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Ghazaalch

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Ghazaalch

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Iraniangal777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Ghazaalch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• WP:CRP: Ghazaalch has been edit-warring their preferred version into this article non-stop: Content 1: (----) and Content 2: (---)

• WP:NPOV. Ghazaalch does this while removing other content (from the same sources) without proper explanation: (-----)

• Many warnings (at first they appear to have self-reverted, but now they seem to have lost any regard for policy): (---)

• Ghazaalch's other disruption: tampering RFCs (--), not giving explanations in the talk page when asked to explain reverts (-), making false narratives (), stonewalling (-), and other forms of WP:GAMING (such as WP:BADFAITHNEG ). There is also WP:Tag-teaming, all of which can be discussed if anybody wants, but the above may be the worst of it since at this point Ghazaalch seems to have lost any regard for policy (particularly WP:CRP). Even today they edit-warred this again using a trumped-up edit summary.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. Date Explanation
2. Date Explanation

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• CASE from a month ago.
• Their Talk page also shows a couple of alerts about discretionary sanctions in this are of conflict.
• Participated in an arbitration request or enforcement procedure about the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 22:49, 25 July 2021.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Done.

Discussion concerning Ghazaalch

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Ghazaalch

I won't need to defend myself if the administrators had enough time to go through the discussions in the talk-page, since as I said in a previous Arbitration the main problem with this page is that there is no admin to watch it, so pro-MeK users feel free to do what they like. Here is the summary of the discussion that made Iraniangal777 to bring the case here:

1. Revert of names's discussion starts with Vice regent's objection that TheDreamBoat shouldn't have deleted the English versions of Mojahedin-e-Khalq i.e. People Strugglers& Holy Warriors
2. TheDreamBoat's response is that the translation is not among the most common names used for MeK
3. VR asks that How many sources do you require to show you that "People's Strugglers" has been a commonly used name for the organization? and provides 25 sources that uses the "People Strugglers" and "Holy Warriors"
4. TheDreamBoat's answer starts with Hi Tia, Could you please click on this link, and add the following there (at the bottom) which shows he is editing on behalf of a blocked pro-MeK user.(see Stefka Bulgaria, BarcrMac and Idealigic for the pro-MeK users who were topic-banned before the new ones Fad Ariff, TheDreamBoat, Hogo-2020 and Iraniangal777 emerged) However the reasons that was copy-pasted into the talk page by the proxy was that the 25 sources provided by VR used "MeK" as a common name other than "People Strugglers" and "Holy Warriors"
5. VR's response is that no one is disputed the "MEK" name for the organization, I'm only saying that alternative names are also commonly used
6. TheDreamBoat was topic-banned by then, so another pro-MeK user (Ypatch) continued the discussion but provided no reason other than the section doesn't need more name variations
7. Then it became obvious that Ypatch himself was topic-banned, so another pro-Mek user (Hogo-2020) continued discussion but gave no reason independent of those given by previous users. Because, as I said in a previous arbitration pro-MeK users don't want to reach consensus. They just discuss, or better say, write something, no matter what it is, to show that they are not convinced, and that there is no consensus yet; meaning you cannot add anything to the article; and since there is no moderator to implement the consensus, they are not worried about the way discussions goes on. So I gave up the discussion.
8. Three months later I happened to read a comment by Apaugasma, so I came to know that per WP:BLOCKEVASION I could revert the deletion by TheDreamBoat, because he had been editing on behalf of a blocked user
9. So I reverted TheDreamBoat's deletion, then the edit war started. Now I know that I should have brought the case here instead of involving in edit war.

Being reported by a did-nothing-but-reverting-account, I would also like to summarize another discussion in which pro-MeK users are Gaming the system, deliberately using Misplaced Pages:Consensus required policy to remove a well sourced content, if you let me exceed 500 words limit.

Statement by Vice regent

Fyi, I'm an involved party. Iraniangal777 you need to engage constructively with Ghazaalch on the topic of names. As Ghazaalch points out, almost all your edits at the article are reverts. You've made three comments on this issue () and none of them gave any substantial reason for your revert. You seem to be using WP:CRP to Misplaced Pages:Status quo stonewalling, and this report comes across an attempt to weaponize WP:AE to resolve a content dispute in your favor.VR _talk 04:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by MarioGom

I think Ghazaalch's interpretation of WP:BLOCKEVASION and WP:BLOCKREVERT is fair. The page in question has been subject to edits by a proxy (TheDreamBoat) who eventually got caught and topic-banned.

The initial accusation by Iraniangal777 about tag teaming is interesting, because the behavior by Hogo-2020 and Iraniangal777 looks pretty much the same like the tag teaming and gaming the system tactics that the previous cohort of sanctioned users used. And they were effectively proxying edits for a topic-banned user. MarioGom (talk) 07:56, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Alex-h Except Ghazaalch had a legitimate reason to revert a content removal that: 1) had obviously no consensus, and 2) should have not been done in the first place because it was proxying for a blocked user. 1RR or consensus required should have been no excuse to prevent Ghazaalch's revert. It should be the other way around: those seeking to enact TheDreamBoat's illegit content removal should seek consensus for it. MarioGom (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Hogo-2020

Nobody has yet addressed the diffs by Iranigangal777. Instead this is being deflected to TheDreamBoat (an editor already blocked) or to the OP (Iraniangal777). Yet all that the OP has done is revert Ghazaalch's edit-warring, started a RFC about the disputed content, and reported Ghazaalch with evidence in the form of diffs. What is apparent in that article (and in the diffs provided by the OP) is that Ghazaalch has been persistently edit warring (despite the in-progress RFC about that content or the article's regulations, which I can only guess were put in place to prevent this kind of edit warring). Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Alex-h

Accusing Iraniangal777 of "proxying" because she objected to Ghazaalch's edits (as a different editor who is now blocked also did) would be like saying Ghazaalch is "proxying" on behalf of blocked socks Expectant of Light , Kazemita1 , or Saff V. because they tended to WP:POVPUSH that the MEK are "hypocrites" and a "cult" (matching Ghazaalch's additions to that article, which started after these other socks were blocked). Iraniangal777 or Hogo have not done anything wrong here. Alex-h (talk) 14:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

MarioGom You have this wrong. Ghazaalch did not "revert a content removal", Ghazaalch added new content to the article (some of which concerns an open RFC). Then, when he was told that his additions didn’t have consensus and that he should respect the RFC process, he kept adding (edit warring) that new content to the article anyways using deceiving edit summaries like "Reverting to the version before the edit-warring". Ghazaalch did this in spite of multiple warnings. Alex-h (talk) 15:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Iskandar323

@Dennis Brown: What I found fairly inappropriate about Iraniangal777's behavior with respect to this specific RFC is the way they removed the content it referred to, and essentially shifted the goalposts of their own RFC after starting it. Since 22 June, this was the version of the relevant section. Iraniangal777 then started the RFC on 27 June, and five minutes later deleted a portion of material in the same section, by this point, part of the material to which the RFC seemingly referred. Ghazaalch has partly been reverting, as I did once, to restore this section to its pre-RFC state, as is customary, pending the outcome of the RFC. In the preceding edit to my revert, Iraniangal777 demonstrates a clear understanding that the material they are deleting is part of the content being "summarized" in the RfC, and yet deletes it all the same, before later excusing it due to the material having being added "recently" (though still five days BEFORE the RFC). Given that the RFC involved "shortening proposals", it is rather pertinent what the material contained in the section was immediately prior to the RFC. Otherwise, only people who scour the edit history for old versions know what is being talked about. I have made a note of this at the top of the RFC, conscious of the confusion that this might otherwise cause, since with part of the material deleted mid-RFC, Iraniangal777's "shortening proposal", for instance, only actually "shortens" anything by about 7 words - but again, only because there are an invisible 69 words already deleted by Iraniangal777. This is a phenomenal way to go about causing absolute confusion, but a bad way to hold a transparent RFC. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Fad Ariff

@Dennis Brown: The diffs show that Iraniangal merely reverted to the article’s original version and started a RFC. Aside from the deflection and confusion in this thread, the diffs about Ghazaalch show that he kept edit warring his additions despite lack of consensus, despite the ongoing RFC, and despite warnings showing he was violating CRP. Ghazaalch also used a dishonest edit summary to restore his edits after being reported at ANI. Ghazaalch has also been re-arranging the comments of other editors in that RFC (even after being asked to stop ). Like Alex-h clarified for others above, Ghazaalch added this new content to the article, and then proceeded to constant edit war / make WP:CRP violations. Is all of this going unnoticed? Fad Ariff (talk) 12:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: thank you for your feedback. Maybe you can also take a quick look at Iskandar323 report (the same topic area, and Iskandar323 and myself are also involved there)? Fad Ariff (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Ghazaalch

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• There are a lot of people edit warring on that page, should I just block all of them? I will say this, if you are adding material that describes a group as a "cult", and there is an ongoing RFC about what to add, you need to restore the article to the version that existed before the edit warring started, and hash it out on the talk page in the RFC. The RFC seems to be moving along in a reasonable fashion. If people will stop reverting (which it has slowed down or stopped), then I don't have to break out the ban hammer on everyone. The main point here is that there seems to be a lot of bad behavior going on, although it has slowed. It would be in everyone's best interest to just stop editing that portion and stick to the ongoing RFC BEFORE adding any of that material back. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

  Technically, removing/adding to an article during an RFC isn't a violation of any policy per se. Again, I would really rather let the RFC play out, and you can note the differences in the RFC comment if you want. It is difficult for admin to start parsing content edits without there being a clear behavioral issue at stake. I can't just decide what should or shouldn't be in the article during an RFC. I can block for edit warring, POV pushing and the like, but this is so clear that it's a violation, even if it is a bad idea. It shouldn't change the RFC itself, which is focused on specific wording as an end point. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

  Fad Ariff, there was a lot of back and forth before the RFC start, but technically the RFC started without Ghazaalch's additions. If Ghazaalch reverts again while the RFC is ongoing, I would probably just block them from editing any article. Fortunately, the reverts have been quiet for the last few days. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

• Agree with the above. If people will just let the RfC run its course, there's no need to start going crazy handing out sanctions; that would be preferable. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:46, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Volunteer Marek

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 02:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

• WP:BLPDS. The "pro-Putin" language might also bring this into WP:ARBEE.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Rania Khalek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

1. Mar 20, 2022: This is Volunteer Marek's (VM) first edit to the article. It adds Her views have been described as far-left, pro-Assadist, and pro-Putin. The edit summary says "this was removed by IPs, reverted, removed again etc, until it got missed - restoring". This appears to be a reference to a content dispute from over three years ago in January 2019. A talk page discussion was started Jan 29, 2019 at Talk:Rania Khalek#This is shameful, and "Her views have been described as left-wing/far-left, pro-Syrian government, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Russia." was removed Jan 29, 2019 15:43. As far as I can tell, that content stayed out until Marek restored it on March 20, 2022.
2. The history shows four edits to the article between VM's edits to the article ending March 20 07:29, and July 5.
3. Jul 5 13:36: the edit is remove by Pinkville with edit summary removing a non-NPOV sentence from the first paragraph and adding it to the Talk page. Its contents can be reinserted in a more appropriate section (e.g. "Criticism". Pinkville also made this post to the talk page, in the same thread from 2019.
4. Jul 5 13:45: Philip Cross restores the content, but places it in the body, not the lead
5. Jul 5 18:53: VM moves the content from the body, and puts it back to the lead.
6. Jul 5 18:57: Burrobert removes the content, referencing WP:LABELS and the talk page discussion in the edit summary
7. Jul 5 20:02: VM restores the content
8. Jul 10 22:15: Huldra removes the content (and replaces it with a different description/source) with edit summary "see talk"; she starts another talk page discussion at Talk:Rania Khalek#The lead
9. Jul 10 23:01: VM restores the content
10. Jul 11 23:06: Huldra removes the content with edit summary "See talk, and pr WP:ONUS: start a WP:RfC if you want to include this stuff".
11. Jul 11 23:58: VM restores the content with edit summary "Nah, nah, nah. This “UNDUE” business is an obvious false excuse for reverting since you’re fine with her views being summarized in the first place. And with 9 RS in there (more can be easily added but don’t want to ref bomb) the “ONUS” argument is weak sauce too"
12. Jul 13 21:51: I remove the content, with edit summary "Disputed content stays out until there is consensus for inclusion, per ONUS. This is especially true of controversial statements about BLPs. Next person to reinstate this without consensus gets a trip to AE."
13. Jul 14 01:06: VM restores the content with edit summary "the material is well sourced, the purpose of the lede is precisely to summarize a person's views, there's 9 sources there, all reliable and trying to defend your WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT edits with threats and intimidation in edit summaries fails several Misplaced Pages policies"
14. Jul 14 01:26: VM posts to the article talk page asking me to "explain how you got here" and accusing me of edit warring, "trying to find an excuse to file another (spurious) WP:AE report against an editor that you have a contentious history with" and "stir it up with your ol' friends and pour some cans of gasoline on some fires that had nothing to do with you"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

• I don't know about any BLPDS sanctions. Previously sanctioned in WP:EEML.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Previously sanctioned in the EE topic area
• Alerted to EE DS June 27, 2022
• Alerted to BLP DS July 14, 2022 00:31

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think the only AE report I've ever filed before, ironically, was 3 years ago against Huldra. I don't think I've ever taken VM to AE before; I did take him to COIN last year, where there was consensus he had a COI, but that was unrelated to this.

