| Revision as of 15:57, 9 August 2022 editIronMaidenRocks (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,138 edits →Scope of title← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:30, 9 August 2022 edit undoAnonMoos (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers71,895 edits →Scope of titleNext edit → | ||
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| :Alternately, perhaps *mentions* of that flag (as well as the hoax MAP flag) -- without image -- might be warranted perhaps in a "Controversial" subsection. - ] (]) 04:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC) | :Alternately, perhaps *mentions* of that flag (as well as the hoax MAP flag) -- without image -- might be warranted perhaps in a "Controversial" subsection. - ] (]) 04:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC) | ||
| ::Is anyone trying to add that flag?---Lilach5 (]) ] 04:13, 31 July 2022 (UTC) | ::Is anyone trying to add that flag?---Lilach5 (]) ] 04:13, 31 July 2022 (UTC) | ||
| :Actually, I wouldn't be against the inclusion of a mention of ]s in this article, which have been developed by both allies and homophobes. It would be within the scope of the article to mention that such the concept of "pride flags" outside (or even opposing) the LGBTQ community exists, which ]. Should straight people have a pride flag? It doesn't matter, because it is not Misplaced Pages's job to arbitrate that (see ], ], and ]). ~]<sup>]]</sup> 08:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC) | :Actually, I wouldn't be against the inclusion of a mention of ]s in this article, which have been developed by both allies and homophobes. It would be within the scope of the article to mention that such the concept of "pride flags" outside (or even opposing) the LGBTQ community exists, which ]. Should straight people have a pride flag? It doesn't matter, because it is not Misplaced Pages's job to arbitrate that (see ], ], and ]). ~]<sup>]]</sup> 08:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC) | ||
| :The important thing to remember here is that we can't cover troll flags in a way that gives ''any'' appearance of equivalence with genuine pride flags. That doesn't mean that we can't cover them at all but we do have to be very careful when engaging with such bad faith propaganda materials in order to contextualise them clearly and properly for our readers. One possibility would be to have a section called "Parodies, backlash and trolling" for this. That section could explain how such flags are (mis)used as well as showing one or two examples. In my view, all the straight/cis/etc flags fall into this category except for the sincere ally flags, which do have their own issues but at least they are not intended for trolling. ] (]) 11:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC) | :The important thing to remember here is that we can't cover troll flags in a way that gives ''any'' appearance of equivalence with genuine pride flags. That doesn't mean that we can't cover them at all but we do have to be very careful when engaging with such bad faith propaganda materials in order to contextualise them clearly and properly for our readers. One possibility would be to have a section called "Parodies, backlash and trolling" for this. That section could explain how such flags are (mis)used as well as showing one or two examples. In my view, all the straight/cis/etc flags fall into this category except for the sincere ally flags, which do have their own issues but at least they are not intended for trolling. ] (]) 11:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC) | ||
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| ::There's a high probability that the horizontal black-and-white striped flag was invented to be the background of the "straight ally" flag. There's also a high probability that a heterosexual flag devised by actual heterosexuals would make use of the obvious rich symbolisms available -- Mars and Venus, pink and blue, hearts, etc. etc. -- and would not try to invoke prison uniforms, zebra stripes, or pedestrian crossings. ] (]) 23:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC) | ::There's a high probability that the horizontal black-and-white striped flag was invented to be the background of the "straight ally" flag. There's also a high probability that a heterosexual flag devised by actual heterosexuals would make use of the obvious rich symbolisms available -- Mars and Venus, pink and blue, hearts, etc. etc. -- and would not try to invoke prison uniforms, zebra stripes, or pedestrian crossings. ] (]) 23:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC) | ||
