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Revision as of 08:46, 7 August 2022 editאנדרסן (talk | contribs)166 edits →Requested move 5 August 2022: support← Previous edit Revision as of 10:38, 7 August 2022 edit undoחוקרת (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,382 edits →Requested move 5 August 2022Next edit →
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*'''Support''' The proposed title is more or less what I searched to find this page. Use of operation names has always been contentious, and I have always been a strong opponent of them for NPOV reasons, and because I doubt that these are what readers such as myself will key. Every article with an operation name as its title inevitably gets multiple rename discussions; some of them get moved, some of them don't, so I can't really say there's a strong precedent-based argument for or against these names. The criticisms of the term "escalation" are heard, and I'd be okay with exploring other alternatives, but I still support moving to the proposed title over the current operational title. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 19:56, 6 August 2022 (UTC) *'''Support''' The proposed title is more or less what I searched to find this page. Use of operation names has always been contentious, and I have always been a strong opponent of them for NPOV reasons, and because I doubt that these are what readers such as myself will key. Every article with an operation name as its title inevitably gets multiple rename discussions; some of them get moved, some of them don't, so I can't really say there's a strong precedent-based argument for or against these names. The criticisms of the term "escalation" are heard, and I'd be okay with exploring other alternatives, but I still support moving to the proposed title over the current operational title. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS">]]</b> ] 19:56, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''Strong Oppose'''. The descriptive name is not natural and as this operation is developing is not stable, it may turn out to be a full war for instance. It is also problematic because of previous events in 2022, the terror wave by PIJ against Israeli civilians earlier in the year. Operation names are used in other similar articles like ], ], or ]. The operation name is a natural name that makes finding the specific operation easier.] (]) 07:12, 7 August 2022 (UTC) *'''Strong Oppose'''. The descriptive name is not natural and as this operation is developing is not stable, it may turn out to be a full war for instance. It is also problematic because of previous events in 2022, the terror wave by PIJ against Israeli civilians earlier in the year. Operation names are used in other similar articles like ], ], or ]. The operation name is a natural name that makes finding the specific operation easier.] (]) 07:12, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Agree with Huldra. NPOV. ] 🟡 (]) 🔵 ] 08:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC) <s>*'''Support''' Agree with Huldra. NPOV. ] 🟡 (]) 🔵 ] 08:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)</s> <small>Non ecp editor not allowed to comment in move discussions per ] "This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc." + "In a July 2020 ARCA and in a July 2021 motion, the Arbitration Committee clarified that requested moves are "internal project discussions" for the purposes of this remedy."</small>


== POV == == POV ==

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Requested move 5 August 2022

It has been proposed in this section that 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes be renamed and moved to 2022 Israel–Palestine escalation.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Operation Breaking Dawn → 2022 Israel–Palestine escalation – It is not NPOV to use names assigned by only one party to the conflict, better to follow the form established as in 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. Very recent and unclear how far escalation will go but the name must go meanwhile. Selfstudier (talk) 19:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC) EDIT: The page was created by a non ecp editor. Selfstudier (talk) 00:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if, as it stands, it is an even more reductive 2022 Israel–PIJ escalation - so far it appears to be almost entirely a series of attacks on PIJ personnel. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Sakiv see my comment below. RS is referring to this as "Operation Breaking Dawn", which is the official name of this military operation. Whether or not war crimes are being committed is irrelevant. Elijahandskip (talk) 20:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
@Elijahandskip: So you are literally adopting the Israeli narrative. Everyone knows who the Jerusalem Post belongs to.--Sakiv (talk) 21:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
TJP is a reliable source for information. Also, just based on your comment of accusing me of "adopting the Israeli narrative", I am questioning any possible COI NPOV here as that appears to be coming from a biased standpoint that Israeli sources are not reliable for information about their military. If that is the case, I highly recommend you either (1), take it up at WP:RS or (2) excuse yourself from this requested move for a possible COI NPOV. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
You only brought the Jerusalem Post as an example. It is not enough to be a reliable source. It must also be impartial. I also suspect that your vote is a conflict of interest.--Sakiv (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
WRAL-TV & Las Vegas Sun (2 American news organizations) also have articles referring to Operation "Breaking Dawn". Please excuse yourself from this requested move as I do highly suggest COI NPOV now with 2 impartial accusations against myself. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:43, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
@Elijahandskip: Another response and I will report to you for harassment and impartiality. Two sources from two unknown sites will do the trick for you. Stop singling me out!--Sakiv (talk) 21:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Ok, well I apologize for singling you out and for asking you to excuse yourself. In response to your statement of "Two sources from two unknown sites", the two sites I linked articles actually have articles: WRAL-TV & Las Vegas Sun, so they are not "unknown" sites. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
It's okay. I understand that what's happening now may cause some tension.--Sakiv (talk) 22:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Do note, I did switch my !vote to support, but not for the same reason as you. I do still believe the reason for your !vote is wrong, but we still have overall viewpoint. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:31, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
You do not understand the rationale for my vote. The operation does not target only Palestinian militants, most of the victims are unarmed civilians. As you know, Gaza has been under siege for 15 years, and there is no equivalence between the two sides. It's not about you and me. I don't want to go too far, why any incident in Ukraine is immediately stigmatized as a war crime without even an official investigation or evidence. Killing civilians is a war crime, whoever committed it.--Sakiv (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
How the hell is @Sakiv committing WP:COI violations? Like I don't think that user is involved with what's happening in Palestine. CR-1-AB (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. I used the wrong term. I meant WP:NPOV not COI. Either way, I am not singling them out anymore and focusing on the content rather than the editor. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

