Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:02, 1 March 2007

I think this is a reasonable first cut at a split. However, I do think quite a bit of this needs to be NPOV'd. Right now, it starts off reading like we are going to present a case that these are conclusively forged. And we quite simply don't. The only real evidence here is the testimony of the "experts". So, we need to be careful that we present a balanced view of the range of opinions and statements by them, as well as their expertise and who asked them to comment. I'm not disagreeing that a bunch of them think these are highly suspicious, but I think the case may well be overstated that a consensus opinion is forgery.

Also, if one simply scans the headings on the "blogger evidence", one would assume that everything there is damning. In fact, most of that evidence is crap. I think we ought to find some way to relabel that explicitly as "blogger evidence" to indicate clearly that those aren't the issues that experts have raised. We need to be very clear about this delineation. The casual reader would probably infer that all those issues were raised by competent people.

Asides:

To me a great irony is that some of those issues, actually work against the MS Word hypothesis when you push on them ... like the superscripted th. Because, you'd have to go to a special effort _not_ to get the superscript for some of those cases. And if you're that conscious of it, you'd think you'd at least be consistent in typing up 4 docs. I clearly remember doing carriage rollbacks for superscripted footnotes on Selectrics in high-school typing class, and I'm only in my 30's. Who the hell came up with the idea that you couldn't superscript without a special key? But that's a danger, because you don't want to make the experts look like idiots when it's the bloggers who are. So you just can't jumble this stuff all up. Also, the crap about getting the jargon wrong ... I assume the prime suspect for forgery is Bill Burkett, and he damn well ought to know better than any blogger what jargon TexANG used. I'm not saying the typography guys are wrong, but some of these bloggers could use a remedial course in engaging their brains.

Also, did the fellow who made the "blinking gif" ever do the same for the other documents? I've always wondered because a bunch of the features really don't look like a great match to me. I'd find it a lot more compelling to see tham all done, otherwise it makes me wonder if he "cherry-picked" the only one that sort of looked ok. Just asking for my own curiosity. Derex 22:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

there are a lot of footnotes on this page that do not link to the text. Probably a carryover from the larger article. I will be pruning them shortly. Thatcher131 22:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• Pruned them. Let me know if I accidentally left any orphans. Thatcher131 23:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Planning some updates

I think this is an excellent article and congratulations to everyone who has worked on it! Where this article is weak is that it assumes a lot of prior knowledge of the issue and doesn't stand alone very well (for example it mentions Marian Carr Knox but doesn't say who she is). I would like to make some edits along those lines. I started with the th issue, to open with a background on what it signifies and what is actually in the memos, and then the analysis. I don't believe I have altered NPOV in any significant way, please let me know if you are unhappy. I also edited David Hailey, for two reasons. First, the article said he was accused by bloggers of flasifying his findings but did not provide any specifics. Second it did not acknowledge that Hailey has produced a more recent, more comprehensive report. Again, please let me know if you are unhappy with my work. Thatcher131 23:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Footnote issues

The automated conversion of the citation template left some mistakes. I will try to fix them soon if no one else does. Also, if we place the citations at the text using the <ref></ref> template, the footnote section will automatically number correctly. I will work on this too if no one objects. Thatcher131 07:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• About half the article (the lower half) converted to the new WP:FOOTNOTE method, with the footnotes and links reconfirmed and verified. For the top half I removed the numbers from the notes since they no longer matched the number of the cites in the text (a defect of the {{cite}} and {{note}} method. The number in the text will still take you to the note and the arrow will take you back. I will fix the rest of the notes soon (1-2 days) Thatcher131 06:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

blockquote

the big blockquote under the typography section is not clearly attributed. if it's not actually a quote, the formatting is all wrong and the content probably pov. Derex 01:43, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

• It appears to be adapted from Thomas Phinney quoted here (and footnote 2 in the article) but does not appear to be a direct quote. The whole section is laid out awkwardly as well. The Phinney blockquote should probably be moved and rewritten, or dropped if it is redundant with other material. Part of the problem I think is that this article originally developed day by day in 2004 at Killian documents. When it was forked here it was never cleaned up as a retrospective whole analysis. I will make a few small edits tonight and continue on it after Sunday (some real world interference). I also want to clean up and verify the footnotes as I did on the main Killian documents article. you're welcome to assist of course. Thatcher131 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I took it out and rewrote the opening paragraph of the section. Thatcher131 04:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ones versus Ells