| :::Do you have evidence for the meaning of the black and white stripes? What I've looked up says the stripes stand for two genders. What you're saying seems to be from the description of the picture, which was written by user Nikki with no citation. The same stripes are present on other LGBT flags, like Agender. I can't find anything on the history of this flag in Scholar or the Misplaced Pages Library. --] (]) 15:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC) | :::Do you have evidence for the meaning of the black and white stripes? What I've looked up says the stripes stand for two genders. What you're saying seems to be from the description of the picture, which was written by user Nikki with no citation. The same stripes are present on other LGBT flags, like Agender. I can't find anything on the history of this flag in Scholar or the Misplaced Pages Library. --] (]) 15:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC) | ||
| ::::I'm referring to obvious associations which would occur to many, many people when seeing a pattern of black and white stripes (regardless of what the original intentions may have been). The ] (i.e. master/slave relationship flag) was designed by its originator Tanos to have black-and-white stripes to specifically invoke prison uniforms or prison bars, but it's hardly an association suitable to heterosexuality. If heterosexuals were devising a heterosexual flag, it's very hard to see how they would arrive at a design which easily lends itself to such unwanted interpretations, while simultaneously ignoring all the other rich symbolisms available, such as Mars and Venus, pink and blue, moon and sun, etc. etc. etc. ] (]) 19:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 19:30, 9 August 2022
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Gay man flag
Most of these flags here are not really mainstream, you wouldn't be able to show it to someone on the street and have them recognize it besides like, the rainbow one. I don't think the fact that it is originated in social media should be a point against it, as the lesbian one also was. I don't think including the most used flag for gay men, a huge part of the LGBT community, is "indiscriminate archiving of all flags".
Things showing how common it is:
Physical versions of it to buy: https://pridenation.lgbt/products/blue-gay-men-flag
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08B4QGSRF/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-u5-Eb8BG772B
https://www.1000flags.co.uk/gay-male-pride-striped-5-x-3-150cm-x-90cm-flag-76197-p.asp
Pins and many other products: https://www.etsy.com/listing/754583534/gay-man-gay-male-gay-bear-pride-flag-pin?utm_source=OpenGraph&utm_medium=PageTools&utm_campaign=Share https://www.fursonapins.com/shop/product/631
https://gayprideshop.co.uk/collections/gay-male-mlm
There are many more links at the source of its creation (https://gayflagblog.tumblr.com/merch).
Articles or so about it or that include it: https://cadehildreth.com/pride-flags/ (source posted)
https://queercafe.net/symbols.htm
https://orientando.org/search/apora/
https://www.josiewrites.com/2021/02/19/writing-gay-characters/
https://entendi2.com/nueva-bandera-gay
https://escriturafeminista.com/2018/06/19/cicloorgullolgbtia-identidad-gay/
https://codigopublico.com/rompiendo-codigos/bandera-gay-necesidad-o-capricho
I could also find many many examples of it being used on social media, but I was told that was irrelevant to adding things here... When imo it really shouldn't. The way LGBT youth expresses themselves absolutely matters, and the fact that such being done in social media is considered not valid is, legimately saddening to me. And this is a website that archives plenty of things related to the internet.
It might seem like I'm just someone randomly deciding to put this nonsense here, but there's the fact that, a version of the file was originally uploaded here back in 2019, it was included in another article before I even tried putting it in pages myself, after the revert of my original one on LGBT symbols someone else(that isn't me, or the original uploader, or the one who added it to the gay men page) added it back, so clearly this is something that a considerable amount of people think deserve to be here and not just some random whim. -- 07:41, 19 April 2021 Wonkakun
Transphobic Lesbian Flag
I was wondering, why the article was changed. Originally, the Lesbian flag was the orange-and-pink flag, while the pink-and-red(ish) flag was labeled under "subculture flags" as the "Lipstick Lesbian flag" and the one with the lipstick smear was labeled as "Lipstick Lesbian (original design)". This was fine the way it was, as the lipstick flag without the lipstick smear has been recently viewed as transphobic and harmful to lesbians. Now, the Lesbian flag is the Transphobic flag while the orange-and-pink is put under "Lesbian (2019)". While technically correct that the flag was made in 2019, it makes it seem like the correct flag to use at all times is the transphobic one. I'm curious as to why it was changed, and if it will be changed back? Zhyena28 (talk) 01:52, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
why is the MAP flag not here?