FYI, On July 5, the subject posted about this on Twitter, where she has 250k followers. Levivich 02:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

he tried to drag me before ARBCOM and ANI numerous times before is not true. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I've never tried to drag VM before Arbcom or ANI before. I remember this ANEW, this COIN, both from Nov 2021, and I think this is the third. Levivich 03:30, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Special:Diff/1098074760

Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek

Statement by Volunteer Marek

Aside from linking to some edits, Levivich fails to explain exactly what is supposed to be wrong with any of these edits. The text was there going back to at least 2019 although it got bounced around the in the article. When I put it back in the lede there were 7 reliable sources supporting it. I added two more making it 9. Now there's 11 reliable sources supporting the summary (indeed, it's earned an "excessive citations" tag)

Couple notes:

1. As mentioned on talk, Levivich never edited the article before. As is well known we've had some very serious disputes before, in particular before WP:ARBCOM. His sudden appearance in a middle of my disagreement with another editor looks very much like WP:STALK and a lame attempt at getting payback/restarting old fights.

2. I've been trying not to make too much fuss about it, but one of the other editors who tried to remove the text from the article, User:Pinkville was canvassed off-wiki to perform that edit on someone else's behalf. As soon as an admin comments here I will send the evidence privately. Since they made only one revert though, personally I'd let it slide with a warning.

3. There's some substantial WP:COI editing on the article by one of the subject's co-workers/employees/co-authors, with a clear attempt at POVing the article. My edit was the first step to try to undo some of that. Since those edits were made under a username which is potentially identifiable to a real person I'll refrain from linking the specific edits here but will send the diffs to any admin who comments here.

Anyway, this report by Levivich is just petty and vindictive and about as spurious as they come. They know it too which is why they engage in this pre-emptive "I don't think I've ever taken VM to AE before" (no, but he tried to drag me before ARBCOM and ANI numerous times before and anyone who's been around for any amount of time knows the whole sorry Icewhiz-related story). Honestly, this deserves WP:BOOMERANG on account of the WP:STALKing and WP:BATTLEGROUND by Levivich. Volunteer Marek 02:58, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

he tried to drag me before ARBCOM and ANI numerous times before is not true. Oh my god Levivich, are you seriously going to pretend that there isn't some serious history here? Somehow you conveniently "forgot" your part in this little ArbCom fiasco (in which you played a HUGE role in agitating against me). I mean, for cow's sake, you wrote... let me check ... 2400 words (words, not characters) there demanding sanctions against me (was rejected), but now you're here with this little "Volunteer Who? Barely heard of them before!" act? Seriously? Volunteer Marek 03:45, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Lol. "Disclosure unauthorised" has ... two edits. Anyone want to venture a guess who this is? I'd offer a bet but it's too easy. Volunteer Marek 06:26, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: Levivich just broke the 1RR restriction imposed on the talk page, twice . Since they just filed this report (which counts as notice of DS) and they've been editing in this area for a long time, they're fully aware that the 1RR restriction is in place. Volunteer Marek 18:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Huldra: User:Pinkville was canvassed to revert on that article off-wiki (if they had insisted on it, I would’ve reported them here). Another major contributor who disagreed here has a big ol’ COI (co worker). Those kind of comments/input *should* be ignored (or even sanctioned). That leaves pretty much you and Levivich, with Levivich jumping in at last second, for, you know, “his own reasons”. Volunteer Marek 00:21, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Pinkville, I’m not sure why you insist on pretending like there’s nothing here. One person asked another person off wiki to “fix” the article for them (I.e. curate the article to their liking), that person then said their partner was an admin on Wiki and could take care of it, at which point you popped up and said you’d take care of it. Through out your involvement with article, even after I alluded to the behind the scenes stuff that you were engaged in, you failed to be upfront or even acknowledge the fact that you were contacted and asked off wiki to edit the article and were doing so, “as an admin”, at the behest of your partner. This is the “basis in reality” that you somehow are sitting here denying exists.

I’ve genuinely been trying to be cool about this since your involvement in the article was minor (perhaps because I indicated my awareness of the situation caused you to hold back) but broadly speaking that kind of off-wiki coordination and doing edits on behalf of other users (acting as their WP:MEATPUPPET) is sanction worthy and most certainly not conduct “becoming an administrator”.

Under the circumstances I believe the “scale of my accusations” was as mild as possible. I tried to only make you aware that I was aware of what was going on. I *could* have, and in retrospect perhaps *should* have, immediately brought this off wiki canvassing/meatpuppetry/coordination to a notice board and asked for your tools to be removed, which is what often happens in such cases. Volunteer Marek 04:37, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

Rania Khalek is not in WP:ARBEE, it is however in ARBPIA (and ARBBLP). I dont see where he was notified of the ARBPIA sanctions however. His ARBBLP notification was made today and postdates all but the final two diffs. I also dont see where an explicit claim of a BLP violation was made here, just a nebulous claim that it is contentious material. I dont see how this merits AE at all, there are only two diff that postdate any relevant DS alert and neither of those two diffs on their own merit anything. As far as "pro-Putin" bringing it in to ARBEE, it might if that were in reference to say Ukraine, but it isnt, it is in reference to Syria, which makes it a WP:GS/SCW issue, but no, not an ARBEE one. Though VM should stop reverting and open an RFC or a thread at NPOV/N to gauge consensus. But there is nothing that merits AE here. nableezy - 02:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Well hello obvious sock, but commenting in a talk page does not satisfy any awareness requirement, but that does show ARBPIA awareness. But there still is no explanation of what in ARBPIA was violated here. But really, do you feel like your argument is strengthened or diminished by the appearance of obvious bad hand accounts? nableezy - 06:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Largely agree with KoA after reading that diff, If you were really concerned about upholding BLP policy, as you claim to be, you'd have been satisfied when I added eight sources backing up a controversial claim about a living person. But no, you're not satisfied with that, because you don't care about BLP, you only care about getting Atsme in trouble, because you don't like Atsme, because she disagrees with you in content disputes. is actually, word for word, what happened here. I dont actually agree with VM's edit, and I think he should self-revert and open an RFC, but that quote could be featured on the old Daily Show skit of a person arguing against themselves. Seems more based on personal vendetta than anything AE worthy here, and that should merit a boomerang. The 1RR violation may be excusable, if and only if a BLP/N thread was opened after they claimed it to be a BLP violation. But they did not, and Levivich is aware of the discretionary sanctions for ARBPIA, the edit-notice is listed, and he should be sanctioned for violating the 1RR (again). nableezy - 20:59, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

François Robere there isnt a BLPRESTORE revert here, there wasnt a claimed BLP violation until after the last edit in the complaint. There certainly is below, and Im on pins and needles to see if it gets dealt with. nableezy - 14:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

François Robere I hadnt seen that, and I agree at that point BLPRESTORE should have been followed. But it does matter when the objection was actually raised, because otherwise it simply does not apply. nableezy - 18:21, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by GizzyCatBella

So Levivich, you tracked VM to that article, then you made 1 edit (one), quickly followed by see you at AE comment of yours. But what do you have here? Nothing. Looks like it didn't work last time around for you, so you are trying again, don't you? This spurious report deserves a speedy WP:BOOMERANG and I hope you'll get one promptly. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again...Mr. 2 edits Disclosure unauthorized...(better fitting name would be Entrance denied) 3.5 hours? What took you so long? - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

This should help - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Pinkville - You're basically in a tense content disagreement with VM and PC. - GizzyCatBella🍁 04:34, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Note:

The article has been nominated for deletion (good idea) - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

The article has been deleted - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:34, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Disclosure unauthorised

The user is blocked.Xx236 (talk) 12:27, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

Based on this AE action brought by VM, I would think this is actionable as well, even if VM calls it petty, etc. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive224#Sir Joseph

Statement by KoA

I'll will admit this request does come across as Levivich out to get VM that I'm getting hints of WP:BOOMERANG, even before VM's responses on more background on the interaction. That's independent of if there are sanctionable issues with VM's actions, but right now, Levivich's tendency to pursue battleground behavior against editors they've been in disputes with seems to be inflaming the subject more noticeably right now.

It looks like Levivich has a pretty clear vendetta against VM based on even a quick perusal of their talk page. It's pretty clear this is a multi-editor dispute at the article itself, so for Levivich to come here singling out VM is really looking like they are not heeding their warning back at ANI about this kind of behavior at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1038#User:Levivich_long-term_tendentious_editing battleground behavior and more at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1099#Levivich_and_personal_attacks. Given how often they're around AE, ANI, etc. and the history with VM, Levivich's comments about never taking VM to AE are bordering on purposely misleading with that kind of history going on in the background since it gives an appearance of being not quite as involved as they actually are, and don't really seem to take heed of the previous battleground cautions they've been getting.

I think what puts this over the top for me is that Levivich is using this interaction to jump into an edit war against VM at the article. I'm also seeing more heat/tendentiousness rather than clearly showing a BLP exception to edit warring. I'd be pretty apt to suggest at least a one-way interaction ban on Levivich towards VM because I would have concerns about gaming/wiki-lawyering from Levivich based on past admin discussions, but if practicality is an issue, making it two-way "no-fault" just to try to settle the topic down might be the best. I don't know the topic dynamics enough to know if that could cause gaming elsewhere, but this interaction at least does seem to be a problem as part of Levivich's wider issues. KoA (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed Nableezy, I would have some issues with VM's content (albeit very workable) if I was involved in the topic, VM seems able to work with non-tendentious editors based on comments I've seen without the need for sanctions. I set that to the side once I saw how Levivich was antagonizing the situation even further, and I'm always extremely cautious when I see someone vaguely using BLP as an excuse to edit war and continue long-standing disputes against another.

This part of the Levivich's statement towards VM struck me the most though: If you were a teenager or in your early twenties, I'd chalk it up to still-developing executive functions, but unfortunately there is no such excuse for your behavior. Find a more productive hobby than fucking with people on the internet. May I suggest building an encyclopedia. That alone is already establishing the existing battleground invective toward VM, but speaks to the lack of self-awareness that seems to be permeating this most recent dispute. That kind of behavior is what DS are supposed to tamp down at least. KoA (talk) 21:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Huldra

Though I must say I am disappointed with Volunteer Marek's (VM) behaviour at the Khalek-page, I am not sure this report belongs here at AE. Two editors before me (Pinkville and Burrobert) object to the stuff VM is working so hard to insert in the Khalek article. VM's reaction is to double down and insert it, anyway.

And no-one has claimed that no source have called Khalek "pro-Assadist and pro-Kremlin", the objection is that this is one side of the story, also (as mentioned on the talk-page) many (most?) of those labelling her that are blogs and opinion-pieces.

User:Pinkville wrote on the talk-page 02:05, 6 July 2022 "This article doesn't provide information about Khalek's views, it provides almost exclusively views purported to be hers by people and institutions that are hostile to her and the positions she has actually taken, e.g. her pro-Palestinian stance. To be a fair article, her own views/work should be presented, and any worthwhile criticism of her views/work can be included as appropriate. This is going to take some collective effort, but we're going to make this a reasonable, fair article, which it is not at the moment. Sound good? " I think this was a pretty reasonable summary/reflection; too bad VM chose to ignore it and edit-war instead.

