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Revision as of 23:23, 28 July 2022

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ice cream article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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	Ice cream is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 8, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted

Food and drink: Desserts B‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Related taskforces: /  This article is within the scope of the Desserts Task Force, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive. Food and Drink task list: edit history watch purge To edit this page, select here Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom), Beef, Bread, Curry, Drink, Food, Ham and eggs, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yogurt Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Beer, French cuisine, Sugar Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Apple, Burger King, Fish Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review WP:Trivia and WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, select here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Misplaced Pages requested images of food Consider joining this project's Assessment task force. List any project ideas in this section Note: These lists are transcluded from the project's tasks pages.

History section

The history section of this article is a self-contradictory mess. It starts be telling us that Iranians were making frozen desserts (actually' deserts'!) around 550 BC, and ends by saying that they were only made possible after the discovery of the endothermic effect, dated to the 4th century AD. In between, it makes all sorts of contradictory statements, base in some cases apparently on original research. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

You've just deleted this sentence:

The history of ice cream is full of myths and stories with little evidence to support them.

CABF45 (talk) 13:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I did, because you copy-pasted it from the source, in blatant disregard to the copyright policy already brought to your attention on WP:RSN. And even if it wasn't a breach of copyright, it did nothing to improve the section. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The original sentence is slightly different and the sentence was properly credited to the source, a Royal Society of Chemistry book. CABF45 (talk) 13:49, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

References

1. Chris Clarke (2007). The Science of Ice Cream. Royal Society of Chemistry. p. 4.

I am not interested in debating with you further. Violate Misplaced Pages copyright policy again and I will report the matter. I didn't start this section to continue a discussion we have already had elsewhere, and your insistence on doing so is disruptive. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That's the easiest thing to do. It's only about four-five sentences. How would you cite them according to your standards? CABF45 (talk) 14:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: Is the self contradictory template still relevant since CABF45's disruptive edits are now removed ?---Wikaviani 14:41, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes. The origins section still ends by stating that "Ice cream was made possible only by the discovery of the endothermic effect", which is incompatible with things stated earlier. I suspect that the root issue here is that there is no real agreement as to what constitutes 'ice cream', and there is unlikely to ever be one. In such circumstances, Misplaced Pages needs to avoid definitive statements - and ideally, to avoid sources which make them. From a quick look, I get the impression that we are citing a fair number of sources that are likely to be questionable for historical content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Comment @CABF45: You seem to ignore that chemists are not historians, while the royal society of chemistry would be a reliable source for articles about chemistry, they are not for the history of ice cream. Please read our guidelines, that will spare time for all of us.---Wikaviani 14:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

However, the Indian Express is a perfect source for these types of claims... CABF45 (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Go ahead and remove it, there are many other sources supporting this claim.---Wikaviani 14:24, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I removed it for you. Done here.---Wikaviani 14:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion with a lot of good points being made. It may be better to focus the article on ice cream. The content about frozen dessert would improve that current stub article. Spudlace (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Break

I am going to attempt to boldly fix the issues that have been raised here about the history section. Geraldine M. Quinzio has written an academic book on the history of ice cream. Her discussion of ices and ice creams has custards as a precursor for ice cream. I will look for others to include the variety of ice creams in different cultures (gelato and similar variations). There is no agreement what constitutes ice cream but some things clearly out of scope can be used to improve the existing articles for other types of frozen desserts. Spudlace (talk) 19:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

It is far from obvious what is or isn't 'out of scope', and I'd strongly advise against edit-warring over content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

That's why I started discussion. If you want the content in the article you should be able to explain why on the talk page without being hostile to other editors. Spudlace (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Origins

Wikaviani this is not the right article for sorbet. I left this article alone to see if you or others would fix the problems with it but you are just "guarding" content that your comments say should be removed. I am ok with you removing the content from the article or let me do it. How long is the article going to be "protected" by edit warring when everyone agrees it needs to be fixed? Spudlace (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Firstly why do you ignore WP:BRD ? The definition of ice cream may vary, in some countries, sorbets are a kind of ice cream. Besides, the content you removed is relevant to this article since it is part of the developpment of this food. The encyclopedia of Jewish food for example, describes Faludah as the forerunner of all ice creams, that makes it relevant here. Also did you take a look at the job you made ? you just made the section vanish to replace it with some chemical infos that have only few to do with history and in your hurry to do so, all the cites contain errors ... Maybe a RfC would be relevant, since i don't feel me and you will reach an agreement but if you revert again before having reached a consensus here on the talk, i'll take this to ANI.---Wikaviani 22:26, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have time for an RfC. I'm not in the mood to work on the ice cream article right now but it is not acceptable for Misplaced Pages like this where the content in the article is about sorbet or frozen drinks. Sorbet is not a type of ice cream. But the mess you are rabidly protecting is not limited to reason. Sharbat? Like medieval orange juice? You are going to "take this to ANI". Please, do. I don't like working on controversial articles, I don't do it, I don't like having hours of time consumed by self-important pricks who would rather fight on talk pages than do work to improve articles. If I add the sourced content that I have found about ice cream it is going to make the section even more confused and contradictory then it is now. Please remove the content about sorbet from this article and fix the section so it is about ice cream or do Misplaced Pages and its readers a favor and stop guarding this article. Spudlace (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm guarding nothing but the quality of this article, if you don't have time to do a proper job, then maybe you should wait to have time in order to do so, just take a look at the version you left, nothing about history, cites were messed out, etc ... i just try, in good faith, to keep the quality of this article and i suggest you assume good faith about my editing. If sharbat is so much disturbing for you, fine, let's remove it, but faloodeh should remain, as per what i said just above, being the forerunner of all ice creams and sorbets, it has its place in the origins section. Best.---Wikaviani 22:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Based only on Gil Marks? Does he give any details discussion that is on par with other sources used on Misplaced Pages? Usually he does not. The unexplained original thoughts of Gil Marks are usually used only with careful attribution in Misplaced Pages articles. Spudlace (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Potato gelato into Ice cream

It is tagged notability for two years. It would easily merge into the ice cream article section on different world ice creams. Spudlace (talk) 23:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

• B-Class Food and drink articles
• Top-importance Food and drink articles
• WikiProject Food and drink articles