*Strong Oppose - The Jerusalem Post said "Israel takes initiative and launches widescale attack on northern Gaza in Operation Breaking Dawn." as the first sentence of their article on the operation. The true name of this is Operation Breaking Dawn. Exact same reason we don't call Operation Overlord the "Battle of Normandy". Once it is named, that is the name, so there should be no reasons to change the title. Elijahandskip (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Would like to point out that since RS use it as the name of the operation, whether or not the title is changed, "Operation Breaking Dawn" will still be bolded in the lead because per WP:OR, we must use what RS say. In this case, RS call it an operation and not killing, so unless we want to break/make an exception through that rule, it must be present. Also, based on the link you showed below, IF we did ignore RS on the title, then I would still oppose this title suggested because this would be a killing and not a military operation (despite what RS say). Basically, my !vote will remain oppose to 2022 Israel–Palestine escalation. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
It's very simple, we don't use names given by one side, end of. Selfstudier (talk) 22:06, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
* COMMENT While using the Israeli's name for the current conflict is not the best option here, escalation carries its own NPOV issues, and appears to be used by a Hamas spokesman at one point, further raising NPOV concerns.
Nameomcnameface (talk) 23:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Non ecp editor not allowed to comment in move discussions per WP:PIA "This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc." + "In a July 2020 ARCA and in a July 2021 motion, the Arbitration Committee clarified that requested moves are "internal project discussions" for the purposes of this remedy."
  • Support - the move to something else since the current title is unacceptable from the NPOV point of view. I’m not entirely sure if the target title is the most suitable choice, however. Nevertheless, I would select the proposed title over the current one. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:56, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Strong oppose This is not the only escalation in the conflict this year. Since March 2022 a wave of attacks against Israelis has taken place in the region (accompanied by following IDF raids in the West Bank), see Category:Terrorist incidents in Israel in 2022 and Shireen Abu Aqleh. This wave of violence actually has articles in three other languages. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 15:02, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Afaics, there is no need to disambiguate on English Misplaced Pages so this objection has no merit. Selfstudier (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

*Comemnt The unwillingness to name the agressor in the proposed title heavily contrasts with others choises such as 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. This is a bombardment initiated by Israel, if anything, it should be named as such. User:JoaquimCebuano — Preceding undated comment added 15:45, 6 August 2022 (UTC) Non ecp editor not permitted to comment here.Selfstudier (talk) 15:50, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