And for full disclosure (all "oldtimers" tend to have some common history) I believe this is the first time I have been "on the same side" in a dispute with Levivich. As for VM; at times I have been 100% supportive of him (as with the #$%&!@& User:I...); other times we have disagreed. Huldra (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Volunteer Marek: I don't know how Pinkville came to the Khalek-page; I do know that they are an admin, and that they wrote some (IMO, very sensible) advice on the talk-page, which you proceeded to ignore. I also know that you treated WP:ONUS and my request for a WP:RfC like it was a joke. Big thanks to GizzyCatBella for doing what should have been your job (pr ONUS); ie starting an RfC. Your behaviour on the Khalek-page leaves me seriously unimpressed, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Pinkville

I removed a non-NPOV sentence from the article and added it to the Talk Page with the open invitation to any editors to update the article to better conform to NPOV, including reinserting criticism or some version of the sentence in a more appropriate context and once content had been added to provide a neutral summary of Khalek's work and views. Later the same day I left a message on the talk page of an editor (ImprovedWikiImprovment) who had worked on this article two+ years ago and who I thought had approached the subject and the discussion fairly. Not long after, VM left this reply to me on the same user talk page. I was surprised by the tone and scale of VM's accusations against me - none of which have any basis in reality. Accordingly, I left a reminder of WP:Assume Good Faith , which was thrown back at me . FYI, as far as I can recall, I had never crossed paths or even heard of VM before this incident. On this page, VM says: "As soon as an admin comments here I will send the evidence privately." Well, I'm an admin and I welcome him to furnish the evidence of my misdeeds. This sort of insinuation and secrecy is distasteful and inappropriate. How did I come to this article? I've been editing WP since 2002 (before 2005 using an anonymous account) and I've mainly been focused on expanding and improving the content. I've worked predominantly in two areas, 19th century photography (particularly in Asia), and various political subjects that I know well and have a particular interest in. Many of the latter have been articles with contentious edit histories - I've been involved in tense discussions over NPOV and related issues numerous times, and in those discussions I've had two goals in mind: to improve the content and render it NPOV and comprehensive, and to try to minimise the possibility of edit wars, painful arguments, and other counterproductive activity. I've made some mistakes, but overall I think I've been pretty successful. Because of my interests I've checked in on this article a few times in the last couple of years, though I don't believe I've made any edits on it. Recently I was made aware of the passage I subsequently removed and placed in the Talk Page with the declared aim of improving the article, making it better conform to NPOV, and reinserting the removed sentence if agreed by other editors. I was taken aback by VM's response to my actions and to VM's dogged intent to repeatedly return the passage that I think at the very least merited discussion before being used in the article. Instead of the project of improving the article being one of collaboration - certainly with disagreement - it risks becoming just another deflating, wasteful, unpleasant consumer of time, energy, and good will. Pinkville (talk) 03:48, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Volunteer Marek Let me remind you of the opening sentence in Misplaced Pages:Canvassing: ''In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it be done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus.'' That is precisely what happened. Contrary to your much exaggerated claims, for instance: "you failed to be upfront or even acknowledge the fact that you were contacted", I stated above that "I was made aware" of a non-NPOV passage and moved it to the talk page. Another hyperbolic claim is that I agreed -- or was even asked -- to "curate the article to their liking" (your words, fantasizing)... your behaviour here is far more in keeping with that activity than mine, by insisting on inserting claims that are no more than hearsay or slander, while imposing obstacles to providing any counter narrative. From the start I have simply promised to make the article NPOV, which it is very much not right now, and my actions reflect that promise. Let me also remind you that it is your behaviour that is being discussed here, not mine. You are the editor who ignored calls for civil discussion on the talk page (to avoid edit warring and arguments), repeatedly inserting material that others find problematic, assuming bad faith, and being belligerent. On another user's page you used veiled threats and made false accusations against me: I’m gonna try to head off this nonsense before you do something unwise and lose your admin tools (I can see that you do good work in other areas of Misplaced Pages). What you’re doing here is a violation of WP:CANVAS. There’s also WP:COI, WP:INVOLVED and WP:OFFWIKI (see third paragraph) and WP:FORUMSHOP. Of course you are free to make your own opinions on the subject known on the talk page. Volunteer Marek 05:13, 6 July 2022 (UTC)". That was after I'd made one, possibly two edits, and asked one other editor who had previously worked on the article if they were interested in looking at it again. If these are examples of you "trying to be cool" (in response to zero provocation) then maybe you should take a little Wikibreak. Pinkville (talk) 22:56, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

This is a valid content dispute, but everyone involved comes across looking bad. A statement that Her views have been described as far-left, pro-Assadist, and pro-Putin cited to a bunch of reasonably prominent, high-profile opinion pieces published in reputable publications saying as much is not a sufficiently clear-cut BLP violation to justify a 3RR exemption or require immediate sanctions; but it certainly may be WP:UNDUE, especially if the authors of those pieces are just talking heads with no relevant expertise, and BLP concerns are perhaps a reason to slow down and hold an RFC rather than restoring it repeatedly. If I read right this dispute has been going on for over three years, off again and on again; nothing is lost by waiting a bit longer for an RFC to resolve. --Aquillion (talk) 04:35, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by François Robere

Can admins comment on the applicability of WP:BLPRESTORE and WP:OWN in cases like this and the one filed against Philip Cross below? François Robere (talk) 14:09, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Nableezy: Burrobert raised a BLP objection on July 5th at 21:50, around the same time they removed the content from the article (the OP's diff #6 ), and Pinkville raised it the next day. VM restored it three more times after that.

Not that it matters. The fact that a slew of objections have been made on a BLP's page should be enough, regardless of whether anyone actually raised the policy. François Robere (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Gitz6666

After having written one of the longest tirades against Volunteer Marek (VM) since the times of the Philippics, I won't pretend I'm not biased. When I opened this recent discussion at ANI on VM's behaviour alleging incivility and POV-pushing, I hoped that the outcome would have been a topic ban. WP:NAT and disregard for Wikiquette shouldn't be tolerated in an area as sensitive as Eastern Europe. Later, when I noticed the RfC in Rania Khalek, I understood that the problems were not limited to EE. VM is constitutionally incapable of abiding by the BRD cycle: as soon as they are reverted, they simply need to re-revert, again and again. I then thought that the belligerent spirits of this enthusiastic edit warrior (e.g. ) could perhaps be tempered by the 1RR - let's pull a couple of teeth from the old tiger. But yesterday VM started to openly canvass in the AE discussion where I am involved (here above) and now I believe that this is a case of WP:NOTHERE.
To be honest, I'm not surprised by the way my views changed in the course of time: I was shocked when VM denied that shooting Russian prisoners of war in the legs amounts to torture ; I don't know what to say about this - it's disgusting and frankly beyond my capability of WP:AGF. Also belittling a fellow editor in the following way is unacceptable: . Gimme a break. There's absolutely no source for such a claim (probably because it's patently ridiculous). The given source certainly doesn't say anything so stupid. But it's also frankly offensive ... even attempting such a comparison is offensive, vulgar and dishonest. I am very tempted to report this fairly transparent violation of WP:POINT; this is almost a verbatim quotation from our WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL.
I believe that this is not the kind of editor that should be allowed to work in this project. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC); edited 21:01, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Result concerning Volunteer Marek

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• There are no rewards/points cards for being reported at AE, though 22 times might have earned you a free large soda. </sarcasm> — Preceding unsigned comment added by EvergreenFir (talk • contribs) 22:06, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

• Without comment on the merits in this report, I blocked Levivich for 24 hours as a standard admin action (in spite of WP:ARBPIA sanctions being an option) for edit warring on a 1RR article, Rania Khalek. The block is being reviewed at WP:XRV. I won't comment on this report. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

• I'm sympathetic to the need to go through multiple lengthy processes to try to get a possible BLP vio addressed in areas where there is ongoing contention. This article/issue is currently being discussed in three places besides here. valereee (talk) 22:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Golden

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Golden

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

ZaniGiovanni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Golden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 17 June 2022 - Golden removes Armenian name from the lead with insufficient explanation.
2. 8 July 2022 - Golden decides to reply to the solid arguments presented on talk just a mere 20 days later, despite editing numerous times during those days. The reply is an irrelevant search result that isn’t pertaining to the arguments of including the alternative name in the lead, and there is more disturbing context to it, see my elaboration in the additional comments below. WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, WP:CIR
3. 9 July 2022 - Golden reinstates their own problematic edit less than 12 hours later with “rv per talk”, referring to their subpar talk reply and ignoring consensus on talk. WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, WP:CIR
4. 17 June 2022; , (18 June 2022) - Golden rewrote articles while adding unsourced “forcing the Azerbaijani population to flee”. After I asked them to clarify on Talk:Mərzili#Unsourced and addressed their latest argument, also asking them to stop doing same sentence additions until the discussion is over and we have some sort of consensus, they still continued doing so now with “forcing the Kurdish and Azerbaijani population to flee”, without a source and without engaging/explanation to my last comment. WP:OR, WP:ONUS, WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, WP:CIR

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 16 April 2020 - Blocked for sockpuppetry for 3 days
2. 3 April 2021 - Blocked for sockpuppetry indefinitely
3. 22 October 2021 - Put under AA topic ban as an unblock condition
4. 23 April 2022 - AA topic ban lifted

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 9 May 2022

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Golden was blocked for sockpuppeting and, on a condition to remove the block, put under an AA topic ban. Although the topic ban was appealed a few months ago on April 23rd, Golden has continued to display the same tendentious pattern that resulted in their block and topic ban, as much of their sockpuppeting focused on name changes for settlements in Azerbaijan. I did a courtesy warning about one of Golden's edits to their mentor, see User_talk:MJL#Monitoring_/_mentoring. Golden agreed to self-revert the tendentious edit per their mentor's advice. However, the problematic behavior of Golden in the AA area didn’t improve even after this.

They removed the Armenian name from the Zangilan lead with insufficient explanation, see the 1st diff. They were replied to with talk arguments that they didn’t address for 20 days. It gets very confusing and bad faith from here on; user Armatura who made the arguments was blocked on 8th of July (unrelated to Zangilan lead), only after which, hours later, Golden finally bothered to reply to a now blocked user. With what intentions when now Armatura can't reply back, I'm not sure. Golden’s reply itself was an irrelevant search result and didn't address the arguments of alternative name in the lead (wasn't a move discussion). But Golden didn't stop there; they restored their own edit less than 12 hours later after that 20 day delayed reply, with an edit summary "per talk". They reinstated their own edit based on that subpar talk comment when the opposing user has no means to reply. Even other opposing editors on talk (who formed consensus) didn’t have the chance to reply either (when I saw Golden’s reinstating edit, I reverted and commented myself).

In good faith, I asked about this on Golden’s talk first, wanting to understand their rationale. There should’ve been one I thought given how serious this is, given their recent tban, and given that I just notified about their tendentious edit after the tban - all of these should’ve been enough reflection for Golden and I expected a well justified rationale for their behavior. Yet all I received were elusive justifications and reassurances that amount to nothing at this point, User_talk:Golden#I_want_to_understand_your_rationale_first.

Other examples include Golden adding unsourced content in articles without addressing the arguments, see the diffs in 4th point. I think this user didn't learn anything and their tban should be reinstated, the length of their original probation wasn't enough to make them edit without tendentious pattern/behavior. Perhaps, an indef would be more suiting.

Tamzin Golden shows diff from June, claiming that "information was there" and they only expanded. In reality, it was added by Golden themselves, 23 April, after their tban appeal, with no source. The later expansion added more unsourced wording without addressing talk arguments.

The issue now isn’t whether a source for it actually exists or not, but that Golden was pushing it without having a source himself and that he omitted adding it in April. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 05:43, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Golden

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Golden

I explained my reasoning for the first three diffs (which are all part of the same dispute) here, and I don't have anything else to add at the moment. Regarding the last diff, I provided ZaniGiovanni with a reliable source for the change, which he did not find satisfactory and requested further detail from sources. I believe the source I've provided is sufficient enough and the level of detail he is expecting is unrealistic, which is why I haven't responded further. — Golden 19:32, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: The following information was already in the article prior to my rewrite (): The Azerbaijani and Kurdish population of the village fled during the First Nagorno-Karabakh when Armenian forces captured the village. So my expansion added no new information about this in particular. — Golden 16:29, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by MJL

This edit had sufficient explanation. These were not solid arguments and starts with a bold-face falsehood because Armatura pointed out Golden's revert 3 minutes after Golden had already self-reverted. This is the type of thing that made Armatura difficult to deal with, so understandably Golden decided to disengage for a while. Where Golden went wrong was re-instating their edits so soon after their reply (and waiting so long to reply in general). However, it is a stretch to say anything on that talk page was a "consensus" for either side. ZG claims there was, but that is doubtful with the amount of bad faith found in that thread.

Golden consistently expresses a willingness to listen to others and self-correct. () They have written content like Declaration of Independence of Azerbaijan to GA status since the topic ban has been lifted. Golden has been almost entirely absent from the drama boards which I personally find incredibly commendable.