I deleted this section

On September 13, CBS Evening News introduced two new experts to vouch for the authenticity of the memos. One of the individuals, a software designer named Richard Katz, stated that a lower case ell was used in place of the numeral one in the memos. Further, he asserted that this would be difficult to duplicate on a computer today. Mr. Katz did not publicly explain the details of how he made this determination

Mainly, Katz's argument has no bearing on whether the documents are authentic. Even if it is true that the memos used lowercase L's, it is not difficult to dpulicate on a computer, just type an L instead of a "one". The Thornburgh report basically repudiates CBS use of him as an "expert"; CBS made no attempt to verify his qualifications before putting him on the air. As a blow-by-blow account of the controversy as it was happening this was useful but as a retrospective summary it doesn't add anything verifiable to the article. Thatcher131 04:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

• In the Formatting section I took out the links to google searches purporting to show that certain "unofficial" abbreviations are actually used because the claim about official style relates to the style in use in 1972, not the style in use in 2006; also because google search results can change daily and we don't know what might show up at some future date. Also, I removed the comment about the 1994 list of official abbreviations because again, not relevant to 1972 documents. Thatcher131 06:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Curved apostrophes

I think there might be an inconsistency in this statement:
"Bloggers have frequently asserted the documents use curly, or "smart", quotes – distinct left and right double quotes. This feature is common on modern word processors. In fact, the documents use no quotation marks of any kind, either single or double."
According to the second CBS News Document, the word “He’s” has a single quotation mark. Thus the documents do feature quotation marks. =D Jumping cheese 07:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Diablo Systems HyType

There's a brochure at computerhistory.org that dates the HyType 1 (from Xerox, after their purchase of Diablo) as 9-73; I'm inclined to think that it was "cutting edge" then, had been for a year or three, and was probably not found in the TexANG (or any other state's NG!) --htom 05:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC) The modern daisywheel printer was invented at Diablo Systems in 1969, and the chief engineer of that project (David S. Lee) went on to form Qume. --htom 06:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The Diablo Systems Inc. Model 1200 HyType I Printer Maintenance Manual (Pub. No. 82003, 2nd ed., Nov. 1974) indicates that the printer supported a print line of "132 Columns @ 10 characters/in. (3.95 char/cm)" and "158 Columns @ 12 characters/in. (4.76 char/cm)" with column spacing of "60 Positions/in., 1/60th in./increment (23.6 pos./cm 152.4 mm/increment)" (Table 1-1, p. 1-1). The I/O interface included 11 data lines to carry BCD information representing carriage movement values. The high order bit represented the carriage movement direction. The ten low order bits represented the carriage movement distance, "in increments of 1/60th of an inch. Six increments equal 1 character column at 10 characters or columns per inch, while 5 increments equal 1 character column at 12 characters or columns per inch." (p. 4-2). This indicates that the Model 1200 HyType I printer was not capable of supporting the 18-units-per-em system of character widths used in the memos. 71.212.31.95 21:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Blog

I added back the blog info, due to fact that the entire subject revolves around blogs. The reason the controversy existed in the first place was because of the blogs. I'm aware to the "no blog" policy, but does not apply to pages that are heavily dependent and focused on blogs. Removal can qualify as blatant omission of information. Jumping cheese 20:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Our prohibition against blogs as a reliable source does not fail to streatch to articles where information can only be sourced to blogs. Please don't make up policies.JBKramer 21:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:V states that "blogs are largely not acceptable as sources". It not an absolute rule, and certainly does not apply to a subject that is heavily dependent on blogs. Excluding all info from blogs will severely limit having a well balanced page.
Also, refrain from making accusations such as "Please don't make up policies", which has a patronizing tone. I will not add the blog info back until you reply in a reasonable time (to prevent an edit war). ^_^ Jumping cheese 23:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider 32 hours a reasonable amount of time, so I'm placing the blog info back. Jumping cheese 07:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Review WP:RS.

A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

Exceptions to this may be when a well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications, and they are writing under their own name or known pen-name and not anonymously. Another exception may be when an individual publishes their own personal biographical material (they are a subject matter expert in this case). See "Self-published sources in articles about the writers of those sources" later in this guideline.

I do not see any of the afformationed people. There is no policy that says "if it's necessary for a "balanced" article, you can break WP:RS." If the article cannot be balanced without original research, it should be deleted. JBKramer 00:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to disagree again. The info in the blog has been cited in credible news organizations and the authors of the pieces are not anonymous. As I stated earlier, the rule against self-published sources is not absolute. I guess the sources can be resourced to major news publications, but that will be like quoting someone quoting a source. I'll wait for a response before further edits. =D Jumping cheese 08:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to disagree, too. When the secondary sources don't accurately report what the primary sources did or said, they should be bypassed. It is more important that the article be accurate than that it cite tertiary authority. htom 15:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy is not a policy - in fact, it's expressly stated that we do not strive to be accurate, we strive to be verifiable. Blogs are not reliable sources, and as such, are not veriable. JBKramer 15:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Your statement that blogs are not reliable sources -- and implication that they are never reliable -- is at best prejudice and is not supported by the policies you cite. The newspapers you urge us to use instead are known to change their articles without notice or mention of their changes, making them no more reliable or verifiable than blogs. The prohibition against citing blogs is not absolute. In any case, if "verifiability is more important than accuracy" is indeed the goal of Misplaced Pages, why bother? Verifiable incorrectness presented as factual correctness is less than useless, it is anti-useful. Picking random information would then be more useful than Misplaced Pages, as it would sometimes be accurate. htom 16:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

If you guys want a third opinion, I think JBKramer is clearly right on this one.

1. If a blog post were independently notable on its own as a historical document, then you might be able to argue that the blog should be linked as a primary source. At a minimum, this would require that the blog post itself be the subject of non-blog media coverage. (As an example, the original "Buckhead" post regarding the Killian documents received substantial press coverage, so you might be able to make an argument that the post itself might merit a link from the primary Killian documents article as a historically significant document, rather than to establish its contents. Of course, even the use of a self-published document as a primary source would violate the letter of Misplaced Pages's reliable source guideline, so if there was substantial controversy, it would probably just be wiser to cite to reliable source articles discussing Buckhead, and let people google if they want to view the original.)
2. In this case, it looks like Jumping Cheese wants to include a DailyKos post and another blog post not because those specific posts are themselves historically notable, but as support for the facts stated in those posts. IMHO, that's not even a close decision -- it's forbidden both by WP:V and WP:RS.

Just my 2 cents, TheronJ 16:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Blinking GIF

The original blinking gif comparison was by Charles Johnson at LGF. I think he did one other comparison, non-blinking, and one of his users did a high-resolution version of the blinking gif. I suspect that he would do the same for all six, if asked nicely, but those would be orginal research ....

The Smoking Memo post at LGF, with a link to the index of LGF posts about the memos: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12615&only

htom 22:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Desktop Magazine and the Times Roman Font

Does the person who included the info about Desktop Magazine at the end of the "Proportional Fonts" section have the article and does the article specify the filenames of the Times Roman font in question? Was it a PC font? In particular, was it TrueType? A comment at Tim Blair's blog on Sept. 14 2004 (direct link to comment) claimed that the Killian memos font looked most like a PC TrueType font Times Roman and gave the filenames:
timr65w.ttf Times Bold
timr66w.ttf Times Bold Italic
timr46w.ttf Times Italic
timr45w.ttf Times Roman (screen name: Times)
74.72.218.159 03:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

David Hailey

I note that some editors seem to think that David Hailey has proved the documents to be genuine. Anyone who wants to go on believing that should not click on these links.

Dr Hailey's most recent work on this topic claims that "the memos were typed", but never even tries to explain the pseudo-kerning, varied space sizes etc. (In order to produce those documents on a typewriter, the typist would have to position the paper by hand before almost every character, and a simple memo would take hours to type!)

Cheers, CWC(talk) 15:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

blog sourced info

If the information I'm removing isn't just some guys webpage, please show how it meets WP:RS. Thanks. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Are the revert warriors just going to revert, or respond here? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

is a link to the CV of the individual with the weblog. I do not see any typesetting experience. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

(The heading is wrong: Dr Newcomer's website is not a blog.)

Dr Joseph Newcomer was one of the pioneers of digital typography. From his résumé:

Pioneered desktop publishing — wrote one of the earliest word processing programs for a high-resolution xerographic printer (the “XGP”, ca. 1970, was a predecessor to today’s laser printers).

From http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm:

I am one of the pioneers of electronic typesetting. I was doing work with computer typesetting technology in 1972 (it actually started in late 1969), and I personally created one of the earliest typesetting programs for what later became laser printers, but in 1970 when this work was first done, lasers were not part of the electronic printer technology (my way of expressing this is “I was working with laser printers before they had lasers”, which is only a mild stretch of the truth). We published a paper about our work (graphics, printer hardware, printer software, and typesetting) in one of the important professional journals of the time (D.R. Reddy, W. Broadley, L.D. Erman, R. Johnsson, J. Newcomer, G. Robertson, and J. Wright, "XCRIBL: A Hardcopy Scan Line Graphics System for Document Generation," Information Processing Letters (1972, pp.246-251)). I have been involved in many aspects of computer typography, including computer music typesetting (1987-1990). I have personally created computer fonts, and helped create programs that created computer fonts. At one time in my life, I was a certified Adobe PostScript developer, and could make laser printers practically stand up and tap dance. I have written about Microsoft Windows font technology in a book I co-authored, and taught courses in it. I therefore assert that I am a qualified expert in computer typography.

Also, the text you keep removing about sub-character spacing, negative escapement etc is common knowledge. Please leave it alone. Dr Newcomer is far better qualified than Dr Hailey, so please also leave the link to (and quote from) Newcomer's rebuttal of Hailey alone. (Furthermore, please allow other editors more than 10 minutes to respond to your comments in future.) Thanks, CWC(talk) 23:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Dr Joseph Newcomer

Hipocrite (talk · contribs) has put a Template:self-published tag on this article. I'm guessing that he objects to using Dr Joseph Newcomer as a source. (The complete edit summary was "more blogshit". Since Dr Newcomer is not a blogger and his analysis is cogent and convincing, that's 2 unfortunatenesses in 3 syllables.) Let's look at Dr Newcomer's writings in the light of WP:RS. Although Dr N has published scholarly works, the relevant writings are not peer-reviewed, so the Non-scholarly sources section applies.

1. Attributability - Yes
2. Expertise - Yes, see #blog sourced info (sic) above
3. Bias - He writes "I am not a fan of George Bush", FWIW
4. Editorial oversight - No
5. Replicability - Yes
6. Declaration of sources - Yes
7. Use of confidential sources - None used, so no problem
8. Corroboration - by Dr. Philip Bouffard, Peter Tytell (CBS's own analyst!) and others
9. Recognition by other reliable sources - quoted as a recognised expert by the Washington Post here and here, and by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette here
10. Age of the source and rate of change of the subject - Not relevant here
11. Persistence (of web links) - No problem here

Of the 9 relevant criteria, Dr Newcomer satisfies 8. That's a pass.
Cheers, CWC(talk) 16:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You appear to have missed "Self-published sources as secondary sources" - "Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources." Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

And you appear to have missed WP:V#SELF - "Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist." Jinxmchue 19:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

He's neither. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I will agree that he does not appear to be a professional journalist (although what that has to do with the topic I don't understand.) He is, however, a computer science professional who I, at least, knew of before Bush announced that he was running for President. Dr. Newcomer's CV -- ::::http://www.flounder.com/resume.htm As well, he's been cited by several of the mainstream press:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18982-2004Sep13.html

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/640pgolk.asp?pg=2

If you want to maintain that his informed opinion is not relevant, you have to do better than what you've done. Because you don't agree with him doesn't make his informed opinion either wrong or unverified; it appears to be both correct and verified.

htom 20:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? You're saying there are mass media sources that will let me avoid blogs? Done. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:25, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in the mania for verification, other things can be found. Of course, linking to the WP and WS is a dangerous activity, as both have been known to change pages without noting that they've done so. In any case, the page(s) provided by Newcomer are not a blog, although it is self-published. Please remove the warning tag, unless you have some other complaint. htom 20:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I was working on fixing it as you were commenting. I was unable to find mention of kerning in the mass-media sources - if you have that, please include it also. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

More importantly, it seems to me that we are using Dr Newcomer as a primary source which WP:RS#Types of source material defines as "a document or person providing direct evidence of a certain state of affairs; in other words, a source very close to the situation you are writing about. The term mainly refers to a document produced by a participant in an event or an observer of that event."

Another issue is that Appendix 4 of the Thornbourgh-Boccardi report is probably a better primary source, but is much harder to use because (1) that PDF does not allow copy and paste (!) and (2) it is written in indirect language. For example, the second para begins:

Tytell concluded, for the reasons described below, that (i) the relevant portion of the Superscript Exemplar was produced on an Olympia manual typewriter, (ii) the Killian documents were not produced on an Olympia manual typewriter and (iii) the Killian documents were produced on a computer in Times New Roman typestyle.

Hence my preference for using Dr Newcomer as a primary source. However, if necessary, I will type in experts from Appendix 4. Cheers, CWC(talk) 04:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Please use the report as opposed to some guys blog. Hipocrite - «Talk» 08:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Please explain why you think the paper published by Dr. Newcomer is "some guy's blog" while Dr. Hailey's paper is not. htom 09:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Would you like his paper excised also? It looked like an academic paper to me. Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather not excise either, thank you. I prefer the "dated notebook" of the scientist, unpolished, presentation of Dr. Newcomer to the well-dressed handwaving of Dr. Hailey. I don't think that either presentation is a blog. htom 14:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

(Some days later:) I've WP:BOLDLY put back a much shorter version of the argument from "pseudo-kerning", citing Dr Newcomer as the source. Here's a copy:

Inter-character spacing

Joseph Newcomer, an expert cited by critics of the memos, claims that the memos display a simple alternative to kerning characteristic of TrueType fonts but not available on any office equipment in 1972. For example, in words containing "fr", TrueType moves the "r" left to tuck it in under the top part of the "f".<ref>{{cite web | title=The Bush "Guard memos" are forgeries! | url=http://www.flounder.com/bush2.htm | author=Joseph Newcomer | date=2004-09-15 | accessdate=2007-01-29 }}</ref>

Please note that my version uses Newcomer as a primary source, and so plainly is quite acceptable per WP:RS and WP:V#SELF. Cheers, CWC(talk) 17:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Newcomer is not an acceptable primary source. Per WP:ATT "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation you are writing about." How is Newcomer very close to the situation? It appears to me that he downloaded the documents like anyone could and looked at them like anyone could. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the policy states that "Primary source material that has been published by a reliable source may be used for the purposes of attribution in Misplaced Pages." Self-published sources are only reliable in articles about themselves. This is not an article about Newcomer. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I contend that

1. Joseph Newcomer is very close to the situation that "Joseph Newcomer ... claims ...".
2. Self-published sources are acceptable if from a "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise", which Newcomer is.
3. Newcomer indeed just "downloaded the documents like anyone could and looked at them like anyone could" — but he saw clear signs of forgery most people wouldn't, because of his deep knowledge of pseudo-kerning in TrueType fonts.

So IMO he is acceptable as a primary source for what he wrote. Two more important points:

(A) If anyone were to refute Newcomer's claims, his reputation and his business would suffer. He has a lot at stake here, so Misplaced Pages policies aimed at anonymous bloggers are much less applicable.

(B) There are other sources for this pseudo-kerning stuff. The only reason I keep arguing for using Newcomer is that it would be even more work to Google-and-winnow for an alternative source.

The article is going to end up mentioning that the "fr" (and "fe", and "fo") sequences in the memos could not have been produced by a typewriter ... because, guess what, that's the plain truth. If we don't cite Dr Newcomer, we'll just cite some other expert.

Cheers, CWC(talk) 18:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Joseph Newcomer is not very close to the situation. He is a guy who downloaded the documents and looked at them.
2. Joseph Newcomer has not been published in typeography... ever. He is not an expert.
3. Joseph Newcomer has no expert knowledge of "TrueType fonts," nor does he state such.
4. Joseph Newcomer's buisness of being a computer consultant would not be harmed by someone arguing about politics on the internet with him.
5. Please provide reliable sources for your claims. You have now stated, for the record, that they exist. How about someone that isn't self published? I'll return the fact tags untill such a person is found. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Newcomer is really, really close to the situation that Newcomer says the documents are forgeries. In fact, he's as close to that situation as anyone could be, donchathink?
2. Newcomer has published in typography. I put a citation in the article (diff); Hipocrite removed it! Much more relevant is chapter 15 of Win32 Programming.
3. Newcomer is an expert in TrueType fonts. See chapter 15 of Win32 Programming, again. He has repeatedly stated that he has expert knowledge of using (though not of designing) TrueType fonts, and he has repeatedly demonstrated that he does have such knowledge. (Look at how well he uses "Font Explorer", one of the most advanced FOSS tools for examining TrueType fonts! If only we could see what the guy who wrote "Font Explorer" says about the Killian memos ... oh, wait.)
4. Newcomer's business of training and consultancy would be harmed, as would his reputation, if anyone could point out any major flaws in his arguments. Lots of people have tried; they all failed.

Since I stated quite plainly that finding another source would be lots of work, I regard Hipocrite's peremptory demands that I do so as baiting.

I pointed out at the start of this section that Newcomer satisfies 8 out of 9 relevant criteria for a WP:RS. No one has argued otherwise. Hipocrite responded with a statement that no-one else has found convincing, or even (AFAICT) relevant. I say that we treat Newcomer as a RS until someone shows a flaw in my earlier argument. What do other editors think? CWC(talk) 20:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You wrote the following over 10 days ago - "Hence my preference for using Dr Newcomer as a primary source. However, if necessary, I will type in experts from Appendix 4. " I asked you to type in. You have not done so. Why are you so adverse to using an actualy reliable source as opposed to someguysblog? Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thirty seconds with google brings the non-self published: http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0744118

Accession Number : AD0744118 Title : XCRIBL: A Hardcopy Scan Line Graphics System for Document Generation, Corporate Author : CARNEGIE-MELLON UNIV PITTSBURGH PA DEPT OF COMPUTER SCIENCE Personal Author(s) : Reddy,R. ; Broadley,B. ; Erman,L. ;Newcomer,J. ; Robertson,G. Report Date : 28 MAR 1972 Pagination or Media Count : 69 Abstract : XCRIBL is a system developed at CMU for generating hard copy computer output of arbitrary type fonts, graphics, and grey-scale images using a Xerox Graphic Printer (XGP). XCRIBL can be used to generate documents approaching the quality of printed text with the use of a document generation language (XOFF or PUB) and a character set design program (BILOS). Textual and graphic information to be printed is shipped in its raw form from the host computer (PDP-10) to a mini-computer (PDP-11) which acts as an intelligent channel controlling the XGP. Careful design of the data structures and the hardware interface permit the mini-computer to generate each scan line as needed without having to resort to a brute force solution of generating a bit-image for the whole page (3.5 million bits) for off-line printing. Variable width characters and the ability to mix text and graphics distinguish the present solution from the known simpler schemes for scan line generation. (Author)

Descriptors : (*DATA PROCESSING, GRAPHICS), (*COMPUTER PROGRAMMING, INSTRUCTION MANUALS), INPUT OUTPUT DEVICES, OPTICAL IMAGES, INTERFACES, CONTROL SEQUENCES, SYSTEMS ENGINEERING Subject Categories : COMPUTER PROGRAMMING AND SOFTWARE COMPUTER HARDWARE Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

Close enough? htom 20:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This isn't an article about scan line graphics on the pdp-11. I'm begging that we use published reliable reports - like newspapers, magazines, journal articles, government reports, stuff like that, not someguysblogs. I hate blogs. They lie - dissemble, are regularly garbage and more ofen than not totally innacurate. I want every blog mention removed from this encyclopedia. You find me a blog being used as a source, and I will delete the blog sourced garbage. I want the blogs out of this article, but people keep puting some computer consultants website back in, even though they say the information is an exact copy of information in a reliable source. Why can't we just quote the reliable source? Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You are under the impression that stinet.dtic.mil is a site that hosts blogs? This is a reference in a military database to a published paper. Someone who was in at the START of digital publishing would have indeed probably worked on a PDP-11, Windows had not been invented then. There was a whole world of computing before Microsoft. Your hatred of blogs is clouding your reading comprehension, perhaps. htom 21:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubt he wrote a paper about the pdp-11 in the mid 1970s.

Hipocrite asks me:

Why are you so adverse to using an actualy reliable source as opposed to someguysblog?

To summarize points made repeatedly on this page:

1. It's not a blog.
2. He's not just some guy: the Washington Post and other RSs called him an expert.
3. Newcomer is a reliable source. No-one has even tried to rebut my 8-out-of-9 argument, just dodged it.

I say that we simply treat Newcomer as a WP:RS in TrueType "pseudo-kerning". Barring reasoned objections that address all my previous arguments without relying on misquoting of Misplaced Pages policies, I'll edit accordingly in a day or two. CWC(talk) 21:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

1. Attributability - Yes - agreed
2. Expertise - Yes, see #blog sourced info (sic) above - dubious - while he is clearly an expert on the pdp-11, he is unpublished with respect to modern typography or typography in use in the 1970's away from the pdp-11.
3. Bias - He writes "I am not a fan of George Bush", FWIW - disagree - his statements to his bias are not verifiable.
4. Editorial oversight - No - agreed - none whatsoever. Not a smidge. He could make up every word he wrote and no editor would say naught abotu it.
5. Replicability - Yes - Disagree - has not been replicated, has it?
6. Declaration of sources - Yes - Disagree - has no sources except primary document. This is not a declaration of sources, it's a declaration that he used no sources.
7. Use of confidential sources - None used, so no problem
8. Corroboration - by Dr. Philip Bouffard, Peter Tytell (CBS's own analyst!) and others - disagree - they do not corroborate his statements about TrueType, do they? They all think the document is a fraud? Fine. He is used to make specific factual claims.
9. Recognition by other reliable sources - quoted as a recognised expert by the Washington Post here and here, and by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette here - disagree - he is treated as a cute sidebar by all of these.
10. Age of the source and rate of change of the subject - Not relevant here - disagree. Flounder.com has no reputation.
11. Persistence (of web links) - No problem here - disagree. Flounder.com has no reputation.

I do not believe this qualifies as an unquestionably relevant source and ask that you find another one. Any other corroborating source of unquestionable reliablity, please. Just one. You said you had some appendix 4. Please use it. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:43, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, dear. An initial response:

#2: The 1972 paper and the book chapter deal directly with computer typography.

#6: He had one source (as H admits before contradicting himself) and he declared it.

#9: ("cute sidebar all three")

      He was quoted more than any non-CBS expert in the WaPo items and was only topic of PG item!

      How on earth did H expect to get away with something that blatant?!

#5, #10, #11: more irrelevancies.

All my other arguments: H didn't even try.

Baiting rating: C+ for effort, F for quality. Cheers, CWC(talk) 22:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

ok, let's edit war. Hipocrite - «Talk» 22:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Nah, let's not. Let's see if other editors think Dr Newcomer is a RS, then try to reach a consensus. (But I have a strange feeling that unanimous agreement might be a bit out of reach ...) I see no need to hurry. Cheers, CWC(talk) 23:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, let's not edit war. I am quite against nuking Newcomer from this article. Arkon 01:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Who, other than Tytell, Hailey, Phinney, and Newcomer are there? Where are all the other reliable sources i.e. typography experts, named and on the record with an analysis of the documents? You have to write the article with the sources you have, not the sources you wish you had. Is there a more detailed analysis of the typography of the documents on the Internet better than Newcomer's? patsw 03:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

When the furor erupted, newspapers asked a whole bunch of experts (and not-so-experts) for their opinions. I suspect that Newcomer's bush2.htm is the best analysis, but I'm sure that other experts mention the pseudo-kerning. CWC(talk) 14:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

WaPo cited Newcomer

In this article, the WaPo cited Newcomer on inter-character spacing:

One telltale sign in the CBS documents is the overlapping character combinations, such as "fr" or "fe," said Joseph M. Newcomer, an adjunct professor with Carnegie Mellon University. Blown-up portions of the CBS documents show that the top of the "f" overlaps the beginning of the next letter, a feat that was not possible even on the most sophisticated typewriters available in 1972.

Is there any reason we cannot use this as a WP:RS for the "Inter-character spacing" issue? (I feel really dumb for not noticing this until today.)

Perhaps we should reference the WaPo article and put "See also Newcomer's detailed analysis" at the end of the footnote?

Which reminds me: the references are in a real mess, with URLs as titles and independent references to the same sources. I've started tidying them up. (Take a look at reference .) I'll finish the job in a few days, unless some kind person does it first. Cheers, CWC(talk) 14:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newcomer is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a citeable expert. His website regarding the Killian memos is laughably wrong on key technical points, including completely omitting the vast array of proportionally spacing word processing sysems available in the early-mid-70's, most notably those using Diablo daisywheel printers. He labeled the memos as forgeries a week before he even looked at a print sample, a wedding program, from an IBM Executive, a one time very common typewriter that could proportionally print, super/subscript with small typefaces and actually had come available in with a choice of fonts in the form of interchangeble typebars. His site is very, very long on words but very, very short on actual comparisons between his supposed Word replicas and the original memos, making the whole thing utterly unscientific and worthless as a useful source. -BC 65.78.25.69 17:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Link

So it's the link you really want in the article? What's your relation to the site? Hipocrite - «Talk» 12:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

(I guess this is addressed to me, following this edit.) I think including the link adds to the article (and conforms to Misplaced Pages rules), but it's not essential. As I tried to explain in the edit summary, since we mention the Weekly Standard article praising Dr Newcomer's analysis, I think we should link to that analysis. That's all.

I live on a farm in Australia and have nothing to do with Dr Newcomer, his company or his website.

For what it's worth, I think our combined edits have improved the "Dr. David Hailey's analysis" section quite a lot.

Cheers, CWC(talk) 13:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Blogs as sources

Blogs are not acceptable as sources about questions of fact. Inserting statements of the blog, and then stating "it's his opinion" does not get around WP:ATT - if no one reported the opinion in a reliable source, it doesn't exist. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Blogs are reliable sources for what the blogger wrote. The statement "logs are not acceptable as sources" is true for most articles, but not for all articles. In a small fraction of articles, things written by bloggers can be important and notable.

In an article about a political blogger, the blog is a RS for the blogger's opinions, for what the blogger has written, etc. See Glenn Greenwald#Views on other matters for a good example.

In articles about controversies in which bloggers played an important role, which blogger wrote what when can be important, and blogs are good sources there. In this article, a blanket no-blogs rule would exclude citing the LGF post with the blinking GIF in this article; I say that's a reductio ad absurdum proof that a complete and unconditional ban on blogs as sources is unwise.

Of course, that leaves lots of room for healthy argument about whether a particular blog post is relevant, notable, etc. OTOH, as Hipocrite rightly points out, using blogs to smuggle opinions etc into articles is not acceptable. Cheers, CWC(talk) 23:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Dr David Hailey

Remember Dr David Hailey? Holds a "PhD in technical communication"? So he'd know all about this stuff wouldn't he?

Wrong.

His PhD was in "Language and Rhetoric, Theory of Criticism" and was titled "The Objective Metaphor: An Examination of Objects as Metaphors and Metaphors as Objects".

Not much about fonts and typefaces there!

I've fixed the article. CWC(talk) 18:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, I tracked down the edit which introduced the "PhD in technical communication" idea. CWC(talk) 21:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)