Asie, Paris, 1953.
Hammer-Purgstall, Von, Historie de l'Empire ottoman depuis son origine jusqu!a nos jours, Paris, 1835.
H.H. Howorth, History of the Mongols, Londra, 1876.

But no, they funded by Turko-Persian goverment unlike our glorious Iranian storytelle.. historians. Also Turkicness of Xiognhu's are fringe theory as Iranianness of Sakas. Its one of the strong theories for predicted race of that state.

Wickelodeon (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he meant cited sources. Also, please keep your personal opinion to yourself and don't randomly make silly accusations, see WP:SOAPBOX, WP:OR, WP:GOODFAITH, and WP:FORUM. NOTE: This user just recently attempted to alter sourced information. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:02, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:: By "at least one unreliable source" I meant:

pseudo-scholar Mirfatyh Zakiev's book Türklerin ve Tatarların Kökeni, s. 143-178, Selenge Yayınları, Ağustos 2007 (which is cited & for which there exists an Engish translation by Norm Kisamov in Kisamov's pseudoscientific blog turkicworld.org (blacklisted); if anybody'd be curious enough to read it).

Hasan Celal Güzel, Kemal Çiçek, Salim Koca Türkler Ansiklopedisi, Adana, 2002 (which is mentioned in Turkish book section but not cited inline), whose volume 1 contains this Şevket Koçsoy's article "Türk Tarihi Kronolojisi / Sevket Koçsoy " (pp. 34-248) (readable here), which seemingly claims that various peoples and cultures were either proto-Turks or Turks: Anau, Afanasievo, Andronovo, Scythians/Sakas, etc. and even... Zhou dynasty (I admit that I cannot read Turkish & used Google translate to understand it; still I think it very unlikely that Şevket Koçsoy did not make those Pan-Turkist claims yet Google translate indicates that he did). Erminwin (talk) 15:20, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I see, this is quite problematic. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:02, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of a sourced information

@HistoryofIran could you please explain why exactly did you deleted an important part of the top of the page? Xiongnu and Huns were not classified as definite Turkic on the page, so I don't think that "origins are disputed" is a valid reason. BerkBerk68 16:44, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Per my edit summary as well as due to the fact that 3 out of the 4 citations had WP:VERIFY issues. The only one that didn't, was one of the sources that was in favour of the Turkic component of the Xiongnu, which isn't neutral, considering the article itself proposes various theories. I'm not sure why the information also said that the Huns and Xiongnu were basically the same. This specific bit of information was also discussed in the section up above. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran Yeah, but I still didn't understand the reason why you deleted every single information that contains Xiongnu. Xiongnu's "Turkicness" is a debate subject, yes, but everyone would admit the importance of Xiongnu for the Turkic history. Information of acts at this page does not have to be done by Turks directly, as its how it is at Persian Khosrow I's act is also being included. I am bringing back calendrical informations related to Xiongnu. BerkBerk68 21:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Let me also add that I shall check for better sources on Xiongnu subject and re-add a better & objective text about them at the top of the page. Their importance and necessity for this article is irrefutable. BerkBerk68 22:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Could you please elaborate on why the Xiongnu are important in Turkic history? Also adding "According to some fragmentary information that can be found in the Chinese histories, The Xiongnu were Turkic and not Mongolic." still makes it seem as the Xiongnu = Turkic. There are loads of theories. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Nation of Xiongnu is a tribal confederation state, which contained almost every nomadic tribes of the region. Majority of these tribes are Turco-Mongolian, that effected every single major nomadic population in Central Asia and one of these major populations are Turks. There is no doubt about that. The main topic that is currently being discussed by researchers is, origins of the elites/ruling class. Also the classification of Chinese (who has most records about both structure of Xiongnu and Tujue) is pretty notable for the article. The reference also contains information of the fact that historians have not classified a specific origin to the Xiongnu. BerkBerk68 00:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

It is uncertain what the majority of these tribes were, I highly recommend you to read the article Xiongnu. Yes, they have not classified a specific origin indeed, but that mention becomes irrelevant when you add "According to some fragmentary information that can be found in the Chinese histories, The Xiongnu were Turkic and not Mongolic." right after. Respectfully, this did not improve the huge WP:POV issue of the article at all. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:47, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

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