Does Golden still get into disputes? Of course, but they have kept their cool even during stressful situations. If most editors in AA2 were like Golden, then the project would be better off in my opinion.

That said, I am biased here. Golden is a wiki-friend of mine. The "mentor-mentee" aspect of our relationship is a bit overblown (it's mostly just me being supportive and pointing out any potential missteps as I see them). I was personally incredibly upset about these two edits since I was involved with Armatura's block and don't want anyone to think I did that to proxy for Golden or anything. Armatura's behavior had been bothering me for a while, but if I weighed in on the content dispute itself I would probably have taken his side.

–MJL ‐Talk‐ 19:10, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Tamzin: I'm not seeing a problem with the edit you mentioned except that it is uncited. I did a bit of digging, and I was able to confirm that, yes, Kurds were forced to flee their homes in the Lachlan District (including Minkend) in 1992 (Available from Academic Search Complete in EBSCOHost using WP:TWL). Golden's phrasing was honestly an incredibly neutral way to describe what happened considering my source says All, or almost all, Muslims were driven out or fled. A number were killed, and many more died before they reached the Azerbaijani lines or Iran. That's not from a partisan source for the record; it's the Central Asian Survey. –MJL ‐Talk‐ 05:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Golden

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• @ZaniGiovanni: Your statement, including addendum, is currently at 752 words. Please shorten it to at most 500. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 03:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
• Thanks for trimming your statement, ZaniGIovanni.There's nothing wrong with waiting a while to respond to something, assuming you have no WP:MESS to clean up (WP:NOTCOMPULSORY / WP:VOLUNTEER). However, restoring the edit without waiting for discussion—noting that, while Armatura had been blocked by this point, Laurel Lodged had also commented agreeing with Armatura—was suboptimal, at the very least, and not the kind of behavior you want to see from someone fresh off of a TBAN. My greater concern, though, is with ZaniGiovanni's fourth point. Adding forcing the Kurdish and Azerbaijani population to flee to an article, without a citation, after being previously called out for usage of similar phrases, seems like poor judgment at best, and a provocation at worst. Golden, could you please comment on in particular? -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 16:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

  Acknowledging the pings I've gotten here; would like to hear other admins' perspectives before commenting further. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 15:46, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Gitz6666

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gitz6666

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:02, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Gitz6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Eastern Europe

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. removal of well-sourced claims about forceful deportations of Ukrainian children because (edit summary) “no allegation of war crime”. Gitz6666 explains why he thinks this is not a war crime : “…drafting a law on adoption is not a war crime… There are many different interests at stake here, and the interest of Ukraine in avoiding Russian naturalisations is only one (and relatively minor compared to the interests of the child)”. Surprisingly, but Gitz6666 considers this as a legitimate adoption. ??? No, that is a heinous war crime, possibly even a genocide – according to RS .
2. , , – removal of well sourced (NYT, BBC, etc. ) claims about rapes by Russian soldiers. Why? Because (edit summaries) “WP:EXCEPTIONAL”, “this text fails WP:V spectacularly” etc. No, this info does not fail WP:V.
3. – including six "alleged" and negative info on Ukrainian ombudswoman that does not belong to the page. The “alleged” is not supported by sources. For example, there was no doubts that the bodies of civilians were burned by Russian soldiers (2nd “alleged” in the diff); there was no doubts that the mayor was abducted by armed men (3rd “alleged”), and so on. Note that the edit was revert over objections by other contributors.
4. , , , edit warring to include the following: “The Russian military allegedly exposed the civilian population to unnecessary and disproportionate harm by using cluster munitions” instead of simply saying that “The Russian military attacked the civilian population using cluster munitions”. How come? There is no question they indeed attacked the civilian population and killed civilians using cluster munitions - as a matter of fact . (striked through to reduce volume of the request)
5. a removal of reliably sourced claim that Russian forces used Ukrainian children as human shields.
6. removal of reliably sourced allegations by the British ambassador to the United Nations of sexual violence against children by Russian troops.
7. removing well sourced info about killing over 50 elderly persons in a Ukrainian care home by Russian soldiers and placing it to a section about war crimes ("human shields") committed by Ukrainian forces . Here is the initial version of this section . Well, according to the most recent sources , these people have been killed by Russian forces, but there are "both sides to blame". But even if "there are two sides to blame", this is not how Gitz666 frames this issue. He frames it as war crime exclusively by Ukrainian forces . Actually, no RS say it was a "war crime" committed exclusively by Ukrainian forces.
8. , - removal of well sourced info about torture and killing of Ukrainian POWs with improper justification in edit summary.
9. ,,,, - edit warring to include section on Missile attack in Donetsk as a war crime where "Russia and Ukraine blamed each other for the strike". Well, the best and most recent RS on this subject was article in WaPo entitled " Inside "Russia’s propaganda bubble: Where a war isn’t a war". It tells that according to Ruslan Leviev, a leader and founder of Conflict Intelligence Team, an independent fact checking organization, all "photos from the incident suggest the missile flew from Russian-controlled territory and was not intercepted ". Meaning, that was a false flag attack by Russian forces.
10. removal of sourced info that Denisova shared her database with reports by victims with other government officials and prosecutors. This is a misrepresentation by Gitz6666. No, the in-line reference used to support the statement (an article in NYT) does say that she shared her database with other government officials . On the other hand, the article in Ukrainian Pravda discussed on talk does not say she did not share her database with any other Ukrainian officials.

additional explanations for several diffs

Diff #1. While the intention of Gitz could indeed be a replacement and "softening" the text (he removed "The parents of some of these children were killed by Russian military" and assigned all claims exclusively to opinion by Zelensky), he also clearly explained the purpose of his edit in edit summary: No allegation of war crime here - drafting a law, possibly violating the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child do not amount to war crimes, or at least no RS say so. This is a blatant misrepresentation of the in-line source used in the diff because it says: "By doing so, the Kremlin violates Articles 7 and 21 of the Convention on the Right of the Child (UN) and Article 49 of the Geneva Convention on the Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflicts." Article 49 of the Geneva Convention. Violating it is a war crime by definition.

- Gitz6666 continue misinterpreting things on this noticeboard. Yes, of course, the source tells about forceful deportations (some sources say "kidnappings") of children as a war crime, not about legitimate adoptions. But the text removed by Gitz6666 and referenced to this source is also not about legitimate adoptions ("Russian authorities have also kidnapped more than 121,000 Ukrainian children" and so on). My very best wishes (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Diffs #2. No, that was not about Denisova, since Gitz also removes other content. In the first diff of this series he removes an independent claim by British ambassador to the United Nations Barbara Woodward. In 3rd and 4th diffs he removes "reports ... compiled by independent Ukrainian journalists and published by the Ukrainian parliament". My very best wishes (talk) 01:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Diff #7. Based on their response , Gitz6666 insists that the killing of elderly patients by Russian forces should be described as a war crime committed by Ukrainian forces. This is a misinterpretation because "The report by the UN’s Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights doesn’t conclude the Ukrainian soldiers or the Moscow-backed separatist fighters committed a war crime." (does NOT conclude), hence this content arguably does not belong to the page, but in any case is not a war crime by Ukrainian forces. My very best wishes (talk) 18:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

User is aware as noted at the top of their talk page:

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I am reporting this because some other contributors suggested that the matter could be considered at WP:AE . Gitz6666 has 2,000+ edits mostly related to war crimes in Ukraine. I think diffs above are enough to establish the pattern, but there are more his recent edits of same nature: , ,,,,.

• I am sorry for bringing this complaint (I strike through 3 diffs above to reduce the volume), but I think Gitz6666 is the most elaborate and persistent POV-pusher in this area, and he continue doing the same even during this request ,. This is related to diff #10 above. Here are my comments on talk ,,, and reply by Gitz6666 . This is an example of discussing something with Gitz6666.

• Git6666 provided examples of his allegedly neutral edits. Each of them should be checked carefully in context. For example, Gitz6666 provides this diff ("correcting a gross misrepresentation in the lead section of 2014 Odessa clashes") as the best proof of his unbiased editing. The correction was: "a pro-Maidan mob attacked anti-Maidan activists" -> "a pro-Maidan demonstration was attacked by anti-Maidan activists". Yes, but Gitz6666 also made this edit meaning that, no, these guys were actually not anti-Maidan activists, but agents-provocateurs presumably dispatched by pro-Maidan forces. My very best wishes (talk) 20:23, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• The campaign by Gitz6666 to exclude all statements attributed by RS to Denisova (see Elinruby below). Yes, that was discussed on RSNB, and I think it boils down to this: . My very best wishes (talk) 14:57, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

• My conclusion that Gitz6666 is a relentless POV-pusher on "pro-Russian" side is by no means exceptional. Six other contributors came to the same conclusion during recent ANI discussion: . My very best wishes (talk) 11:13, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

User notified . My very best wishes (talk) 04:09, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Gitz6666

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gitz6666

Without entering into details (diff by diff reply to MVBW is in my sandbox), I want to address MVBW's general allegation:

the most elaborate POV-pusher in this subject area

which sounds almost as a compliment, but it's false. I'm not a POV-pusher for the Russian side. I believe that the Russian army is committing hideous war crimes in Ukraine and I'd very much welcome the perpetrators being brought to account before a court of law. Admittedly most of my edits are related to war crimes in Ukraine - I wrote nearly 1/3 of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, which means that I've spent dozens of hours documenting war crimes committed by the Russian army. I provided no less than 30 diffs documenting Russian war crimes in this discussion at ANI, which I opened on 22 June, and from 22 June to 15 July, I counted at least 17 more edits adding contents and sources about Russian war crimes. A small selection includes (Mariupol theatre), (killing of a 13-year-old girl), (number of killed children in the lead section), (shooting on passing civilian cars), (bodies in the Kyiv region), (lead of 2014 Odessa clashes); many more can be found in my sandbox.

I don't edit War crimes in Ukraine for including a pro-Russian POV. I truly believe that building an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and committed to neutrality is an excellent effort in a time of war: it promotes knowledge, understanding, sympathy for the victims and accountability for the perpetrators. Plus, I literally don't give a damn about the Ukrainian/Russian divide, I see only victims and perpetrators. To put it differently: this is not my war. If it were, I wouldn't be editing there.

As I'm not a pro-Russian POV-pusher, why is MVBW reporting me here? The reason is that I've constantly opposed the attempt by MVBW and Volunteer Marek (VM) to "weaponise" war crimes allegations, which means using them (and using Misplaced Pages as well) as tools of warfare, by grossly exaggerating and misrepresenting war crimes so as to achieve a political goal (which goal? do they really believe that it is in the interest of the Ukrainian people to have their sufferings magnified and overstressed to the point they become implausible?). By opposing their attempt to weaponise war crimes I've tried to keep the bar of verifiability at the same level as our reliable sources. Misplaced Pages is as authoritative as its sources, and it's of the utmost importance that we refrain from amplifying questionable sources such as Denisova's allegations on child rape (, discussion 1, 2 and 3) and the intercepted phone calls circulated by the Ukrainian army (, and discussion). Moreover, Misplaced Pages is committed to neutrality, which means that we cannot sweep allegations of Ukrainian war crimes under the carpet. Each and every time someone publishes contents about Ukrainian war crimes, MVBW and VM immediately revert. For that reason I've been mostly (but not exclusively) arguing in the talk page from what superficially might seem a pro-Russian perspective; had I encountered an equally fierce couple of pro-Russian POV-pushers, I would have argued from an apparent anti-Russian perspective.

I agree with PaulT2022's statement here below mentioning WP:GRATUITOUS and WP:RSBREAKING; on many occasions also WP:RECENT, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EXCEPTIONAL were relevant at War crimes in Ukraine. However, while in general it is true that strongly held beliefs of editors on both sides result in different interpretation of the sources, this case is different: the situation is not symmetrical. On the one side, there's an editor who is a "true believer", meaning that I fully subscribe to WP:5P2, try to be as detached and objective as possible, and avoid doing politics through Misplaced Pages; on the other side, there are MVBW and VM.

At the very beginning of this discussion I asked MVBW if they had ever made one edit or one comment mitigating the responsibilities of the Russian army or documenting allegations of Ukrainian war crimes (). MVBW replied in my talk page and the answer was "No": they've never ever made a substantial edit or comment that couldn't be interpreted as anti-Russian POV-pushing. MVBW has made 95 edits to War crimes in Ukraine (4.35% of the total edits) and 219 edits to the talk page (10.66% of the total), and none of them can be quoted to show that they have tried, at least occasionally, to write from a neutral point of view. They are a crystal-clear case of sealioning and nationalist editing.

