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{{softredirect|User:Br'er Rabbit}} ; )
== Featured lists ==
==MfD nomination of ]==
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 23:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
==MfD nomination of ]==
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 23:45, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
==MfD nomination of ]==
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 23:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
==MfD nomination of ]==
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 23:47, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
==MfD nomination of ]==
], a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for ]. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at ] and please be sure to ] with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). You are free to edit the content of ] during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you.<!-- Template:MFDWarning --> ] (]) 23:59, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
== Nomination for deletion of Template:Blenheim Palace overhead1 ==
]] has been ]. You are invited to comment on the discussion at ].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> ] (]) 18:50, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
== ] of ] ==
]


The article ] has been ]&#32;because of the following concern:
] --] (]) 13:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
<blockquote>This isn't even about mobile payments in Indonesia, it's about a particular vendor of credit for mobile phones and the services they offer. Said vendor fails ] due to ] in ], ] sources. Its products fail the ] and the ] on the same basis.</blockquote>
:Hehe, I wondered how long it would be before you rapped me over the knuckles for adding font-weight:normal. But from that thread you can see the dismay that bold row headers causes. I just hope TheDJ's proposal for an extra 'wikilist' class gets taken up, as that would give us freedom to get on with adding row headers (which is the big improvement that we can make), and just applying the extra class to restore the visual status quo. Is it time for a Village Pump discussion on what the default format for a row header cell should be? --] (]) 23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
:: and I knew you knew it was less than ideal. I'm not keen in The DJ's proposal as-is. I see that there's a strong push-back and I think some DISCOG pages got their own take on some of this stuff implemented, which sparked the threads that TRM started. Thing is, row-headers both ''are'' appropriate semantically ''and'' they should, for the most part, have the look of headings so people understand their relationship to the rest of the row; that means bold and a tad darker background. We want Googlebot, user agents ''and users'' to be aware of the role of these cells. Hiding the styling indicative of their role is less than helpful (it's lying, really). Cheers, ] 23:36, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
::: I expected no less. So how do we convince the rest of Misplaced Pages that bold/darker is the right way for row headers? By the way, I still think that we need the ability to override those visual effects because of tables like this: ]. As you can see, from a database pov, the unique key is actually the first column (the number of the award), but it's much less useful to a screen reader than the second column (name of the recipient), even though that's not ''guaranteed'' unique. My instinct would be to mark up the second column as the row headers; I know WCAG accepts that, and JAWS deals with it without problems. If that's the case, then I think having the second column bold and dark would cause uproar, so it might be a worth a tiny white lie in those circumstances.
::: Have you seen , btw? A nice, clear explanation of how a screen reader is used to read a table, and the malarkey needed to get any sense out of a table that's poorly marked-up. It adds some weight to the argument for having table captions as well. I've only just got it clear in my mind that a JAWS user can call up a list of all tables on a page and jump straight to one that they select - but that is only going to make sense if the table has a caption. Finally, I've been experimenting with table summaries, but I think that those are going to be as hard to sell as ALT text on images. Any thoughts? --] (]) 02:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
::::Thanks for the interesting link. As for table summaries, you're , so please don't go any further in this direction. See ]. A table summary is meant for complicated tables, when they have to be used in a particular and unexpected fashion. In this case, the table summary is meant to explain how the table should be used. It is completely different from a table caption. When a table summary is used, there is still the need for a table caption: they are complementary. Yours, ] (]) 13:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:::: Careful, Ralph, your diff will end up immortalized as a thinly-veiled personal attack on that MOS tutorial. ] 14:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::No there is no offense nor personal attack. But there is a difference between discussing best practices and making experiments, and showing potentially wrong examples to users that in good faith. The risk is that the user sees opposing best practices, and people at WP:ACCESS with confusing guidelines and all. Users might then distrust the WP:ACCESS guidelines. And trust here is already fragile since the disaster with alt text. So let's be careful, please. Yours, ] (]) 14:26, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::: It's all in the eye of the offended and the intent of the offensive. ] 14:35, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::: It's true that those edits to List of Denver RTD light rail stations were in the nature of an experiment on how summaries may be used, but I'd flatly refute the assertion that I'm making a wrong use of them. WCAG only suggests where they are most useful, and is not proscriptive of where they may be used. In each case, the summaries provide either (1) a description of the contents of the table, or (2) a description of the table's organization. I accept that H37 prefers the latter, but for tables that have no captions, the former is still better than having neither. Nevertheless, I agree my summary for the legend table was over the top (it was the whole table!), so I'll cut that down. In any case, let's remember that there is a lot of resistance to using captions. We can go some way towards alleviating that by judicious use of summaries, and nobody is going to object to those.
:::::: I actually think that the guidance at ''Providing a summary'' is good, although I'd alter one paragraph thus:
::::::* "Note that a summary is not needed in <del>most</del> <ins>many</ins> of Misplaced Pages's tables. The summary is <ins>most</ins> useful when the table has a complex structure (for example, when there are several sets of row or column headers, or when there are multiple groups of columns or rows). <del>The</del> <ins>A</ins> summary <del>may</del> <ins>describing the organization would</ins> also be helpful for simple data tables that contain many columns or rows of data."
:::::: The example there is fine, but it represents only one use of the summary element – that of explaining how to use the table. WCAG only gives that example, so we'd have to concoct others ourselves. In many cases on Misplaced Pages, we are not dealing with a 'lookup' table - i.e. one containing homogeneous data (as in the example), and we ought to be giving more guidance to editors on how to present screen readers with information about the organisation of the data in the table they are about to navigate. --] (]) 15:42, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be ].
== Yo... man... wow... ==


You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your ] or on ].
This is . Wow...


Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{Tlc|proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the ], but other ]es exist. In particular, the ] process can result in deletion without discussion, and ] allows discussion to reach ] for deletion.<!-- Template:Proposed deletion notify --> '''<span style="font-family: Arial">] ]</span>''' 11:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
<span style="text-shadow:#91219E 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 05:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


: Did you know for how long the editor is banned, sadly? - Lovely edit notice, no? --] (]) 11:55, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
seen it ;) ] 27:63, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


{{User QAIbox
If you're going to falsify your time stamp, do it right... <span style="text-shadow:#91219E 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 08:40, 30 February 2011 (UTC)</span>
| title = Awesome
:Oh, and thank you for archiving that monster of a page. I can actually click on the scroll bar now! <span style="text-shadow:#91219E 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 08:41, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
| image = Cscr-featured.svg

| image_upright = 0.35
== Discographies style ==
| bold = ]

How is "regressive"? ] (] · ]) 03:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
:(Pardon the interjection from a TPW) It's because many tables can be made sortable – which obviously becomes increasingly more useful on larger tables. It would need the double header to be resolved for it to work for your table, but you can see what I mean in this cut-down version:

:{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders sortable" style="text-align:center;" border="1"
|+ Singles, with year released and certifications
! scope="col" style="width:16em;"| Title
! scope="col" | Year
! scope="col" style="width:10em;" class="unsortable" | ]
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
| 1993
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
|1994
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
|1994
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
| 1995
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"<br /><span style="font-size:85%;">(featuring ])</span>
|1996
|style="text-align:left;"|
UK: Gold<ref>25</ref><br />
US: Gold<ref>26</ref>
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
|1996
|style="text-align:left;"|
UK: Platinum<ref>27</ref><br />
AUS: 2× Platinum<ref>28</ref>
|- class="sortbottom"
|align="center" colspan="4" style="font-size:90%"| key goes here
|}
:But if you have cells spanning more than one row, the sort won't work. I know it's not terribly relevant to the table as it stands now, but spanning the years is a step backward from being able to be make these tables sortable. I'm pretty sure that's all Jack means by "regressive". Feel free to delete this post if it's not helpful --] (]) 04:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

::I'm not sure if I should reply here... but oh well. If you ''are not'' going to span just so that you can sort the table, here is what you get (try sorting chart positions):

::{| class="wikitable sortable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;" border="1"
|+ List of singles, with selected chart positions and certifications, showing year released and album name
! scope="col" rowspan="2" style="width:16em;"| Title
! scope="col" rowspan="2"| Year
! scope="col" colspan="7"| Peak chart positions
! scope="col" rowspan="2" style="width:10em;"| ]
! scope="col" rowspan="2"| Album
|-
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>18</ref>
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>20</ref>
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>22</ref>
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>248</ref>
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>19</ref>
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>21</ref>
! scope="col" style="width:3em;font-size:90%;"|]<br /><ref>23</ref>
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
| 1993
| 8
| —
| —
| —
| 3
| —
| —
|
| rowspan="4"|'']''
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
|1994
| 4
| 45
| —
| 4
| 3
| 7
| —
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
|1994
| 13
| 24
| —
| —
| 7
| —
| —
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
| 1995
| 15
| —
| —
| —
| 3
| 5
| —
|
|-
! scope="row"|"]"<br /><span style="font-size:85%; <!--font-weight:normal;-->">(featuring ])</span>
|1996
| 1
| 22
| 1
| 6
| 2
| 1
| 30
|style="text-align:left;"|
UK: Gold<ref>25</ref><br />
US: Gold<ref>26</ref>
| rowspan="2"|'']''
|-
! scope="row"|"]"
|1996
| 1
| 2
| 1
| 8
| 1
| 1
| —
|style="text-align:left;"|
UK: Platinum<ref>27</ref><br />
AUS: 2× Platinum<ref>28</ref>
|- class="sortbottom"
|align="center" colspan="11" style="font-size:90%"| "—" denotes releases that did not chart.
|}

::So what is gained from not spanning? We may be able to sort titles alphabetically, but we create a lot more work, having to make the other columns unsortable, and we make the tables ugly and repetitive with respect to the years. I don't really see the point...
::Anyway, if you are going to remove the spanning, at least add the sort function to the model. Regards, ] (] · ]) 06:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

::: There is no immediate gain, and as I said above, your table would need a modified structure for sorting to work. I was only trying to explain Jack's use of the word "regressive", i.e. if you span the ''data'' as well, then you move further away from being able to increase the functionality. If you feel that repeating the year makes the table ugly, then that's a valid personal preference. I just don't think it's a good idea to express that in an example that others may copy and build upon in other tables. Cheers --] (]) 13:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

: 'merging cells' is presentational effect. What it really amounts to is the ''omission'' of data from tables. My undo of your removal of several years from table-rows was a step in the right direction. I *know* that there are other problems with tables such as the broken one you've pasted above. See <tt>class="sortbottom"</tt>, for example. ] 18:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

== Regarding the Edit Summary ==

"Failed Prototype A: are those Phillips or Flathead screws?"
:Clearly, they are industrial rivets. What else would you put on a fancy gold plaque. Seriously though, those are there because I wanted to pad the left and right of the box but not the top or bottom.
:As you can see, I am in the market for a new sig (that doesn't annoy anyone on ArbCom.) Let's be blunt though. This is ''not'' a rush job at all. That being said, if you have any fun ideas, feel free to float them by me. You do good work. <span style="text-shadow:#91219E 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 01:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

== Pig head on a stick ==

Well, it looks like we can all safely worship 'plainrowheaders' in its latest incarnation. It certainly seems to have brought peace to the wiki-world. We disruptives can merrily continue to markup tables properly and nobody need be any the wiser. Except ... the only way to tell they're marked up properly is to examine the output, or change our own myskin.css. Of course then we won't see how it looks to everybody else – but that was the point. Just updated my monobook.css; I'll see how it goes. Shouldn't be too long before somebody marks up every cell in a table as a header.

Speaking of which, I bet you've seen this before, but I just came across it:
{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders"
|+ Is this a bug
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHa
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHb
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHc
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHd
|-
! scope="row" | RH1 || Data 1b || Data 1c || Data 1d
|-
! scope="row" | RH2 || Data 2b || Data 2c || Data 2d
|}
Check the output, <lol />. How did that happen? Unscoped TH, plucked from ... nowhere. My modified monobook is starting to payback the effort already.

You like vertical format, so there's some ammunition. Horizontal screws up; vertical (below) is fine.
{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders"
|+ This is ok
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHa
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHb
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHc
! scope="col" style="width: 10em;" | CHd
|-
! scope="row" | RH1
| Data 1b
| Data 1c
| Data 1d
|-
! scope="row" | RH2
| Data 2b
| Data 2c
| Data 2d
|}
Of course, it is sufficient to have the !scope= on its own line, but the parsing of the wiki-markup is seriously fubar. --] (]) 12:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

: Ya, this is one of the reasons the vertical format is better. There may be a syntactic trick I'm missing, but splitting the cell-types make sense from purely a readability perspective. Cheers, ] 18:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

== request ==

Hey Jack,
I'd like help in turning this section into a table that will show the election outcomes. ]. I'd appreciate any help. Thanks. ] (]) 17:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

: The ] called. He'd like his ] back. ] 06:00pm, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
::Hey Jack, very cool. Is this something that you could put into one of those sortable box type tables like you do for the actors films? You know, alpha by state, alpha by candidate?] (]) 20:51, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
::: You're free to use those as example, but I'm not much interested in attending this teabagging party. ] 20:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
::::No problem. Looking them over, I was thinking I could probably just copy the template and plug in the information. Thanks again.] (]) 21:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

== Since you're the table man in town... ==

Hey, you know a thing about tables, right?

Okay, so I have two tables on ], which transcludes to my main user page. Can you force the two tables to have the same column widths? By that, I mean that the "Recipient" section is narrower on the top table than the "Presenter" is on the bottom, and therefore all the other lines don't match up cleanly. I don't mind that "Citation" is wider than "Award", that's acutally a good thing, but I want the "Citation" on the Awards Out table and the "Citation" on the Awards In table to be the same size, etc.

I have a tad of OCD, so this situation bothers me more than it should. Any help would be appreciated,

<span style="text-shadow:#CC1100 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 18:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
:(TPW) Try that, but I didn't see any transclusion. --] (]) 22:17, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
::I figured out where you were going with it and tweaked with it until it worked. It was simple enough once I knew what I was looking for. Thanks Ralph/RexxS <span style="text-shadow:#59A678 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 00:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Well, almost. If the column contains text, then the best unit to use is 'em' because it varies with the size and metrics of the font being used, while 'pt' and 'px' do not. Not all users see Misplaced Pages in the same font as you do (since a client-side local style sheet may override the values used by Misplaced Pages) and different operating systems may substitute the Windows font-family by their own. For images, of course, it is sensible to specify a column width in pixels. --] (]) 00:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
::::Well em wasn't working for me, and I'm not sure why, but as long as it ''looks'' good, I don't care what format it's in. If you can get it to look nice and use em, please do, I'd rather it work for everyone, if possible. <span style="text-shadow:#FFA500 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 00:37, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

== Bonjour ==

<poem>
Je vous remercie,
Votre utile, donner les moyens,
Et comment votre cœur généreux
Votre affiche désintéressement.

Je vous remercie pour votre gentillesse,
Je n'oublierai pas de sitôt;
Vous êtes l'un des plus belles personnes
J'ai jamais rencontré.
</poem>
--] (]) 17:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

: terima kasih ;) ] 17:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
:: Looks like you've ], there.&nbsp;] 10:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
::: I recommend ]s. ;) Cheers, ] 16:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
::::

== Filmography Table Fix Question ==

Hi Jack! Onto more important things than trolls and socks: would you have a look here and see if you could lend your expertise? 1948-49 is all screwed up, and 1962 is wrong as well. Someone added a film incorrectly, and I tried to add it the right way, but obviously something's still very wrong there. I'd appreciate any help/advice you're willing to give, and thanks. ] ] 06:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks :> ] ] 06:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
:: Not done; don't {{ec}} me ;) ] 06:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

== Best AfD ever? ==

You might get a kick out of ]. Probably best if you don't comment there since the Colonel and I have been at odds today and I don't want this to be seen as canvassing. Still, it is kind of hard to canvass someone when you have no idea what article has been nominated for deletion. <font face="Herculanum" color="black">]</font> 06:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

: Sorry, I ''did'' comment, but I'll stipulate that I'd seen it before you posted here and that I intended to get back to it. Cheers, ] 16:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
::I agree with your comments there, and decided to take it to drama board. <font face="Herculanum" color="black">]</font> 18:38, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
:::Ah, AFD...like RFA only an article gets torn to shreds instead of a person. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">]]</span> 18:45, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

:::: It's all of a piece; we call it the toxic-wiki. Cheers, ] 18:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

:::::Looks like Jimbo's trying to change that. Read his talk page as of late? Oh, I wrote my first article from scratch (other "new" article so far was a redirect). ], have a read when you feel like dealing with not-drama. :) <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">]]</span> 18:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

:::::: I've read some it; enough to have a post in one section. See John's comments, though; it's the wrong venue and that skews the whole thing. I'll the ] and have a read. Cheers, ] 18:59, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
:::::: aren't you daring ;) tip: drop the vandal-fighter verbiage as it doesn't sell well with many. It's been overplayed and is part of how we got some inappropriate admins. Best wises, ] 17:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== Cannot center something ==

Would you mind centering ]? I'm an idiot at these things. Thanks!--] - ] 03:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

:Thanks. That made it much more prominent.--] - ] 15:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

:: glad to help, ] 07:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

I appreciate your "nits" at ]. :) ''']''' '']'' 21:20, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

: is mah job ;) ] 07:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== odd find ==
No idea now how (or why) I got there, but ] looked strangely familiar; 4 years ago! Plus ça change ...&nbsp;] 23:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

: so, what is the rotational period of teh wiki? ;) ] 07:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== Default font size used by Infobox ==

See ]. Thanks! ] ] 14:40, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

: *That's* interesting; methinks the whole wiki needs the font-size bumped up; will read through it an opine; thanks. Cheers, ] 07:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== content fork ==

Was it that obvious that ] is a content fork? ] (]) 04:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

: it was the hatnote what gave it away ;) ] 07:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