  • Support The proposed title is more or less what I searched to find this page. Use of operation names has always been contentious, and I have always been a strong opponent of them for NPOV reasons, and because I doubt that these are what readers such as myself will key. Every article with an operation name as its title inevitably gets multiple rename discussions; some of them get moved, some of them don't, so I can't really say there's a strong precedent-based argument for or against these names. The criticisms of the term "escalation" are heard, and I'd be okay with exploring other alternatives, but I still support moving to the proposed title over the current operational title.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:56, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. The descriptive name is not natural and as this operation is developing is not stable, it may turn out to be a full war for instance. It is also problematic because of previous events in 2022, the terror wave by PIJ against Israeli civilians earlier in the year. Operation names are used in other similar articles like Operation Claw-Eagle 2, Operations Claw-Lightning and Thunderbolt, or Operation Martyr Yalçın. The operation name is a natural name that makes finding the specific operation easier.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 07:12, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

*Support Agree with Huldra. NPOV. Niles Anderssøn 🟡 (talk) 🔵 Слава Україні 08:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC) Non ecp editor not allowed to comment in move discussions per WP:PIA "This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc." + "In a July 2020 ARCA and in a July 2021 motion, the Arbitration Committee clarified that requested moves are "internal project discussions" for the purposes of this remedy."

POV

A less POV description of these very recent events is available at Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2022. The editing, together with the non NPOV name, are unacceptable. Selfstudier (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

What's the POV problem? The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine is a designated terrorist organization all over the free world. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Grandiose names for military operations such as killings/assassinations, until such a time as they pass into the history books, are just euphemistic titles. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
The killing of Osama bin Laden is just the Killing of Osama bin Laden, that just so happens to be code-named "Operation Neptune Spear" by the US. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
We had the same argument in 2021 with pro Israeli editors trying to name 2021 Israel-Palestine crisis as Operation Guardian of the Walls, the IDF name for their operation and now a redirect.Selfstudier (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that Selfstudier is removing link to this article from Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2022, see talk page there. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:02, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps because it's an unbalanced stub ... if you want to redress this, and have time on your hands, please feel free to expand it from the Arabic version. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:10, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
In order to expand this article and make it balanced, editors need to know that it exists. How does removing links to it helps in changing it from being an unbalanced stub? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

A. There is a clear NPOV dispute here, removing the tag requires consensus when that is under discussion. B. framing the events as a military operation and not an extrajudicial killing is non-neutral. You cant simply take one sides framing and adopt it as Misplaced Pages's. nableezy - 22:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the content is reasonable at this point though. The title not as much. nableezy - 23:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

combatants

placing the PIJ as the combatant here is a POV violation, it is portraying Israel's framing as an attack on PIJ as fact. Sources are reporting Israel attacked the Gaza Strip, so either State of Palestine or Gaza Strip should be placed as the combatant. Ditto for commander, hard to say somebody assassinated in his sleep was "in action", and he wasnt a commander for Gaza in any way. nableezy - 22:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

In his sleep? The strike was a bit after 4 pm local time. He was commanding anti-tank squads from his hidden location. Gaza Strip isn't a combatant so far, the Hamas is staying out of the fighting so far. -----Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 06:54, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
@Nableezy (As for now) The conflict is strictly between the PIJ and Israel. Hamas has stated their will to stay out.I believe it is wiser to address the PIJ as such and distinguish the rest of the terrorists organisations with their great differences. 2A06:C701:9C72:C500:55C1:2907:215B:F503 (talk) 09:21, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 August 2022

This edit request to Operation Breaking Dawn has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Category:Battles in 2022 to Category:2022 airstrikes; this was an airstrike rather than a battle. UncleBourbon (talk) 01:29, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The opening strike was an airstike, but it was followed up by rocket fire from Gaza and arrests in the West Bank which are not airstrikes. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 07:15, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
2022 airstrikes added. Selfstudier (talk) 08:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Israeli casualties

3 Israelis wounded. On TV as of now, looking for a source. Lilijuros (talk) 08:37, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bj0sm9o6c 79.180.38.101 (talk) 09:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Added to infobox. Selfstudier (talk) 10:06, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The statement "The stated aim by Israel was to attack the PIJ" is not correct nor neutral