And they are also a crystal-clear case of WP:DISRUPTIVE. MVBW is only at number 41 in terms of authorship and has added a meagre 766 characters to the article (0.3% of the text). The mismatch between number of edits and contribution to the text depends on the fact that almost all of MVBW's edits are reverts and edit warring, as anyone can see . They're not really engaged in building an encyclopedia, they have other stuff to do here. At the beginning I tried to address their constant edit warring in a polite and friendly way , then in a harsher and more direct way , then I simply gave up and tried to block their disruption by repeatedly reverting them (although I have never violated, as far as I know, the 3RR).

Tendentiousness and edit warring are not at all new to MVBW. I understand that until 30 April 2015 they were called User:Biophys, had a nice record at AE (e.g. ) and were also part of a group of editors who coordinated off-wiki to approach the articles about the Soviet Union and former Soviet Republics with battlefield mentality and edit warring .

I'd like AE to throw the most astounding and powerful WP:BOOMERANG against this impenitent and disruptive POV-pusher who has wasted my time and other editors' time for way too long. And the same should be done with Volunteer Marek, as the two editors work in tandem and VM has been unashamedly WP:CANVASSing here below . As I've done my best at War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, I hope that the closure will restore my good standing in the community and compensate me for the stress MVBW and VM subjected me to.

Comments, questions

@Seraphimblade My statement (here above) is now 1068 words long and contains 19 diffs and various links. Plus I've created a sandbox (not yet finished) where I intend to reply to MVBW in detail. As I'm new to AE discussions, could you please tell me if this is acceptable? Note that MVBW has so far published over 1000 words of request + additional explanations + additional comments (not counting stricken-through text) and Volunteer Marek has published 839 words. I'd appreciate if I were allowed to significantly exceed the 500 words limit in these circumstances. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:20, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade: could you please tell me if there's any reason why I shouldn't notify this request for enforcement to the talk page of War crimes during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? All the allegations by MVBW concern my editing there, and the editors who are active on that article might be interested in making a statement. I myself am quite curious about what they think about this matter. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:52, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by (Alex Bakharev)

The article is on my Watchlist. As far as I can see it Glitz is a productive user and certainly not a pusher for the pro-Putin point of view. He is trying to weed the article out of questionable facts. Like for example Lyudmyla Denisova, the Ukrainian ombudsmen until 31 May 2022 was dismissed from her position for "making gratuitously detailed and unverified statements about sexual crimes allegedly committed by Russian soldiers" that makes any claims about those "sexual crimes" that are sourced to her to be unreliable even if reported by reliable sources before 31 May. There was a discussion Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Denisova's_declarations_on_child_rape about the matter and the apparent consensus was to remove this information. Similarly some allegations that appear in the fog of war may later be not proven or they can be used by both sides to accuse each other. I think it is important that we keep the balance and only include as fact the information that is proven, mark as "alleged" or "reportedly" the info that is not proven but highly probable and do not include the information that is most probably not true or is misinterpreted. I think Glitz is doing good job trying to achieve those goals. Maybe he is overzealous sometimes. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:39, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

While the Denisova stuff is debatable, I think there are at least two clear cut violations in the above diffs provided by MVBW. First problem is that Gitz6666 is using Denisova as an excuse to remove OTHER sources. Basically if Denisova said it, he’s removing it EVEN IF other, independent sources say the same thing. You can see that in this diff (in #2 above), where he removes text starting with “The existence of credible allegations…” which is cited to CBS news not Denisova. There’s other instances of this kind of WP:TENDENTIOUS WP:GAME editing.

2nd big problem is #7. Somehow “Russians shelled a home for the elderly” gets turned into “Ukrainians used elderly as human shields”. EVEN IF some sources speculate on presence of Ukrainian forces near the elderly home, NONE of them state that Ukrainians used these elderly as “human shields”. That’s original research at best and a gross misrepresentation of sources at worst.

I haven’t looked into all the diffs provided above so this is a non-exhaustive summary of potential problems here. Volunteer Marek 18:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what the hey is this: Gitz6666 says/claims do they (MVBW and others) think that NATO will enter the war because Misplaced Pages reports that the mother of a Russian soldier gets sexually aroused when her son describes to her the way he tortures Ukrainians?. Where and when did "Misplaced Pages report that the mother of a Russian soldier got sexually aroused" by... well, anything??? This is the diff Gitz6666 gives. That's not what it says at all. In fact there's nothing in there about "sexual arousal". Of anyone.

If Gitz6666 is going to accuse other editors of hyperbole perhaps they shouldn't engage in it themselves? Volunteer Marek 21:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry Gitz6666 but you're being disingenuous. You quote text from the Mirror which was never used in Misplaced Pages. Likewise NO ONE ever tried to put into Misplaced Pages that the mother was "sexually aroused" - but you are pretending that someone did. NO ONE even PROPOSED that such text be added. Certainly not in the discussion you link. But you are pretending that someone did. The actual text that you were trying to remove was much milder and supported by reliable sources (NPR etc). So again, you're trying to pull a switcheroo here - claiming that people want to include one piece of text (which they don't) and using that as a false excuse to try and remove text which says something different.

In that light, perhaps it's worthwhile to look at this ANI discussion which dealt with the same kind of problematic approach to editing these articles. Some comments from uninvolved users from that discussion:

• I will not be surprised if this report (by Gitz6666) ends up in a WP:BOOMERANG - User:GizzyCatBella
• I'm definitely concerned by Gitz's clear attempt to slide in content with weasel word caveats while sliding out reliably sourced content in Wikivoice - User:Iskandar323. This report here shows that you're still trying to do the exact same thing.
• I am of the general opinion that that Gitz6666 is POV-pushing problematically here and I note they have had an ARBEE alert in April - User:Black Kite who is the one suggested taking this to WP:AE
• Gitz purpose (in this area) is to edit in and promote Russian propaganda and excuse/deny war crimes, that is clear from their editing. Just broadly topic ban them from the Russian invasion of Ukraine - User:Only in death
• on the article about war crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of the Ukraine, to the extent he pushed anything, it was *back* on Gitz6666’s extremely consistent advocacy of a Russian narrative on every single detail, minimization of sexual misconduct, and attempts to include vague Russian allegations of Ukrainian misconduct. Gitz is aware that he does (this) by User:Elinruby
• Selective application of standards is a persistent issue with Gitz and Gitz (and another user) routinely ignore talk page discussions when editing, claim their edits are not disputed while there are talk page threads actively disputing their edits - User:Shadybabs (arguably involved)

This report here shows that you didn't take ANY of these multiple users' comments into consideration. Volunteer Marek 04:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Gitz6666 - what are you talking about here? MVBW, for no reasons apart their ideological zeal and party loyalty, has harassed one of the most active, scrupulous and useful contributors to War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine? Are you referring to yourself in such high and lofty terms? Really?

Anyway, the escalating personal attacks coming from Gitz6666 in the course of this report clearly show that there is indeed a WP:BATTLEGROUND problem here as well as just completely inability to "read the room" (this was already evident in his ANI report, where even after half dozen uninvolved editors told him "no, Gitz6666, the problem is actually with YOUR edits" they still went around insisting that the ANI discussion "supported" him (yes, he does same kind of thing in talk page discussions - claiming non existent consensus). Volunteer Marek 01:46, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by PaulT2022

I was not involved as an editor, however as a reader I think the article in question would benefit from more rigorous application of WP:GRATUITOUS and WP:RSBREAKING. See also opinions of User:Cinderella157 and User:Masem expressed in the related ANI discussion referenced by VM above.

It appears that strongly held beliefs of editors on both sides result in different interpretation of the sources. For example, in the allegation No.9, investigator Ruslan Leviev says in the referenced interview (1:25) that CIT estimates that there's a 70% likelihood that the rocket was launched from the Russian side, and up to 30% chance that it was intercepted as claimed by DPR. This is interpreted as a statement of a proven fact by one editor, and as a 50-50 chance by another.

Life experiences and beliefs of editors would inevitably affect interpretation of the sources and it would be unfortunate if content discussions, much needed in this situation, would be constrained by the threat of sanctions from mutual accusations of POV pushing. --PaulT2022 (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC), clarified last sentence PaulT2022 (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Elinruby

I was still processing the fact that Gitz6666 (talk · contribs) doubled down on his sniggering smear at WP:RSN of Denisova as “not reliable” at (13:36, 8 July 2022), when I realized that he had tripled down on it after his 04:08 July 18 notification of this complaint, which he received quite acrimoniously, btw. Despite saying that he was traveling but would try to find the time to answer he managed to explain kindly to me that Denisova’s statements were “not informative” and “alas, unreliable” (08:45 July 19), adding that she should be ignored for the good of Ukraine: “one finds out the 25 girls held in a basement in Bucha is a fake (if it is a fake) and one starts wondering if the Bucha massacre has ever happened.” (09:51 July 19) This was in answer to my warning to Boynamedsue that such remarks were BLP violations and potentially libelous (09:38 July 18) Denisova was fired for what the government considered cause, but that cause notably did not include assertions that she was “unreliable” — this is inaccurate and derogatory and exactly the sort of impugning of her integrity that BLP is supposed to prevent. Elinruby (talk) 23:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

(Somewhat later)

I think the ANI thread MVBW and VM linked to above is an excellent example of Gitz’ utter conviction of his correctness; in it I also link to the *previous* RSN thread about Denisova and in addition tell him (19:33, 27 June 2022 and following) that in the lede to an article he had badly misrepresented a source. I wrote it off at the time to the perils of machine translation, but it remains uncorrected he is still reinserting it. Elinruby (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

in answer

• @Gitz6666: I am here because you doubled down at RSN. (You really don’t listen, do you?) Nor am I buds with VM, at all, but he quoted me accurately and I stand by the statement. And I dunno, if somebody told me I had misrepresented a source, I’d be trying to address that, personally. Elinruby (talk) 17:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Gitz6666: I answered you at the talk page. This is also extensively discussed in the ANI thread. I suppose I can get you a diff but it isn’t like the article has a lot of history. Elinruby (talk) 18:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Gitz6666: Good, you found the thread where I discuss cognates, and as I just did *again* at the talk page, note the fact that “vérifier” means “to check”, not “to verify”. Levivich (talk · contribs) called your edit an “overstatement”. I call it wrong, kinda like “made unverified statements” does not equal “alas, unreliable”. I have explained extensively and provided links and diffs; I have probably reached my word limit and will not reply further to you here. It’s just a shame we had to be at AE before you could could hear me. Elinruby (talk) 22:44, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by AdrianHObradors

I haven't been involved on Eastern Europe articles for a while, but I believe that limiting Gitz6666 from editing there would be a big mistake. It is a very difficult subject to keep with a NPOV right now, yet he has been able to maintain some pages reasonably neutral. Of course, when almost everyone, and even a lot of the press, has an (understandable) bias, trying to keep things NPOV can seem as if the person enforcing it has on its own a bias, and it isn't hard to cherry pick some and try to portrait someone as biased. NPOVing those articles is a hard task, which Gitz6666 has been performing diligently. I want to mention that both VolunteerMarek and MVBW do show a bias on their edits, (MVBW himself has expressed his believe that he probably is not able to edit with a neutral point of view on this subject here), and Volunteer Marek's edits sometimes border the unconstructive. Gitz6666 however helps keep an equilibrium, and I believe it would be for the worst to enforce any kind of sanction against Gitz6666. --AdrianHObradors (talk) 08:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

This has transformed from an arbitration enforcement request to an arbitration case request, mostly because no admin has shown any interest in it before it quintupled in size. Well one did, to say it was too large. I think it has gotten larger since. nableezy - 15:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Pravega

There was no need to file this report. Apart from edit warring which happened from all sides, everything else looks like a content dispute.