:: You're speaking of the bit when you open the page to edit and you see all those embedded instructions? ] (]) 15:55, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
:: Sorry, I know hatnote. I was thinking about ] when I wrote the above. That's a bit of a problem over there as well.] (]) 16:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

::: both; the ]... and the embedded text makes it crystal-clear. I can see how ownership issues would manifest themselves on such topics. The core issue, however, seems to be the seeking of an escape-hatch to ]. ] 17:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

:::: Yes, that's the real problem. I was thinking making it an Afd. We've already got the ] loaded up with Catholic views and we've also got ]. Also btw, thanks for cleaning things up there. Appreciate that.] (]) 17:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

::::: consider an RfC ;) Cheers, ] 18:13, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== In case you wanted to answer ==

I reverted this user's (most likely inadvertent) blanking of your talk. In the event you want to respond I'm re-adding their post. If I've erred, let me know. Regards ]] 21:23, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

:: ''Hi, why did you undo my edit to the Asquith article? Thanks. ] (]) 21:18, 20 November 2010 (UTC)''

: I've just replied to their query on their own talk. Thanks, ] 21:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

: and dude's blocked; ya might add ]. Cheers, ] 21:31, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

::I'm on pins and needles waiting for unblock decline rationale. ]] 21:35, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

::: It's pretty funny, and not ''Kiera'' Wales. Cheers, ] 21:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

== Time of year to give Thanks ==

{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;"
| rowspan="2" valign="middle" | ]
| rowspan="2" |
| style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''The da Vinci Barnstar'''
|-
| style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | To: ] for fixing things and inventing sorting tables and color coding, and all the rest of it. You are appreciated. Thanks. ] (]) 02:15, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
|}

: <br />Thanks... but I didn't 'invent' sortable tables, I just see good uses for the functionality, and I rain on ''gratuitous'' uses of colour... but I ''get it''&nbsp;— ''same same''&nbsp;/&nbsp;terima kasih, ] 20:37, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
::Ta failte romhat. :) ] (]) 06:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

== tech help ==

Hi Jack,

Here's a tech question. The size of the automatically generated map in the info box on ] is causing the info box to be huge and take up a lot of space. Is this something you can slim down? ] (]) 17:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's the template: {{tl|Infobox French commune}}. Any help is most appreciated. Thanks. ] (]) 17:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

: That template has '270px' baked-in at several spots, without much in the way of overrides-on-offer. It looks as if that's the 'standard'. You might start a thread on the talk page or ask Plastikspork or Dr. B., who've been actively working on it. Cheers, ] 17:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks for looking into that. I'll do as you suggest. :) ] (]) 17:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

== Why? ==

Why do you choose to openly insult me by referring to a specific diff ''in the past'', which I later ''corrected''; it was corrected because I had a misunderstanding about the word. You've done it several times now, is there a reason?— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 21:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

: I don't intend it as an insult, I see it as self-disclosure of an issue. Given that you state, now, that it was a misunderstanding of the word, I'll strike that line. I did just point you at ], which seems ''really'' apt. You do need to drop things at earlier stages. ] 21:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:: Alright; I only asked as a user (exact quote: (''who '''states''' clearly that he has a problem with "]"'')). If that isn't enough, , insinuating that I was mentally ill and wanted to 'play'(exact quote: I am not only an historian, ''I also know more than a little about mental health''. Misplaced Pages is not the place to beg someone to scratch the itch of your boredom to boost your low self-esteem. I will not come out and play as you requested.(emphasis mine)); this is why I took issue with your replies.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 22:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

::: I've no idea what went on re ] and those talk pages, although I see the fellow is gone; a well-bitten n00b, perhaps. I'm seeing *far* too much Catholic stuff this week, as it is↑↑. My impression of you is that you're an editor focused on the drama, not the core goals of the project. I've already noted your over-focus on ANI, and then there's the endless pursuit of socks, which is how you brought yourself to my attention. You need to drop the stick a lot sooner and not even pick it up in many cases. Please read the sidebar on this talk page and be sure to read what the first link goes to. ] 22:37, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:::: I work in the area of sockpuppet hunting because I am not good at writing.— ''']]<sup> ]</sup>''' 23:49, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

::::: Bzzt. That's not a good reason, or the only alternative. "sockpuppet hunting" is all about seeing ]. Read ] (the book, not that article). Misplaced Pages editors, even the socks, are real people, not prey that you hunt. Do you understand '']'' I chose this user name? There are too many editors here for the hunt:
:::::: "If there's a beast, we'll hunt it down! We'll close in and beat and beat and beat&nbsp;— !"
:::::] 00:03, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

== In answer to your question... ==

Me. I'm running the show. Along with Tony1 and Skomorokh, who ran it last year, and a wide assortment of respected users with various advanced permissions. Neither of those two editors were eligible, however we made the decision not to delete the pages, simply not to transclude them or put them in the voting list. To be completely honest, to say that I am running the show is a drastic overstatement of my part in this, but I had to answer in mirror prose. For more information, the ], and the rest of the staff are ]. Cheers, <span style="text-shadow:#458B00 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 02:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

: I had seen that you were running trials on things... but forgot. I did see that Skomorokh had removed those two as ineligible, and that's when I cut my comment. I was rushed for dinner, and didn't look first. You know just what the stage manager does? Places hand on actor's back and gives 'em a shove towards the stage at the right time. Some use tasers. Cheers, ] 02:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

::Thank you. I've been out of commission for most of the past two days, so I have no idea what's happened recently, but if what I was told last week still stands true, I'm going to need those tasers. <span style="text-shadow:#8A360F 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span></span> 02:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

::: and see my user page in about 4 hours for a kewl use of gaffa tape ;) ] 03:07, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

:::: Cattle prods are more in favour this side of the pond. --] (]) 23:57, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

::::: Hi; I owe ya some more talk: been busy. There's always the ]. Damned effective on disruptive editors ;) Cheers, ] 00:31, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

== I thought of you just now ==

...when I saw this user box. Cheers, --] <sup>(])</sup> 04:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
{{User:Antigrandiose/userbox/sockpuppet|float=right}}

: I have a sock that that will fit ;) ]. He doesn't get to edit, though. Terima kasih, ] 04:37, 23 November 2010 (UTC) <small>(I had to fix the damn thing, though;)</small>

== License tagging for File:Subject-delta-bioshock-2-artwork.jpg ==
Thanks for uploading ]. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Misplaced Pages uses a set of ] to indicate this information; to add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from ], click on ], then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Misplaced Pages.

For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on ]. Thank you for your cooperation. --] (]) 05:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

: Hi, bot. I removed an inappropriate tag from an image that's about to be deleted as an orphan once the corresponding article dies the AfD-death; I uploaded a reduced-sized image, in the meantime, in order to comply with ]. It's got a FUR on it, so go stick some FU tag on it, ok? ;) ] 05:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

== Mysterious code artefact ==

Take a look at ] - at the top there's a <nowiki></noinclude></nowiki> that doesn't belong, but I can's see where it comes from (probably a dodgy template). Is your code-fu up to this challenge?&nbsp;] 10:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

: {{done}}
: hi ;) an anon is editing a lot of templates, and left a {{diff|Template:Infobox ice hockey game|399304204|399287904|loose-end}}.
: Cheers, ] 11:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

:: Ta - I thought it probably was, but am <del>too lazy to do it myself</del> not entirely comfortable with template code.&nbsp;] 12:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

== Hmm... ==

By your edit to my {{diff|User:1234r00t|398387283|398291595|userpage}} and the edit summary you left with it I'm guessing ''you'' were the first one? I was just panning through my userpage history and found your edit. ] ] ] 00:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

: I certainly recognized part of it; code gets around&nbsp;— enjoy it ;) Cheers, ] 01:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

== Why? ==

?

Is there a policy or guideline that says we have to place the embarrassing blocked and sockpuppet boilerplates on the user page of a user who requests something different? I'm genuinely curious as it seems to run counter to my understanding of ], but I may be missing something here.

] (]) 20:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

: Hi. I didn't place the sock and banned tags; others did and they were richly deserved. Loosmark seeking 'retirement' instead of his due-fate amounts to evasion of of what he did. Happens all the time around here; I'm surprised you've not seen this many times, as you've been here a while. fyi, I'm a sock, too, and have little tolerance for Loo's sort of behaviour. Cheers, ] 02:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

== Colonel Warden RFC/U ==
FYI - A ] has been started on ]. Since you participated in ] which preceded this RfC/U, you might be interested in participating. If so, please see ]. Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

== Favor ==

Can you edit pictures? The software I use to edit my pictures has packed up, or more likely I have done something to it, can you edit them? I think you can. I need the top advert from this image , cut out and straightend up for my new page. I had a go myself ], but I can't get it square. Can you help? I would be very grateful. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 17:08, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

: I'm sure Jack can edit pictures, but I've made a humble attempt, Excellency. How does this look? ] - would you like it cropped tighter, or any colour/balance changing? --] (]) 18:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

:: this work-out? I haz Photoshop, too ;) Cheers, ] 04:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

== Cross namespace, html table, parserfunction fun ==

Check out . Cheers. ] ] 04:39, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

: ick; I made it go away. You see what I ran into the last couple of days: manned spacecraft infoboxes. Seems there's no template for them and folks are hard-coding tables with appalling markup. colspan="1" was a hoot. cellspacing and cellpadding on td an th elements, too. And I was reverted. ], and ]. But it's all over; the NASA, Russian and Chinese vehicles, too. These are mostly really early wiki articles; before templates existed. I also expect they're all a tad different in their structure. It's a mess. Cheers, ] 04:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
:: Some standard infobox would certainly be useful there. It looks better than it did before, with the switch to the standard infobox class. ] ] 05:38, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
::: My intent was to kick it the right direction and then go find whatever standard template... which I found didn't exist. And I've been reverted by the fans of orange on Dragon one. The Chinese craft are in orange, too'; the American skyblue. I think the Russian ones are fairly normal. They work pretty reliably, too. Cheers, ] 05:41, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
:::: There is {{tl|Infobox spacecraft}}, but it may require some additional features to use it on the pages in question. Beyond that there is the list in {{tl|Spaceflight infoboxes}}. ] ] 01:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
::::: I was looking at that one; it seems geared for space probes, not manned craft. I've been nosing about and getting a feel for what's out there. Mostly a project for next year, as I'll be away. Cheers, ] 01:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Sounds good. FYI, I did some prodding ], and on other state infobox template talk pages. Will see where it goes. ] ] 02:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

I don't intend to respond directly, but thank you for your characterization of Sandians. Cheers. ] (]) 22:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

: You're most welcome ;) <span style="background-color: #eee; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #777, #eee); display: inline-block; padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #777; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">] 22:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)</span>

== Thank you ==

Um, any chance of making the banner a bit narrower? It extends past my right margin, and perhaps a reduction of around 10-15% will allow it to sit nicely on the page? Thanks again... ] (]) 23:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

: {{done}} — Jack used max-width, which should work for ya ;) ] (]) 00:21, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== Trolling? ==

Since when was pointing out disgraceful breaks in logic, ? His vote was good, his comment was ill-considered. Pointing that out was not wrong. I'll not revert, but "les administrator" is still not an offence around here. Unforunately, every time someone acts like it is, it hurts the project.] (]) 01:44, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

== ] ==

There's something weird going on with the film festival infobox. I copied it from the Sundance one yesterday and it looked fine, now it doesn't; there's some sort of woo-woo going on with the image. I've tried different things, at least it displays now, but there's some extra text which doesn't belong. If you get time, could you take a look?

Cheers&nbsp;] 09:50, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

* {{done}}, but I had to envaginate the implementation and refactor the syntax to use pure virtual destructors for the thumbnails. Hope that helps ;) ] 09:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
*: Of course! It seemed odd to me that I was using the same same syntax as at Sundance, which does use user-specified thumbnail destructors (<code>thumb|200px</code>) but the results were not the same. May have been a problem with the human interface though.&nbsp;] 10:10, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
*:: I'd not realized it was a new article; looks nice. You been? I also poked Sundance. Cheers, ] 10:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
*:: see: ]. ] 10:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
*::: Sadly not - I have a friend who goes most years, she's been to Cannes and Sundance too but likes the atmosphere at Huelva - less hype, more relaxed and (apparently) a nice place. It's on my to-do list (along with many, many other things!)&nbsp;] 10:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
*:::: I stumbled into one in Montreal about 10 years ago, and saw a few. It was cool; whole city is. There was one in Bali and I passed. It was down the hill and I avoided that area for the most part. The mountains are nicer. See . Cheers, ] 10:40, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

== View by Kww ==

Yes, thanks! <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #ddd;">—] (])</span> 20:48, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

: Good; I almost let it go... nb: I further tweaked your sig ; Cheers, ] 21:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

:: Old net admins prefer full hex, sorts better. (; <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD;">—] (])</span> 21:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

::: and all-caps, it seems. underscores (and tabs) are evil, semi-colons are precautionary and em dashes are about scuttling ASCII. Cheers, ] 21:50, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

== how about? ==

I'd rather you just tell me what you want me to change, rather than changing it for me. You definitely do not have my permission to edit my user page. Otherwise folks will just think I'm your sock. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #ddd;">—] (])</span> 21:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

: but it had an edit link on it and this is a wiki ;) it's not worth the bother to explain such fixes, though, so I'll leave it alone. your sig would be a tad better as:

:* <tt><nowiki><span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #ddd;">—] (])</span></nowiki></tt>

: I edit user pages all the time; mostly it's appreciated. Arbs, 'crat's, Founders, Fellow Travelers. I've been known to edit case pages and decisions, too. I also like editing articles just before they're deleted. Cheers, ] 21:45, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<sup>(Nuujinn's another of my soks;)<sup>

::I'm sure you do a very fine job, and I know I'm just way old school. I still use innerHTML and bold tags, vi. I write my diary in cobol. I remember usenet. I think I met you there a few times. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--] (])</span> 21:50, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

::: And center-elements? At least your sig isn't using <tt><nowiki><font></nowiki></tt>. your user page is mostly safe from me as I never put much effort into userboxes and barnstars. I built my first code out of wood, using chisels. Been there, but not with this ID. Cheers, <span style="background-color: #eee; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #777, #eee); display: inline-block; padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #777; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">Cheers, '''<span style="color:maroon">Jack M</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:purple">r</span><span style="color:teal">r</span><span style="color:orange">i</span><span style="color:blue">d</span><span style="color:green">e</span><span style="color:fuchsia">w</span>''' 21:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</span>
::::Yes, center elements and frames, with lots of animated gifs. Chisels? I'm assuming you mean the stone ones, I remember when they came out. I wrote my first code in dino splat with a dull stick. I miss that stick, it was sweet. (; <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--] (])</span> 22:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
::::: You youngsters! Who do you think made the dino splat for you? --] (]) 22:41, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

:::::: <span style="background-color: #FAFAD2; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #FFD700, #FAFAD2); display: inline-block; padding: 0.5em 1em; border: 1px solid #BDB76B; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">] '']'', of course ;) ] (]) 00:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC)</span>

::::::: Bu.. but... my sigs use <nowiki><font></nowiki>! Uh, well, not really, I guess... they just use <nowiki></font></nowiki> a lot, haha! How dare you impugn the Bish family coding skills, sir? The darwinbish will be furious! Just watch her filing her sharp little teeth!

::::::: And I remember when Bishapod tumble down Reichstag, go splat... ! Fishapods no-good climbers! ] | ] 01:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC).

:::::::: Bu.. but... bish's are exceptional ;) and sigs can be changed<sup style="font-size: smaller;">(to not use the invalid colour-names cyan and magenta;)</sup>
:::::::: teh tread hear bee all Abbott kode, sew wii awl shoe hour siks. ankle biter's knead sicks, two? <span style="background-color: #FAFAD2; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #FFD700, #FAFAD2); display: inline-block; padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #BDB76B; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">] 01:51, 13 December 2010 (UTC)<sup>damnit; putt won wong soks sick toddy :(</sup></span>
:::::::: hay<sup>is for ]</sup>&nbsp;—Don't forget that Jack is only twelve years old. He did tell me that he voted for Giano ;) *eye* not even autoconfirmed, let alone 'nuf to vote. must have Jack make most of my edits. you see ] gave me badass userbox? mebbe Kelly come back and delete it ;) <span style="margin-right: -3.25em; white-space: nowrap">] <span style="display: inline-block; position: relative; left: -1.8em; top: 0.6em;"><span style="line-height: 0.8em; font-size: 0.7em;">aka ]</span></span></span> 02:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
<div style="margin: 1em 0; background-color: #eee; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #999, #eee); padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #999; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">

<p style="text-align: center; font-size: larger;">''''']'''''</p>
He paused and stood up, looking at the shadows under the trees. His voice was lower when he spoke again.

''"But we'll leave part of the kill for …"''

He knelt down again and was busy with his knife. The boys crowded round him. He spoke over his shoulder to Roger.

''"Sharpen a stick at both ends."''

Presently he stood up, holding the dripping sow's head in his hands.

''"Where's that stick?"''

''"Here."''

''"Ram one end in the earth. Oh — it's rock. Jam it in that crack. There."''

Jack held the head and jammed the soft throat down on the pointed end of the stick which pierced through into the mouth. He stood back and the head hung there, a little blood dribbling down the stick.

Instinctively the boys drew back too; and the forest was very still. They listened, and the loudest noise was the buzzing of the flies over the spilled guts.

<p style="text-align: right; margin-right: 2em;">
Ch. 8: Gift for the Darkness<br />
'']'' by ]
</p>
<p style="text-align: right;">] 22:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</p>
</div>
Ah, grade school. Good times, good times... <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--] (])</span> 22:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

== A family-size bucket of articles tagged {{tl|unreferenced}} ==

A point was raised at {{diff|Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Colonel Warden|401821163|401820561|the Colonel's KFC}}; many articles cluttering up the "unreferenced articles" categories are the likes of ], ], ] etc.

I do not really see the point of these articles; they seem to be more of a navigational aid rather than anything else. (A bit like those misbegotten "Outline of …" thangs). IF they are merely navigational, they don't really need references as they will contain bluelinks to no doubt impeccably sourced Misplaced Pages content. In which case they could have the tags removed and make life so much easier for those of us who spend their time a-hunting' and a-fishin' in these categories for articles to source or delete or whatever.

Downside - there are a gazillion of them. So it would require
* agreement that this sort of stuff is reference-exempt
* {{tl|unreferenced}} removing from the article
* some sort of code adding to prevent eager bots from retagging.

Do you think it is worth pursuing this?&nbsp;] 23:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

: The point of such articles is ''moar articles'' about subjects already covered elsewhere. They seem to be the product of ]. No one seems to have started the series ], or even ], but they will. All that's needed is for some idiot to mention the idea. I don't see them as navigational, I see them as collections of trivia. I'd be more inclined to delete such things and focus on the real articles. If I want to know what happened in ], I'll look at ] and re-read '']''. If I want to know about centuries of events in ], I'd re-read '']'' and ], not ]. Sometimes I think the purpose of this site is to demonstrate that the majority is always insane. If I had a Norwegian guest and we were going to host a ], I might review these for trivia, which is probably a better tag for these articles.

: I expect others have noticed such articles before; mebbe there's talk on the issue, somewhere. I'd be more inclined to require references for everything in them to increase the burden on those inflicting such things on the project. If a bad idea is easy, people will pursue it, anyway; if they have to do more work, they'll get less harm done. Cheers, ] 00:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)<sup>''Kentucky Fried Colonel'', also known as ]</sup>

:: I didn't know there was a whole project shovelling these in. Jesus. I was thinking that the harm was pretty much done. A while ago someone (MzM?) produced a sekrit list of unwatched articles and there was an initiative afoot for a bunch of editors to take these onto their watchlist to guard against teh vandal hordes. I volunteered. Because it was early in the game most of the ones that I got began with a number, usually a year, due to the sorting. It was soul-destroying, and I thought at the time that articles should not be named eg 1996 Olympic Games etc but rather Olympic Games of 1996 just so that in a sort they find themselves with other Olympic games rather than other events in the same year (1966 Obstetrician's conference in Seattle, 1996 Oman plane crash, whatever). I did mention this somewhere but can't remember where, nothing much happened anyway. Might have a think and a bash at reform, later.&nbsp;] 00:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

See also, coincidentally; ]&nbsp;] 19:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

: I've never seen any of that, before. It reminds me of the old Yahoo approach to the web, or dmoz. At first peek, I'm inclined to tag it as historical and work up a consensus to redirect them all to the real articles. Cheers, ] 21:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

== carrots and sticks ==

I love cruft and I know that others...ummm...don't. Nevertheless I am very interested in improving 'core' material. Hence I am pondering some ] rather than ].. ] (] '''·''' ]) 02:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

: Hi. I'll have Jack look. I know he believes in core stuff, too. You see he proposed a ]? It's a good one and some others ought to ]; do 'em a world of good. Ya caught me in Safari, so... <span style="background-color: #FAFAD2; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #FFD700, #FAFAD2); display: inline-block; padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #BDB76B; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">Cheers, <span style="margin-right: -3.25em; white-space: nowrap">] <span style="display: inline-block; position: relative; left: -1.8em; top: 0.6em;"><span style="line-height: 0.8em; font-size: 0.7em;">aka ]</span></span></span> 03:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)</span>

: I've been looking. The no-brainers, well, *are*. Skipping over silliness like the ] and ] we have notable sovereign countries that must need work. They *all* should be up to at least GA. The other stuff all seems core, too. I'd be inclined to work on smaller countries. And the issue of ] should be addressed, at some point. We should hurry with ] as Julian has documentation of an expected fall in a 2–3 year timeframe.
: If you're open to other topics, I've been fussing over some of the articles on manned spacecraft and noted that a lot of them are hurting puppies. I think what happened is that they were started really early in the project and got off on circa-2002 feet. The tables, for example, are crude as can be. {{diff|Mercury-Atlas|401749162|391734182|This was rather stunning}}; I expect such goop on places like ], but not here; I rather expected that to all be gone, long ago, on this project. This is part of why I think we have too many articles; people focus on the non-core stuff far too much and don't attend to what's important. I'm guilty of this, too. Remember, half the people are of below average intelligence. So, would you consider manned spacecraft? There are a lot of red links in some of the navboxes beyond the poorly developed ones that are extant. You followed what The Chinese are planning for manned spaceflight next year? ]... Cheers, ] 04:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

== POV on FMSF ==

Hi JM. I note that you've tagged ] for a POV check. The article has its fair share of problems, without a doubt – but does this particular tag mean that editors new to the subject will give it a relatively objective and impartial look-over? That might be one good measure of POV as regular editors are probably biased to the extreme, one way or the other... Cheers ] (]) 06:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

: I would hope the editors will case a baleful eye on some of the claims and counter claims made. It seems to me that this article has some serious issues, and I've pinged another editor for input. I'll be reviewing the history in more detail, but I see that it's thrashed about a bit. Small and controversial topics are frequently hijacked by accounts focused on just them, which is not healthy. The usual solution is to bring in fresh editors that don't have strong points of view. Re-read ] ;) ] 08:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

:: OK, got the picture. I suspect relatively 'generalist' or 'middle-ground' editors found themselves getting worn down, and finally threw in the towel. There's at least one area that is distinctly biased against the FMSF. If I can think of a way it might be made more even-handed, I'll make a note on the talk page. ] (]) 23:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

== Diff script ==

FYI - I created a script which automatically converts a diff URL into a properly formatted {{t|diff}} template. Since you were the one who first showed me the magic of the {{t|diff}} template, I thought I'd let you know about it. I made a quick documentation page at ]. Feel free to use it if you like. Cheers. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 23:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

: Awesome; I was thinking about this very idea the last night. {{tl|oldid}}, too? Actually I was thinking a bot, but same idea and a good way to introduce the idea. Off to look. Cheers, ] 23:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC) <small>but due to land, soon</small>

:: It should be easy to add the functionality to convert URL's to {{t|oldid}} as well, although I'd probably have to make it a different key combination because a diff URL and a "previous revision" URL look very similar, so I'd rather not mess around with trying to automatically figure out which one you want it to be. Could probably do Ctrl-Alt-O or something. If you give it a try, let me know what you think, and let me know what browser you tried it on (and if it actually worked). ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 23:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::: Great; it works in Chrome, not on Firefox. Will look further. About to lose connection. Cheers, ] 23:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

::::Yup, I just downloaded Firefox and it's not working. I think it has something to do with how Firefox deals with selected text. I'll look into it and see what I can find. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 23:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

{{od}}Oh good - the message I was getting was
:Diffconverter.js: Invalid URL. Ensure that you have selected a valid diff URL, and then press Ctrl-Alt-D.

I assume this was the same for you. Browser is Mac Firefox.<br />With Safari on the Mac I get
an alert box thus:

{{code| lang = javascript | code = function getSelection() {
}
}} }}
--] (]) 06:30, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

== "Bigun" listed at ] ==
then the "invalid URL" alert.&nbsp;] 23:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect ] and has thus listed it ]. This discussion will occur at {{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 6#Bigun}} until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 20:34, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
*Ha! You were using the script while I was trying to debug it. I think I've gotten it to work on both Chrome 8 and Firefox 3.6. Try clearing your cache and try again. I'll try adding the {{t|oldid}} functionality momentarily (and I believe I can easily make it work using the same Ctrl-Alt-D key combination). ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:*Ok, the oldid functionality seems to be working now too. So, if you copy and paste a diff URL it'll create a {{t|diff}} template, and if you copy and paste a revision URL it'll create an {{t|oldid}} template. Let me know if you run into any problems. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 00:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

:: Works in Chrome, nifty. Will try others.&nbsp;] 01:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
<del>� Safari - no.</del>
Firefox - yes. &nbsp;] 01:08, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Success all round. I have only tried the diff version. Cheers&nbsp;] 01:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
: what the hell character did you paste in front of 'Safari'? “�” Curious, and not gonna look, yet. Cheers, ] 06:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:: No idea - I had three browsers going, each with an active edit form on this page, for testing, and typed - something in one, copied and pasted it to Firefox, and got that. Haven't seen that character for ages, it used to crop up a lot ...&nbsp;] 09:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
::: I see this sort of thing in emails. I believe those are cross-platform issues coupled with differences in character encoding settings of email clients. Pasting from Word can do this, too. Cheers, ] 01:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
Works on ] and ], but not on Opera, which seems to not even be running the script. Will look further... Great tool, ] 06:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:{{diff|Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Colonel Warden|402472163|402456511|Nice. ;)}} ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:: I did {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Colonel Warden|402473611|402472163|another one}}. It would be *really* cool if you could highlight all of:
::* <tt><nowiki></nowiki></tt>
:: and have it drop the brackets, space, and use the link-text as the LABEL. This is going to have to be publicized and the rationale re ] and ] explained. Terima kasih, ] 06:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC) <small>and off, I'm beat</small>
:: {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Colonel Warden|402456511|402472163|think on this}}, grins ] 06:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:::I hope the script didn't create that diff... Also, I'm confused by the URL you posted above. I could see why you'd want the script to get rid of the trailing bracket and use the link text in place of LABEL, but when would you ever have a diff link that ends with something like "#Bambifan101_related_protection_requests"? I'm going to work on cleaning up the script later today, and perhaps add the ability for it to determine if you've just selected a bare URL or if you've selected a URL in square brackets with link text. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:::: No, I pasted that-up myself to demonstrate what happens when you swap the numbers (you swap the diff left/right which could also be viewed as reversing time.. This other was {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Colonel Warden|402473611|402472163|this}}, which I reverted. That was from the script. This is an odd link because Kevin seems to have viewed a diff and then clicked-down to the section heading. It works as a raw URL but the script malformed it. I'm not sure {{tl|diff}} can handle this and doubt it's very important. I'm mostly not here, so good luck. I'll try the new version a bit. I really only care about Firefox, but supporting the others would be nice. I care the least about Opera, and not at all about IE. Cheers, ] 01:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

:: Does happen; it's a link to an anchor section on an old page.&nbsp;] 15:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:::Do the {{t|diff}} or {{t|oldid}} templates support that? ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
::::dunno ... {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Bambifan101_related_protection_requests|260715588|260715425|trying ...}} seems that the diff one does.&nbsp;] 16:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

::::{{oldid|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Bambifan101_related_protection_requests|260715588|Seems they do}}&nbsp;] 16:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Oh, I see... and I see that I should read the whole thread... ] 01:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::Ahh I see, so you have to re-attach the #anchor part of it to the article name. Weird. Ok, I'll see what I can figure out. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 17:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
*Ok, I updated a bunch of stuff. I think the script is getting a little too cool. You can now use diff links with ], and you can now select previously formatted diff links (select the square brackets and all) and the script will convert it to template format and preserve the link text. Selecting Jack's example URL above will now create a properly formatted template. In the process, I created a bunch of bugs, and I think I caught them all, but there's probably still one or two lurking. If you see anything weird, let me know. Thanks! ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 20:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

One thing that seems odd, and could be problematic on big pages if the same diff is quoted more than once, it seems to target the first one it finds. See ].

Jack's been gone a while while we make ourselves at home here, wonder if there are any beers in his fridge.&nbsp;] 21:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

:Yeah, good call, that is weird. The script definitely does look for the first instance of the selected text rather than the actual location of the selected text, mostly because I've found that working with selected text is really annoying because every browser seems to do it a little differently. Let me see if there's a better way to do this. Perhaps a piece of this pie from Jack's fridge will help me concentrate... ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
::: teh pie's in ]. Cheers, ] 01:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
::{{y}}Fixed, although that change may have broken other browsers, I'll check. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
:::Seems to still work in both Chrome and Firefox, which is all I really care about at this point. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 22:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

=== Anchors ===
How I get links to anchors (may be a long way round) is
* Find the version you want in the page history
* Click on 'permanent link" in the toolbox on the left of the screen
* Click on the relevant section header in the TOC
* Copy that URL , which will look like
<div style="overflow: auto; font-family: monospace;">
::http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Wikipedia_talk:Article_Rescue_Squadron/Archive_49&oldid=401739615#Can_somebody_check_the_Lars_Pearson_article_please.3F
</div>
This then works perfectly with the script to give
::{{oldid|Misplaced Pages talk:Article Rescue Squadron/Archive 49#Can somebody check the Lars Pearson article please.3F|401739615|Optional LABEL, something about elites}}
Nice and tidy, nasty underscores all gone, so moar barnstars @ SnottyWong. &nbsp;] 21:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

== Do you know...? ==

I was somewhat aware you'd run into a big ], so to speak, but when someone later edits in ways that don't stir up kerfluffles, the bygone tends to slip my mind. It's true, coming back from those kinds of restrictions is a long hard slog and doesn't happen often at all. For editors with strong outlooks on topics, WP has a very steep learning curve which, while not that tall, if not heeded, is enough to bring forth hard stumbles :) ] (]) 10:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

: Hi, Gwen. Ya, it's a ], and rare. I support that, as most should not make it back. As I see it (and have said), I've been defending the project's best interests all along. Enough see that, and have said so. The whole process has been a net-positive, as I ] and understand the projects far better for it. The projects have matured during this time, and I maintain that I've helped with that.
: There's a complex allegory behind my choice of ]. Some see the surface layer, and stop peeling back and so miss the core. I made this comparison about a year before ] did. Cheers, ] <small>(have a read of my talk page's sidebar)</small> 16:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

::Oh, maybe that's why, when I first saw it, I may have thought I'd seen the name before! Since you brought it up, I think ''Lord of the Flies'' is very bad anthropology and I believe, should only be shown to kids, if at all, with a warning that it's meant to trick them into thinking they can't get along with each other on their own, the whole thing ending with them being "saved" by a man in a white uniform. Awful, wrong. There can be one or two bullies in a group, but they most often get handled by the group one way or another, if the group is allowed to do so. The closest things historically to LotF, that I know of, happened on ] and ]. On the former, one bully ran amok for awhile, then was stopped, with no outside help. On the latter, some bullies and thugs ran things for a time, wiped each other out and of the last two standing, one killed himself, the other being killed. By the time the outside world found them, a band of mutineers on the run with kidnapped women and men had shifted into a peaceful group of women, children and one man, doing much to abide in faith. ] (]) 14:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

::: Of course, the contributions that Jack makes to Misplaced Pages, improving markup and spreading the gospel of good practice, is the very antithesis of Golding's vision – and a direct rejection of his misanthropic view of humanity. There's more than a small amount of intentional irony in an editor, whose goal is to bring order to Misplaced Pages, choosing the username "Jack Merridew". Despite what Jimbo would have us believe, Misplaced Pages possesses many of the sociological aspects of the situation that the characters in Golding's novel find themselves in, and it's a tribute to the civilising instincts of the majority of participants that we've gone as far as we have. --] (]) 15:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

::::Where this gets muddled fast, is that so-called "]" mostly tends to reward, draw in and institutionalize the bullies, who are the few, with the mossy, scammy lie that they "protect." I don't think Golding's sociological/anthropological outlook, as put forth in LotF, was sound. One could still draw irony from taking on a character name from the novel, but I don't know if that's what JM had in mind. Only chatting, BTW. ] (]) 15:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

: I'm rushed, so brief. Pitcairn we all (should) know; know the more recent history there? I'll read ], at first gloss, it looks interesting. See ], started by my sock-sibling ]; that user name was inspired by David Gerard calling me a “]”. Golding's story isn't really about children at all; It's about adults acting like children: the alpha-monkey claiming the highest branch, thus being able to shit on those below. Children seek limits and too often, there are few (they want the ] toy, and their pathetic parents cave, beaten by a six year old).
: fwiw, my choice of “Jack” as my current user name is not really intended to refer to myself; it's commentary on what I see. And note that “Ralph”, above, only signs that way when chatting with me. Misplaced Pages is awash with amok users who see it as a place with “no grownups”. The serious people are rather hobbled by a surfeit of AGF in the face of abundant evidence of gross misbehaviour. Read ], too. Oh, I saw the original film long ago, and again this year. While good, it does not really convey the fullness of the story. I have a ] and some are wired into ], which is dynamic.<sup></sup> There's also ], and ].
: Cheers, ] 18:30, 18 December 2010 (UTC) <small>should have time for a better chat, next week</small>
<div style="min-width: 30em; max-width: 50em; margin: 1em auto; background-color: #eee; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #999, #eee); padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #999; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">
<p>
Anyone can edit an article, anonymously, hit and run. From the very beginning that has been Misplaced Pages’s greatest strength and its greatest weakness. The result is often what you'd expect from reading “].”
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0; text-align: right; padding-right: 2em;">
—&nbsp;]<sup class="plainlinks"></span>
</p>
</div>

== Filmography sorting - again ==

Hi Jack, when you have time could you please have a look at the title sorting at ]. Specifically ''A Better Tomorrow'' and ''Chinese Ghost Story''. I can't remember how to add a sort key so that number 1 in each series appears first. You've fixed a similar thing before but the only thing I can remember is that it was a 1940s actor, which doesn't exactly narrow it down enough for me to find. No hurry, but I'd appreciate your contribution when you have a little time. thanks ] (]) 12:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

: Hi Ross, I've used a {{tl|sort}}: <tt><nowiki>{{sort|Chinese Ghost Story I|]}}</nowiki></tt> and <tt><nowiki>{{sort|Better Tomorrow 1|]}}</nowiki></tt>. It probably works on most common browsers, but I'm fairly sure it won't work on Safari4 unless every title in the column has a sort key. Cheers. --] (]) 14:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

::Hi Rexx. Thanks for updating to sort those titles. I'm using Safari5 and it sorts correctly, but .... I dunno about Safari4. I can think of two filmographies in which Jack introduced a way to fix this type of problem, and for the life of me, I can't remember which articles, but the way you've done it seems different. At least, it doesn't look familiar, but I guess there's more than one way to do it. I have updated the filmography for one ] and added a sort key for each year/date per that other Australian actress who shall remain nameless, but that approach would probably be overkill for film titles, I reckon. Cheers. ] (]) 14:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

::: Well, as we say over here, "Cat-skinning has multiple methodologies". The complication at ] was that some of the titles already had {{tl|sortname}} to remove 'A' or 'The' from the sort order, but that can be mimicked using {{tl|sort}}. The documentation for the template does recommend that if you use a sort template, it should be used on all entries in the column, but I agree that it's probably overkill now just to accommodate Safari4. Doubtless Jack will find time at some point to tell us how he solved the problem previously. Happy Bishmas! --] (]) 16:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
::::Happy Bishmas to you too! ] (]) 08:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

: Hi, guys. I'm busy, but a moment. Rossrs, what you're recalling is prolly ] (born in the 40s, at least. The part I was fussing with was her appearances in the Godfather movies, and the subsequent ones have Part II and Part III as suffixes while the first omits, and sorted poorly. I used the sort= option of {{tl|sortname}}:
:* <tt><nowiki>''{{sortname|The|Godfather|sort=Godfather Part I, The}}''</nowiki></tt>
: I looked at ] and it could use that fix, too. I believe the {{tl|sort}} amounts to the same thing but find it cleaner to use an option of the same template as is being used elsewhere in the table.
: As to dead browsers, no, I don't believe in supporting them except for gross failures (such as the entire page layout collapsing). Safari 4's issues were fixed in a maintenance release (4.1) and in subsequent major releases (5++). 4.0 is fast approaching zero usage and there is no way support for it could be deployed to more than a trivial proportion of the articles involved. Same for the "to" in lieu of an en dash; it's simply a bit of disruptive game-play being used to harass my edits. They should all be nudged back to the MOS's dashes. I'll address these issues in earnest when I have more time. fyi, I don't support IE6 or any of the oddities of the latter version of it; sites should not be built or tweaked to accommodate any specific user agent; the goal should be to follow web standards and if people use a fur-shite browsers, they get what they deserve. Cheers, ] 17:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC) <small>(my first browser was ]; I used ] in 79–80 and an ] before that to dial-in to a mainframe. Learned ] on it, too. And I carved code from wood with chisels)</small>
::Probably was Diane now that you mention her. Thanks for the assistance. I've updated Mr. Pacino. Cheers. ] (]) 08:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

== The names, the places etc ==
]
The initial issue - and which still stands - is that there are eds who come to the Indonesian archipelago and who dump unsourced crap (there is one 3 year long hoax issue at the moment being looked at :) see http://en.wikipedia.org/Bunaka - and as a result valid ''potential'' stubs (in your words inherently notable locations) - are mixed with them - so there seemed to be an issue to raise at the project noticeboard - wah the birds descend and the chinese whispers grow faster than you can say ''jimbo wales is a man'' or something similar - the original intent - albeit whether it is lost in some vast project to clean up the regency dump from some time ago - was simply to establish some principles of how to slowly clean up the locality articles in wp indonesia - so we can find the others (hoaxes and rubbish) and expand the current stubs with nothing in them - perhaps too idealistic for this damned jungle of egoes and issues ]] 07:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

: I'm not buying it all. Every Desa is inherently notable. They're real, people live in them. I'm fine with nuking hoaxes and sorting out spelling variants. Notability tagging them is disruptive; tag them as stubs, which implies a need for expansion. Get the interwiki links right and glean details from id:wp and jv:wp. Take these to AfD and you'll look pretty silly. ] 08:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

:: I have put this on every damned talk page and it still gets skewed - I am not the slightest interested in afd or 'n' tagging - I started the ball rolling at the Indonesian project noticeboard to find out where the WP Indonesia project is at in relation to the issues - and ok your view is ''very clearly spelt out'' here - no need to try to assume that I either support or object to your view - have a safe christmas - ]] 08:29, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

::: OK, I accept that. I've not read all the talk I see on a half dozen pages in detail. Notability tagging is off; unref/refimprove would be better. Mostly I'm busy with real-life and am travelling. Another bit is that I view the entire concept of wikiprojects as poor; too often they're about an amok group. Not all, of course. Misplaced Pages is a ], not a ] of wikiprojects. Indonesia is the fourth most populous nation on Earth; I'm fine with hundreds of thousands of articles. China and India, even more. This whole project is incredibly skewed towards Western content. Fuck that. Merry Christmas, ] 08:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

::::Hahahah - re your views of projects - as for the other stuff hope your sense of humour improves - and real life settles down for you cheers ]] 08:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

::::: I've had trouble with your sense of humour before; I'll AGF that I've missed something. Off for now, ] 08:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::: Ditto I'll AGF your comment at Cas's talk page too - selamat jalan mas! ]] 08:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey amigo. Lets focus on improving the regencies for now. Jack you are clever technically, I was wondering if you could upload the locator maps of the regencies for Aceh starting with ?♦ ] 08:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

: Of course the Regencies should get the highest priority. As above, I'm focused on real-life and am away; mostly I'm not here until next year. I'll certainly help, though; maps would make lots of sense. I did about this with at least a hundred ] while en:banned. Merry Christmas, ] 08:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
: Did that one: ]. Give me a free afternoon and I'll get most of them moved. Cheers, ] 08:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That's great, if you could upload the regency maps of Indonesia by province this would be an enormous help. If you could categorize them as Regency maps of Aceh, Regency maps of North Sumatra etc in the commons this will make them easy to find.♦ ] 09:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

: Deal, but no time and I'm really off after this edit. Fix that one, ok? I'll follow the pattern or tweak it as needed. Mebbe we need a naming convention... Merry Christmas, ] 09:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Merry Christmas Jack! I'll see if somebody else can help upload them if you are busy. Category is at Category:Regency locator maps of Indonesia (and sub cats) in the commons should you have time to do any more. ♦ ] 09:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


=== intrinsic notability ===
I just replied to your comment on Masem's talk p. I am thoroughly in accord with your ideas about accepting intrinsic notability for as many types of things as possible. I am so much in accord with this as a principle, that I would accept more restrictive intrinsic notability than I would ideally like, in order to get the principle established as widely as possible. I think we are likely to be have similar views about the content of articles, the quality of referencing, and matters of style. I think we agree on increasing coverage of the non-English speaking world; I think we agree of not including too much coverage of popular entertainers and society figures. I think we agree about making Misplaced Pages procedure simpler and more representative. In general I think we understand things the same way, but perhaps have slightly different goals: I think you're a little more focusing on improving quality directly, and I on attracting users to improve quality,which has implications for how to deal with less-than-acceptable articles on possibly acceptable subjects. By the by, I expect to be active here over the holidays. ''']''' (]) 19:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

: I saw your post; moments after you posted it, actually. I'll only go so far with this, but you'll like most of it. ''Streams'', for example are too far; the planet must have about a billion of them; same for neighborhoods, which would be case-by-case. The ] I first lived is plenty notable without the need for a safety net of intrinsicity. But Indonesian Regencies? If I had time, this month, I'd stub every damn one of them with a terse sentence that asserts notability simply by saying "is an Indonesian Regency" and include an interwiki link to id:wp and jv:wp; su:wp and ms:wp have fair coverage of these, too. This would apply to such things from any country; I'm just less familiar with them. id:wp has most all of them and I've been over them all. I built most of the navigation structure there. There are about 500; Kab are ''rural'' the corresponding urban entity is a ]. The next level is about 5,500. id:wp has many of them stubbed, but not all. I lived in ];<sup>({{oldid|Ubud|8278104|oldid}}; I still rather like the original version)</sup> From our perspective, it's a town; about 8,000 people. But it's more complex than that; there's a ] named Ubud, too; the town is in it. A Kecamatan is a sub-district; aka a county. These are in ], which redirects to ]. It has subdistricts, one of which is named ''Gianyar''... and that subdistrict includes a ], named ''Gianyar''. This is the pattern across all of the world fourth most populous country: ]; The exception is ], which uses some alternate terminology. <POV>Papua is not a legitimate part of Indonesia; The ]; is bullshite. It's about things such as the ] (gold, copper). Papua has oil, too. Many Papuans are virtual slaves of the ] and their ]</POV> See also a few articles such as ], ], ].
: Enough for the moment; I should add the these administrative structures are not static; id:gov is regularly splitting big things into smaller chunks; the reorganized ] a few years ago. You're retired, so you're time would be flexible. Need a vacation? I'll hook you up with a visa agent and can point you at nice places to stay. You can spend a little or a lot; accommodation ranges from $3/night to $5,000/night. I opted for $6/night (but that was a long-term deal on a place that would be $20/night short-term). Flight-time from NYC is 24h plus a couple of gas stops. +12 timezones; 11,000 miles. btw, editing from the other side means that one sees the wiki drama storms during the lulls while those from the toxic continent are asleep. There's a smaller daily blip on the drama-meter when the Europeans are on-stage; the tone of that blip is different, as they've a different culture.
: Merry Christmas; I will be about a bit today, but have gnoming on ] to do and said I'd flip locator maps to Commons for Dr.B. Cheers, ] 21:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
::Yeah, the timezones make for interesting watching. Much happens when I am asleep, and I often wake up on the tail end of it all. Bali is much closer to me, and Indonesia is one of the places I've not been to yet. ] (] '''·''' ]) 23:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
::: Missed ya; I can point you at nice vacation spots. And you may run into ] in the market, too. Cheers, ] 10:37, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Merry Christmas! Well, ideally we'd have all of the locator maps the same so upload all of the provinces which have them first I'd say. If the pin maps are of half decent quality then they could be uploaded..♦ ] 10:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

: I am uploading them all; here and there I'm find some that others have done, and am categorizing them; the cats will need further attention; cuts or additions, but I'm not looking, yet. I think the pin maps will end up gone. The ones in use are plain, don't show the borders and are zoomed way-out. The svg ones are fine. jv:wp, ms:wp, and nl:wp have a lot of these Kab started and can use them, too, now.
:* ]
: will give you an idea of what's available. The pin maps are already on Commons; see ] for an example that's currently using both. One of the others has the pin out in the water ;)
: Merry Christmas, ] 10:34, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

]. Locator map looks wrong...♦ ] 15:59, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
: Ya, quite wrong. It's the 'right' image off ]. I'll comment it out and prolly ask that it be deleted off commons, and un tag-the id-version ({{tl|nowcommons}}. Then I'll leave whomever on id:wp a note asking about it. From ,aps.google, I'd say that's ] (which is a redirect to a place in ], not what gmaps is showing me in Sumatra. Good catch; I was on auto-pilot, and there were a lot of e-interruptions while I as doing this. Before some one else does, I'll say we need a feckin' reliable source ;) Cheers, ] 19:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

== Comment & question ==

Your talk page is too wide for my netbook's screen; I have to scroll back and forth.

On an unrelated note, I've taken on ] and am acting as his mentor after he almost got himself blocked at ANI. Can't find a userbox anywhere to announce this (I'd like people to bring up any issues with me so I can put out embers before anyone dumps gas on them). Know of any or do I need to make one? <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;">]]</span> 09:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

: some min-width or white-space style, I expect. I'll look, but not now. Feel free to muck about; kill my edit notice to get it out of the way. It might be browser-specific... Ya know, it works for my using only half the screen ;)
: Surprised re Bart; didn't see the ani but have not been impressed by some things I've seen outta that account. There might be a box off ]. You know I created the ] page? 2005. I figured out the ''why'' of the gold and black ;) Merry Christmas, ] 09:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

== I don't know why I bother... ==
{{discussion-top}}
For the last time, I am not here 'only to hunt sockpuppets', 'hunting sockpuppets' is just 'the only thing I'm ''good'' at'. I never said I ''only hunt sockpuppets''; I do other stuff, I browse for random articles and make minor fixes when I see them, I remove original research that's been unsourced for a year or several months, I keep watch over several BLPs to counteract vandalism, as well as several highly-vandalized articles. I sometimes new page patrol, tag for deletion, or approve. If a source is brought up on an article I watch concerning a specific bit of information, and just the url doesn't look reliable to me, I do check it out, and if I can't find something that signifies a RS, I take it to RSN.
::Removed. Don't refactor my posts again.— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 09:03, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
::: Restored wo/the big. This is my talk page; you posted it here; it stays. ] 09:38, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
For the last time, I am not here 'only to hunt sockpuppets', 'hunting sockpuppets' is just 'the only thing I'm ''good'' at'. I never said I ''only hunt sockpuppets''; I do other stuff, I browse for random articles and make minor fixes when I see them, I remove original research that's been unsourced for a year or several months, I keep watch over several BLPs to counteract vandalism, as well as several highly-vandalized articles. I sometimes new page patrol, tag for deletion, or approve. If a source is brought up on an article I watch concerning a specific bit of information, and just the url doesn't look reliable to me, I do check it out, and if I can't find something that signifies a RS, I take it to RSN.

How many times do I have to say that I am not here to ''only hunt sockpuppets'', but ''hunting sockpuppets is the only thing I'm good at''. Large, very very large, distinction.— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 06:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


I can even make an analogy;

I am ''only good at 3d animation'', however, that does not mean that ''3d animation is the only thing I do'', I also know html, mirc scripting language, light parser functions, light php, light photoshop, light GIMP, light Cinema 4D, medicore AutoCAD, light woodworking, light electronics, painting, drawing.

"Only good at" does not in the least mean "only thing I do".— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 06:34, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

<div style="margin: 1em 6em; background-color: #eee; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #999, #eee); padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #999; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em; font-size: 115%;">
<p style="text-align: center; font-size: larger;">''''']'''''</p>
''“You want a pig,” said Roger, “like in a real hunt.”''

''“Or someone to pretend,”'' said Jack. ''“You could get someone to dress up as a pig and then he could act&nbsp;— you know, pretend to knock me over and all that&nbsp;—”''

''“You want a real pig,”'' said Robert, still caressing his rump, ''“because you've got to kill him.”''

''“Use a littlun,”'' said Jack, and everybody laughed.

<p style="text-align: right; margin-right: 2em;">
Ch. 8: Gift for the Darkness<br />
'']'' by ]
</p>

----

* “<del>only</del>”
* <strong><em>“hunt”</em></strong>

You're not listening. You're good at “hunting” *people*&nbsp;— sure a lot of socks are disruptive, are ''trolls'', but they're all human beings. This is an ], not a ]. See also: ].<sup>(])</sup>

<span style="float: right; background-color: #eee; background: -moz-radial-gradient(bottom right 90deg, farthest-side, #777, #eee); display: inline-block; padding: 0.3em 1em 0.2em; border: 1px solid #777; box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -moz-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); -webkit-box-shadow: 0.1em 0.1em 0.5em rgba(0,0,0,0.75); border-radius: 1em; -moz-border-radius: 1em; -webkit-border-radius: 1em;">] 08:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)</span>
{{clear}}
</div>
:You're not listening either, you seem to be stuck on the false assumption that I think wikipedia is a game; I don't. You also are again, assuming bad faith as usual; you're assuming I don't think they're human beings, despite the fact that I've never said anything close to that. Yes, they're human, but that's rather irrelevant in the scheme of things. I call them sockpuppets because that's the terminology used on this website, just as a homicide detective tracks down a serial killer; calling the committee of the crime a 'serial killer' doesn't make them any less human, it simply groups them into a category of similar traits, such as killing in a recognizable pattern, like the Zodiac Killer for instance. It's the same with alternate accounts, 'sockpuppets'. This account that you now edit under is a sockpuppet, so I'm quite sure I don't need to explain to you the name semantics. Do I really need to explain to you why I call a sockpuppet a sockpuppet? Its easy for me to type out, I don't always know their real name.. not like they would give it out, and even if I did, more often than not, 'sock' is much shorter than anything I've seen. Jaraxle.. something. I don't remember his last name, the first 'vandal' of wikipedia, operating through page-move vandalism by moving various titles to 'x on wheels'. Either way, sock, being only four letters, is easier and quicker to type than 'Jaraxle', every single time they are referred to, or even WoW(Willy on Wheels, etc).
:To using 'hunt' to track down socks.. again, assuming bad faith, and too much bad faith on a single word. It's a word, it isn't some easily identifiable trait that you can use as an excuse to assume bad faith. I didn't put much thought into using it, it seemed rather natural. I'm sure you know what hunting is... finding your quarry by tracking down the evidence that it was there, the eating habits, the foot prints, the behavior.
:I know they're human, but what I know most of all is that they are mentally children, at least by my standards of what an adult should be, such as learning when to drop something.. and on that note..

:In various discussions in which you were not involved, you have told me to 'drop the stick'. Well, I have an all-resounding question for you: Why haven't you dropped it. Again and again you bring up your bad-faith, false assumption that I think wikipedia is a game. Why don't you give it a rest and drop it yourself.— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 09:03, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

:: You mean ], moar recently known as Grawp, who, by teh way is far from the projects first major vandal. Or Willy. Dae, I've been here more than six years, I've seen moar, and know moar, about this site, it's problems, and it's problematic editors than you can imagine. I know Grawp's real name. As I see an {{ec}}, below, I'll save this. I've not gotten an email, yet, and may-well have no interest in talking with you about whatever you send. You're not convincing me of much with all your running-on here, either. ] 09:38, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

..Further, for again, someone who tells others to 'drop the stick', or tells others they are 'treating wikipedia as a game', you are doing both of these things. You are first of all continuing with the bad-faith assumptions on myself, instead of assuming good faith, so why don't you drop that stick. On the subject of 'games', in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with you, you make a comment that has naught to do with the topic at hand, by a snipe aimed directly at myself. Perhaps aimed to 'get my goat', to 'piss me off'.

You should try taking your own medicine sometimes; drop the stick, and stop commenting in issues which concern me, only to snipe at me without addressing the real issues at hand. Your bad faith assumptions about what you think I do, and why you think I do it really don't have any place in a dispute that has nothing to do with you.— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 09:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Against my better judgment, I am going to tell you in detail why I don't like drama, through email, as saying anything on wiki would simply incite more chaos. Despite what you believe, I don't like creating drama, and I'll explain why after I save this post in email to you.— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 09:21, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:: Dae, I got it, and will say it's useful. And confidential. I'll reply. Merry Christmas, ] 10:07, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:Good choice to continue by email - this mini-drama isn't helping anyone write or maintain an encyclopedia, is it? (Jack: maintenance includes dealing with disruptive users, including sockpuppet issues.) ] <sup>]</sup> 09:31, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:: Moments after my last post above, I did receive an email. Yes, I agree with your parenthetical; I do a lot of that, myself. A lot of it off-wiki, cross-wiki, and I certainly can't tell <joke>a mere admin what I mean</joke>. And really, that's a joke; I'm not riffing on ya, at all; it means '''I can't say.''' An appropriate 'hat' btw. And both of ya, see my post @Mbz1. I do see a world of problems, there. Merry Christmas, ] 10:07, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
{{discussion-bottom}}


Jack and I have discussed the above through email, and everything is okay now.— ''']]<sup><big><span class="plainlinks"></span></big> ]</sup>''' 04:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
: yup; I've just been focused on other things; we'll do lunch and have a cuppa chai ;) No worries, ] 05:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

== Lord of the Flies quotes ==

You do use a lot of '']'' (1954, ]) quotes, don't you? I'm just dropping by here to point out that the one you used on ANI (copied from the above talk page thread) failed to attribute the source and author. Many will recognise it, but many won't. I see that in the other quotes you use on this talk page, you do sometimes mention the work you are quoting from, if not the author, but in the notice people see when they edit this page (or rather, the ] you use), you don't attribute source or author. Would you consider doing that? If you added the chapters as well, it would save me having to look that up in my copy of the book. ] (]) 16:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

: Sure, that's an entirely reasonable request. I also have ] which has the chapters; that used to be linked off my user page but was cut when I moved to the dynamic one. I believe all the ones in the switch are right out of that, so the info is at hand. There's also ] which I did a lot of.
: As discussed elsewhere, it's about time to drop this theme and the ties that bind. I'm marinating on ideas for a rename and a new theme and welcome input (privately, lest some /b-tard grabs a name mentioned publicly). I've always been a fan of the work your id's from; the good names must be taken, and I'm not thinking of any those from the dark side. Cheers, <span style="margin-right: -3.25em; white-space: nowrap">] <span style="display: inline-block; position: relative; left: -1.8em; top: 0.6em;"><span style="line-height: 0.8em; font-size: 0.7em;">aka ]</span></span></span> 20:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
::: {{Done}}<sup>{{diff|User:Jack Merridew/Quote switch|404362209|282731720|diff}}</sup> ;) ] 22:44, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
::I'm waiting for a proposal to rename admins 'big'uns', leaving editors as 'little'uns'. ] (] '''·''' ]) 21:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:::: We do have ]s and ]s. But the bit's not the appropriate division. It's about ''voice''. Who do you *really* listen to? Who's posts do you gloss over a tad faster? Who do you ignore? And who makes ''sense'', and who does not? Cheers, ] ;) 21:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:::If you worked on the Disney articles enough, you'd recognise how tempting that truly is, all thoughts of irony aside. Nothing like being locked in a struggle with a seven-year-old child to remind you of your own value to the world.—](]) 21:20, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
:::: Teh ] phase of my user page is up, today. Got a cite for his age ;) fwiw, I'll AGF that you *know* Cheers, ] 21:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks for making those changes. I had almost forgotten what happened to Simon! I must try and get hold of a good source that analyses the book and others of Golding's works (I've read '']'' and have but haven't read '']''). ] (]) 07:56, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
::: You're most welcome ;) Simon's key... but what about the boy with teh ] birthmark on his face? All were responsible, too; just a bunch of feckin' kids running ] absent limits. I've not read the others. fyi, I got some very interesting old letters that I may be posting bits of ;) Cheers, ] (]) 08:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

== Happy, happy ==

] (]) 15:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)]]

: Gracias, ] 18:20, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
{{clear}}

== ] ==

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, David! I'm ] by the way.
Probably, you search the location from google map/earth (which got some of its data from ], which is in the end, from ]). And yes, you will find Subulussalam, up in the north coast, near ], which I believe is incorrect (don't know who's to blame). Another simple google search on "peta subulussalam", will direct you to created by ] in 2009, to which ] are based on. So, please just revert your edit in ]. Thanks for uploading the locator maps to the commons. I didn't have much time to create new maps again, but the chance is always there :). ] (]) 17:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

: {{Done}} I've no wiki time for a bit. We'll talk, later, terima kasih. ] 18:12, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

: {{diff|User talk:Jack Merridew|413076871|412859252|Fixing this extra pipe}} helped. I've got that doc, now, and it clears some of this up. The pdf is about a ] (Regency), not the Kota (city). So, I expect there are two; a city on the north coast, and a (newly created?) regency down in the south of ]. The file, ] will need renaming, and new articles on the various wikis created about ] (and ])... Cheers, ] 18:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

:: Hi David, the PDF map is wrong about the name. You will need to take a look to about the founding of the city (the MS Word link). Notice the list of kecamatan in page 3, and the list of Kecamatan in the PDF map. When I created the map, I was also curious about this also. So I asked my friend who worked in BRR (who made the map), but he doesn't have any real answer about this thing too. :D. --] (]) 19:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

::: Hi, Romi. This is so strange. The Ministry of Home Affairs should be a reliable source for this, as should the Rehabilitation and Reconstruction Agency. But the coords off centre of the pdf, {{coord|2|44|0|N|97|56|0|E|display=inline}},<sup class="plainlinks"></sup> show a mostly rural area, and it's big, at least 30km×40km. There must be some political deal, here; Aceh getting another Kota and all the extra funding that entails; then they'll build it. All related to the tsunami, ending the war, and autonomy.
::: This link:
:::*
::: gives 2.6423, 98.0041:
:::*
::: which is just a tad to the east and would seem to be the ''town/desa ''Subulussalam that's capital of kecematan Simpangkiri.
::: I also found:
:::* http://subulussalamkota.go.id/
::: which puts on a great little show of being down for maintenance. And the fact that Google and the others are showing it on the north coast will be difficult to argue against. Anyway, time and more sources will sort this all out. There are lots of others to plod through, in the meantime. Cheers, ] 20:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

== Template expertise and symbols ==

For all the ]s: Anybody good with templates who can produce a template for replacing the dagger symbol (†) with an image and optional alt text (default alt text would be "dagger")?

The relevant debates are at ] (general background concerning card symbols) and ] (specific request for a replacement for the dagger). If nobody's able, I'll have a go at it myself later. Thanks in advance --] (]) 20:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Update: I've made ] ] for use as the image. --] (]) 21:24, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
: What do you want it called? And, all it does is produce <nowiki>]</nowiki>? I believe we even have a category for such templates (]). ] ] 21:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::How about {{tl|dagger}}? And yes, that's what it produces, but the alt text is over-rideable with an additional parameter. ] (]) 21:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
:::: Hey, Jack said to tell you that he knows he owes you a reply. Just busy, is all; Sincerely, ] (]) 05:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
::: Done. You could also create a shortcut, from say {{tl|†}}, if it makes the presentation in the wikitext less cumbersome. ] ] 22:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::Sounds like a good idea. Thanks for your help so far. ] (]) 22:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::Just for clarification, if the alt parameter isn't used, does it default to alt text saying "dagger"? That's what we're after... ] (]) 22:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::: I knew Plastikspork would sort it if available. Many thanks! I just experimented with a version at ], but it's nice to have all the documentation and categories (which confuses me).
::::: @TRM: Here's the template in use with no parameter: {{dagger}} and with customised alt text: {{dagger|alt=wicketkeeper}}. I can confirm that the alt text in the first case is "dagger". and in the second case "wicketkeeper". Looks like a win. --] (]) 22:19, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::@all, thanks. @RexxS, I've asked KV5 to look at incorporating it into the Phillies list. Fingers crossed. ] (]) 22:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::: And here's {{tl|double-dagger}} - it looks like this: {{double-dagger}} with no parameter, and this {{double-dagger|alt=customised text}} with "alt=customised text". --] (]) 22:30, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::: And for completeness the redirect template: {{tl|‡}}. I'll try to open discussion at MOS tomorrow. --] (]) 22:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::::: Just a minor point. The version that you have in your userspace has different behavior if "alt" is specified, but left blank, e.g., <nowiki>{{dagger|alt=}}</nowiki>. The version I created, doesn't allow this, and overrides it with "dagger". If you want to be able to blank this all together (which seems like a sensible option to allow), change the <nowiki>{{ifempty|{{{alt|}}}|dagger}}</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{{alt|dagger}}}</nowiki>. Thanks! ] ] 23:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::::: Thanks for that. My instinct was only to keep it simple, using the default switch, rather than testing for an empty parameter. I can see now that my version would allow null alt text, but that's only useful if the image is purely decorative, perhaps when used inside a link together with actual text (like flags, but I can't imagine such a scenario for the dagger). On balance, I think your version is more fail-safe; if somebody actually needs empty alt text, then we know how to do it. Regards --] (]) 00:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

: Jack's pretty busy, and ya'll seem to be sorting this out. I'll make sure he takes a look at this stuff. Cheers, ] (]) 05:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
*'''Note''' - Okay. Remove this from your page as "trolling" if you must, but I am misunderstanding something apparently ]. You are {{user|Gold Hat}}, and Gold Hat is you. It's ''your'' user talk page, and that's great. Gold Hat seems to think "Jack" is a different person, (point #4 again). If this is an "inside joke" of some sort it is seriously not funny anymore. Socking is "cute": we get it. Alternate accounts: high comedy! Change your user name already... ] ] 13:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
*:: Doc, ya; you're misunderstanding a lot, so my advice to you is to shut-up and stay off my talk page. There's no horse to beat here, just you and a damn stick. And watch out for the feckin' ]. Seriously, ] (]) 18:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
*: I'd beg to differ, Doc. Gold Hat only posts in places where everybody reading is perfectly aware that he's Jack (like here), so there's really no possibility of confusion. You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, of course, but I find it quite humorous, and I'm not averse to the occasional ''faux sig'' myself at times :D --] (]) 18:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

== Re: Navigasi ID ==

Sorry, I've never thought to contact you before I requested deletion of that template. Sorry to reply late. I just returned to my home after a week on a holiday trip abroad. Thank you and happy new year. '''<span style="background-color: #fff">]&nbsp;]</span>''' 12:46, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

: Your project's loss. ] 08:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

== Help from a div expert ==

Hey, I hope you had a good new year. I have a question for you regarding position of overlapping images using divs. Basically, I would like to display ] with ] as an inset in one of the corners. Now, I have something working in the sandbox for Location map (see discussion at ]), but I'm not sure if it's the cleanest implementation. My initial testing seems to indicate that the div needs to know the dimensions of the width/height of the image if I want to place it in any corner other than the upper-left. However, I may just be missing the full power of the div positioning syntax. This isn't a serious problem, but it does make the code more complicated. I can post a simplified example of each corner case if it helps. Thanks! ] ] 03:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
:Hey, Plastikspork, I don't know when Jack's likely to check in, but if it's any help, you can use relative positioning for a div by specifying top or bottom, left or right. Is this the effect you want?:
:<div style="background-color:#0C0; position:relative; top=0px; left=0px; width:300px;">]<div style="position:absolute; z-index:2; bottom:10px; right:10px;">]</div></div>
:<tt><nowiki><div style="background-color:#0C0; position:relative; top=0px; left=0px; width:300px;">]<div style="position:absolute; z-index:2; </nowiki><u>bottom:10px; right:10px;</u><nowiki>">]</div></div></nowiki></tt>
:You have to make sure the overlaid div is positioned absolute with a positive z-index, and is contained within a div that has relative positioning set. The parameters to change in order to reference different sides are underlined. I'm sorry it's a bit late at night for me to try to unravel the template you're using, but if that's what you're looking for, you're probably the best person to work out how to incorporate this into your template. HTH --] (]) 05:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
::Great, I think that works (see ]). For some reason the stuff I was trying didn't work for the right and bottom. This is much cleaner than what I had. Thanks again! ] ] 05:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
::: What-Ralph-said ;) It also helps to add <code> height: 1%;</code> to the outer div; IE6 gets stupid about bottom and right and positions relative to the bot and/or right of the overall viewport (your browsers client area) without the feckin' height; it's a method of turning on their damn hasLayout. I think this is discussed on http://www.positioniseverything.net/ and I know it's in . See: , for examples (2 instances). I'm traveling and have no significant wiki-time. Cheers, ] 06:31, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

== ] ==

Care to explain why it is not a violation of your editing restrictions ("User:Jack Merridew agrees to edit from one account only "Jack Merridew" on all WMF wikis with the exception of an additional bot account approved through the regular process")? ] (]) 10:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

: It's been disclosed to arbs; they're not worried and there's an email thread about lifting all the restrictions as water under the bridge. Xeno usurped ] for me, too. Cheers, ] 16:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
: <code><canvassing></code>
:* ] or teh ankle biter will get you !!!!
: <code></canvassing></code>
: Cheers, ] (]) 16:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
::]. Mostly so that some other newbie admin does not see it and block you for a year :) ] (]) 01:04, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
::: I'm fine with this getting sorted sooner, really. NB: the year-block was part of the 2008 motion, lifted in Dec 2009. Cheers, ] 01:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

{{Misplaced Pages:Whacking with a Wet Trout}}{{-}}

That oughta teach ya'll a thang 'r 2 ;) Jeers, ] (]) 17:00, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

== SpaceX Dragon ==

Hi, I have a question for you, which I posted at ] regarding the use of {{tl|Infobox spacecraft}}. Also, I've suggested that page be renamed to "Dragon (spacecraft)", and your input would be welcome. Thanks! ] (]) 22:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

== Jared Lee Loughner ==

I think your clean up of references in Jared Lee Loughner is commendable, but you may want to take note of edit conflicts as you are wiping out some good faith edits by other contributors. ] (]) 23:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
: Okay, I see what you are doing. ] (]) 23:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
:: {{ec}} ;) Thanks; I do watch for {{ec}}s, and fix'em up, and see one re atheism... but was reading the talk... and now here. This stuff happens on current event articles; fix things as you go... Cheers, ] 00:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
::: I had described this to another editor before in a situation like this: I feel like one of several ] racing to see who will be the first to bang out ''Hamlet''. ] (]) 04:39, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
:::: This really is common; I picture a school of minnows; I'm not biting them, but I'll sail right through the school ;) These hyper-edited articles sort out fine, in the end. I'm having to do things over, and over, too. Cheers, ] 04:47, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
::::: Hello, another editor brought up italicization of website titles (or ideally lack thereof if not a periodical or publication) in reference cite templates. Do you mind if I go through the Jared Lee Loughner and clean some of this up when the insanity dies down? ] (]) 06:05, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::: You seem to have the appropriate views on this sort of thing. Mere formatting details such as 'italic' or not, are the job of the cite templates; pass the right values as the appropriate templates and things will be rendered per the consensus on how the templates should work. nb: *avoid* practices such as <tt><nowiki>... | work = ''foo'' | ... </nowiki></tt> as an attempt to force things; just pass the "foo" to "work" or "publisher" ... and let the template handle the formatting. the underlying rational is this concept: ]. I'm going to look at the referencing on the shooting the victims article, too, and try and cross-pollinate the work from ]'s. Cheers, ] 18:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::: In the utmost irony, I (having previously nominated this article for AfD) am contemplating nominating it for DYK after observing its improvement by interested editors. I notice that you are one of the most active editors on the article; do you consider your work merely technical in the formatting or would you like to be considered one of the contributing editors for the nomination? I will take any response in good faith. :) ] (]) 18:31, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::::: I'm wearing my techie-hat, and don't much care for DYK-Bling. I support the improvement of articles, of course, but consider DYK a ] for the main page and would support efforts to redesign the main page to focus on other things. I run a humour account {{user|Gold Hat}}, and 'his' theme is: “Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!” (and not needing adminship to have a serious voice around here) And I equate “DYK-Bling” with “Badges”.
::::::::* nb: ]
:::::::: By all means take it to DYK if you think it warranted, and please don't take my comments as criticism of your efforts or those of others; DYK isn't going away any time soon. So, please leave me off any nom; I'll keep at the gnomish stuff. Cheers, ] ''';)''' 19:20, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::::: I feel the same way about DYK badges. It's very ] of you to decline them. Also, do you really watchlist every page you edit? Your watchlist must look like ]... ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 19:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::: I see the DYK concept as a bad ]. It is driven by a focus on general readers, which is appropriate; *we* don't much look at the main page. Internally, it seems mostly editor-game-play. Much the same goes for FA and GA; we should have many, many more of those, but I see game-play there, too; ].
:::::::::: I have my prefs set to watch everything I edit, and I do have a huge watchlist; 9,168 ATM. I do cull it occasionally. I don't watch most of the E&C stuff, anymore, or the D&D stuff. I sometimes paste lists of interesting articles into my watchlists. Recall that I have multiple accounts; I still use them for watching specific classes of articles (not much, though). Cheers, ] 20:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::: Thank you. Your sentiments sound more altruistic than most. I see DYK as a necessary evil to use human nature to force some improvement of articles beyond stub level. I have seen other editors look down on GA in a similar way below FA. ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::: Certainly, it's about tapping into human nature; it's about '']'', aggregation of shinny trinkets, Midas and Gold. Is that part of a ] environment? Seen Good luck, ] ;) ] 02:27, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

== Loughners 'atheism' ==

Hi.
I was unsure from what you wrote on the talk page whether you were intending to revert the accidental reinsertion of this statement? As it stands, it is still in the article, and I'd rather not remove it again myself - a strict interpretation of WP:3RR might cause problems, whereas a self-revert doesn't count, as I understand it. If you think it ''should'' be included, I'd appreciate further participation in talk. ] (]) 00:44, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

; The shooter

don't worry about reverting anything the latest person who got involved in the debate cited an article that agrees he's an atheist. --] (]) 00:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

== Dashes and minus signs ==

Hi there, sorry I'm bringing this up a month after it happened, but I just saw of yours. While I can understand that you thought the script changed the hyphens eg - to endashes eg – , it actually changed them to minus signs eg − , which are different to dashes and hyphens according to ]. See also ] where I explained this to Xeno at the time. Cheers, ] (]) 11:28, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

; en dashes vs minus signs vs hyphens

Hi Jack, a user has queried . It does look as though you replaced his minus signs with hyphens, as they had been before his edit. Minus signs are longer than hyphens and a little shorter (and horizontally placed lower, I think) than en dashes. Mathematicians are very fussy about them, and the MoS insists on them in that context. I checked with GregU, the dash-script inventor, and he assured me it does insert minus signs, not en dashes, in such contexts. ] ] 11:39, 11 January 2011 (UTC) PS, oh, and now I see that Jenks has posted here too. Sorry for the overload. ] ] 11:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
:{| class="wikitable"
|+ Dash comparison
|-
| <span style="font-size:4em; line-height:1.2em;">-40</span>
| hyphen 40
|-
| <span style="font-size:4em; line-height:1.2em;">&minus;40</span>
| minus 40
|-
| <span style="font-size:4em; line-height:1.2em;">&ndash;40</span>
| en dash 40
|}
: This may help any of the talk page watchers. You can use ctrl-+ (zoom) on the ArbCom results diffs to see that the script that Jenks used actually did change the hyphens to minus signs, as I'm sure Jack will acknowledge when he gets the chance. One small point for Tony, my browser/font combination places minus signs slightly ''higher'' than hyphens, but other combinations may differ, of course. HTH --] (]) 12:50, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
::Excellent! That's much better than my (pretty poor) explanation above :) ] (]) 12:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess my-bad; I see it's fix, so ''maaf''. Gotta go, will reply further. I thought they had been changed to endash's ;) Cheers, ] 14:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

== Diane Kruger redux ==

Remember all that drama with that sock user changing the main photo on ]? Well, two brand new users are doing it now. I suspect them to be socks but have no proof. Just a heads up. --] (]) 15:04, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

: Thanks; I believe I saw one a few weeks back... will keep an eye on it and have them blocked ;) as warranted. Cheers, ] 16:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

== Indonesia ==
Hi Jack. Hope you are OK. Are you still going to continue uploading the maps for the regencies?♦ ] 10:48, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

: Ya, I'm ok, just busy. I've done some of the ones for a few provinces of Sumatra; I believe the Kota of Sumatera Barat are next.<sup>{{diff|South Solok|406838242|406274237|last}}</sup> Cheers, ] 14:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Excellent.♦ ] 17:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

: I'll get on a batch, today ;) Cheers, ] 17:43, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

That's great. Mental note to start the remaining regencies sometime..♦ ] 12:45, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

== ] ==

Hey, don't worry about Bidgee. S/he reverts without response any additions to his/her talk page that s/he doesn't like for whatever reason. As is his/her right per ]. See also {{diff|User talk:Bidgee|402968376|402968314|diff}}, {{diff|User talk:Bidgee|394764173|394762882|diff}} and {{diff|User talk:Bidgee|391044129|391042516|diff}} (among other instances). We'll assume that it is because the message has been received, so there's no reason to get worried about it. -''<font face="Tahoma">]</font>'' (]) 06:32, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

: G'day, Danjel; pleased to meet you. I understand that some users remove comments from their talk pages; I do so, myself, on occasion. I don't think my comments<sup> </sup> were or . I see you've been around this project for a long time; I've been here more than six years, too. I'm not worried about Bidgee&nbsp;— at all; I follow dispute resolution assiduously (and successfully;). If Bidgee wants to remove my comments from their talk page, that's fine. They're obviously still in the history and if there are further disputes, I'll simply move to the next steps, one of which would be seeking third opinions, such as pinging you. I'm interested in ] because it's a major event, and it has impact on friends of mine in Queensland and elsewhere in Oz. Cheers, <span style="margin-right: -3.25em; white-space: nowrap">] <span style="display: inline-block; position: relative; left: -1.8em; top: 0.6em;"><span style="line-height: 0.8em; font-size: 0.7em;">aka ]</span></span></span> 20:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

:: It's not that they were bad faith. If anything, they were excellent examples of a person trying to collaborate. It's just that your edits portrayed Bidgee in a negative light (somewhat), and s/he doesn't allow such comments to stay on their talk page. Personally, I don't like Bidgee's idea of removing these comments without response or resolution, but whatever. -''<font face="Tahoma">]</font>'' (]) 02:36, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

::: Bidgee ''calling'' {{diff|User talk:Bidgee|407904848|407519364|my comment}} a doesn't ''make it so'' ;) I specifically said, that I'd assume good faith, i.e. that Bidgee probably had not intended to {{diff|2010–2011 Queensland floods|407628669|407628261|wrap an inappropriate citation around a link}}. This sort of thing could *easily* have been a simple ] mistake, and a simple 'oops' would have resolved it. Instead, my query went unanswered and Bidgee subsequently {{diff|2010–2011 Queensland floods|407952887|407951547|wholesale reverted}} a {{diff|2010–2011 Queensland floods|407952556|407951547|pair of my edits}}. *That* has my attention. You'll note that I'm adept at offering diffs ;) I'm a very, very, experienced editor, known for sharing perceived problems with the community, so that a collaborative solution may be found. Terima kasih, ] 04:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

::::No worries. Best of luck with figuring it all out. Saya ikanmas gila. -''<font face="Tahoma">]</font>'' (]) 04:23, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear, you seem to have run into WP:Aus, Best of luck dealing with that difficult bunch!!♦ ] 22:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
: No worries, I haz mates down-under. Some bonzer-blokes, too. Iz No Big Deel ;) I'll get to teh maps; promise! Cheers, ] 22:50, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

== For the record ==

With respect to {{diff|Talk:2011 Tucson shooting|408162051|408161888|this}}, if I'd taken the time to look at this editor's contributions, I would have (I hope) realised that a more detailed explanation was needed, and the request for more information was reasonable. Perhaps restoring the information before the explanation wasn't the best practice, but it's easy to forget what it was like to be relatively inexperienced, gain sufficient confidence to do something a bit bold, and then be shot down. This article isn't why this editor came here, given the article s/he was working on at about the same time as the events described in that article, and I have a feeling this might just be the kind of editor we want to encourage. ] (]) 07:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

: Hi. I'd glossed the contribs, but had not looked past the most-recent 50, and I didn't realizse that there were contribs dating back further than this incident. ( had note the recent block/unblock. I believe that the editor was acting in good faith, as were you, and had no idea of the fezs you bear. I've looked further and see reasonable edits; {{diff|Talk:Westboro Baptist Church|408153125|408152883|this one}} in particular caught my eye. Anyone down on WBC and appreciative of ]<sup>(I was involved in a production of it;)</sup> is on the right track by me. I'll go leave Avanu a note. Cheers, ] (who's pretty busy;) 18:45, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

== Happy 10th ==

<div style="border-style:solid; border-color:#000000; border-width:1px; text-align:left; padding:8px;" class="plainlinks">]
<p style="text-decoration: center;">'''Happy 10th anniversary of Misplaced Pages!'''</p>
]] (]) has bought you a whisky! Sharing a whisky is a great way to bond with other editors after a day of hard work. Spread the ] by buying someone else a whisky, whether it be someone with whom you have collaborated or had disagreements. Enjoy!

What goes around, comes around. Spread the good cheer and camaraderie by adding {{tlsu|User:HJ Mitchell/WikiScotch}} to their talk page with a friendly message. <small>] (]) 15:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC) </small>
</div><!-- Template:WikiPint -->

== Jack, would love to hear your thoughts on this ==

]. ] <sub>]</sub> 16:28, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

== Expansion of Infobox spacecraft ==

* ]
You previously commented on the idea of new spacecraft templates. The discussion has reached a point where more review of the current (sandbox) draft ''Spacecraft missions'' and ''Spacecraft class'' templates would be helpful. Info and links are on the Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spaceflight page in the Infobox spaceflight section. Cheers. ] (]) 23:59, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

: Terima kasih; I'll have a look and comment. ] 00:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

== Well, it's free! ==

]

Hello, this is just to let you know that I have granted you the ] permission. This won't affect your editing, it just automatically marks any page you create as patrolled, benefiting ]. Please remember:
* This permission does not give you any special status or authority
* Submission of inappropriate material may lead to its removal
* You may wish to display the {{tl|Autopatrolled}} top icon and/or the {{tl|User wikipedia/autopatrolled}} userbox on your user page
* If, for any reason, you decide you do not want the permission, let me know and I can remove it
If you have any questions about the permission, don't hesitate to ask. Otherwise, happy editing! Your name was on a list of potential candidates. All the best to you, my friend! ;) ] &#124; ] 04:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

: Terima kasih ;) Great timing! Chers, ] 04:49, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
::Since you're online and, unlike me, you're not left scratching your head when it comes to reading code, perhaps you could have a look at ] I left for Amalthea. Basically, I want something like ] and ], but for autowotsit. It would make going through this list a lot faster! I don't know if the absence of an admin bit would affect it, though. ] &#124; ] 04:55, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
::: but I can't look now; about to log-in to real world... Tomorrow. Cheers, ] 04:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
::: Hi; I looked and see it's {{done}}. You see how this is just a slight variant of the others? I used a file compare util to review them. Of course, I can't test such feckin' thangs wo/mop ;) Mop-less has its advantages, though: freedom ;) Cheers, ] 01:18, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

== Tidy ==

Just wondering, your tidy clean up on ], was it not supposed to lessen the article's space? It did the exact opposite. ] • <sup>'']''</sup> 18:35, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

: Hi, Shahid. 'tidy' doesn't mean less space, it means neat, orderly, clear. ] around stuff makes it easier for editors to read, so, sure, the number of bytes went up; ''hard disks are cheap'' ;). {{diff|Preity Zinta|409802540|409798689|this}} was unhelpful, really; it adds semantic structure to the table, i.e. it's explicitly stating that these are all films. Could you please restore that? Also, sometime 'tidying' does result in {{diff|Template:FilmfareAwardBestActress 1954-1960|409800801|378227494|fewer bytes}}. Thanks, ] 18:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::Hey, thank you for your help and quick reply. My question is: is it really a requirement, or is it strongly recommended? Just to clear things, in the near future I'd want to update the page and I'm a bit concerned about its length. Of course this modification of yours does not make much of a difference, but for me, when I'm going to cite more sources, it will be a bit of a trouble since I am used to adding references without using spaces between every parameter, and it will make much more difference where space is concerned. From other FAs I see, they don't have that kind of layout where footnotes go. I tried to find some essential guideline regarding the issue but found nothing.

::Sorry, my intention is not to badger you. I'd just like to know more. From what I see on {{tl|Cite web}}, there's a vertical layout, but the horizontal layout has only one space between each field: See it ]. I think the horizontal layout as it appears in this template's format is fine as it makes it even easier to follow. Could you make it using your script? Thanks for the help.
::PS: As for the filmography, I don't mind restoring your addition. ] • <sup>'']''</sup> 19:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::: ], it's a ]. I prefer the vertical format, but it's too much for inline use; I see the white space as helpful in either format, and as useful as a transitional step to the vertical format, which works best with the references moved down to the reference section. That would make sense, no? References being in the references section? So, *I* strongly recommend whitespace as a readability aid ;) I'll give an example of ]; it's about de-cluttering the text of too much citation markup inline. Cheers, ] 19:57, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::::Thank you, but I was not talking about removing all white spaces, but leaving only one white space after each parameter (ie "cite web |url=http://www.example.org/ |title=My Favorite Things, Part II |author=Doe, John |publisher=Open Publishing |date=30 April 2005 |work=Encyclopedia of Things |accessdate=6 July 2005 |"). Don't you think it would be equally effective? ] • <sup>'']''</sup> 20:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::::: No, I don't find that as readable; I've {{diff|Template:Cite web/doc|409831259|409600094|recommended}} the other form in the documentation. My views are per years of coding experience. Back in the day, memory was limited and computers were slow, and this drove terse forms of things. These days, we haz Gigas of everything and can afford the benefit to editors of making things easier to read. Cheers, ] 21:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
::::: See {{diff|Preity Zinta|409837858|409802540|how this de-cluttered a paragraph of the prose}}... better than half of this article is the citations, and if they were all moved to the references section, the prose would be much, much clearer for editors working on the article. Cheers, ] 21:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::::::Thanks. Jack, I would like all the references to have a consistent YYYY-MM-DD format. It's easier for me and I think it doesn't hurt when used in references. Could you please help me with that? It will take me quite some time to do that. ] • <sup>'']''</sup> 22:42, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

::::::: {{diff|Preity Zinta|409872059|409839596|undone}}. I prefer the YYYY-MM-DD (ISO) format, myself. But it seemed to have been mostly in a DMY form, and I used a tool to convert them all to that format. There's a talk about converting as you prefer at: ] and you could ask after it, there; the "CITE dates to ISO" bit, which would involve grabbing some js Ohconfucius is using... The real issue here, is not your preference, or mine, but: ]. Cheers, ] 01:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
::::::: {{done}} {{diff|Preity Zinta|409877528|409872059|CITE dates to ISO}} one-click ;) Cheers, ] 01:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

== ] ==

FYI, she's back.], adding decorative images. Sigh. ] (]) 20:09, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

== DYK for Jared Lee Loughner ==
{{tmbox
|style = notice
|small =
|image = ]
|text = On ], ''']''' was updated with a fact from the article ''''']''''', which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ''... that ''']''' was detained at the ] after the ]?'' You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page <small>(], )</small> and add it to ] if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ].
}} —] &#124; ] 06:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

== 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash ==
I've reverted your GF conversion of all ref dates to ISO format. My reasons are explained on the article's talk page. You are welcome to comment there if you wish. ] (]) 05:21, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

: I've replied there, Cheers, ] 18:26, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

== File redirects ==

Hi there Jack Merridew, I'm curious as why you created the follow three redirects: ], ], ]. I may be missing something, but I'm not understanding why these were created, especially for files on Commons. Redirects created on Misplaced Pages whose target is on Commons won't display the image, that would require the redirect to be created on Commons. — ]] 21:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

: Hi. Those were images that I initially uploaded and were later transferred to commons with different names and they showed up as as redlinks in my old upload log and in old revs of pages. I've added links to the current commons images to the original upload an now, at least, viewing and old rev gives a link that will get you to the current versions of the image; {{oldid|Calang|9544748|Calang}}, for example. Since the images were never on commons under the old names, I don't think it would be appropriate to create redirects, there. Many deletions should leave a redirect in place, so that things still make sense, years later. And MediaWiki may be enhanced someday to go fetch an image via a cross-wiki redirect. I'm still wondering }}, }}; it's , off . It's free. Cheers, ] 22:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

== Request for image gallery/table assistance ==

]

Hi Jack. I have a set of images that I want to layout for the reader most effectively. Appreciate any coaching or even better if you will just collaborate with us and do the work!

Concerns ], where I have the 4 top shell and 4 bottom shell images. They are just stuck in as based on my (low) ability. Seems like there is a lot of wasted space and some duplication of headers and the like. I would just appreciat whatever you judge best.

I was thinking something like a 4 by 2 with the images somehow defined so that they expand to fill all the space horizionatally (get rid of the unused white margins on sides of gallery and between images), with a title at the top, a header row calling out the subspecies (maybe just common name, not sure on that).

I'm thinking I would like a bottom row (could be top) for mentioning the locations of each turtle as it has implications on what you are seeing. like for EPT top is from NH, bottom is from VA. Midland is same location in Ontario; southern are both unknown and separate, western is OR and CO. But I could also just do an nb note or whatever you think most appropriate for efficiency and beauty.

I'm thinking all of the turtles should be in the same orientation as the intention is to compare subspecies to subspecies so same view is more apples to apples. So that would probably be skull to the left (based on the EPT bottom shell). I would need to go find another WPT top as rotating it doesn't work, can tell horizon or something gets messed up. Getting these 8 images has beens somewhat heroic already, but I'm used to it now.

Would think all the images need to be cropped to same aspect, but this should be pretty doable (I even can uncrop some of them if needed). The shells don't need to be perfectly the same size as the turtles really differ in size by subspecies (western biggest and southern smallest...it's kinda close to "right" now).

I had one of the FP types sniff at me on the top shell views being three-quarters versus straight down, but that's most common photo angle for top shells. And you kinda can see more detail at that angle than the straight down.

WILL YOU HELP US?

] (]) 01:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="margin: 1em auto; text-align: center;"
|+ style="font-size: 2em; margin-bottom: 1em;" | Subspecies of the painted turtle
|-
!
! scope="col" | Eastern painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;picta''
! scope="col" | Midland painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;marginata''
! scope="col" | Southern painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;dorsalis''
! scope="col" | Western painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;bellii''
|-
! scope="row" style="border-bottom: 0; font-weight: bold;" | top shells (carapaces),<br />three-quarter views
| style="border: 0;" | ]
| style="border: 0;" | ]
| style="border: 0;" | ]
| style="border: 0;" | ]
|-
! scope="row" style="border-top: 0;" | location
| style="border: 0;" | New Hampshire
| style="border: 0;" | Ontario
| style="border: 0;" | North America?
| style="border: 0;" | Oregon
|-
! scope="row" style="border-bottom: 0; font-weight: bold;" | bottom shells (plastrons)
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]<br />Virginia?
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]<br />Ontario
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]<br />San Diego
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]<br />Colorado
|-
! scope="row" style="border-top: 0;" | <!-- 'location' omitted ;) -->
| style="border: 0;" | Virginia?
| style="border: 0;" | Ontario
| style="border: 0;" | San Diego
| style="border: 0;" | Colorado
|}

: Hi. Something like this? It would help, ''a lot,'' if these images were all cropped to the same aspect ratio; say 4:3 (h:v), but any common ratio would make it much neater; and the portrait one would have to match, too. I don't like the explicit location rows, but they align vertically; if the cropping were fixed, the alternate form shown in the bottom row, just under the images, would be better, and would neatly align wo/being an explicit row. Any idea who the anon is? Cheers, ] 04:50, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

:: You mean like this?
{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="margin: 1em auto; text-align: center;"
|+ style="font-size: 2em; margin-bottom: 1em;" | Subspecies of the painted turtle
|-
!
! scope="col" | Eastern painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;picta''
! scope="col" | Midland painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;marginata''
! scope="col" | Southern painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;dorsalis''
! scope="col" | Western painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;bellii''
|-
! scope="row" style="border-bottom: 0; font-weight: bold;" | top shells (carapaces),<br />three-quarter views
| style="border: 0;" | ]
| style="border: 0;" | ]
| style="border: 0;" | ]
| style="border: 0;" | ]
|-
! scope="row" style="border-top: 0;" | location
| style="border: 0;" | New Hampshire
| style="border: 0;" | Ontario
| style="border: 0;" | North America?
| style="border: 0;" | Oregon
|-
! scope="row" style="border-bottom: 0; font-weight: bold;" | bottom shells (plastrons)
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]
| style="border-left: 0; border-right: 0; border-bottom: 0;" | ]
|-
! scope="row" style="border-top: 0;" | <!-- 'location' omitted ;) -->
| style="border: 0;" | Virginia?
| style="border: 0;" | Ontario
| style="border: 0;" | San Diego
| style="border: 0;" | Colorado
|}
:: I spotted the request over at Malleus' page and did the images. @TCO: When you find the proper Western painted turtle image, just upload it with a new filename and drop me a note – I'll sort the aspect ratio to match and reupload over that one. --] (]) 06:35, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict, had a big long message but forget it. Was a mix of praise and requests. Nice progress, you two! Could we lose the stuff on the left please, though. I know it was from me, but looking at it, we don't need it and I would rather use the space, to allow the pics to spread further.)] (]) 06:43, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

::: {{ec}} @Ralph; That would be the next step, ya ;) I meant to then combine the rows, to simplify the markup:

{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="margin: 1em auto; text-align: center;"
|+ style="font-size: 2em; margin-bottom: 1em;" | Subspecies of the painted turtle
|-
! scope="col" | Eastern painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;picta''
! scope="col" | Midland painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;marginata''
! scope="col" | Southern painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;dorsalis''
! scope="col" | Western painted turtle<br />''C.&nbsp;p.&nbsp;bellii''
|-
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />New Hampshire
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />Ontario
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />North America?
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />Oregon
|-
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />Virginia?
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />Ontario
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />San Diego
| style="border: 0;" | ]<br />Colorado
|}

::: Jack's reference desk, at your service; tidying code since 2004 (longer in other contexts;) I saw that that came from Malleus' page, too ;) 06:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

::: @ TCO; and I've cut the left jazz, too. Cheers, ] 06:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

:::: OK, please ''tell me which picture you like the best.'' I'm leaning towards NM, but don't let that bias.

]
]

* CA (invasive). Pretty pic, but the green makes it hard as an ID shot. And the wet makes the white lines invisible.
* NM Has lots of resulution to allow cropped use. Beautiful looking picture. Not completely ideal for ID because can't see white segment lines (although really plastron is the way to ID WPT). Also, the view is a bit more side on than the others.
* MN would really be a good ID shot, but am concerned that blowing up in a crop will look bad (not much resolution).] (]) 07:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

: I don't know turtles, but the "NM" looks best to me; You can see the details better if you view the full-res, which ''is'' there. The head is a bit blurry, though. The "MN" is a nice pic, but mebbe better elsewhere.
: See the ref fixes I made; {{tl|sfn}} allows automatic collating of duplicates, so you don't have to fuss over naming them at all. On Carr, you can also now click a item in the ref section and be taken to the Bibliography (the added ref=harv). ] can de-clutter the prose a *lot*. Cheers, ] 07:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

# NM it IS!
# You were kicking so much butt. I love it. Will go back over the diffs and try to learn something from it. Feel like I just elevated my game. Will show it to NYM also. I don't even know what doi is, or how to anchor a ref or any of that.
# So glad I wandered over here! ] (]) 07:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

: See ]. And I should see ]? There's a lot more that could be done there; we're here to help. Cheers, ] 08:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

:: Thanks again! Feel free to make other changes or give feedback. ] (]) 08:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
::: New image is done and has now replaced the old rotated image. Refresh your browser if it's not showing. --] (]) 15:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
:::: Hi Jack, the anon tipster is ]. I do not want to log in at an internet cafe as I am an admin now, and apparently there is some risk others could access teh tools. I am in ] today. Regards, --] (]) 16:48, 6 February 2011 (UTC) (Diannaa, in Banff)
::::: Oh, you need a sock account for such things; they're fun, and free, and can be legitimized ;) Enjoy your time; it's beautiful. ] 22:12, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::: Yes, I need a wee sock, but couldn't think of a good name. You've set the bar pretty high, Mr ]. --] <sup>(])</sup> 20:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::: And thank you for helping these folks with their turtle gallery! --] <sup>(])</sup> 20:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::: ], of course ;) ] 23:21, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::::: And I was so sure that ] would be the right choice. --] (]) 03:05, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::::: but that's taken; most of the kewl names are. <em class="plainlinks"></em>. Cheers, ] 03:15, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::I thought my ears wuz burning :) I still have no ultra-cool sockpuppet. What about ]? BTW, I stole your turtle-boxen today and gave the code to a friend; see ]. It seems some of the recent software upgrades are making Jack's predictions of HTML doom come true. --] <sup>(])</sup> 03:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::: trailing "|-" in wikitables are debris; I fixed it, but where might it have gotten copied to... I made up "Aappollo" per ], but that may not be what you're referring to with the username.; this was what Ralph was alluding to, too. I know the new rev of MediaWiki caused some stir; I noticed the changes to prefs, immediately, on multiple projects. People forget that wiki-text is just a set of conventions that MediaWiki implements, and implementations are subject to change. Read Lessig; ]. This is known as "west coast law" ;) I suppose "little sister" would work, but would she be much fun? Cheers, ] 04:03, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::::Diane is actually my middle name and I added the extra letters as I had no idea at the time I started whether there was another active user with this name. Thanks for removing the stray code; Slightsmile has corrected the other copy of his little gallery.--] <sup>(])</sup> 04:47, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::::: You're welcome; I saw that fix made; {{diff|User:Slightsmile|414568074|414562517|made moar}}, too. My sister's name is 'Diana' and she will not allow 'Diane' (although 'Di' is acceptable). Whatever you do, don't append 'public'. I'll have ] {{tl|minnow}} it if you do ;) Cheers, ] 05:04, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== one change (links to turtle video, that you turned into references) ==

The turtle video is unwatchable by most WP users who tried it. I expect even a higher percentage of readers (who are less tech savvy than WP users). I actually just had one of those templates there before that said "external media" and give the link only (without the WP media). Don't want to send people to references to click links. It's extra work (with no real value...we're still linking, the content is still sat, etc. etc.) and can potentially confuse them (as they have to rememeber the ref number and all or read the text to figure out what to do). I even had an explanatory note in the caption that this was a considered usage. See background here: ] (]) 11:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

: That was ]; inline externs are supposed to be converted to 'references'. The vid plays for me in Firefox without much fuss; Opera, too. Safari, not... and I'm not sure why. These are browser support and config concerns, coupled with the large file size. Not sure what can be done about that... Cheers, ] 12:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

:: Meh. Will leave it. See if I get complaints. Least it helps me pad my ref count. Inching up on 200. ;-) ] (]) 19:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

]

Thank you, Jack and Rexx. What a tiger team, you are! Love the gallery. Lot of info in there, very efficiently shown. Think it helps article compete well versus other painted turtle articles on the net. ] (]) 19:23, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

: You're most welcome ;) ] 22:12, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
{{-}}

== ] ==

I improved the harvard citations and anchors in this article. Thanks for pointing it out.

You're probably perfectly aware of this, but just in case, I should note that we should always be cautious when "gnoming" an article. Some editors can get furious about this kind of edit. (Have a look at this argument at ] between Ling.Nut (under a new name) and myself.) If they argue, we have to respect their wishes. This especially true of featured articles; there was really nothing wrong with this article, and our argument that it should be improved is very weak. So normally I would have left ] alone.

A better place to implement these kind of changes is in articles that have a lot of broken citations already. We can improve the citation format while simultaneously fixing all the broken citations. These are surprisingly easy to find.

Anyway, forgive me for telling you things you probably already know. I appreciate your help and enjoyed working with you. ---- ] (]) 18:52, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

: ''Terima kasih.'' I'm aware of those who prefer the old sk00l approaches. They might as well be trying to turn back the tide, though, as the merits of such improvements are apparent to those who see clearly. I find articles with messy references everywhere I look, so I routinely kick things in the right direction. Glad to have met you; cheers, ] 19:46, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

== CITE ==

I'm just checking that you realize the material you reverted is already in the guideline. <font color="black">]</font> <small><sup><font color="gold">]</font><font color="lime">]</font></sup></small> 00:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

: ya; why the repetition and boldness during the discussion? ] 00:46, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

::I don't know what you mean. That material has been in the policy for years. Someone suggested pulling it together in one section, so I did. But it's still there, whether in one section or not. <font color="black">]</font> <small><sup><font color="gold">]</font><font color="lime">]</font></sup></small> 00:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

::: Quit calling that a policy; it's a disputed guideline that's bound by ]. I just replied to your other thread. ] 01:00, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

== Copyright question ==

I have noticed that would greatly improve the current article. Any idea on whether it is public domain? {{tl|PD-ID}} seems to indicate that it is, but that is for the national government. Thanks, and thanks for your support. ] (]) 03:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

: I saw your question go unanswered. {{tl|PD-IDGov}} might apply; do you know what page on http://slemankab.go.id/ is hosting that map? What's it say? ] would be the best place to host this if it's deemed PD; I'd check, there, first. I see you've got your ] in order; me, ]; years in Bali, for example. Oh, whatever.go.id all falls under {{tl|PD-IDGov}}, it's just a question of consensus on it applying to a map they publish and what they say about its copyright status. I'm methodically transferring the locator maps and lambang off id:wp to Commons and then deploying them to all wp's with articles. I've noted that this has prompted a bunch of article expansion on various wikis, including your efforts. And really, don't let the concerns concern you; go ask ] to help you. Cheers, ] 03:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

::Thank you, I will try the commons. The map was originally found at . I just wanted to be sure because copyright is generally taken as an exception to ] (i.e. if it's copyrighted and not under fair-use, it's gone.) Thank you. ] (]) 04:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

::: The image isn't loading on that page; it gives me: http://www.slemankab.go.id/profil-kabupaten-sleman/wp-content/uploads/peta-sleman.png (as a 404). Anyway, that page does say copyright by the Kabupaten, so forget Commons. You might make a fair-user claim, here, but that's iffy. Really, . You needs sources more than that low-res map. Cheers, ] 04:26, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

::::It does? Uh oh, I must have missed that. I will double check, and then delete the file if it does... and ''maybe'' reupload it to the English wikipedia. Thanks for the heads up. ] (]) 06:13, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
::::Okay, I found it (eventually) but it seems to be saying that the site design itself is copyrighted. I will bring this subject up in the help section of the commons. ] (]) 06:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
::::BTW, Blofeld's page says he's retired as of 5 February, 2011. Darn. ] (]) 06:38, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
::::: I've written, him. "Darn" is putting it lightly; he's one of the most prolific editors the project has ever seen. I stopped watching Jimmy's talk page a while; it's a bigger zoo than ANI.<sup>]</sup> ] 07:35, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::It is a shame. At least I've got enough citations there to (hopefully) keep the nitpickers away. ] 13:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

== Hotel stubs ==
]
Hello Jack - yes there have been some big changes with the stubs for hotels. The main concern is the thrust of the articles - in some cases the articles are clearly about hotel companies, in others, they're clearly primarily about the buildings the hotels are housed in. As such, it does make sense to have both company stubs and structure stubs, and I personally don't see anything wrong with using both templates on one article if it's warranted. The main problem, of course, is getting the balance right both for the inddividuaal articles and for their usefulneess as stub types. It looks like this still needs some fine-tuning, and I'd suggest the best thing to do would be to work directly with Dawynn on itv - I've only really been peripheral to the discussions. I'm not sure what help I can be overall apart from those suggestions/comments. ]...''<small><font color="#008822">]</font></small>'' 21:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC) (PS - impressively formatted user page and talk page!)

: Hi; I just {{diff|User talk:Dawynn|412790648|412785308|replied}} on his talk. In most cases, the 'structure' is a cookie-cutter cement box. The nice resorts I mentioned, are occasionally works of art, as at right. But I think the focus on the 'structure' is usually unwarranted. Cheers, ] 21:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

== I could tell you a funny story ==

from you INEL picture. Has to do with antelope, nuclear debris, and my dumbfuckedness. All the best stories do. This one is even mostly true.] (]) 00:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

: You would have to tell ], too; ] is a nod to his user page, which is {{diff|User:Coren|333342395|332576031|based}} on {{oldid|User:Jack Merridew|314049860|one}} of my prior ones. Cheers, ] 04:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

== Date format changes ==

Hello,

Please note, that your recent {{diff|International reactions to the 2011 Egyptian protests|413455535|413440224|edit}} formatted the reference dates (the ones in <code>accessdate</code> and <code>date</code> reference template parameters) in a way that is '''against''' wikipedia guidelines wrt date format.

Quoting the guideline:
: In general, the following formats are acceptable:

:* '''Month before day:''' ''February 14'' and ''February 14, 1990'' (comma required)
:* '''Day before month:''' ''14 February'' and ''14 February 1990'' (no comma)
: Date formatting in an article is governed by the following three guidelines.

Can you undo the problematic part of your edit?

Thanks! ] (]) 23:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

: Hi. You mean the ISO date format, like ] uses. I see that as pretty standard stuff. As to the format of the dates in the body of the article I changed them to DMY as seems appropriate for that article. Cheers, ] 05:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:: The fact that you see that as standard stuff, or that some tool uses that format, does not mean that it is appropriate for wikipedia. There are countries, namely Sweden, that do not always use the ISO format (IIRC, they use YYYY-DD-MM in schools). Also, see ]. I undid the edit.] (]) 15:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

::: {{diff|Wayland (display server protocol)|413380642|413348081|edit-war}}, {{diff|Wayland (display server protocol)|413694965|413681930|much}}? nb: I prefer vertical-form referencing, but believe they belong in the ref-section, not inline; see ]. Also, "]" is ]; ], in this case. Much moar authoritative then the ]ERs of ]. There are ijiot countries that don't' use metric, either. ] 17:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

== ], ], ], ]... ==

* ]

Hi, Jack Merridew. I've removed the following ] reference:

* {{cite book|title=Human Trophy Collecting: American Mutilation of Japanese War Dead, Headhunting, Scalping, Mimizuka, Skull Cup, Anthropodermic Bibliopegy|url=http://www.amazon.com/s?search-alias=stripbooks&field-isbn=9781155206899|accessdate=24 January 2011|date=2010-05|publisher= ]|isbn=9781155206899}}

See: ] and ]. °°] (]) 04:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

: Fine by me; As I recall I saw that link somewhere Dream Focus was {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Human trophy collecting|prev|409567012|posting it}}; shoulda, coulda known. Cheers, ] 05:51, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

== as cited by - sfn question ==

Hey Jack. I tried using the sfn for Mann inside a ref tag, for "as cited by" but it did not seem to work. Went ahead and just wrote out Mann and page number manually, but wonder if there is some way to make the sfn work in that situation. See here: ] ] (]) 18:49, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

: Ya, I know about that; I asked about it at ]; or mebbe ] can sort that; some sort of icky <code><nowiki>{{#tag:ref|...}}</nowiki></code>. Mebbe ], or ] knows teh trick ;) Cheers, ] 19:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

:: Sorry, I've been slacking. It needed the anchor that <tt>ref=harv</tt> generates – in this case <tt>#CITEREFMann2007</tt>, so you write: "<tt>as cited in <nowiki>]</nowiki> p 18.</tt>" ++ Thanks for the tweaks @ FL-Demo, Jack. Cheers --] (]) 03:33, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::: Actually, it looks like you've been busy. That route had not occurred to me; I see you've done one, and see a few more for Mann. The ones I was referring to are the "cited in Gervais, Jennifer;" ones, with whole dupes of the {{tl|cite book}}. Cheers, ] 03:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

:::: I reckon "<tt>cited in <nowiki>]</nowiki>;</tt>" will work. Get TCO to do it, so he starts learning to fish. Best --] (]) 03:58, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::::: I expect so; TCO does seem to have picked-up tricks; it's the most effective way to learn, of course,if that what an editors is intent on. Cheers, ] 04:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== Egypt ==

Hello, I have seen your edits to {{tl|Presidents of Egypt}} and I happen to agree. But another does not and he is violently bent on having his way, not only here but also on ]. Maybe you want to chime in. ] (]) 12:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

: I've restored the most reasonable version of the template, which was yours built on top of the fixes I did. I've also left whomever a message on his talk page. I didn't look at the timestamps but he's likely in violation of 3RR. My concern is mostly about the proper structure, the line-wrapping, &c. I've not looked at that article; not sure if I've edited it at all, but will have a looksee. Cheers, ] 18:29, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

: I've made a {{diff|Template:Presidents of Egypt|413921622|413915977|compromise edit}} on the template. Hopefully this will get us by the problem of the nowrapping fixes being removed. You and ] both got blocks for the edit warring on the list-of article. When you both are back, take that dispute to talk. I see there's another editor involved, so mebbe they will offer further comments, too. ] 20:32, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

== Who is the badass of finding sources? ==

Normally, I'm sorta decent on finding old science papers. Tracked down a bunch of original 1700-1800s papers for C. picta. But I seem to have lost my Google-fu. Need the original (naming) papers for the insects in Myrrha. Source 71 has a bunch of species and years and names, but I am coming up short. So, who's the professional to help me?] (]) 18:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
: re turtles? not so sure. You might try ], although he's more into plants. He could point you in the right direction, I expect. Cheers, ] 18:19, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
::Insects actually. I will go bug him.] (]) 18:25, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
:::Okay, just realised I gotta run and deal with RL...will take a look in a few hours. ] (] '''·''' ]) 20:21, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
::::Thanks. It's not about citations per se but about finding why they called the animals after the girl, confirming the link, maybe a cool insight and quote.] (]) 20:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

== ] ==

Considering the reasons I gave for prodding this article, did you have a rationale for unprodding it? Thanks ] (]) 07:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

: I was thinking an AfD more appropriate; I'll abide ;) Cheers, ] 09:36, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

== 3RR ==

Your userspace is the inside of an English major's mind. Whoa.

Anyway, I'm going to mediate the {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring|414446391|414443739|3RR}} report. I don't like blocking people. Make sure you don't revert any more, please. Thanks, ] 15:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

: I see there's been more shite there, and some reasonable talk on the article talk page. As Sundostund's blocked, do you want to have a cuppa tea with he and I on his talk? Or we could just get a few days of consensus on the article talk before he gets back to it? <irony>Care to comment on your choice of user name vs my ]?</irony> nb: the user page is dynamic with multiple change-cycles; look, again. Cheers, ], ''sockpuppet,'' 20:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

::Now that we're back to regular discussion (sort of), I'd like to thank you for fixing my poorly-coded page. Most of that was put up three or so years ago, so it's likely in shambles. ] 21:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::: You're most welcome. I do a fair amount of that sort of thing for other users. I saw the old dates on things, and that a lot of it was rather fallow. The issue with the top-heading sticking-off to the right intrigued me, so I looked under the hood. nb: I wasn't an English major, but I've read a lot. Cheers, ] 21:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== ] ==

Jack, I've had the block screen open twice for you over this page, and I've decided not to mash the button both times; you didn't break 3RR, but you didn't really help the situation either. Please keep in mind that you're not entitled to make three reverts, you can still be edit warring short of breaching the 3RR. ] 18:13, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

: Good calls. I've no idea {{diff|User talk:Mewulwe|414473864|414470812|who this is}}, dipping an oar in. The slap-fight at least got Sundostund talking, albeit on tangents. I take it you saw the full history of that page over the last week or so. Anyway, warning noted; cheers, ] 20:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

::If I had any idea, I'd be filing an SPI, because the situation quacks. I saw Sundostund has been engaging in serial edit warring lately, despite a very recent block for a very similar incident. Hopefully the message will get through this time. ] 20:34, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

::: I'd noticed the pattern on other pages. I've just been looking at ] (it's the next report down on AN3). Same current event, in Egypt. Cheers, ] 20:41, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

:::: I've done my best to bring the article into line with as much of MOS as I can for the moment. The main table would need a considerable restructuring to make it sortable (or even fully accessible). I'm open to suggestions or criticisms at the talk page. Cheers --] (]) 23:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

::::: So I see; looks fine, to me, of course. Much of what I was after and moar. I did look at the other such lists mentioned on the article talk and they're mostly the same sort of mess (or different sorts of mess). Far too many copies of old ways of doing things floating about in less edited articles. You know I regularly fix hard-coded html tables in some of the smaller projects? ], mostly for the link-text itself ;) Cheers, ] 03:03, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::: That's impressed me. But the size of the task is huge: we need more hearts & minds to cascade best practice. "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he idles all day in a boat." Maybe I got the last bit wrong, but you know what I mean. --] (]) 03:47, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::::* ]
::::::: If we ever do a ]:wp, the subdomain will be
:::::::* ] ;)
::::::: and there's always the ]wp ;)
::::::: I tell you, bans are an opportunity; a chance to go ] and meet the serious people. I've got about 15k edits on non-en:wp projects. Many smaller projects took copies of things from en:wp or one of the other ]s some years back. Small projects have a huge load to carry because they're looking to build large projects with a smaller userbase. But that's changing, ''fast.'' Look at all the projects with more than a 100k articles; ], for example; ], too (very clueful IPs doing things quickly, there). And en:wp has yet to realize that the native language of a huge number of Indians is *English*. This is their project, too. Cheers, ] 04:23, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== ] Question ==
Perhaps you can help with this as I have gotten zero response from X!. I use the WP:BN/R template on my talkpage with the |left code in place to push it to the left of the screen. This has worked just fine until I just archived my talkpage last time around. When I don't have the code hidden, it is now right and the |left code isn't working. I have looked at the WP:BN/R template (no changes then or now). I looked at User:X!/RfX Report, no changes other than an update from the bot. So I am unsure what would have caused the problem and why it would have happened only when I archived my talkpage.

Would you take a look at the pages and see if something or someone goofed the code that is not allowing |left to work on the code? Thanks. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 03:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)</small>

: I dunno if it ever supported an unnamed |left; it doesn't, now, but it allows {{diff|User talk:Neutralhomer|414557488|414555639|a passed css style}}, and that can float ya left. Cheers, ] 03:25, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
::It worked for awhile and then just up and stopped. But what you just did works perfectly. :) Thanks! :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 03:28, 18 February 2011 (UTC)</small>

::: The code got changed; prolly dinged a few other instantiations, too. Of course, it works ;) Cheers, ] 03:33, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== My page ==

Thanks for that. ]] 05:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

: You're welcome ;) Pleased to meet you, ] 05:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::I've always wondered how my page looked on other browsers and screens. On mine, up to a few days ago everything was perfect. The badge lined perfectly left of the blue "Midnight Sun" with no conflict. The gallery, while not as good as now, centered nicely between the badge-links-userboxes and the barnstars. Everything nice and tight. And then some kind of change on the site's servers threw every off. ]] 06:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

::: download and install them; the best browsers are free. MediaWiki itself was updated this week; people change templates without understanding the impact. Trick is to know what code is correct, not to determine efficacy empirically. Another thing that throws layout into the gutter is the range of sizes things can be viewed at; what works for a netbook doesn't work on an iMac, and vice versa. Cheers, ] 06:41, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

== Hello ==
Thanks Jack for looking out for me. Ever ridden in a ]?♦ ] 22:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
: Welcome home. I rode cidomos every trip to Lombok. I expect I created the first redlink to it in one of the Gili articles. Ya have to sit pretty tight with whomever you're with. Cheers, ] 22:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Awesome work Jack. Thanks! I will try to start the remaining ones soon, Satusaro permitting of course..♦ ] 12:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

: I'll keep plugging away. I finished ] and have ] up next. Cheers, ] 18:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm working my way down the list of regencies as I see them. Eventually I want to start all of kecamatan too. Perhaps you could code something to copy the infoboxes from Indonesia wikipedia listing them. SO long as they can be verified. Of course we don't want any xxx stubs as bad as Indonesian wiki (Satusaro wouldn't exactly be happy about that anyway, especially if I started sub stubbing desa (evil grin LOL) ) but they can be started if there is google book info on them. First port of call is to start the remaining regencies and improve as many of them as possible though.♦ ] 20:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

: Plastikspork might be one to talk to about such a tool, although the id:templates are a mess, as is id:wp these days. We lost ]. I think the reasonable approach is to work down the hierarchy of things, ya, all the way to ]//] at some point. I'm doing a lot on other projects to push this all along. This stuff is all covered in more detail on 'smaller' projects such as ] and ]. Even ] is doing better than en:wp.
: You know the concept of a 'banjar'? No, not the ] or the places ]; a banjar is the effective/traditional local community authority. They really call the shots on the ground.
: I'm thinking I need to take a crash course in ] at the library when I get back home. Cheers, ] 21:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

== Thanks ==

]
Thanks for tricking out ]'s userpage. --] <sup>(])</sup> 05:30, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
: Write something funny there, and I'll expanded it; see Hamlet's, for example. Those for ] n00bz? Check <em class="plainlinks"></em> out. Or {{diff|vi:Solok (huyện)|3949315|3796984|this}}&nbsp;— WMF is big, and Jack gets around. That was about a minute ago. Cheers, ] 05:39, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

== Another Coding Question ==
] raised a good question. My ] on my userpage seems to go southward in FF 3.6 and IE, but not FF 3.5 and earlier (which I use). As you can see from ], Kenatipo uses FF 3.6. I had known this was a problem for IE, but not later versions of FF. I don't use FF 3.6 causes it messes with Personas and themes, so I have never tested out the userpage, but since you are the coding wizard (that's your title now) could you take a look at your leisure? Thanks...<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 05:21, 19 February 2011 (UTC)</small>
:Sorry, I put that in the middle of another post. Ever since WMF released 1.17 weird stuff like that has been happening. I think it is the "bugs" still in the program. Again, my apologizes. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 05:50, 19 February 2011 (UTC)</small>
::Poor man's talkback: ]. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 08:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)</small>

; Hi Jack! (Neutralhomer's user pages)

Hello, Jack. There's still a problem on Neutralhomers page: when I go to edit his talk page, the standard left column with the wikiglobe and links underneath has shifted to the right and now overlaps the edit space itself, making some of the icons (like sign.) inaccessible. Also, it seemed to put my edit in the section below the one I was actually editing. Thanks. --] <sup>]</sup> 15:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

: I've no idea what happened, after I left. unwatched. ] 18:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

== Database error ==

<poem>
Jump to: navigation, search
A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was:

(SQL query hidden)

from within function "Block::purgeExpired". Database returned error "1213: Deadlock found when trying to get lock; try restarting transaction (10.0.6.42)".
</poem>
- while logged in as ] in Camino. Cheers, ] 05:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

: nb: I'm currently running five browsers, all logged-in to different accounts. Cheers, ] (]) 05:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
: - - - - - - - - - - > Jack meant to write 'different ''legal'' accounts' ^^^^^^ :o --] (]) 19:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
:::: - - - - - - - - - - - - > I was really showing the restrictions to be not be in effect; un-auto-blocked, now, as ''collateral damage'' ;) ] 21:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
:: ] made it six of each ;) ] 06:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Why are you doing this? --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 06:58, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

: I don't really think I'm ''causing'' this error, I just hit it. The other stuff is about my simple request at rfar to simply lift the old restrictions. Cheers, ] 07:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

* ''terima kasih''... someone ;) ] 19:46, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

== FYI ==

I have just left a note at Blofled's talk (seeing he never gets my user name right) - at the moment I have absolutely nothing to do with regular Indonesian project issues - I have real life issues and other priorities at the moment - so take note it will be someone else (if they bother) if you and he get something wrong in the Indonesian area - at least you have the courtesy not to pursue such pointless swipes at me on line (thanks) - and I will assure you that I would do the same for you (not pursue unnecessary comments) - I dont agree with quite a few of your ideas about the Indonesian project either online or offline - but hey - happy editing - I am not the slightest interested what you both get up to - but I am sure you will be watched by others with some interest - cheers - ]] 02:12, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

: Hi. I've not looked at whatever the note is, yet. Best wishes re the real life issues you're referring to.
: I've been doing a lot to get things like Indonesian regencies better covered. Prolly about a 1000 edits in the last two months getting locator maps off id:wp and onto Commons, and from there onto various other projects, including this one. See my edits on ], ], ], ], and ] in this time period.
: I see a massive imbalance in coverage of topics on this project. Huge fancruft articles about fictional tv characters, while countless regencies with on the order of a quarter million people apiece living in them get no articles at all. I told you once that I'm a structuralist; I mean that I believe we should be getting a framework in place to build a proper suite of articles in this topic area.

: Sincerely, ] 02:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Indeed Jack. Satusuro I don't know what your problem is but nobody is taking swipes at you. Just based on a lot of experience in the past you've always heavily frowned upon any Indonesian stubs and even tried to delete valid stubs on Bali/Papuan villages or whatever so I didn't exactly expect any support from you.. And Kecamatan and even Desa can certainly be notable if sources can be found to write them. But that's what matters is sourcing and some factual content... First of all we'll start the remaining regencies and improve some of them... ♦ ] 17:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

: Mellow. I agree that the regencies are a needful thing, and have a lot in place. First, however, I'm at ], again, so I'm marinating on that. Cheers, ] 21:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

::Indeed
''frowned upon any Indonesian stubs and even tried to delete valid stubs on Bali/Papuan villages''- crap, misrepresentation again -
try watching http://en.wikipedia.org/User:AlexNewArtBot/IndonesiaSearchResult on a daily basis and try following up on the
issues that arise project maintenance wise for a while... no one seems the slightest interested in the crap that gets in.

Also neither of you guys seem to be Indonesian speakers - the need for a speaker to follow possible gaffes is not my call either,
if you want a giggle or two try watching this guys misuse of the English language

I have tried explaining at Blofeld talk page - I am out of interacting on any current regency stub floods - I cannot be bothered at the moment dealing with the Indonesian project maintenance (which does not preclude coming in much later in time and cleaning up the mess) and the non responsive non english eds anymore - in the end the soccer crap got to me - simple as that - have fun at ARA jack - ]] 00:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Jack can you upload the maps for Central Kalimantan like ]. I spotted somebody has been starting them.♦ ] 15:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

: I did that one, and ], too ;) The CommonsHelper bots seem to be having a bad day, today, so be patient. Cheers, ] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

And some say Misplaced Pages is "nearly complete". ], 2100 square kilometres, nearly a million people and 248 villages and a main town, completely ignored by English Misplaced Pages, not to mention the fact a natural disaster which affected tens of thousands went undocumented, at least in this region.. Its taken 10 years to get this started....♦ ] 16:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

: (note to peanut gallery: this is referring to the recent eruption of ], which is not mentioned at that redirect target :/.)
::; See also: &nbsp;—One of *my* older edits, and ], please.
: Romi hasn't done locator maps for any of ] province, yet... ] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Over the next week or so can you help add infoboxes to the regencies of Java. I think only East Java has infoboxes. West Java does but the pushpin map needs removing and the regency locator added into the infobox. Also noticed quite a few dead links in the infoboxes for deleted coat of arms etc which need cleanup..♦ ] 22:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

: I'll give it a try. I believe we've only smaller locator maps for Java... and ] (COA-ish) have been deleted? They're all {{tl|PD-IDGov}}. There are a lot of those on Commons; I transferred them while en:banned and they prolly never got hooked-up, here. Cheers, ] (and terima kasih) 23:08, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Once the regencies are all started I'll create the remaining capitals of the regencies placing them all in ], kind of like ]..♦ ] 23:16, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

::Garrn you give peanuts a bad name - I remember satay kambing from Yogya from a ''very long time ago'' and the peanut sauce is what made it brilliant! ]] 09:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

::: Sorry, none for me ;0 ] 09:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

== Script-assisted cleanup ==
It looks as if one of your {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Snottywong|415386580|415386451|Script-assisted cleanups}} messed up some of the formatting in the oppositions of ]. See after the 2nd opposition. Can you figure out a way to fix or remove that? Thanks, <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
: {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Snottywong|415389428|415389280|fixed}}. Thanks for the catch. Cheers, ] 21:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
:: Thanks Jack! <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 21:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
::: No problem. I've not seen that issue, before, and will poke to get it fixed ;) Cheers, ] 21:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

== Assistance Needed ==
Hey Jack, hope all is well. I made ] for ] and it seems something in the 1.17 coding has thrown this off. The space between the two rows was more "together" and the rows themselves were by the gray line. I am wondering if you can regain that "together" space and put them back by the gray line. I would appreciated it. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 00:03, 24 February 2011 (UTC)</small>

: I've {{diff|User:Wehwalt/TopMenu|415603512|415601214|closed up the spacing}}. You seem to get the top: and right: stuff, so I'll leave tweaking the location to you. It's got the same origin issue that your page had; all pages have that problem since vector. The border: -3 won't work (assuming you meant to move things); negative margins, however, are a powerful technique. My old user page did this; see ] for one that still uses that. Cheers, ] 00:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
::I used the same coding for that menu as I did on mine. :) I think the 1.17 coding on Misplaced Pages broke that code I had been using. I will do some spacing and get it back to where it was. Thanks! :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 00:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)</small>
:::One more question: Is it possible to get a 10px space between the globe/mop and the stars? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;">] • ] • 00:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)</small>

Latest revision as of 20:34, 6 January 2023

This user's current account is;

Soft redirect to:User:Br'er Rabbit
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MfD nomination of User:Jack Merridew/Blood and Roses

User:Jack Merridew/Blood and Roses, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Jack Merridew/Blood and Roses (2nd nomination) and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of User:Jack Merridew/Blood and Roses during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 23:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Jack Merridew/Unencyclopaedic

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MfD nomination of User:Jack Merridew/Body text

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MfD nomination of User:Jack Merridew/Quote switch

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MfD nomination of User:Jack Merridew/Quotes

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Blenheim Palace overhead1

Template:Blenheim Palace overhead1 has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 18:50, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Mobile payments in Indonesia

Notice

The article Mobile payments in Indonesia has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This isn't even about mobile payments in Indonesia, it's about a particular vendor of credit for mobile phones and the services they offer. Said vendor fails corporate notability guidelines due to insufficient depth of coverage in independent, reliable sources. Its products fail the product notability guidelines and the general notability guideline on the same basis.

While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. SITH (talk) 11:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Did you know for how long the editor is banned, sadly? - Lovely edit notice, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:55, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Awesome
Ten years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:30, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

"Bigun" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Bigun and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 6 § Bigun until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 20:34, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

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