This isn't the stated aim, this is the action that the IDF is doing. The original aim of the operation was to prevent an imminent borser attack by PIJ after the group explicitely stated it will do so following the arrest of a PIJ senior in the Jenin refugee camp. 2A03:C5C0:107B:A547:85CB:4436:4AB6:52C9 (talk) 09:58, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Per ToI "The IDF was engaged in “a targeted campaign against PIJ,” spokesman Kochav said repeatedly in his TV interview, and military officials made the same point in media briefings." I added this quote to clarify the aim. Selfstudier (talk) 10:02, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

statistics

For example: yesterday, The IDF reports that a volley of 80 rockets was fired into Israel. 46 reached the territory of the country and 33 were intercepted. At every escalation, the organizations in Gaza fire rockets. Some of them reach the territory of Israel and the others land in the territory of the Gaza Strip. The matter is not often mentioned. https://www.zman.co.il/live/330698/ 15:04, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Selfstudier2A00:A040:184:2F80:BCFF:D366:8378:2781 (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Blog is not a RS. Selfstudier (talk) 15:55, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Selfstudier, IT IS NOT BLOG. It (https://www.zman.co.il/330486/popup/) is live news, such as https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/ . More sources: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hkndf09a5 . today (18:15): "In total, more than 400 rockets have been fired at Israel so far, about 100 of which fell in the Gaza Strip, most of the rest were intercepted by Iron Dome or fell in open areas..." https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001420547 --2A00:A040:184:2F80:5069:3F2F:F831:5694 (talk) 16:40, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
See WP:EDITREQ / Misplaced Pages:Edit Request Wizard Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

statistics

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

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  • What I think should be changed:

For example: yesterday, The IDF reports that a volley of 80 rockets was fired into Israel. 46 reached the territory of the country and 33 were intercepted. At every escalation, the organizations in Gaza fire rockets. Some of them reach the territory of Israel and the others land in the territory of the Gaza Strip. https://www.zman.co.il/live/330698/ --2A00:A040:184:2F80:7159:491C:FB2E:5825 (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

  • Why it should be changed:

The matter is not often mentioned. it influence the operation.

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

More sources: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hkndf09a5 . today (18:15): "In total, more than 400 rockets have been fired at Israel so far, about 100 of which fell in the Gaza Strip, most of the rest were intercepted by Iron Dome or fell in open areas..." https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001420547 https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/2022_q3/Article-35f83d6b9447281026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802

2A00:A040:184:2F80:7159:491C:FB2E:5825 (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Selfstudier 2A00:A040:184:2F80:7159:491C:FB2E:5825 (talk) 20:11, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Sky (an RS) Today 20:45 UK "Palestinian militants have retaliated by firing at least 200 rockets at Israel" Selfstudier (talk) 21:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC) ToI 350 rockets AJ Over 400 We should wait for consistent reports. Selfstudier (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Selfstudier, It is possible to note the statistics of the first day where there is more consistent reports.https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hkndf09a5 https://www.zman.co.il/live/330698/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-estimates-that-pij-fired-80-rockets-at-israel-after-terror-group-said-it-launched-100/ https://twitter.com/barakravid/status/1555626542037958662 2A00:A040:184:2F80:B9D1:889E:5C2C:60CB (talk) 22:27, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
I will let someone else decide about it, please wait for an editor to review your request. Selfstudier (talk) 22:32, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
In my opinion general statistics are useful. Obviously the rocket launch numbers are increasing day to day. However, sources are covering the high failure rate. The Washington Post says that a third (out of 449, when they were writing) of the rocket launches by Palestinians fell inside Gaza. This is a significant amount of explosives falling on Gazan homes, being fired by Gazan themselves.Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 07:26, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

References

first day

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

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  • What I think should be changed:

firt attack at the operration.

  • Why it should be changed:

At the same time as Jabri was killed, the deputy commander of the anti-tank formation of the Islamic Jihad, Abdullah Kadum, was also killed, two squads he commanded were on their way to carry out an attack using an anti-tank missile. The head of the observation array in the northern Gaza Strip was also killed in the attack, which lasted less than three minutes.

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

https://news.walla.co.il/item/3522509 2A00:A040:184:2F80:B9D1:889E:5C2C:60CB (talk) 22:47, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Categories: