Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:04, 23 February 2007

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages!

Hello, and Welcome to the Misplaced Pages, I'clast! Thanks for the contributions over on the Joseph Mercola article. Here are a few perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Misplaced Pages experience:

• Take a look at the New contributors' help page, the Misplaced Pages Tutorial and the Manual of Style, and If you still need any help, you can always post your question at the Help Desk.
• When you have time, please peruse The five pillars of Misplaced Pages and Assume good faith, but please keep in mind the unique style you brought to the Wiki!
• Always be mindful of striving for NPOV, be respectful of others' POV, and remember your perspective on the meaning of neutrality is invaluable!
• Explore, be bold in editing, and, above all else, have fun!

And some odds and ends: Cite your sources, Civility, Conflict resolution, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Pages needing attention, Peer review, Policy Library, Verifiability, Village pump, and Wikiquette; also, you can sign your name on any page by typing four tildes: ~~~~. Best of luck, I'clast, and most importantly, have fun! Ombudsman 11:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

WIACHR

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Please don't vandalize the essays. Azmoc 17:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Apparently suggestions about corrective & informative edits of "owned" pages weren't welcome by the above editor on "his" agenda driven essay that he severely criticizes Misplaced Pages in general and other editors broadly. Looks like an AfD candidate. Above editor's recent improvements: Agenda proposal, arguing with several admins, interaction with others. Another editor's assessment:. --I'clast 19:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right. Azmoc is soleley a POV warrior who has yet to make a single useful contribution to the encyclopedia, which is the reason we are here, supposedly. User:Zoe| 19:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit about the retraction and 50K in Mercola and Barrett article

• l'clast. I agree with you on this issue. Another editor, Fyslee, was bent on including it in the Barrett article as well with the same references even if the editors had clearly agreed that in legal matters, a high level of verifiability was required. Fyslee is an editor who is a self-proclaimed quackbuster as well as an Assistant Listmaster for Dr. Barrett and very actively involved in editing articles related to the subject at hand as well as to subjects posted on QW. NATTO 04:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Independent review of QW

• I'clast. many thanks for the links to the independent review of QW. Very relevant and factual. Hopefully that will help focus on the real issues instead of having to deal with the specific worldview of some editors. :-) NATTO 09:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Since these links originated among several with AEL, User:Alan2012, also , you might thank/encourage him also. I suspect that he may be able to source more, similar links.--I'clast 19:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am glad to do so and have posted a message to that effect on his talk page :-) NATTO 11:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Stephen Barrett, Quackwatch, and NCAHF article

I have started three separate proposals to merge these three articles. The discussion for each amalgamation of the merge begins here. I would appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts for each proposal. Thanks. Levine2112 00:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, a lot of these have been merged eh? Like, even that Tim Bolen and Quackpotwatch articles were redirected to quackwatch. I guess it was decided that they didn't need articles? Tyciol 22:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

All three articles were retained due to legal structure.--I'clast 22:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

/NCAHF_lg_archive

QW

• I apologize if I removed any of your edits on that topic. I was trying to undo the edits of Travis who insist on putting a POV spin on the review section. You are more than welcome to re-insert your edits. NATTO 08:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• One more thing. Can you please put the name of the editor you are addressing your comments in the talk page to avoid any confusion. Thanks :-) NATTO 08:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• I restored the edit as best I could determine. Please note that on the anti-skeptic issue. It appears that Kauffman is member of his local skeptic group so I thought best to have a neutral title , after his status as a skeptic is not the point, it is the content and quality of his review that is. :-) NATTO 08:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

ok

Kauffman's article assessed as a critical view User talk:I'clast/As-criticism-of-QW

Fyslee has replied in my place to your message on my talk page

I'Clast please see below:

I think if you could come up with 1-2 references that show QW attacking or unfairly characterizing Weil (or Pauling) and perhaps a 2-5 word phrase, that would be a better format.--I'clast 12:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Please do, since that will provide an opportunity to provide Quackwatch's arguments on those points. Just open that door.....;-) But, on second thought, we're trying to write an encyclopedia, not conduct a discussion group. The article is about Quackwatch. If you really want to do that, do it on their articles. That way, if you really want to invite Barrett et al into those articles, just do what you are suggesting. You'll get the whole scientific community on your backs, point-by-(excruciatingly revealing)-point. So far all the criticism you have provided on the various articles has only resulted in enlargening them and strenghtening them, for which we are actually grateful. Call it unintended "collateral benefit" to the cause of exposing quackery and fringe science...;-) Without it we might have settled for short and factual articles. (Maybe this is a result of too much mercury exposure? Dangerous stuff! It keeps one from seeing "the big picture." To see it, just look at the articles before and after you got involved.) Have a nice day. -- Fyslee 13:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) Per the above, apparently bias, (in)accuracy, (im)balance are minor concerns once a certain POV is established. As for the "the whole scientific community", QW is already missing silent portions of the scientifc community, albeit many only express their opinion after retirement, if ever. The QW article before? the word hagiology comes to mind.--I'clast 13:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we wouldn't want that kind of thing. It's a controversial site, and it can't be any other way. Any website or anyone who has an opinion will risk getting involved in controversy, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's one of the ways we learn. Studying both sides of a controversy is stimulating and helps us to developed informed biases, rather than blind prejudices. (Read my introduction for more on that subject.) Controversies should be mentioned and linked, but the article isn't the place for editors to continue the discussion on their own account, or on the account of others. Doing that is unencyclopedic and would end up reproducing the website and portions of other websites, ending up with a long, rambling, and argumentative article. We need to stay on-topic. Mention the controversies, link to them and the subjects - including wikilinks - and then let readers do their own studying outside of the article itself. The article should just mention things. It plants the seeds, but it isn't our job to do the harvesting. (If you were a fundamentalist Christian - like I have been - you'd recognize that that is the work of the Holy Spirit....;-) -- Fyslee 14:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I have indicated to User:Fyslee on his talk page that this is inappropriate and that in addition his comments were of a threatening nature. I am not sure if this is acceptable in WP ? NATTO 15:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

My reply to NATTO's comments and accusation are found here. -- Fyslee 19:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"...Mention the controversies, link to them and the subjects - including wikilinks" this is similar to my thinking with the suggestion to Natto of 2-5 word phrases with 1-2 superscripted references to Natto earlier. I do like cleaner prose, but significant contention points need some kind of ' * '. In some cases I think that better examples could be given, e.g. I think Pauling is a poor example (i.e. QW bragging that it shot & skinned the rarest, largest of a protected species to both fed'l and state game agents after running the fleece up the flagpole would seem kind of ill advised, even in the most anti-govt woods). We've been working on this article hot & heavy for several weeks, things have been getting a little warm again this weekend. The QW article is in pretty good shape now, perhaps we should try to slow to small, occasional edits this week. Its still Sunday here, so let's think positive thoughts about our neighbors. Pace.--I'clast 23:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'Clast, Sound advice. Thank you and enjoy what is left of your week-end :-)NATTO 23:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Your comments on Talk:The National Council Against Health Fraud

Could I suggest that mundane editorial disagreements are most likely to resolve quickly and productively when editors observe the following:

• Remain polite per WP:Civility.
• Solicit feedback and ask questions.
• Keep the discussion focused. Concentrate on a small set of related matters and resolve them to the satisfaction of all parties.
• Focus on the subject rather than on the personalities of the editors.

Thanks! --Ronz 02:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages guidelines dictate that you assume good faith in dealing with other editors. Please stop being uncivil to your fellow editors, and assume that they are here to improve Misplaced Pages. Thank you. --Ronz 16:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Attacking another user back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors and leads to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! --Ronz 22:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I did ask nicely and hope that others will see the positive, collaborative merits in my suggestions.--I'clast 22:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To me, your writing "you have pushed your point of view very hard here, let it go" comes across as a povpush accusation. Further, you say so in the midst of another's blatant povpush effort. However, I appreciate your notable difference in tone and approach. --Ronz 23:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Kauffman

You make some interesting points, but either I have more knowledge of evidenced-based medicine than you or more hope in it. Kauffman appears completely unaware, but then he's a biochemist so why should he be? --Ronz 00:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

More knowledge of evidence based medicine for you? There is little evidence regarding that, but you certainly must have more hope or belief in certain commercially influenced data sources. Kauffman is at scientific odds with a number of old medical saws & based on a current view of science, not the 1950s. I would say Kauffman might be hyperaware. His work is an independent analysis & synthesis of recent literature.--I'clast 10:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

(I'm just continuing what I found to be an interesting discussion which I felt would be inappropriate to continue on the article talk page. If you're not interested in continuing the conversation, just let me know. I won't be offeneded.)

I'm awaiting some reviews of his book by respectable sources. My point is that the valid issues Kauffman brings up should be solved by evidenced-based medicine. Of course, the political and financial issues are ultimately another matter altogether. Did I miss something in his book where he discusses evidenced-based medicine? --Ronz 21:18, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess so, he takes the "evidence" and reruns it critically. That's the point of the analyses and his book. He doesn't have fresh data, he is using what others refused to properly assess (or design or run or report), sometimes rather blatantly. This approaches the heart of concerns about pervasive, multilevel systemic biases in a trillion+ $ industry. I start counting with the expurgated textbooks when one walks into medical school on day one. This article reflects my own (limited) experience with Harrison's. On finding contra reviewers, his statins part alone will gather Kauffman innumerable "respectable" critics. $25b+/yr buys lots of (camp)followers.--I'clast 21:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to the reviews. I'll have to look through the book again too. --Ronz 23:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Talk:Ilena

I don't appreciate the harrassment by you against me on Ilena's talk page. If you have something to say about my behavior, do it here or on my talk page. --Ronz 01:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

My comments primarily were for the benefit of Ilena and for various readers, even if phrased for you ( since you would be looking for responses). I am not harrassing anyone. Au contre, in fact every time you have pointed the finger at me or someone else, I have thought you should monitor closely where the other 4 fingers are pointing; I have. If I treated you, as you have me, this past ~10 days, I think you would be *extremely & noisily unhappy* - I have avoided constantly objecting and quoting dubiously interpreted policy, rather discussing things as conversationally as possible. When I do quote policy, it is not for trival, inflated or imaginary reasons. I discuss & look for logical closure. Al Smith was known as the Happy Warrior. If we need to talk with the admins, I suspect that there will be an un-Al Smith.--I'clast 12:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I thought. Sorry that you don't like my interpretations of wiki guidelines and policies. --Ronz 15:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Please add tags rather than deleting statements

Please add {{citation needed}} or somesuch instead of deleting text. —Długosz

??? Pls add difs or to show where/what you want. If I deleted something, it means I thought that Jimbo's request to delete uncited material first or BLP was apprpriate.--I'clast 19:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

l'clast: Good call on "currently." I don't even know if I did that or not.. You are absolutely right - it is redundant. I have never liked the "is currently".... Jance 03:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Mannaspam

Hi I'clast - any ideas on dealing with the mannatech vandal / spammer? Check out my user page to see what I mean... True manna 04:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

NCAHF

WIll you add "agree" or "disagree" where others have, under Curtis' statement under "Protected" . He is saying the only complaint about his very long long edits was that it was copyrighted. Not the case. WE all need to show this clearly. ThanksJance 00:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Great...now just the paragraph above where you commented - "agree" or "disagree" to Curtis' statement. Now there are three "Disagree" - Ronz, someone I have not heard of, and me. Jance 00:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for the cleanup after IR's attack on my talk page. Now if we could get her to cleanup her sites, where many interpretations and ideas are prominent. It's irritating to find oneself lumped together with others one doesn't even know. Thanks again. -- Fyslee 02:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand why you have revised my comments above, but NPOV only applies to articles, not to talk pages or user space. -- Fyslee 09:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. I am trying to figure out how to reduce tensions between both of you, although I am not idlely counting on world peace. I figure there are things that I need to get clear on from Ilena, you, and the off premises baggage.--I'clast 15:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have finally gotten around to reading the last 11 hours on the Barrett talk page and have come away with a very positive impression of your mediative spirit. Thanks for trying. Regards. Fyslee 23:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Off the air for a while

Due to a family tragedy, I will be off the air (and WP) for a while. Just letting you know on your talk as we have had the most discussions. Shot info 22:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'Clast, please send me an email

Hi! I am Alan, or "alan2012", a sometime contributor to Misplaced Pages -- e.g. the Barrett/Quackwatch page and (last summer) the Orthomolecular Med page.

Actually I am a naive, inexperienced contributor who is still trying to figure things out around here. Lots to learn and I am not sure how much detail I want to try to absorb. Just figured out tonight (duhhhh) that I should SIGN IN before I do an edit! Ha. I'll get better at it.

Anyway, would you mind dropping me a line by email -- aelewis AT provide DOT net

I would appreciate it. There are several folk I would like to be able to communicate with, but the Wiki thing still feels like something of a maze to me.

Sincerely,

Alan Lewis

PS: Me: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Alan2012

3+ RR Warning

If I broke any rules then I challenge you to report me immediately. GigiButterfly 22:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The rule does not apply to vandlism. GigiButterfly 23:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

You misapply the term. Please (re-)read WP:VANDAL. You are well over 3RR.--I'clast 23:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I am itching to edit this again. Levine212 is right. This does constitute a OR violation. You asked me to write you before I edit. Well, here I am. GigiButterfly is confused about what constitutes vandalism, too. TheDoctorIsIn 23:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Doc, I don't mind careful article edits but try to avoid entanglement with GB.--I'clast 23:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I challenge you to report me right now. Tell me where to go and I will report me to the wikipolice. GigiButterfly 23:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

re: I'clast's recent edit

do not tamper with the quotes everyone is watching —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GigiButterfly (talk • contribs) 23:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

"Tampering" implies a lack of good faith editing. I advise you to read WP:AGF. My edits are not "tampering".--I'clast 23:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not remove quotes made by Kauffman in his own words. stop.