I also agree with other editors that Gitz6666 is the best editor in this entire dispute. I recommend closing with no action.❯❯❯Pravega 05:18, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Gitz6666

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Gitz6666, statements are limited to 500 words. Yours is currently more than four times that amount. Please do some substantial trimming. Seraphimblade 10:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

  I'm generally sympathetic to requests from the parties to a request to have some additional words, so I'll grant both the filer and the respondent an extension to whatever they're currently at, but stop there please. AE is not for long walls of text or lengthy back and forth conversations, nor discussion of what articles should or should not say; that's not decided here. Volunteer Marek, you are not a party to the filing; trim back to 500 please. Seraphimblade 07:27, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Philip Cross

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Philip Cross

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Philip Cross (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:NEWBLPBAN

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 05:33, 18 July 2022 (UTC): violation of WP:BLPRESTORE and WP:BLPSPS, straight revert of what was a good faith claimed BLP violation (discussed here)
2. 14:27, 14 July 2022 (UTC): violation of WP:BLPRESTORE, straight revert of a claimed in good faith as a BLP violation without affirmative consensus

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Relevant block related to editing on anti-Zionists/anti-Zionism in the area of his British politics ban

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Notified of BLP DS 15:35, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I requested the user self-revert the blatant WP:BLPRESTORE violation, the user declined. The Jerusalem Post blogging platform is open to all, here is the application, and WP:BLPSPS is clear that only blogs that are subject to the editorial control of the newspaper may be considered for use. Regardless, there had been no attempt to engage in generating a consensus as is required by WP:BLPRESTORE. Additionally, Philip's editing of this article raises serious concerns that stretch back years. For example, he, in 2020, removed material about the SPLC apologizing to Khalek with the false claim that the material was located elsewhere. Nowhere else was that in the article. Taken as a whole, his editing at this page show a clear attempt to amplify any negative coverage and diminish any positive coverage. But even without that history, these two edits are blatant violations of WP:BLPRESTORE, the second following a DS alert, and a refusal to self-revert. Should result in a BLP ban.

And somebody should revert the violation, I just dont want to end up at XRV and do it myself. nableezy - 06:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Aquillion I think that misses the point. It simply does not matter if it is actually UNDUE or if it is actually a BLP violation for our purposes. This is not that discussion. What is relevant here is that WP:BLPRESTORE requires consensus for the reinsertion of material that has been claimed to be, in good faith, a BLP violation. If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. Must be obtained first. Twice now Philip has re-reverted what have been called BLP violations without so much as a token attempt at gaining consensus. And then refused to self-revert, despite policy demanding consensus for his restoration. There is no affirmative consensus for the reverts, and as such Philip Cross has violated WP:BLP multiple times, unrepentantly at that. An editor that refuses to abide by WP:BLP should be banned from editing BLPs, full stop. He still has not self-reverted the blatant BLP violation. Also, if admins are waiting on PC before doing anything here, I would say that is a waste of time. Philip Cross has simply refused to engage in reports, see for example phis only edit to the ANI report on a past topic ban violation. He made no comment in the ANI thread. Its as if waiting out the report is the strategy, and it should not be allowed to continue. nableezy - 13:55, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Philip has been editing since this report was filed, yesterday and today, and as he apparently voluntarily declines to participate here this should actioned without regard for his absence. nableezy - 14:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

My very best wishes multiple violations of WP:BLPRESTORE, from an editor sanctioned by ArbCom for violations of the BLP policy in another topic (Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/BLP issues on British politics articles) is not much ado about nothing. The content here is entirely irrelevant, and that is seemingly a purposeful attempt to distract from the issue. Philip Cross violated WP:BLPRESTORE twice within a few days, and refused to self-revert both times. That he has previously been found to be disruptively editing BLPs of those whose politics he opposes should lead to a full BLP ban at this point, and it is not much ado about nothing. If somebody wants to prove that Levivich had options besides edit-warring out BLP issues then here is your chance. nableezy - 16:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Im at a loss as to how anybody is missing the BLP violation here. The BLP violation is restoring an edit without modification that was removed as a BLP violation without consensus. It doesnt matter if it was sourced to the word of God Himself, if something is removed with a good faith claim of a BLP violation then it is a straightforward violation of WP:BLPRESTORE to simply re-revert that material back in to the article without an affirmative consensus for it. Both of those edits are BLP violations, and it is a modus operandi for Philip. So is the longstanding editing practice of attempting to fill in to BLPs of people he dislikes any negative material one can find on the internet sourced to whatever marginal or straight up unreliable source he can find, and then basically refusing to discuss it. I am at a loss as to how this straightforward BLP violation in an article on somebody whose politics he dislikes, by an editor restricted from editing other BLPs of those whose politics he dislikes, is basically being ignored. nableezy - 20:43, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Philip Cross

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Philip Cross

Statement by Cullen 328

That blog post by Petra Marquardt-Bigman is a highly opinionated piece that shows no evidence of editorial control or review or fact checking. It is a diatribe and a screed, not journalism. It is so flagrantly biased that I cannot see how it can possibly used in a biography of a living person. Cullen328 (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Aquillion

Oh, good lord, is this the same dispute as the Volunteer Marek request above? Anyway, the answer is similar; the older diff is not the sort of clear-cut BLP violation that would justify sanctions for restoring it once - it's "this person has been described as X" citing a number of sources to reasonably high-quality non-SPS opinion pieces describing them that way. It's probably WP:UNDUE but not something so shocking that you can get people sanctioned simply for restoring it a single time. The newer diff is somewhat more serious - it is definitely inadequately sourced per WP:NEWSBLOG; even if the author is an expert (as Philip Cross has said), that doesn't solve the issue because the subject-matter expert exemption is for WP:SPSes and we cannot use a SPS, even an expert, for BLP-sensitive statements per WP:BLPSPS. (The particular problem is that, as I understand it, The Jerusalem Post's blogs are not subject to their editorial control, as BLPSPS requires.) But adding it once, and failing to realize that a sufficiently low-quality newsblog is effectively a WP:SPS, is an incredibly easy mistake to make - even very experienced editors make the same mistake with WP:FORBESCON, which is similar. Making that mistake once is not sufficient reason to ask for sanctions. --Aquillion (talk) 10:16, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes

Yes, this source should not be used by Philip Cross, and he should not be reverting. But ( striking this through per comment by Mhawk10 below). This was hardly anything significant in terms of content. The cited source supports the following text : In an address at Berkeley in April 2015, Khalek said Israel was responsible for exporting military technology intended for repressing minorities having tested it in Gaza. OK. Looking at the next sourced/undisputed phrase, it says She compared Israel to ISIS asserting they "have shared values". There is no question the subject is strongly anti-Israel, and yes, sure, Israel imports and exports military technology. This is much ado about nothing, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 15:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by LittleChongsto

I agree that Philip Cross has shown a repeated pattern of biased and bad faith edits in various BLPs over many years. I honestly find it very surprising that they're still allowed to edit BLPs at all, but I am relatively new to the Wikipedian community. I disagree with Aquillion that this edit was a mistake, given the long history of similar edits to other journalists and political figures.

Statement by Mhawk10

The J-Post piece is an example of why we have WP:NEWSBLOG, but my reading of that very same guideline distinguishes NEWSBLOGs from WP:SPS at least at first glance (it instructs people to look at the SPS section for personal blogs and group blogs, but does not give that instruction for newsblogs). That does not mean that reverting the source and content back was a good idea (I think basically everyone here agrees about that and that the source was not-so-reliable), nor that we should treat JPost blogs as anything other than SPS, but I don't see it as the sort of bright line BLP violation that's worthy of any block or ban based off how the guideline is written. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 05:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm seeing that an editor above struck through their comments about the appropriateness of the source. Let me reiterate: I don't think the source should be used in the article for a source of contentious facts. The point of my comment is that WP:NEWSBLOG and WP:SPS are treated as distinct by our current guidelines and there isn't a clear policy prohibition on using NEWSBLOGs in BLPs. After all, there's even a difference in how WP:RSP treats The Guardian's newsblogs (WP:MREL) and Forbes's contributor blogs (WP:GUNREL). Maybe this is for a good reason, maybe it's not, but sanctioning editors on the basis of using what would appear to be a newspaper in a BLP based on the erroneous claim that doing so is always prohibited except for WP:ABOUTSELF seems imprudent and not narrowly tailored towards preventing disruption. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Some of the edits highlighted below by Vladimir.copic seem to be correcting obvious BLP violations (Paul Mason), (Nick Cohen), or correcting typographical errors (Extinction Rebellion), making copyedits that are unrelated to British politics (Jacek Rostowski), or making other edits not related to British politics (Patrick Minford), (Paul Joseph Watson), (Talk:Piers Morgan). I don't think that journalists are inherently within the scope of BritPol/AmPol and there's an general exception to topic bans for correcting obvious vandalism and flagrant BLP issues. That being said, there isn't exactly an exception to topic bans for correcting typos/doing copyediting other than WP:IAR. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 06:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Vladimir.copic

This is a slightly unrelated observation on this editor's recent editing. I note that Philip Cross is indefinitely banned from post-1978 British politics, broadly construed. In the past few weeks this editor has made edits to the following articles that are in the area of this ban (non-exhaustive example diffs below):

• British economist and Brexit advocate Patrick Minford
• environmental movement Extinction Rebellion established in the UK
• British political commentator Nick Cohen
• English journalist Piers Morgan
• British-Polish politician Jacek Rostowski
• British political journalist Paul Mason
• British far-right commentator Paul Joseph Watson

There is nothing wrong with these edits - some of them were needed - but nonetheless they are well within the area of the ban. I have a lot of respect for the work Philip Cross has done on jazz biography and would hate for the project to lose him due to these infringements on his ban (especially in light of last year's block for a topic ban violation). Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

@Mhawk10: As I said above, the edits themselves are not problematic but WP:BMB is pretty clear. The ban is broadly construed and I cannot imagine "post-1978 British politics, broadly construed" not including recently active British politicians and political journalists. Like I said this is not an exhaustive list of difs - PC has made over 20 edits to PJW's article just this year. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:26, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Result concerning Philip Cross

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

חוקרת

Mr Miles

Grandmaster

TheLastOfTheGiants

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning TheLastOfTheGiants

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:36, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

TheLastOfTheGiants (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBEE

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. It is clear that they push a nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POVs, while there is no WP:RS/AC on this matter. According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get doubted.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

• Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above. of 26 July 2022.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

For the same reasons as Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Cealicuca and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Iovaniorgovan, these are clear and strong precedents.

Why use WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV inline, while the whole section is clearly attributed to the Immigrationist theory?

I believe tgeorgescu believes the Immigrationist theory to be the academic consensus: what I have said above? I said "while there is no WP:RS/AC on this matter". This clearly refutes your belief about me.

The John Doe is the best baseball player argument: so? You were trying to fix the wrong section. You now argue that the other section needs fixing.

the statements that don't have reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view: and which are those statements? Do those statement clearly state "the consensus of scholars is..." or "the majority view is..."? I guess not. Wrong reading of WP:RS/AC. And if you mean that there is WP:RS/AC for continuity, that's a bogus consensus claim and its source should be dismissed as unreliable. "We, the people at Toilet Duck, recommend Toilet Duck".

I stand by my words: "Wrong reading of WP:RS/AC."

Anyway, I find your defense unconvincing: you're getting lost in the shifting sands of your own deeds and arguments. And, above all, I still did not hear the reason why you're in a different position than Cealicuca and Iovaniorgovan.

The facts: in that article there is continuity turf (i.e. a section), immigrationist turf, admigration turf, and neutral turf. On the continuity turf view there is stuff like With the colonists coming from many provinces and living side by side with the natives, Latin must have emerged as their common language. See? No inline WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, quite similarly to no inline attribution from some of the stuff from the immigrationist turf.

But see the rest of their edits: they are pushing a nationalistic POV. There are hardly exceptions from this rule. Maybe I was wrong that they are a Romanian nationalist, possibly they are a Vlach or Aromanian nationalist. Cealicuca also supported their pet theory. Or was that Iovaniorgovan? Hard for me to distinguish between the two, except that they sided with different theories. Anyway, all three of them use WP:WALLS.

About "nationalist": through your edits Hungarians always get the short end of the stick. Besides, statements including In 1875, the government of Prime Minister Tisza intensified the program of forced magyarization, closing Slovak and Romanian-language schools and limiting minority cultural activities are blatant copyright violations. It seems that the plagiarism scanner enjoys its summer holiday. Anyway, "nationalist" comes second, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Copyright Cleanup/Contributor surveys comes first.

Your lies are puerile at : (not copy-pasted, so no copyright violations). Revdel requested at . I was not the first saying it's copyvio: see . tgeorgescu (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning TheLastOfTheGiants

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by TheLastOfTheGiants

What are your arguments for this "clear pushing of a nationalistic POV" ? nor have I ever attempted the exclusion of all other POVs. You did not address any of my points, seems like an ad hominem without any substance.

To give context: It is a subject of dispute whether elements of the mixed Daco–Roman population survived in Transylvania through the post-classical era becoming the ancestors of modern Romanians, the Daco-Roman Continuity Theory mainly accepted in Romanian histography, or the first Vlachs/Romanians appeared in the area in the 13th century after a northward migration from the Balkan Peninsula, the Immigrationist theory mainly accepted in Hungarian histography. There is an ongoing scholarly debate over the ethnicity of Transylvania's population before the Hungarian conquest.

The page Origin of the Romanians addresses this debate. In this page, I added 2 new paragraphs in the Daco-Roman Continuity section. User Borsoka regarded some of the statements from this paragraph as dubious. Reading more from the page, I found some elements of the Immigrationist theory section that do not comply with NPOV, at least when compared to the Daco-Roman Continuity section.

For example:

In the Daco-Roman Continuity part, sentences are written as a personal POV, such as - "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop concludes that the relocation of hundreds of thousands of people across the Lower Danube in a short period was impossible, especially because the commoners were unwilling to "move to foreign places, where they had nothing of their own and where the lands were already occupied". The wording makes it clear that it's "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop" who believes that and not a general consensus (given that this is a debate, clearly there is no consensus to begin with). Naturally, supporters of the Immigrationist theory would disagree with this. Thus the sentence is not worded as an absolute fact.

In the Daco-Roman Continuity part, sentences are written as an absolute fact rahter than a personal POV. For example: "Immigrationist scholars emphasize that all other Romance languages developed in regions which had been under Roman rule for more than 500 years and nothing suggests that Romanian was an exception". This does not say "Historian Schramm believes that...." as its the case above with Ioan-Aurel Pop. It is worded as an absolute fact. However, just like many supporters of the Immigrationist theory would disagree with Ioan-Aurel Pop's assertion, many supporters of the Continuit theory disagree with Schramm's assertion that nothing suggests that Romanian was an exception. It is not the academic consensus. However, the wording makes it seem like it is the academic consensus violating NPOV.

Or for example: "Reliable sources refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube for the first time in the 1160s". Again, this is not the general consensus, many supporters of the Continuit theory disagree. Yet this is not written as a subjective POV. The list can go on but hopefully you understood the idea.

So I listed these as dubious/NPOV in order to discuss it with Borsoka on the talk page. And tgeorgescu was aware of this as I said "The tags have purpose, please see the talk page" in my last edit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Origin_of_the_Romanians#Addressing_the_dubious TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 08:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Clarification - neither the Daco-Roman Continuity theory nor the Immigrationist theory are the academic consensus. And neither is a fringe theory. I believe tgeorgescu believes the Immigrationist theory to be the academic consensus and the Daco-Roman Continuity a fringe theory. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 08:13, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to their reply: Because it's still misleading. Saying that "Reliable sources refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube for the first time in the 1160s" even if in the Immigrationist theory section, implies this is an absolute fact/general consensus, which is not the case. It is the equivalent of saying "John Doe is the best baseball player", instead of the most accurate "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre".

And also because the same standard is not applied for the Daco-Roman Continuity section: "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop concludes that the relocation of hundreds of thousands of people across the Lower Danube in a short period was impossible, especially because the commoners were unwilling to move to foreign places, where they had nothing of their own and where the lands were already occupied" is more akin to "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre" than "John Doe is the best baseball player". TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 08:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to "what I have said above?": You agree there is no WP:RS/AC on this matter ("A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources"), while reporting me for listing as dubious, the statements that don't have reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view, yet are not identified as individual opinions those of particular named sources. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 08:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to "so? You were trying to fix the wrong section": I trying to solve the statements I listed as dubious, you should know them because you reported me for them. I still don't understand why you reported me, essentially reporting me for violating WP:RS/AC while I was trying to enforce WP:RS/AC.

"Reply to "which are those statements?": How can you ask me "which are those statements?" when you literally reported me for them? Did you look at the statements you reported me for or saw some "dubious" added and concluded that "this must be nationalistic propaganda" and then reported me? I disagree with your premise that those statements have to specifically mention "the consensus of scholars is..." or "the majority view is..." in order to imply that they are the general consensus. WP:RS/AC clearly states that individual opinions should be identified as those of particular named sources. It doesn't say that "individual opinions should not be written as 'the consensus of scholars is' or 'the majority view is' ".

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/Piranha

The following sentence: "Piranhas belong to the subfamily Serrasalminae, which includes closely related omnivorous", does it gives the impression that is the general consensus or an individual opinion? TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 08:46, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Note to admins (I read the 2 previous cases, this is going to be a long comment, but also my last one on this report unless an admin specifically asks for more details) - I have looked at the "strong precendents" of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Cealicuca and Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive244#Iovaniorgovan, in both of these cases, the admin's argument seems to be that they lack the expertise to determine whether it's a good-faith content dispute or nationalist POV pushing and were only banned based on WP:SPA. I think this is a loophole that Tgeorgescu can easily abuse, by taking advantage of the "better safe than sorry" attitude.

Reading Iovaniorgovan's statements, he does not appear to have any nationalist POV, Ioan-Aurel Pop is indeed the mainstream Daco-Roman Continuity theory viewpoint: https://en.wikipedia.org/Ioan-Aurel_Pop - he is the elected President of the Romanian Academy, clearly not a fringe conspiracy theory.

Ironically, tgeorgescu actually wrote "Sandstein wrote I lack the topic-area knowledge to be able to determine whether this is merely a good-faith content dispute or nationalist POV pushing. However, I can look at Iovaniorgovan's contributions and determine that they are indeed a WP:SPA. Single-purpose accounts are almost always a bad sign, particularly in hotly contested topic areas. On that basis alone, I would topic-ban Iovaniorgovan from Origin of the Romanians until they have a track record of at least six months productive editing in some unrelated topic area. Since Cealicuca is a WP:SPA same applies to him." in this 2nd report. I suppose this time is trying to do the same thing for the 3rd time. This explains this instant report without any reaching out to me first. He knows it works and is counting on it.

Reading Cealicuca's statements, I don't know what the issue of the report was, since it's hardly talked about in the report. But Cealicuca makes some good points that were not taken into account - "My account is 6-7 months old. I wonder how many editors start basically on an article, only to later "expand" to other articles", "For example this is Borsoka's activity, with a majority of edits on the same article and an overwhelming majority of edits on the talk page. This, although his account is 10 years long (about 17 times more "time" than mine)". The point he's trying to make (not sure of the accuracy as I'd rather not read tons of activity, but is a fair argument in itself) is that Borsoka's account is equally WP:SPA. Similary to Iovaniorgovan's case, he was banned based on a "better safe than sorry" attitude although from the report pages alone (didn't check the talk pages, etc) they did not seem to promote a single nationalistic point.

Which is why I believe these "strong precendents" are actually bad precendents of loopholes that can be exploited by simply being older on Misplaced Pages.

I urge the admins to - please consider the possiblity, not the certainity, the possibility, that tgeorgescu may be heavily biased in favor of the immigrationist theory and consider any addition to the Daco-Roman Continuity theory he doesn't like as "Romanian nationalism". Whether this is done in good faith and he genuinely believes this is "Romanian nationalism" or in bad faith just to ban people he doesn't like is irrelevant, as the end result is the same. And to relax a bit the "better safe than sorry" attitute until the contrary is proven. I haven't done anything to make me seen as a nationalist or as a disrputive editor. Despite tgeorgescu's claim that "clear that they push a nationalistic POV to the exclusion of all other POVs", I hope you can see from my OP in this report that I was "pushing" for a discussion on the talk page about certain elements of the article specifically because it doesn't seem to comply with NPOV and WP:RS/AC, and I have never excluded any other POVs. I always pushed for having both POVs being presented.

I have never assumed bad intent in other Misplaced Pages users, merely different opinions, but this time I have a hard time not assuming bad faith from tgeorgescu, there are just too many things that add up: 1. He instantly reported me after just 1 revert, where I reverting back saying (paraphraisng) "not the case, look at the talk page for context". 2. He is essentially reporting me for violating WP:RS/AC while I was trying to enforce WP:RS/AC. 3. He reported me for the statements I deemed as dubious on the page, but from our conversation here he doesn't appear to know what were those statements (you think it's Romanian nationalism that I deemed those statements 'dubious' but at the same time don't know the statements you reported me for?!). 4. There is already a precendent of 2 other people in a similar situation (when I read those cases I was like "wow"), who were banned essentially because it's better to be safe than sorry, and tgeorgescu knows this, thus the instant report for dubious reasons. Again, don't take this as a certainity, only as a possibility, I'm not saying that's the case, I'm saying if that's the case you are essentially allowing the exploitation of a loophole where he can do this with anyone he doesn't like.

And to tgeorgescu - I don't know whether you are doing this in good faith or bad faith, maybe you genuinely believe that what you are doing is good and have no mean intent. In the hope that you are doing this in good faith, I urge you to consider the quote on your profile - "For the fanatic, the Devil is the intellectual, because the intellectual has doubts". Please, have doubts, be an intellectual. What if your middle-ground position is not actually a middle ground by heavily biased in favor of one or another? what would be the consequences of this? How do you know that is not the case? How can you be certain that you're not pushing for a non-neutral POV to the exclusion of all other POVs while trying to push against nationalistic POV without being aware of it? This is not an "I told you" or ad hoeminem or anything the like, merely something for you to personally consider if you are acting in good faith.

Back to the admins - I know you have no experience on the particular topic, but try to look for evidence of disruptive editing, war edditing, refusal to cooperate with other Wikipedians or refusal to follow Misplaced Pages's guidelines rather than looking for details about the subject (which you have no experience in) when it comes to determining whether I'm trying to push a nationalistic POV and exclude all other POV, or merely enforce NPOV and WP:RS/AC, which can be verified without knowledge of the topic.

I know this response is very long, but after reading the 2 "strong precendents", I went from "the reason for this report makes no sense" to "I have a strong chance of being banned".

A "gultiy until proven innocent" can lead to a lot of false positives. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

To simply the issue (so that is understandable for those who don't know the subject).

We have page (A) https://en.wikipedia.org/Piranha and page (B) https://en.wikipedia.org/Origin_of_the_Romanians

We have sentence (A) "Piranhas belong to the subfamily Serrasalminae, which includes closely related omnivorous" and sentence (B)"Reliable sources refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube for the first time in the 1160s".

Without knowing anything about either of those subjects, and looking at those sentences, can you determine which one is general consensus and which one is an individual opinion that is not part of the general consensus?

Answer: sentence (A) is general consensus, sentence (B) is an individual opinion that is not part of the general consensus.

(Not my personal opinion, the historians supporting the Daco-Roman Continuity theory supporters believe this, tgeorgescu doesn't seem to deny it either: as I wrote in the "dubious" part that I got reported for - "There are many historians who agree that the Primary Chronicle, Gesta Hungarorum, She Song of the Nibelungs and other mentions of "Vlachs" north of the Danube refer to the Romanians"; the Vlachs being another name for Romanians, and the 3 listed sources are those that refer to the Romanians' presence in the lands to the north of the Danube before 1160s, which historians such as Ioan-Aurel Pop and Dennis Deletant find reliable, this is not a fringe theory)

I listed them as "dubious" or "NPOV" in order to discuss them on the talk page. Which if you look at the talk page I did start a conversation there, before getting reported. All the sentences I listed as "dubious" or "NPOV" have this issue, with the contradictory opinion that makes them not general consensus listed in the added "dubious" or "NPOV".

Adding those "dubious" and "NPOV" where I drew attention that that is not the general consensus, are the reason I got reported, and may get banned for it. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 10:06, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Clarification, replying to "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get lost": I have never said such a thing, not sure where the "according to them" is from. In fact, I have never talked to tgeorgescu before. It's essentially dishonest, an outright lie. I'm not sure where he has that much "information" given that we never talked. If anything, it's only a projection of tgeorgescu's personal prejudice at best or intellectual dishonesty at worst, trying to make me look bad by putting words into my mouth and claiming I said something I never said. Normally, I shouldn't even say such a thing, since he has no evidence, no diff where I ever said such a thing, but I don't want my silence to be mistaken for agreement.