I feel its a notable enough pride flag to be featured here -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.161.222.7 (talk) 09:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- I never heard of it before, but a little Googling appears to reveal that it originated as a hoax: etc. AnonMoos (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- OP was in another thread promoting racial theory. I'm not surprised to see them here promoting other alt-right themes. Disavow per WP:noracists and WP:nonazis. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 20:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Scope of title
The current title of the article could open the potential for inclusion of such things as the "straight pride flag" which has been developed by homophobes. In the spirit of NPOV and encylopedicism, it seems that it would be prudent to add "LGBT" or some other qualifier to the page title to specify. Without that qualifier, the arguments against including such a thing as the "straight pride" flag would lack taxonomic rigor. So, perhaps the article title should be "LGBTQ pride flags" instead of just "pride flags". 73.140.122.224 (talk) 04:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- Alternately, perhaps *mentions* of that flag (as well as the hoax MAP flag) -- without image -- might be warranted perhaps in a "Controversial" subsection. - 73.140.122.224 (talk) 04:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- Is anyone trying to add that flag?---Lilach5 (L+J+L+K%5) discuss 04:13, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, I wouldn't be against the inclusion of a mention of straight flags in this article, which have been developed by both allies and homophobes. It would be within the scope of the article to mention that such the concept of "pride flags" outside (or even opposing) the LGBTQ community exists, which does not necessarily mean endorsing it. Should straight people have a pride flag? It doesn't matter, because it is not Misplaced Pages's job to arbitrate that (see WP:SOAPBOX, WP:ADVOCACY, and WP:RGW). ~BappleBusiness 08:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
- The important thing to remember here is that we can't cover troll flags in a way that gives any appearance of equivalence with genuine pride flags. That doesn't mean that we can't cover them at all but we do have to be very careful when engaging with such bad faith propaganda materials in order to contextualise them clearly and properly for our readers. One possibility would be to have a section called "Parodies, backlash and trolling" for this. That section could explain how such flags are (mis)used as well as showing one or two examples. In my view, all the straight/cis/etc flags fall into this category except for the sincere ally flags, which do have their own issues but at least they are not intended for trolling. DanielRigal (talk) 11:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
If you want to include a real heterosexual flag, then feel free, but please do not include the horizontal black-and-white striped flag, which is actually a flag devised for straight people by gay people, and which many heterosexuals would find offensive (due to associations with prison uniforms etc. etc). AnonMoos (talk) (talk) 07:22, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- That's news to me. I've only ever seen it used in a "straight pride" context but I don't know where it started. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's a troll flag either way. DanielRigal (talk) 11:16, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- There's a high probability that the horizontal black-and-white striped flag was invented to be the background of the "straight ally" flag. There's also a high probability that a heterosexual flag devised by actual heterosexuals would make use of the obvious rich symbolisms available -- Mars and Venus, pink and blue, hearts, etc. etc. -- and would not try to invoke prison uniforms, zebra stripes, or pedestrian crossings. AnonMoos (talk) 23:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- Do you have evidence for the meaning of the black and white stripes? What I've looked up says the stripes stand for two genders. What you're saying seems to be from the description of the picture, which was written by user Nikki with no citation. The same stripes are present on other LGBT flags, like Agender. I can't find anything on the history of this flag in Scholar or the Misplaced Pages Library. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm referring to obvious associations which would occur to many, many people when seeing a pattern of black and white stripes (regardless of what the original intentions may have been). The BDSM "Ownership flag" (i.e. master/slave relationship flag) was designed by its originator Tanos to have black-and-white stripes to specifically invoke prison uniforms or prison bars, but it's hardly an association suitable to heterosexuality. If heterosexuals were devising a heterosexual flag, it's very hard to see how they would arrive at a design which easily lends itself to such unwanted interpretations, while simultaneously ignoring all the other rich symbolisms available, such as Mars and Venus, pink and blue, moon and sun, etc. etc. etc. AnonMoos (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