At Wikipeida, editors edit; also read Misplaced Pages:Ownership_of_articles. To quote, "...If you don't want your material to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." Welcome to Misplaced Pages.--I'clast 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

You are not editing the material. You are censoring it. You removed it.

No. Pls see this response. Also please sign your posts.--I'clast 00:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes pls see my answer

?? No answer, posted yet--I'clast 01:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

3RR

I did not break 3RR. My edits were in good faith and in consideration of the edit summaries. If you go through, you'll find that I only reverted to a previous version 3 times. Every other edit was a new attempt to reword the offending passage -- I never reverted to a previous version. Go ahead and report me if you think that's wrong, but I'll note that you are far from a clean conscience when it comes to these things, WP:POT. --ScienceApologist 00:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I should add that informing SA of WP:3RR could be construed as an insult (much like informing Jimmy Wales of WP:V), even though I expect that it was not intended as such. I assure you that SA has quite a good knowledge of the 3RR policy. --Philosophus 07:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

3+ RR Warning

To be specific:

1. Please refrain from repeatedly undoing other people's edits , as you are doing in Quackwatch. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. The three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, please discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. GigiButterfly 02:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice to see how much better you sign now ;->--I'clast 02:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Barrett v. Rosenthal/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Newyorkbrad (Acting as Assistant to the Clerk) 00:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Other Barrett related removals at GLA

Please discuss your removals of Quackwatch refs at Gamma-Linolenic acid on its talk page. David.Throop 14:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Done, thank you for your participation and cooperation.--I'clast 11:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

BvR Evidence

Could you please rewrite "I did not realize Ronz too, as an IP, went that far back until Levine's note above" to clarify what you mean? It sounds like you are accusing me of being the ip in question when I believe you mean Fyslee. Please clarify. Thanks. --Ronz 16:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for removing it. I still think a clarification would be in order. In case you didnt notice, I brought up the issue in Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Barrett_v._Rosenthal/Evidence#Can_anyone_clarify_a_statement_by_I.27clast.3F because you havent been editing much lately. --Ronz 21:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It's deleted, I'm done. Least confusion might be to simply delete your request, it's not even a molehill.--I'clast 21:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

That's perfectly understandable. Thanks again. --Ronz 21:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Threatening to out someone (no, practically doing it!)

Wow! That's quite the charge. Now you've really raised my curiosity about their real identity.

This is doubly incriminating, since I am being accused of threatening to "out" Alan2012, when I'm actually protecting him. (You see, there's no rule that requires me to out someone, even when that protection risks allowing continued policy violations.) We both know who he is.... I'd rather collaborate, and I hope he's redeemable.

Please enlighten me by my email. -- Fyslee (collaborate) 16:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not outing Alan2012's real id or profession, which Alan2012 clearly does not hide. Rather the problem is what might at first appear to be "friendly" advice reads as an implicit threat over Alan's profession as a severe, bannable COI in your statement. That is how it reads to me, additionally fueled by your various AN, etc filings and other edit actions (versus recent philosophical writings).

The oblique COI charge is not about you, but rather the problems Ilena had here, and will continue for the rest of us. It is a culmination of a series of my hints over the last month to an apparently real QW author/advisor/relative to back off the COI edits, not so subtle POV and provocations, if not totally refraining from such a trojan horse presence.--I'clast 16:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have woken up to a snow storm here in Denmark, and have checked your contributions and found this. This apparently involves more than I understand. Call me a naive idealist. So it looks like we both did the same thing, except that you are actually going to do it, while I really meant it as a friendly warning because I felt (as do you towards Shot info) that he was so qualified and knowledgeable a person that I was interested in seeing him succeed here, even when it would mean strengthening the alternative medicine side's POV. That shows my concern for NPOV, in spite of my own personal POV. I have a feeling we are very much like each other (except for your obviously greater talents and know how in some areas). While we have had our differences (in the past), I have come to appreciate your integrity, which I have previously doubted. (It can be hard to always AGF in a conflict situation. Fortunately I don't have the type of conspiracy theory mentality that prevents me from ever AGF. Sometimes one just has to give up on such persons.) Hmmm, I am indeed very curious where this is going. I have a feeling I'm in for a big shock! (If you would enable your email, you'd get the rest of this. Contact me.) -- Fyslee (collaborate) 11:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)