And (again, normally not having to say such a thing but for safety) I don't even believe the Daco-Roman Continuity theory is the right one. I do believe it's more likely than the immigrationist theory, but I believe the most likely theory about the origin of the Romanians is a version of the admigration theory, where the proto-Romanians mainly migrated south of the Danube in the 3rd-5th century only to return north of the Danube in the late 7th-8th century following the slavic invasion of the Balkans, after their arrival the slavs began to push the proto-romanians north the Danube. This theory explains all the gaps in the Daco-Roman Continuity and Immigrationist theories (early mentions of Vlachs north of the Danube, no settlements with names of Romanian origin recorded in the area, no Greek influence on the Romanian religious lexis, Gesta Hungarorum, the Primary Chroncile's mention that 'in Transylvania first were the slavs, than came the vlachs, and than came the hungarians', etc) that these theories simply dismiss or find alterantive explanations for. I could go on but that's not the point of this message. The point is, apparently, I'm such a ultra-nationalist who believes the WP:THETRUTH is Romanian nationalism that I don't even believe the Daco-Roman Continuity theory is the right one. And no, this version of the admigration theory had nothing to do with my edits, it wasn't even hinted at. And I'm not 100% certain, ultimately confident, this is the right one, about this one. I just find it the most likely to be true, the second being the Daco-Roman Continuity theory and the third the Immigrationist theory. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 11:07, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to "the facts", the facts: "Latin MUST HAVE emerged as their common language" implies doubt, it's a possibility. If the wording was a definitive "Latin HAS emerged as their common language" you would have had a point. Also, cherry-picking. 1st example: "supporters of the continuity theory rule out the possibility that masses of Latin-speaking commoners abandoned the province when the Roman troops and officials left it", so it's "supporters of the continuity theory" who rule it out. It's not "it's impossible that masses of Latin-speaking commoners abandoned the province when the Roman troops and officials left it" (as a general fact; general consensus). 2nd example: "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop concludes that the relocation of hundreds of thousands of people across the Lower Danube in a short period was impossible", so it's "Historian Ioan-Aurel Pop" who believes that, an individual opinion, this is very clear. 3rd example: "Historians who accept the continuity theory also argue that Roman sources do not mention that the Roman population". So it's "Historians who accept the continuity theory" who argue that. 4th example: "Most scholars accepting the continuity theory regard the archaeological evidence". So it's "Most scholars accepting the continuity theory" who believe that. The list can go on. See? a lot of inline. Very different to the no inline attribution from the immigrationist turf. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 11:18, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to "possibly they are a Vlach or Aromanian nationalist": I am genuinely confused, how did you go from "maybe not Romanian nationalist" to "possibly they are a Vlach or Aromanian nationalist" ? not sarcastic, really I see no connection, so I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Any why nationalist? why (even if assuming by absurd that you are correct about everything) do I have to be a nationalist? couldn't I be someone who is wrong but in good faith? TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 11:22, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to WP:WALLS - yes, writing WP:WALLS is a natural human reaction for when you are falsely accused and words are put into your mouth (see: Clarification, replying to "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism") out of intellectual dishonesty. I wouldn't have written walls if I didn't see that 2 other "strong precendents" of exploiting a loophole exist. Maybe the reason people keep "spamming" the "Origin of the Romanians" and then get banned based on a "better safe than sorry" attitude is because there is something wrong with the page? and gatekeeping from tgeorgescu? rather than "Romanian/Vlach/Aromanian nationalism". But at the same time, the longer the text the harder it is to understand, and I already made my point. If an admin reads only this last post, just read my OP & and the paragrapt starting with "To simply the issue (so that is understandable for those who don't know the subject)", that's a summary of the situation. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 11:40, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Reply to "About nationalist: through your edits Hungarians always get the short end of the stick." - I see, that's the reason. Well, if you accept my premise that there is no inline attribution from the immigrationist turf; however, there is inline attribution from the immigrationist turf, violating WP:RS/AC, the Romanians already get the short end of the stick. Through my edits, what you see as Hungarians getting the short end of the stick, is merely applying the same standard to both turf, thus enforcing WP:NPOV. You mentioned on your profile that "I do not know a lot about the history of Romania and I do not pretend to know a lot about it". The devil is in the details, it's not about "that the page is changed" it's about "what is changed in the page". TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 11:53, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

The "In 1875, the government of Prime Minister Tisza intensified the program of forced magyarization, closing Slovak and Romanian-language schools and limiting minority cultural activities" is paraphrased (not copy-pasted, so no copyright violations) from a book written by historian Geoffrey Wawro in 2014.

From his Misplaced Pages page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Geoffrey_Wawro he is American (so not Romanian nationalism) hosted the History Channel's book show Hardcover History, and was host and anchor of the History Channel programs History's Business and History vs. Hollywood, Hard Target, Global View, and History in Focus. His guests have included Jimmy Carter, Henry Kissinger, Jack Welch, Robert Rubin, Caspar Weinberger, Warren Christopher, Niall Ferguson, Richard Overy, Stephen Ambrose, Michael Howard, Robert Dallek, Paul Theroux and Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. Isan expert on military innovation and international security in Europe, the U.S., and Canada, was also (before his move to Texas) Professor of Strategic Studies at the U.S. Naval War College as well as the Naval War College Review's "special correspondent," a designation that took him to "places or events of strategic or technological interest," including Iran, Brazil and the Paris Air Show. Won the Austrian Cultural Institute Prize and the Society for Military History Moncado Prize for Excellence in the Writing of Military History. From 1989 to 1991, he was Fulbright Scholar at University of Vienna, Austria, and from 1991 to 1992, an Andrew W. Mellon Doctoral Fellow at Yale University

Is there anything that would make his words unreliable? It's not about being pro-Hungarian or anti-Hungarian, it's about being WP:TRUTH, "verifiability, not truth". Writing bad things about the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not "Western Propagnada" or "Russophobia" if that's what actually happened and they have been published previously by a reliable source. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 12:04, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I see, so I forgot to paraphrase that part when writing that paragraph. Thank you for notifying me to change it and not report me while calling me a "literally thief" ]. Do you genuinely not notice your own cherry-picking? Both here and in (Reply to "the facts", the facts) ? This is why I have a hard time thinking you are arguing in good faith, at this point you are simply bullying me. Will paraphrase that sentence to avoid copyright. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 12:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

"Your lies are puerile" - the man who literally said "According to them there is WP:THETRUTH of Romanian nationalism, and all WP:SCHOLARSHIP to the contrary should get doubted" despite me never saying such a thing, not even remotely. My "lie", was because I thought you were refering to a different book, since you didn't specify it. Your lie was purely out of intellectual dishonesty. TheLastOfTheGiants (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning TheLastOfTheGiants

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Iskandar323

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Iskandar323

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Fad Ariff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:03, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Iskandar323 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Iskandar323 gaslights and misuses policy to POV-push seemingly WP:OR / WP:SYNTH content in the article. The sources in the article don’t support:

1) That the logo in the infobox belongs to this group.

2) That the group was "Left-wing".

3) That its colourcode was "red".

4) That its religion was "Islam".

5) That Parviz Yaghoubi was "a veteran member of the MEK since 1968".

6) That the group was "homonymous" with the PMOI.

7) That People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran – Followers of Musa's Way was a "prominent" group (the opposite seems to be the case).

See article talk page where I raised many of these points but Iskandar323 has mostly deflected.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

Not that I am aware

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

1. (15:01, 31 May 2022 ) Another recent AE report showing Iskandar323 POV-pushing, deflecting, and mischaracterising sources in this topic.
2. (12:24, 27 May 2022) Iskandar323 posting this notification in another article
3. (04:59, 18 February 2022) An editor explaining sanctions notification to Iskandar323
4. (12:02, 20 May 2022) Iranian politics general sanctions notification in Iskandar323’s talk page

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Iskandar323

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Iskandar323

A frivolous AE filing about content not discretionary sanctions violations that should boomerang. It is worth noting that Fad Ariff recently raised three AE cases against different editors in 24 hours: , and - making clear that they do not appreciate the limited resources available at AE. On the contrary, as I raised at a previous AE case that was ultimately never resolved, Fad Ariff has been guilty of fairly wholesale DS violations, including several breaches of WP:1RR, alongside further evidence of WP:1RR gaming. I would also note Fad Ariff's use of the adversarial language about 'gaslighting' and 'deflection' is all fairly battleground. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Not the DS notice specific to the PMOI and related to Syrian Civil War and ISIL, but the more general post-1978 Iranian sanctions one, yes. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Ah, actually, now that you mention it - I do see that the PMOI page template is subtly different from the standard one: something I had not realised. I had thought the PMOI notice WAS the standard one, and had assumed that all of that material was contained in the standard template. I now see that the part at the very end in bold is an additional note. That's my bad. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:23, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Fixed the talk page notice already: here. I'll definitely always go straight to the source for the talk page templates in future. I had thought the consensus requirement applied across IRANPOL pages, just like the 1RR rule across ARBPIA pages, which I'm more familiar with. I hadn't realised other conflict areas had page-specific template tweaks. Lesson learned. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:44, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@חוקרת: Adding a DS talk page notice is not an admin action - it is merely a public notice to inform editors that certain sanctions are in effect - but thank you for your concern. It is also irrelevant to this case, since Fad Ariff has long been active in post-1978 Iranian politics and is fully aware of what sanctions apply - based both on recent alerts on their talk page and recent activity at AE. Unrelated. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:48, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Fad Ariff is already more than fully aware of the post-1978 Iranian politics DS from editing the main page in the conflict area: People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:57, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Firefangledfeathers

Even assuming Fad Ariff is correct about everything in their filing and that all of the parts of Iskandar323's one edit to the article were mistaken, this is still not a matter that needs any sanctions. Iskandar323's clear motivation was to preserve content, including plausibly reliable sources, during an AfD discussion. I haven't looked into Fad Ariff's conduct enough to have an opinion on a boomerang sanction, but I urge a warning, at the least, to ensure that this is their last frivolous filing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:45, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Iskandar323, have you perhaps been copying the DS notice from Talk:People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran to other IRANPOL pages? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:18, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Iskandar323, I'm glad to see you realizing your mistake. As Researcher indicates below, this also means you were incorrect in suggesting that your revert was justified by the consensus required restriction. Unlike ARBPIA, there's no restriction (like 1RR or CR) automatically applied to articles in the IRANPOL topic area. Fixing up the notice at any pages where you added it and acknowledging the mistake are the only things I feel are needed from you here. My points about this AE filing otherwise stand. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@חוקרת: I fixed the notice at Talk:Organization of Struggle for the Emancipation of the Working Class and tried at least one way of searching for any other pages affected (finding no others so far). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:11, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by Researcher (חוקרת)

Is Iskandar323 an admin? Because the user rights on the account don't show this. Iskandar323 placed a Ds/talk notice consensus required notice on the talk page. If Iskandar323 is not a secret admin, then they are very much in the wrong here.

Fad Ariff also gave a reason in each of his edits why he remove material like here and here. Iskandar323 gave no reason other than announcing via edit summary that DS notice consensus required applies. Iskandar323 was supposed to check if the sources said what the text said. Again, is Iskandar323 an administrator? Because only administrators are allowed to make this kind of ruling I think.

Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 13:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

User:Firefangledfeathers, it is more than just copying a DS notice, Iskandar323 wrote in their edit summary "per the post-1978 Iranian politics DS notice, please seek consensus before re-instating (via reversion) any edits that have been challenged (likes the ones being reverted here in this restoration)". Iskandar323 relied on the Ds/talk notice they placed themselves.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 13:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

That isn't true. You placed a page restriction of consensus required You then relied on that same restriction you placed yourself, telling Fad Ariff they couldn't revert you unless they had consensus. I wonder, did you verify the material you placed after Fad Ariff said it wasn't verifiable? And who appointed you to place page restrictions? And even if you had the authority to place a page restriction, it wouldn't be ethical to both place a restriction and be in dispute with another editor on the page.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Assuming you aren't an admin, you don't get to decide that consensus required applies. And even if you were an admin, placing the consensus required on the talk page and reverting six minutes later based on your own consensus required ruling would be wrong.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 14:03, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

My replies above were to posts moved in this edit, therefore indents are doubled.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 14:43, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Iskander323 also placed a consensus required restriction at Talk:Organization of Struggle for the Emancipation of the Working Class, it is still there as I type, can it be removed?Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 15:02, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Iskandar323

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Appears to be another attempt to get Iskandar323 sanctioned after the last one failed. I note that the filer even opened a second AE in that case against someone who defended Iskandar. This one doesn't appear to have any merit either, it's a content dispute if it's anything, and I don't see much "anything" here. Black Kite (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• Without comment on the merits, I would just remind editors that filing multiple unactionable or spurious reports is a form of WP:DE, WP:HARASS and likely a few other acronyms. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• I don't think this is actionable. Iskandar323 was wrong to claim that the article was under a "consensus required" restriction and doesn't have the authority to impose one (even if Iskandar323 was an admin their involvement in this dispute would disqualify them from acting), but this looks like an honest mistake and certainly not the kind of thing that would justify a sanction. The other edit looks like a content dispute, the bar for imposing discretionary sanctions in content matters is very high. Hut 8.5 18:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)