Revision as of 19:15, 12 March 2007 editSlimVirgin (talk | contribs)172,064 editsm fixed date← Previous edit | Revision as of 00:38, 13 March 2007 edit undoTsunami Butler (talk | contribs)698 edits Is this what you call collegial editing?Next edit → | ||
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{{Template:LaRouche Talk}} | {{Template:LaRouche Talk}} | ||
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==Minority views== | |||
From ], September 2003, on the mailing list: | |||
* If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; | |||
* If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name ''prominent'' adherents; | |||
* If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. | |||
] 10:58, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC) | |||
It would seem that most of Berlet's theories would belong in the third category. --] 20:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
::The condemnation of Lyndon LaRouche and his followers is nearly universal and worldwide in terms of material published in commonly accepted reference texts. The proponents of LaRouche are a tiny group that live in a bubble of admiration. I started out here merely asking that the text be reduced to 50% self-published claims by LaRouchites and 50% material from commonly accepted reference texts (all critical of LaRouche). This apparently is not OK with HK, who insists on inserting material with no independent verification. I think it is clear that HK is not capable of participating in this process in a way that is even remotely connected to the goals of Misplaced Pages. He has already repeatedy violated the strictures placed on him by the Arb. committee. He continues to enagage in personal attacks. He continues to claim that I cook quotes when it has been shown to the satisfaction of anyone but a LaRouche fanatic that the quotes are accurate and my interpretation of them is fair. Why is this being tolerated? | |||
::Will: In an entry on the Holocaust, would you find it acceptable if the Holocaust Deniers were allowed 50% of the text space to post their views? Would it be OK to allow them to constantly rewrite the text so that their claims ended every section, thus giving those views more weight? I think not. | |||
::Let's get back to editing. Let's be fair to the LaRouchites, but let's be editors of a serious encylopedia. | |||
::In the meantime--once again--I ask that HK and Weed and the other pro-LaRouche editors stop editing other LaRouche-related pages and just work on this page. I am willing to just work on this page. What's the problem with that? Let's finish the work on the text on AIDS and Gay people. Here is a proposed format | |||
:::Majority view from material published in commonly accepted reference texts. | |||
:::Quote from critic. | |||
:::Quote from LaRouchites. | |||
:::Summary | |||
::Then we move on to another section, until the article is edited. --] 12:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Slim: I don't know how to create a Temp page, can you create one for me to edit and tell me how to do it?--] 13:39, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::You can have a Temp page here or in your own user space. If the former, go to the search box on the left hand side. Type in (you can choose the words after the slash) ] and press "go". A page will come up with a link saying that page doesn't exist - click here to create it (or words to that effect). Simply click on that link, and start writing on the blank page. Alternatively (and this is what most people do for personal drafts), create a page in your own user space by typing ], click on go, same procedure. Again, you can choose the words after the slash. Hope that helps. ] 23:20, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::I agree with Cberlet's proposed format above. Please let's concentrate on one page at a time. As this one is protected, we must edit this one, or ask for unprotection, because we're currently abusing the protection process. We should aim to make this article the sort of thing you'd expect to read in the Encyclopedia Britannica, if they had enough space (by which I don't mean it should be so long no one will read it). ] 23:25, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Editing by Sections== | |||
Let's start with this section: | |||
] | |||
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section: | |||
:Republicanism v. Fascism | |||
:Racism or Higher Culture? | |||
:The Brainwashing Incident | |||
:Let's edit them in order | |||
We can do this!--] 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
Chip, it's a good idea. What I'd suggest is to get a structure going first, and a rough estimate of desired length. Suggestion: Intro, Marxist period; Change of views, Conspiracy theories (issues like John Train Salon included here), Allegations of brainwashing, Gays and AIDS, Attitude toward Jews (including here the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry"), Attitude toward women; The LaRouche movement around the world (say something about the Schiller Institute and LYM, methods of recruitment, how many followers, how is movement financed). Then we can have LaRouche rebuttal sections, or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, so long as it doesn't lead to claim, counter-claim, and counter-counter etc. Suggest your own section headings if you want because you're the expert. I was thinking structure would be a good thing to pin down so we can pace ourselves in terms of word length, as we tackle each subject. ] 04:22, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Berlet's theories== | |||
If you think that I am going to accept the replacement of this article with a knock-off of Chip Berlet's web site, you are dreaming. I indicated that I would accept Willmcw's (relatively) neutral re-write of the AIDS section. It is a basis for discussion. A total re-write by Berlet is out of the question. --] 15:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:It's not just the gay/AIDS section that needs attention. Material that should be discussed has been left out: for example, the brainwashing allegations against the movement; the period when LaRouche thought the CIA had brainwashed the membership; his belief that people want to assassinate him; how the membership is recruited; how it finances itself. You've prevented these issues from being examined in ], ], and the ], so they can only go here or in ]. ] 17:05, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC) | |||
I haven't "prevented them from being discussed" anywhere, but I agree that this is the appropriate location for such a discussion, except for how the movement finances itself, which is already discussed in ]. If you want to add more material there, I have no objection, provided that it comes from a reputable source. Meanwhile, I propose that we agree to use Will's AIDS section, and unprotect. --] 01:35, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:This http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche/Temp&oldid=9385104 was the version that Will wrote and I wrote suggestions on. Will, Cberlet and I then reached an agreement, which was we'd have what Will wanted of the AIDS quote, and what I wanted of the apparent LaRouche change-of-heart. Then you objected. If we're going to use any of the gay drafts as a basis, it should be this one; though I believe Cberlet may have in mind writing another. ] 01:50, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Stop Complaining and start discussing this draft== | |||
] | |||
I propose we post it and move on to editing other sections. --] 02:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I'm fine with that version. ] 02:42, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Slim: Let's go with it. As for the major re-edit, I agree we need a structure, but let's not worry about length at first. If we can agree on content that is too long, it will be easier to reduce the length later. Do you have a suggested outline?--] 04:07, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
I was thinking of this (feel free to change the names of the headers: I mean them here only as areas): | |||
*Biographical intro | |||
*Early life | |||
*Marxist period | |||
*Change of views (when, why, in what form, personal reasons for change) | |||
*The brainwashing incident | |||
*Conspiracy theories | |||
*Allegations of brainwashing of recruits | |||
*Gays and AIDS (agreed) | |||
*Attitude toward Jews (the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry", allegations of Holocaust denial), | |||
*Attitude toward women (if there's enough to warrant a section) | |||
*The LaRouche movement in the U.S. and around the world (National Causus of Labor Committees; the Schiller Institute; LYM; how many members; methods of recruitment, how is movement financed) | |||
*LaRouche rebuttal sections (or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, though it makes it harder to write) | |||
] 04:21, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Some of this seems to replicate material on the ] page, perhaps some of it can be referenced on that page and the detials moved here?--] 04:43, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Sure, I'll go along with any structure you suggest that gets us moving. If you think some of these issues are best on ], we could leave them there and reference them here, or vice versa. The biographical intro and early life is repetitive and so can mostly refer readers to ], except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to ]. You might think the personal circumstances that surrounded his move away from Marxism should be left on ] too. I'll go along with your preference. (For my own part, I wouldn't have separated these pages in the first place, because the man IS the politics, but I'm not suggesting a merger.) ] 12:22, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Evidence of "Cooked Quotes"== | |||
The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: ]. I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. ] 07:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Weed, could you say which parts you have edited for clarity, please? ] 09:05, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC) | |||
I shortened Herschels "Anatomy of a cut and paste job", leaving out comments that I thought were unnecessary, and I put in the italic and bold formatting. ] 21:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Next Steps== | |||
What about making temporary copies of both pages, and then moving blocks of text around until it looks reasonable, we reduce duplication, and only the most important and salient material is on the Lyndon LaRouche page? Can you make the Temp pages? Last time I made a mess of things.--] 03:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I've made ] and ]. Don't worry about having made a mistake. I just did the exact same thing! :-) ] 06:10, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC) | |||
OK: Here are the first "sandbox" drafts of three pages, and their associated links: | |||
] | |||
:] | |||
::] | |||
] | |||
:] | |||
::] | |||
] | |||
:] | |||
::] | |||
There are still some (((missing paragraphs))).--] 16:23, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
''If you try to replace a Misplaced Pages article with a Chip Berlet article, rest assured it will be reverted.'' --] 18:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Anonymous threats. How endearing. Collect them all...--] 23:45, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
::That IP address is one that the Herschel/Weed Harper account uses. ] 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC) | |||
==A proposal concerning the issue of Chip Berlet and ]== | |||
Chip Berlet AKA ] has been systematically loading both ] and ] with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications. | |||
Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: ''Time'', the ''Washington Times'', ''Washington Post'', or ''New York Times''. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as ''High Times''. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA. | |||
In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Misplaced Pages under the ] guidelines. --] 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:This is not what the NPOV page describes as the standard criteria.--] 18:06, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
What is at issue is not the NPOV policy, but the ] policy. --] 02:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
:If you do your homework, you will see that it is not considered original research for the purposes of Misplaced Pages if it has been published by a reputable and reliable publication or organization, even if I, as the author, post it--as long as I post it in the third person..--] 03:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates are regarded as experts in their field by other professional researchers and journalists. He is allowed to quote himself from his own publications, and that includes reports published by PRA, so long as (a) he quotes himself in the third person; and (b) he does not self-promote in an unnecessary or irrelevant way. Also, cut out the remarks about him being King's Siamese twin. Most intelligent people share these views about LaRouche, not just Berlet and King. ] 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC) | |||
Slim, your POV with regard to LaRouche is no mystery. Chip, it is the reputability and reliability of your organization that is being disputed. If you can find yourself quoted in a mass-circulation publication there will be no dispute. --] 03:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Sandbox == | |||
There is another version of this article, ], that some editors have been working on. I am going to hide the comments and post it here. Substantial material has been moved between the ] bio and that version, in order to make a more logical division between the topics. The sandbox version is a bit rough in places, but I'm sure we can smooth it out. Cheers, -] 01:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Four months later == | |||
This has been the quietest talk page in Misplaced Pages for the last four months. Who'd have guessed that five months ago? When I merged in the VfDed articles I glanced over the article. It is the worst of all the LaRouche articles. No offense to any editor, but there are sections that have little or no apparent meaning. "LaRouche-Riemann Method", "Culture and identity" (what exactly is the point of that anecdote - that some people are more talented than others? How did LL "collaborate" with Brainin and why does it matter?) It is hard to discern, in some places, what the reception has been to his ideas, or which are the most important. | |||
We'd started working on a major revision but we all may have had LaRouche-fatigue after the ArbCom matter was settled. It's time to finish the work, or at least make some more progress. This article is longer than his significance warrants, especially since it is overflow from other articles. There's lots of good information in it. Some parts were the result of contentious editing, but may seem unnecessary in six months later. ] I'm going to start playing in the sandbox again. There are many notes from our previous editing to guide us. An early step will be to re-organize it into the most logical structure. All editors are welcome to contribute productively. Cheers, -] 05:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I agree that it's time to get it sorted. I'll start by doing a copy edit in the sandbox. Feel free to revert anything I do. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:01, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC) | |||
I've just reverted ]'s addition of the LaRouche photograph with Martin Luther King. I did this because LaRouche was never actually photographed with Martin Luther King, and to reproduce this collage would be to publish a piece of LaRouche propaganda. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:40, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Request for clarification == | |||
What the dickens is the "sacralization of politics"? | |||
--Stain | |||
:It's a book. See also, www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/GENSAC.html, the publisher's blurb, and ]. Gentile's thesis is basically that the Italian fascists made politics into a religion. -] 03:23, August 25, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Gentile's thesis is controversial but widely read and has many proponents. The argument is that a key element of totalitarianism is the raising of a political (or other) struggle to a cosmological level so that it attains the form of a "poliical religion." Note that this is different from a "politicized religion," although in neofascist groups such as ] you have an example of both. See: Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, 2004, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement; in which Gentile wrote a lead article and then several commentators (including me) wrote lengthy responses. | |||
== concerning the legal Term "fair comment" == | |||
I was wondering if somebody might be able to explain to me why there were reverts of the following paragraphs: | |||
1: | |||
'''LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment". | |||
''' | |||
To this original paragraph was then the following added: | |||
'''This ruling was in accordance to a U.S. Supream Court ruling that makes it clear that a public figue as a plaintiff must proofe that the opinion statet, even if untrue and harmful, was stated maliciously-with hate, dislike, intent and/or desire to harm the plaintiff. As long as this proposition can not be met the opinion is called "fair comment". That means the court did not qualify the statement of calling LaRouche an anti-Semite but judged if there was proof of mailcious intend etc. on the side of the defendend. The plaintiff in this case was LaRouche. | |||
''' | |||
2: | |||
'''LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment". | |||
''' | |||
To this was then added: | |||
'''Fair comment is a legal term used in defamation cases. It does not reflect the common language use of the words fair comment. | |||
''' | |||
Both changes were reverted without diskussion. | |||
In case number 2 it was reverted with out explanation just the statement of the reverting. | |||
So if somebody could help me with creating a less controversial paragraph that includes the information of the legal term fair comment? | |||
I notified both reverters... | |||
--] 13:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
In the mean time i have changed the paragraph to version nr.2. | |||
--] 16:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Please stop trying to invent a way to explain a court decision when none is needed. --] 17:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::I do know of at least one case where the words fair comment were misinterpretet. This means an explanation is nessesary or the paragraph is missleading. i am certain nobody wants to lead people to false conclusions about the statement "fair comment". Your answer to the argument? | |||
:::--] 17:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::I will revert your changes at 19:00 UTC. But I hope of course that within that timeframe you will give me a constructive answer - so that we can make the paragraph better. I am still looking for your help in doing so. | |||
:::--] 18:33, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::I have reverted to version number 2. I am aware of the short commings of two simple added sentences and ask anybody to cooperate with me on building a more integrated paragraph that includes the facts that Fair comment is a legal term with special implications, so that no one arrives at seemingly logical but false conclusions. This call for help includes cberlet and slimvirgin. | |||
::::Thank you in advance for your help and constructive advice. | |||
::::--] 19:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Zircon, in adding your own understanding of the term "fair comment" and what the judge may have meant by it, you're doing ], which is not allowed. If you want to expand, you'd probably have to quote from the judgment itself, or quote something that one of the lawyers said before or after the case. The point of the no-original-research policy is that any analysis has to come from another reputable published source, and as this is a legal analysis, it would have to be a legal source. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 19:59, August 28, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::Sorry in advance for crossposting. | |||
::::So i wrote on your talk page: | |||
::::I was just using the term as obviously the Washington Post understood it. I am revering to this paragraph in this article: | |||
:::::'''In October 1980, a New York State Supreme Court justice dismissed a defamation suit the NCLC had filed against the Anti-Defamation League and ruled that calling the NCLC anti-Semitic is merely "fair comment" or a matter of opinion.''' | |||
::::Is this original research? | |||
::::I mean if the WP understood that this was a special term and clarified it for its readers should we not do the same? Yes it does not say the judge used the legal term "fair comment" - instead the WP puts it so that it is implicitly seen as a legal term. Please tell me if you can come up with other conclusions. | |||
::::--] 20:50, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'm sorry, I don't follow. I can't see where the W/Post explains the term. Please read ]. You seem to be trying to advance a personal opinion of yours, or build a case, and neither is allowed. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 20:58, August 28, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::I understand your confusion. Please explain therefore to yourself your understanding of the words "'''is merely "fair comment" or a matter of opinion.'''" | |||
::::What exactly does that mean? | |||
::::If "fair comment" would be used in the common way it would qualify the statement anti-semitic. If on the other hand it is "a matter of opinion" can it be at the same time a "fair comment"? | |||
::::I dont think so - what do you think? | |||
::::--] 21:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::I'd say fair comment means a matter of opinion, both in law and in layman's terms. The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite. Anyway, the W/Post article wasn't about the LaRouche case, so to refer to it is building a case (or it would be, if it supported your position, though it seems not to). I encourage you to read ] as that will make things clearer for you. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:30, August 28, 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::So we add "or a matter of opinion" to the words "]"? It seems to be a good compromise for the time being. | |||
::::::About not defamatory calling LaRouche an anti-Semite - this is not the case in Germany - nor following the legal definition of "fair comment" is it okay to do that in America. Just so you know... Ah well ] is so hard to prove... | |||
::::::--] 21:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Just one more comment on this: | |||
:::::Have you tried just googeling "fair comment"? | |||
:::::And do you really believe the N.Y. Supream court would use the words "fair comment" as a judgement without intending to use them in their legal definition? | |||
::::::Do you really believe that? | |||
:::::Sleep over it and we will talk again. | |||
:::::--] 00:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::::Let's not go through another endless round of discussion over pointless issues. The court ruling is a matter of public record. Attempts to craft apologia for the long track recond of LaRouche's antisemitism are POV. This page threats LaRouche fairly.--] 02:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Fascinating answer. Unfortunatly not putting my concerns to rest. So let me ask you too: | |||
::::'''1)''' | |||
:::::Do you believe that the N.Y. Supream Court would use the words "fair comment" as a judgement without intending to use them in their legal definition? | |||
::::'''2)''' | |||
:::::Following your long career as a journalist Mr.Berlet did a court ever use the words "fair comment" without refering to their legal definition? | |||
::::'''3)''' | |||
:::::And would it not be very unlikely that a court would use a such words without explicitly intending to use it as a legal term. Especially since it is the highest court in N.Y.. | |||
::::'''4)''' | |||
:::::Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite."? | |||
:::::Since the court ruling is a matter of pulic record as you put it - it should be easy to find the sentence in that court ruling that does prove that the words "fair comment" were in fact meant as the layman and Slimvirgin understands them. | |||
:::::Thank you in advance Mr. Berlet for your kind help in making this a better paragraph... | |||
:::::--] 10:11, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::::This is pseudo-legal gibberish. The term is well-established in law. This page accurately reports the judge's ruling. We cannot ever establish what was in the judge's mind. There are times whan a claim about a public figure is so outrageous and false that the protection of "fair comment" concerning a criticism of a public figure is transcended. The judge ruled that LaRouche was not able to show the claim of antisemitism was so outrageous and false that "fair comment" was not a protection. Stop this ridiculous nit-picking.--] 15:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Thank you Mr. Berlet for your enlightening answer. Following your paragraph your answers to my questions are: | |||
::::'''1)''' | |||
:::::Do you believe that the N.Y. Supream Court would use the words "fair comment" as a judgement without intending to use them in their legal definition? | |||
:::::Answer: No. ( The term is well-established in law. This page accurately reports the judge's ruling) and no (implicit in your interpretation of the use of "fair comment" in this case) | |||
::::'''3)''' | |||
:::::And would it not be very unlikely that a court would use a such words without explicitly intending to use it as a legal term. Especially since it is the highest court in N.Y.. | |||
:::::Answer: I don´t know. Because the court used an ambiguouse term. (We cannot ever establish what was in the judge's mind.) | |||
:::::Well I do believe we are making progess Mr. Berlet. Refering to question Number 1 I propose that we change the paragraph to reflect our common understanding that this is a legal term. | |||
:::::Refering to question Number 3 I see a direct conflict with your answer to question Number 1. Please clarify your statement so that it cannot conflict with statement Number 1. | |||
::::Unfortunately missing are answers to the questions 2 and 4. | |||
::::so I will ask them again: | |||
::::'''2)''' | |||
:::::Following your long career as a journalist Mr.Berlet did a court ever use the words "fair comment" without refering to their legal definition? | |||
::::'''4)''' | |||
:::::Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite."? | |||
::::::( I could not get a to a clear answer from your interpretation of the use of "fair comment" in the LaRouche case.) | |||
::::Thank you again for your clear answers to the questions I asked you. I really hope that we will soon reach a common ground on which a better paragraph can be established. | |||
::::----] 18:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Just to add my two bits to this ongoing mess: Zirkon asked me on my talk page to help clarify the discussion here of fair comment. I don't know too much about defamation law, so I can't really help with that. But to correct a key misconception: | |||
:::::The Court of Appeals is the highest court in the State of New York; please see the article on ]s. The Supreme Court is the court of original jurisdiction (meaning the trial court) for most cases. The Appellate Division of the Supreme Court is the intermediate appellate court. New York has this weird situation because previously when it was a colony of the United Kingdom, the local town and county courts had jurisdiction over most matters. Then litigants would appeal to the Supreme Court of the colony, and then to the Privy Council in London. The Privy Council still has jurisdiction over colonial matters, although it has been gradually losing power as the Queen's former Dominions continue to create their own Supreme Courts (as New Zealand did recently). So what happened was that when New York declared independence from the Crown, then there was no more Privy Council. Hence, they had to create a new court to appeal to, which ended up being the Court of Appeals. --] 16:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
Thanks, that is very helpful. I forget that most people are not aware of this peculiarity of the New York State judiciary. Unless, of course, if they watch "Law and Order," in which case they see the signage for the trial courts list them as parts of the NY Supreme Court. Here is some text that may help put this issue of the judge's ruling in context: | |||
:" But in 1980, the Supreme Court of New York agreed with the ADL that the publications of LaRouche's U.S. Labor Party could be qualified as anti-Semitic.... Judge Michael Dontzin of the New York Supreme Court ruled that: 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' " justiceforjeremiah.com/larouche_network_canada.html. | |||
So Judge Dontzin essentially ruled that as a public figure plaintiff, LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended.--] 18:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
To explain how this works, I cite here two related aspects of what a public figure in the U.S. has to contend with in order to win a defamation case: | |||
:"Fair comment: this common law defense guarantees the freedom of the press to express statements on matters of public interest, as long as the statements are not made with ill will, spite, or with the intent to harm the plaintiff." www.hfac.uh.edu/comm/media_libel/libel/definition.html | |||
:"Actual Malice is what plaintiffs in the public eye have to prove in order to win a libel case. Actual malice is the act of publishing or broadcasting statements with prior knowledge of the inaccuracy of the statement or a reckless disregard for the truth." www.hfac.uh.edu/comm/media_libel/libel/definition.html | |||
The statement from Judge Dontzin show elements of both, and since we cannot know what was in the judge's mind, we have to rely on just citing the "fair comment," statement, or include the longer quote in the article, which is what I would prefer.--] 18:26, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Thank you Mr. Berlet for posting the missing link in this search for a better and less missleading paragraph. | |||
::I will now cite the quotation of the ruling: | |||
:::'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' | |||
::As you can see there is no indication the judge did not use the term "fair comment" outside of its legal meaning. The legal term "" is defined in wikipedia. On this article there is also a weblink to a legal services Website that is echoing the essentials of the wikipedia article. | |||
::'''Conclusions:''' | |||
:::'''A)''' | |||
::::I presume therefore that we have established beyond doubt the meaning of the legal term "fair comment". Furthermore that we have established that "fair comment" was used with full intention in its legal definition by the judge. | |||
:::'''B)''' | |||
::::Concerning the paragraph in question I therefore suggest changes that reflect these new found insights. Details will soon follow. | |||
:::'''C)''' | |||
::::Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic. | |||
:::'''D)''' | |||
::::Concerning my questions Nr. 2 and Nr. 4 I would still like to know your answers since they could clear up misconceptions that people harbour. | |||
::Thank you again for your very valid help in this mission of making this a less missleading paragraph. | |||
:::--] 19:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::I am really sorry, but I find the style and content of your comments to be incoherent and incomprehensible. I am not interested in playing intellectual chess, I am interested in helping write a factual NPOV article. Therefore I have simply added the comments by the judge. People can follow the link to ] if they so desire.--] 19:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Your article had changed while I was working on mine therefore I will add the following: | |||
::Conclusion C: | |||
:::This is your own definition of "fair comment": "LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended" | |||
:::I repeat: Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic. | |||
::About ]: | |||
:::I dont see any notion of this in the quotation. Following this it was not part of the court ruling. Which is enough to not bring it into the diskussion. Following the definition of "]" there are also logical reasons for not doing so. | |||
:::Your comments Mr. Berlet? | |||
:::--] 19:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Ridiculous waste of time. Pedantic. Pointless. Attempt to rewrite history. You asked for my comments. I have answered honestly.--] 19:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Yes you really are opinionated but willing to talk. | |||
Concerning the paragraph we might still have our differences and mediation might be nessasary, but this is the way things are and - considering your answers - will be. | |||
However sometimes it is nessary to be pedantic, | |||
after all nobody wants to misslead people, | |||
which is the reason why this was and will not be pointless | |||
nor will it be seen as an attempt to rewrite history. | |||
But lets leave this for others to judge... | |||
Willmcw would you like to comment? | |||
SlimVirgin would you like to comment? | |||
--] 20:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I note that ] created a Misplaced Pages page on ] that mischaracterised the actual complicated legal meaning of the term in a way that supports the LaRouchite line on the New York defamation case. The page is now being edited to reflect a more accurate definition and discussion. It would be helpful if ] created a User Page so that we could discuss some of these related matters there, rather than filling up this disucssion page. Also, could ] please stop writing in a form reflective of e. e. cummings poetry? It fills up a lot of space and makes meaning difficult to comprehend. Paragraphs are a more traditional form.--] 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
::(edit conflict: I wrote this before reading Cberlet's comment). I'm not sure what you're getting at, Zirkon. If anyone wants to look up ], they can check out the article, which you helpfully started. Thank you for doing that. If you want to add after "fair comment" in the article something like "which means x, y, and z," you'd have to add a fairly lengthy explanation, and there would be a danger of it becoming ] i.e. collecting known facts to build a case. The case you want to build here is presumably that LaRouche isn't really an anti-Semite, or that the court didn't really say he was. But as Cberlet points out, we can't get into speculating what the judge did or didn't intend to say (except that, as you say, the term "fair comment" would, of course, have been used in the legal sense). If you can find something in the judgment that you feel is a fairer representation of the ruling, by all means add it, but you'd probably have to find a quote from the judge, or a quote from a reputable newspaper interpreting the ruling. But we can't rely on dictionary.com to say what the judge meant in this case. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:01, August 29, 2005 (UTC) | |||
Considering the posting of Mr. Berlet from 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC): I note that your concerns about "fair comment" have not been put to rest. I find that interesting. Therefore I believe I have to ask the following questions: | |||
C: This is your own definition of "fair comment": "LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended" | |||
I repeat: Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic. Do I have to assume you dont want to do point C? | |||
About ]: I dont see any notion of this in the quotation. Following this it was not part of the court ruling. Which is enough to not bring it into the diskussion. Following the definition of "]" there are also logical reasons for not doing so. Would you please answer to this statement following your problems with "fair comment"? | |||
4) Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite." ? Would you like to answer question Nr. 4 now Mr. Berlet? | |||
I understand that reading through the whole thread is difficult for the casual reader i therefore will soon write a summary of the discussion so far. In doing so the questions asked to Mr. Berlet will be easier to put into a meaningfull context. And thank you Mr. Berlet we really did make progress today! ] 23:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:There's no need for a summary, but please take note that your comments are hard to read when spaced out (in more than one sense, perhaps). I've reformatted. If you want people to read them, please write in normal paragraphs. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 23:09, August 29, 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Zirkon: here is what I posted on the ] page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite: | |||
:::I have rewritten the explanation of ] in the U.S. once again to make matters more clear. In most states, the "fair comment" defense requires a factual basis. "The privilege of 'fair comment' for expressions of opinion depends on the truth of the facts upon which the comment is based" according to U.S Supreme Court Justice Brennan who wrote the ruling in Times v. Sullivan. This is based on Alabama law. I do not have the laws of New York state handy, but since you are attempting to write an apologia for on another page based on a New York lawsuit, you would first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis. I do not know if it does or does not. In any case, the judge in the LaRouche case who ruled it was not defamation to call LaRouche anti-Semitic is clearly indicating the defendants introduced sufficient evidence to butress the factual basis of their opinion that LaRouche was an anti-Semite. | |||
::Feel free to dig up published commentaries on the defamation laws of the state of New York, otherwise your original research has no place on this page.--] 13:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Mr. Berlet! After I have seen your last statement I decided to just stay silent for a while to see if there would be corrections or other comments and to hope in doing so to defuse the situation. | |||
:::Unfortunatly you seem to have misinterpreted my silence. I believe you expected that I would argue immediatly against your statements and in not doing so I further believe that you assumed i had lost interest in the matter after the comments you have made... | |||
:::In order to keep a civil discussion I hope you will make certain corrections in your statements.If you dont make those corrections your statements will induce fallacies in to the reader. I am certain that this is not your intention. If you should not make the corrections I will obviously point out the potential fallacies to the reader. And thank you in advance for cooperation in cleaning up this misunderstanding. | |||
--] 18:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::Your complaints are without any merit whatsoever. Please stop trying to rewrite the facts of the laws of defamation to apologize for LaRouche's antisemitism.--] 00:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC) | |||
Administrator SlimVirgin: Following your remarks on my Talk page I realise that there is a certain difficulty on your side in following my intentions. I therefore ask you to state the points you do not understand. I also would like to ask you to explain to me what you do mean with the following words: "...hard to read when spaced out (in more than one sense, perhaps)." I assume we will work through this together? | |||
--] 20:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC) | |||
---- | |||
After Mr. Berlet had enough time to answer I shall proceed with pointing out the problems I have with Mr. Berlets remarks. | |||
Quotes from Mr.Berlet are in quotation marks and itallic. | |||
''“Zirkon: here is what I posted on the fair comment page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite:”'' | |||
::'''1) That is a false statement. Please point out my attempts to rewrite your edits. If you cannot do so please change your words. | |||
::'''2)Please do not try to devine my intentions for other readers in this matter. | |||
::'''Further comments: | |||
::'''This is not the place to talk about guessed intentions in order to place a person in to a certain corner in the dabate. This discussion was about the question if it should be pointed out that “Fair comment” is a legal term. Again this is not a fight about political views or the powers of something versus the powers of something. Trying to create such perspective is corrosive to any seriouse debate. | |||
::'''Such a behaviour is useful for a demagogue to rally his troops for a confrontation. It is impossible not to call such a behaviour disruptive.''' | |||
''“I have rewritten the explanation of fair comment in the U.S. once again to make matters more clear. In most states, the "fair comment" defense requires a factual basis. “'' | |||
::...'''“a factual basis”... Following your edit of the article “Fair comment”. It is a common law defence in court ... “a protection for robust, even outrageous published or spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.” | |||
::'''If you use the words “a factual basis” in conjunction you will come to the following conclusion:''' | |||
::'''“In most states the “fair comment” defense requires a factual basis.” ...”a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.”''' | |||
''"The privilege of 'fair comment' for expressions of opinion depends on the truth of the facts upon which the comment is based" according to U.S Supreme Court Justice Brennan who wrote the ruling in Times v. Sullivan. This is based on Alabama law. I do not have the laws of New York state handy, but since you are attempting to write an apologia for on another page based on a New York lawsuit, you would first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis.”'' | |||
::'''A) | |||
::'''As demonstrated beneath your argument that I would ...”first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis.” is a strawman argument. | |||
::'''It is allways usefull to view a statement from both sides: | |||
:::'''a)So if I am able to show that New York law needs factual evidence I am able to prove that the judge based his judgement on facts upon which “...a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.” can be based. | |||
:::'''b)If I am able to show that NY law does not need factual evidence I am able to show that the judge based his judgement upon heresay/gossip upon he granted “..a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.” | |||
::'''If you read the discussion above you will find that you have gone on a tangent. I still argue that it is nesessary to include a sentence about the fact that “fair comment” is a legal term. I do not know if you intentionaly set out to offer a strawmen argument but rather did not reread the whole discussion. Perhaps I should have gone on and posted a summery against Administrator Slimvirgins wishes...''' | |||
::'''B) | |||
::'''Following the words... “...since you are attempting to write an apologia...” I have to say the following: | |||
::'''Again you are trying to put me into a corner. Please do not attempt to do so. If I want to make my political afiliation clear I will do so. You will not point out my intentions for me as this is not the correct way to debate a topic. I believe in doing so you are displaying disruptive behavior as I am forced to defend myself and not the topic at hand. Making an Ad Hominem argument is not acceptable in this forum. Please delete the relevant words. | |||
''“I do not know if it does or does not. In any case, the judge in the LaRouche case who ruled it was not defamation to call LaRouche anti-Semitic is clearly indicating the defendants introduced sufficient evidence to butress the factual basis of their opinion that LaRouche was an anti-Semite.” | |||
::'''Following this statement I will repeat this: | |||
::'''“In most states the “fair comment” defense requires a factual basis.” ...”a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.” | |||
::'''Now - following the established definition of “Fair Comment” - that does not “qualify” the statement “antisemitic” opposed to what the article (that you found) says: | |||
:::“But in 1980, the Supreme Court of New York agreed with the ADL that the publications of LaRouche's U.S. Labor Party could be qualified as anti-Semitic.... “ | |||
::'''While all of this is strictly of topic, it indicates that the definition of “fair comment” or “qualified” for the ADL are different than the definitions we know. This should be investigated. | |||
:::“Judge Michael Dontzin of the New York Supreme Court ruled that: 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.'” | |||
::'''This points out that the common law defence “fair comment” was acceptable to the Judge. If anything it would be the definition of “Fair Comment” that could be in question here. | |||
::'''Following the citation what happened was that the defendends had the oppinion that expressing “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith...” and connecting these views with “...critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' ” is anti-Semitic. | |||
::'''Since there was evidence presented to the court that there were statements by the plaintivc that were highly critical in the described manner and since the plaintive could not prove that the statements by the defendend were made with “actual malice” the defense of “fair comment” was granted. | |||
::'''So the court ruled about granting the defense “fair comment” not about the question if expressing “critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies in connection with “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith” qualifies you as an anti-semite. | |||
::'''In other words not the interpretation of the facts was disputed but if the facts themselfs were false or not. Interpretation of facts (or expression of fact based oppinions) is a matter of free speech as long as it is a matter or person of public interest. | |||
::'''It is unfortunate that the words “Fair Comment” are so easely missinterpreted. But a simple sentence added to the relevant paragraph will make things clearer for the reader. | |||
''Feel free to dig up published commentaries on the defamation laws of the state of New York, otherwise your original research has no place on this page.--Cberlet 13:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)'' | |||
::'''Following my statements above I shall not do so. | |||
::'''In Summery: | |||
:::'''Mr. Berlet I ask you to do the following things: | |||
::::'''A: Please delete this statement: | |||
::::....“that you keep trying to rewrite”... | |||
::::'''In the given context any reader will believe that somekind of edit war took place. Which was obviously not the case. | |||
::::'''Reputation is the most precious of commoditis in an online community. Please do not put me in to a position where I have to defend myself against statements that are not accurate or are missleading in the extreme to save my reputation. I consider this disruptive to the discussion of the topic at hand. | |||
::::'''B: Please do not try to use ad hominem arguments to lead the dabate astray. This is disruptive behavior. Please stop your attempts to guess my intentions. Please stop using bold statements that define your point of view on the debate. This serfs no purpose in debating the topic but displays demagogic behaviour. Example follows: | |||
::::''“Attempts to craft apologia for the long track recond of LaRouche's antisemitism are POV.” | |||
::::''Cberlet 02:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)'' | |||
'''Concerning the article "Fair Comment":''' | |||
''“I note that Zirkon created a Misplaced Pages page on fair comment that mischaracterised the actual complicated legal meaning of the term in a way that supports the LaRouchite line on the New York defamation case.” Cberlet 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)'' | |||
::'''Following this statement it is nessesary for me to show that my own work (the copyedited version of Willmcw) does in fact echo the understanding of fair comment from the external source and does not mischaracterise it. I will do so in the fair comment forum. | |||
--] 13:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::Wow! I am very sorry, but much of --]'s text appears to me to be pseudo-intellectual gibberish. I apologize for not being able to make sense of it. It still seems to me to be a lot of verbiage that results in the same situation that existed before: fancy footwork by a POV warrior out to defend LaRouche from the obvious and well-documented published claim that LaRouche is an antisemite. We do not need to misrepresent the law of defamation to arrive at that conclusion.--] 13:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hm. I see. Thank you for your timely and interesting reaction Mr. Berlet. I have three questions to you Mr. Berlet: | |||
:::::*Following your statement you will not stop me from adding that “Fair comment” is a legal term? | |||
:::::*Following your statement you will delete the statement: ...”that you are trying to rewrite”... (see summery)? | |||
:::::*Following your statement you will use demagogic tatics to promote your point of view (see summery)? | |||
:::::Thank you for your answers and for helping to make this a better article.--] 13:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::::Forgive me, but I find unctuous faux courtesy from someone challenging me to be annoying, and would prefer it if we just exchanged thoughts in simple language. You have posted trick questions that have no merit in editing an encyclopedia article. It is not a game I play. Please try to learn how to post text here on Misplaced Pages, it makes your text easier to read, takes up less room, and allows for people to follow the flow of ideas in a structured manner. As a courtesy, I have provided a reformat of your text as an example. I hope it is useful.--] 14:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::::Mr Berlet as always I am gratefull if somebody else is doing the hard work of editing the wikipedia artikls for me. You have to understand that I was in a hurry to answer your statement and did not precheck the article in its actual outlook. Considering the idea of trick questions. This is indeed a very interesting question to ask – are the questions I asked after your short statement really trick questions? | |||
::::::What would be the nature of such a trick question? | |||
::::::Would it not be a deceiving question? A question in which you would have to answer in a way that would be reveiling or damning no matter what? | |||
::::::*Question Number 1 is simple and can be answered with a simple yes or no. In doing so you would simply allow me to introduce the fact that “fair comment” is legal term into the paragraph. What would be the potential problem? That is for you to answer. | |||
::::::*Question Number 2 is also simple, but needs the actual reading of my statements (admitedly time constraints could stop you from doing it). Actually answering in the affirmative could lead to future backlashes as one could allways point that you were not accurate in your postings and actually admited it by removing the offending phrase. Answering in the negative could on the other hand lead to an arbitration commitee and to unknown shores. | |||
::::::*Question Number 3 is difficult. As it is a question that goes directly to your stile of answering questions and making statements. When people feel passionate about an issue they tend go on to a metaphorical soap box. However making speeches or bold statements is not what building an encyclopedia is about. So the question could also be: Will you continue making statements that are basicly devisive and destructive to the debate or will you go back to work constructivly on the topic at hand? | |||
:::::::Thank you again for making the editing. And thank you for your constructive work in middle part of this long dabate. (That at least you have to grand me) | |||
:::::::--] 15:25, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
'''Bold text''Sorry to add another layer of complexity to an already complex argument, but... | |||
Both arguments in this case are completely void because they are trying to imply that the court ruled on whether or not LaRouche's views were anti-semitic. They did not do this. The ruling that the court made was on the comment that LaRouche's views were anti-semitic, which they ruled was fair comment. When the British courts ruled on the Marquess of Queensbury's claims that Oscar Wilde was posing as a sodomite they did not have to establish that Wilde was or wasn't a sodomite, but merely that he may have appeared to be one or that such a comment did not damage Wilde's reputation. It is possible to see LaRouche as an anti-semite and it is also possible to see him as merely being highly critical of prominent Jews and Zionism as he is of many things. I'm personally of the view that LaRouche probably is an anti-semite, but the court ruling does nothing to support or detract from this. I hope that clears up a bit of confusion. - moodsformoderns | |||
:Thank you for your input Moodsformoderns. As you can see in the following paragraph I did follow your line of understanding of the legal term "fair comment": | |||
::'''Now - following the established definition of “Fair Comment” - that does not “qualify” the statement “antisemitic” opposed to what the article (that you found) says: | |||
:::“But in 1980, the Supreme Court of New York agreed with the ADL that the publications of LaRouche's U.S. Labor Party could be qualified as anti-Semitic.... “ | |||
::'''While all of this is strictly of topic, it indicates that the definition of “fair comment” or “qualified” for the ADL are different than the definitions we know. This should be investigated. | |||
:::“Judge Michael Dontzin of the New York Supreme Court ruled that: 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.'” | |||
::'''This points out that the common law defence “fair comment” was acceptable to the Judge. If anything it would be the definition of “Fair Comment” that could be in question here. | |||
::'''Following the citation what happened was that the defendends had the oppinion that expressing “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith...” and connecting these views with “...critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' ” is anti-Semitic. | |||
::'''Since there was evidence presented to the court that there were statements by the plaintivc that were highly critical in the described manner and since the plaintive could not prove that the statements by the defendend were made with “actual malice” the defense of “fair comment” was granted. | |||
::'''So the court ruled about granting the defense “fair comment” not about the question if expressing “critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies in connection with “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith” qualifies you as an anti-semite. | |||
::'''In other words not the interpretation of the facts was disputed but if the facts themselfs were false or not. Interpretation of facts (or expression of fact based oppinions) is a matter of free speech as long as it is a matter or person of public interest. | |||
::'''It is unfortunate that the words “Fair Comment” are so easely missinterpreted. But a simple sentence added to the relevant paragraph will make things clearer for the reader. | |||
:And here is the understanding of "fair comment" of Mr.Berlet '''before''' he changed the wikipedia article "fair comment" (how he understands "fair comment" today is not quite clear - see above): | |||
::''"(...) There are times whan a claim about a public figure is so outrageous and false that the protection of "fair comment" concerning a criticism of a public figure is transcended. The judge ruled that LaRouche was not able to show the claim of antisemitism was so outrageous and false that "fair comment" was not a protection. (...) --] 15:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)" | |||
:I hope I could clear things up for you. It should also be noticed that the paragraph is still as Mr. Berlet left him some months ago. I will soon make changes that reflect the legal nature of the words "fair comment". | |||
:--] 19:39, 24 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
==Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy?== | |||
On October 18, Sean Black removed the word "obsessively" from the section called "Women and Feminism," with the memo "Rm POV word." On the same day, Cberlet put it back, with the memo "Restored word expressing opinion of critics." The following day, I went back to the Sean Black version, because his point seemed reasonable to me. I put as a memo "Who are these critics? Cite sources please." Minutes later, Cberlet put "obsessively" back, with the rather flippant memo, "or we could simply reinsert the word obsessively." What's going on here? As I understand it, the use of neutral language, and the citing of sources, are official Misplaced Pages policy. I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy? | |||
--] 01:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Try actually reading the article before making a (false) complaint. I did not reinsert the word "obsessively," I added quoted text with a cite to a published article. --] 02:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::To answer your question, yes he controls this article. A gang of several adminstrators goes around and blocks articles and blocks editors whenever someone tries to stop the views of Chip Berlet or his ] colleague ] from being the sole views represented on LaRouche. The only discussion they are willing to engage in is making threats and snide, rude comments. They don't even read the comments posted by editors who don't belong to their narrow out-of-the-mainstream POV clique. ] 20:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
I see that you have responded to my request for a source by adding yet another quote from Chip Berlet. Aren't you just quoting yourself? It seems like you have an axe to grind. Also, another section of anonymous opinions that I removed with a request for a source was simply re-added by Snowspinner, with no source provided. At the top of this talk page it says: | |||
: "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list: | |||
:If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; | |||
:If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; | |||
:If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. | |||
Again I ask, is the way that this article is being handled consistant with Misplaced Pages policy? --] 15:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
Chip Berlet is, it seems to me, a leading critic of LaRouche, so there is nothing wrong with quoting him as a critic of LaRouche. (Note: I am referring to quoting published works by him, rather than his work on wikipedia ''per se''). ] ] 16:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I agree. Chip Berlet is one of the sources any of us would add to this article, so whether he or someone else adds that material is irrelevant. Editors are allowed to quote and refer to their own published work, so long as it's relevant, notable, published by a credible publisher, and referred to in neutral way. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 17:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I also agree, but that's because Chip Berlet leads the cabal, and the mind control chip he implanted in my brain makes me agree. ] 17:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::It's probably not mind control chips. But when it comes to explaining the conduct of the Dennis King/] crowd, it might be the dope. ] 19:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Which you're not supposed to realize. Now you'll have to be re-programmed. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 00:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
Yes, that's all true but one should take care not to ''privilege'' Chip as an editor. He still has to follow the rules (I'm not saying he hasn't). Chip should take care as well to recognise that he has a clear bias in this area, although I recognise that in this company asking that editors have an awareness of their own biases is going to fall on deaf ears. -- Grace Note. | |||
Snowspinner's joke is funny. But that doesn't excuse him for putting in a quote, in quotation marks, with no source cited. | |||
It seems to me that Lyndon LaRouche is not stingy with his opinions, he will talk to anyone who will listen. There are thousands of articles by him on the internet. But author/editor Chip Berlet says that he knows an anonymous person who says that LaRouche has opinions about the anus and the vagina, yadda yadda yadda, that have never been published, and he puts this in an encyclopedia article. This is not encyclopedia writing, this is tabloid journalism, and there is too much of it in this article, which is why I am putting up the announcement of disputed neutrality. --] 15:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I don't think a NPOV tag is appropriate for this - perhaps factual accuracy, or better yet, unverified. ] 02:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::It is a quote from a published report. That's what matters. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.--] 13:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
As far as I have been able to find out, no such ideas have ever been published by LaRouche, and this is supposed to be an article to inform people about LaRouche's views. I don't think this article is neutral under Misplaced Pages policy. I found that an example of things to be avoided at ] is "Critics say that..." I found seven examples of this in the article, usually with very inflammatory accusations. The readers of this article ought to know who is making these accusations. Also, there is one case where a critic other than Chip Berlet is identified, and that critic is Jean Hardisty. However, when I followed the link to Political Research Associates, I learned that she is a close collaborator with Chip Berlet. So it looks more and more like all the criticism in this article comes from a close knit group. There are other critics of LaRouche, like Michael Rubin and Robert Bartley, who are well known, but their opinions are not included in this article. I searched Google news for Chip Berlet and only got one hit. Again, this does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia article; it should verifiably reflect broad based, main stream opinion, not the special theory of one person or group.--] 15:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Google news isn't the place for news on Chip Berlet. Try articles related to the ] ] subculture. Or far-left extremist outfits like the Communist Party. Or the Misplaced Pages arbitration case brought against him by ]-- a libertarian and no supporter of LaRouche-- for aggressive POV waring. That being said, Chip Berlet is NOT mainstream. In fact, the views of LaRouche-- in the tradition of Franklin, Hamilton, Clay, Lincoln, FDR, MLK, et al, are the kinds of views that resonate much more strongly among most hard-working, moral American families than Berlet's far-left and pro-drug legalization agenda. ] 20:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::If it is OK to cite Michael Rubin writing about LaRouche on the online Frontpage website, it is OK to cite Chip Berlet writing in a published report from Political Research Associates. Do you honestly think that bean-counting hits on Google News is serious research? I am happy to delete what I posted and replace it with the word "obsessive." This is an article about LaRouche, not an ad for for his views. Critical views are appropriate in an encyclopedia. --] 15:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
As the person who initially removed "obsessively", I'd like to say that I'm pleased with that bit as it is now- It's well cited, and clarified as the view of a prominent critic (Berlet). I'm in favor of removing the NPOV tag.--] | ] 22:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:On reflection, you were right to take the word out. Cites are always better than POV-sounding words. :-)--] 22:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
I put the NPOV announcement there because I saw too many anonymous opinions attributed to "critics," which is against Misplaced Pages policy as I understand it. I am in favor of there being criticism in the article, but anonymous criticism makes it look like propaganda. | |||
Here are the opinions that I think should be attributed. I don't see why the authors of the article wouldn't want to simply put the attributions in. Then the article would be fine, and I would be in favor of removing the announcement. | |||
*"Several critics of LaRouche argue that his ideas about economics are not original and are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck; and the corporatism of Italy under Benito Mussolini, Spain under Francisco Franco, and Portugal under Antonio Salazar." | |||
*"As for moving from the left to the right, historically a number of fascists started out as socialists, and critics argue this is the case with LaRouche." | |||
*"According to his critics, LaRouche's personal egotism is a significant force driving his politics." | |||
*"LaRouche's critics claim he is a "disguised anti-Semite," in that he takes the classical anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and substitutes the word "Zionist" for the word "Jew", and ascribes the classical anti-Semite's caricature of the evil, scheming Jew to particular, named, Jews and groups of Jews, rather than to the Jews as a whole." | |||
*"His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset." | |||
**You're conflating criticizing the ADL with anti-Semitism, which is a technique to distort the truth. LaRouche has many Jewish associates and supporters. I am Jewish myself, by the way. LaRouche supports an independent Jewish state. He is a ''supporter'' of Israel and an admirer of true Israeli patriots like Ben Guriorn and Rabin. LaRouche opposes the murderous clique surrounding fascist terrorists, though, like Jabotinsky, Begin, Shamir, and Sharon, whom he considers true enemies of the Jewish people, because they are the ones breeding anti-Semitism by fooling people with their lie that they somehow represent the Jewish and Israeli people. ] 20:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
*"What LaRouche supporters see as praising classic culture, LaRouche critics see as a bias against non-White, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities." | |||
I also have two questions for Chip Berlet regarding the sourcing of quotes attributed to LaRouche. | |||
*The description of the "Chinese culture" quote does not seem to match the quote that it is describing. It seems to me that LaRouche is attacking the Maoists by saying that they reject Western culture as in favor of pre-revolutionary culture. The Misplaced Pages article says that LaRouche is condemning China's pre-revolutionary culture, which seems to be wrong. There is a missing quote mark that further confuses things. | |||
*The quote about the "ghetto mother" is attributed in such a way as it looks like it was published. I went to Chip's web site and looked at it, and it looks like a type written or mimeograph page. The attribution should somehow indicate where it actually came from. And as in the case of your "anus" quote, don't you think Chip that if your theory really is strong, you could find an example to prove it that LaRouche actually published? It seems you are trying to prove your point with gossip. --] 00:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Gossip? Nice cheap shot. And totally false. All of these questions have been answered repeatedly. And the editors here have summarized the published work of a number of LaRouche critics. You need to do some research and homework before raising the questions yet again, when they have been answered repeatedly. For example, the ghetto mothe quote is from a published document issued by the LaRouche group, which you would have known if you had spent a few minutes actually reading the relevant material. And, just in case you are not aware, anonymous questions on LaRouche pages generally do not get a lot of sympathy, because of a history of abuses by LaRouche supporters. --] 02:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::What a farce. Even if the comment were his, it doesn't tell us anything. It's possible to pick anything out of context in order to distort the truth when an author has written so much and given so many lectures as LaRouche. (It's safe to say that every month LaRouche typically writes more content for scientific and economic publications than most Misplaced Pages editors have ever read in their entire lives.) This is a classic technique known to the professional propaganist. ] 20:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
I am not looking for sympathy. I am pointing out what seem to me to be deviations from Misplaced Pages policy, as stated in ] and ]. That's all. --] 15:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
I am wondering why it is taking so long to get a reply to my question about the anonymous opinions. Snowspinner, when I took out the unsourced quote "His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination,"", it only took you 2 minutes to put it back in. Why is it taking you so long to explain why you think this is justified under Misplaced Pages policy? | |||
--] 21:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
== Totally disputed/original research == | |||
I see than an editor has added the "totally dipsuted" and "original research" tags to this article. Can we please have the specific problems with this article which warrant those tags? Please note that published material by Berlet does not count as original research. Which factual matters are in dispute? Thanks, -] 21:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
:I read ] and I found that it says this: ""Original research refers to theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any unpublished interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas ..." It seems to me then that the numerous anonymous opinions that I have pointed out must also be considered original research, because we have no way of establishing that they have been published in a reputable publication. If the authors would provide sources for these opinions there would be no problem. | |||
:PS Cognition please do not put more rebuttals to the anonymous quotes in my list. Those criticisms may be valid or invalid but the main point is that they are anonymous. | |||
:--] 16:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I appreciate the answer, but you are not the editor who added the tags. That editor needs to state his reasons. -] 19:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I've removed the original research tag, as the only thing cited was Berlet's works, and I think everybody agrees that it's not OR.--] | ] 02:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
I'm not so sure. The Original Research page says "Original research refers to theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any unpublished interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas" and some of Chip Berlet's arguments appear on his web site only, like the part where he says that when LaRouche attacks the policy of Maoism he is also attacking ancient China culture. But mainly I think that all the anonymous opinions which cannot be verified must be original research.--] 16:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:This statement is simply false and distorted. Some of my harshest criticism of LaRouche appear in the book I co-wrote, Right-Wing Populism in America. The study I wrote with Bellman was published as a printed report. Summaries of widely-held claims appearing as published comments that LaRouche is a neofascist, cult leader, antisemite, sexist, racist, and lunatic are appropriate. There is a difference between a legitimate summary and an "anonymous" claim. That LaRouiche is a convicted crook is a matter of public record.--] 16:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Exactly. Chip's a pubished author, a prominent critic, and widely regarded as an expert in the field, so therefore it does not qualify as original research.--]|]] 21:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::It would be original research for Chip to add the material himself. I assume he has not done so, thus making the tag patently absurd. ] 22:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::I try not to add my own material to Wiki pages, but do it rarely when there are no readily available sources on an obscure topic; and when someone pops onto a page and claims that a particular claim already posted is either false or not cited and thus should be removed. That's what I have tended to do on the LaRouche pages. Periodically their supporters show up and delete material, claiming it is not cited or that it is false. Several times I have had to post images of pages from LaRouche publications at www.publiceye.org to prove that a particular quote is real and not taken out of context.--] 22:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
Forgive me but I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that the anonymous opinions in this article are justified under Misplaced Pages rules? I went and read the article called "Chip Berlet." It seems that Chip Berlet has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. LaRouche too has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. However in the Misplaced Pages article on Chip Berlet each criticism is carefully attributed. There are no inflammatory accusations with no source to verify. Why should the article on Political views of LaRouche not be written to the same standard of quality? I don't see why the authors of this article would be unwilling to simply add sources for the anonymous quotes I listed on this page. --] 02:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Please identify what you think are "anonymous opinions". Virtually everything in the article is sourced, from Berlet, to LaRouche himself, and everything in between. I really don't think that repeatedly making vague accusations of original research solves anything.--]|]] 02:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::There are numerous sources cited on this page, and many of them track back directly to a LaRouche or LaRouchite publication. While I am controversial at times, my byline has appeared in the ''New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times'', and ''Des Moines Register''. I have written for a number of scholarly journals and edited books. LaRouche, on the other hand, has been published primarily by his cohort of groveling syncophants.--] 02:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Yep. I'm removing the OR tag.--]|]] 02:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
I have listed them once before on this page. Here they are again. They cannot be verified. | |||
*"Several critics of LaRouche argue that his ideas about economics are not original and are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck; and the corporatism of Italy under Benito Mussolini, Spain under Francisco Franco, and Portugal under Antonio Salazar." | |||
*"As for moving from the left to the right, historically a number of fascists started out as socialists, and critics argue this is the case with LaRouche." | |||
*"According to his critics, LaRouche's personal egotism is a significant force driving his politics." | |||
*"LaRouche's critics claim he is a "disguised anti-Semite," in that he takes the classical anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and substitutes the word "Zionist" for the word "Jew", and ascribes the classical anti-Semite's caricature of the evil, scheming Jew to particular, named, Jews and groups of Jews, rather than to the Jews as a whole." | |||
*"His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset." | |||
*"What LaRouche supporters see as praising classic culture, LaRouche critics see as a bias against non-White, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities." | |||
--] 16:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Hmmm. You ''may'' have a point there. I'll see what I can do.--]|]] 22:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::I looked. Please read the article again, as ''all'' of your quotes are cited.--]|]] 22:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::] has gone to the trouble to check the claims of lack of sourcing. I think it is s serious issue that the anonymous critic apparently does not even bother to read the text carefully enough to see that the claims of lack of citation are--to be blunt--bogus.{{unsigned|Cberlet|03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)}} | |||
::::Thanks, Chip. I invite anyone else to review the article, and the disputed quotes above, to ensure that it's accurate and sourced.--]|]] 03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::::Sorry, forgot to sign. A bit tired.--] 04:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::::No problem. Happens to the best of us :)!--]|]] 04:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
I am mystified that you would insist that they are cited. For example: | |||
*His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset." | |||
Who are these "critics"? They are not named. What is the source for the quote "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," ? No publication is mentioned. | |||
In each case where "critics" are mentioned in my list the critics are unindentified. Perhaps you don't understand what I am asking. If highly inflammatory accusations are being made, the reader should know who is making them. I am asking that the authors of the article identify the "critics." | |||
This is the correct thing to do under Misplaced Pages policy. An example of an undesirable Weasel Term at at ] is "Critics say that..." --] 16:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::Arguing with a conpiracy theorist is like trying to toilet train a badger. It annoys the badger, and you get covered in crap.--] 17:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::There's no need to insult this person. He or she seems to make a reasonable request. If you follow the link to "avoid weasel terms" you will read the following: | |||
::::A '''weasel term''' (or '''weasel words''') is a phrase that hides bias in a statement by attributing an opinion to anonymous sources. Weasel terms give a statement the force of authority without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without a weasel term, it lacks ]; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed. | |||
:::This seems to fit the aforemention list of statements like a glove. Therefore the POV notice should stay until those statements are removed, or the critics are identified. --] 04:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
::::As I already said, they are. Read the whole article, and don't pick one sentence from a well sourced paragraph to support your viewpoint.--]|]] 22:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
:::Sean, I did in fact read read your posts, along with all the others, before adding one of my own. If you know the identities of the critics in the examples cited, please add them to the article and that will go a long way toward solving the neutrality problem. I realize that the names of critics such as Berlet, King and Lyons are mentioned in connection with other opinions or quotes, but the opinions mentioned on the list above are anonymous. I also think that it is inappropriate for you to decide all on your own that the dispute over neutrality has been resolved, so I would like to ask you to refrain from deleting the notice until matters are settled. --] 18:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
I see that Cberlet has provided an attribution for one of the anonymous opinions. That is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I have looked at a variety of dispute notices and I am posting "neutrality disputed" on this article, because the remaining anonymous quotes suggest bias under the guideline of "avoid weasel terms." Snowspinner, if you believe that this is the wrong notice, I would appreciate it if you would suggest an alternative, rather than deleting it with a flippant comment. --] 18:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC) | |||
Cberlet and Snowspinner have had plenty of time to provide citations for the anonymous opinions. Cberlet did provide a citation for one of them. If they do not want to provide citations for the other opinions, they should be removed. There is plenty of well-sourced criticism of LaRouche available, and I will substitute properly sourced criticism if the citations cannot be found for the unsourced criticism. --] 02:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for your patience. Cberlet and others have had another call upon their time recently due to an ArbCom case. If you have properly sourced criticisms that are noteworthy then go ahead and add them. The removal of whatever unsourced criticisms remain can be handled as a separate issue. Cheers, -] 09:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
Sean Black, I am being patient, but I am not abandoning my request for neutrality, so please do not remove the announcement again until this has been worked out. --] 16:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
I read the articles on Misplaced Pages policy carefully before I attempted to make any edits. Does anyone else do this? Yesterday editor SlimVirgin deleted the neutrality disputed announcement from "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," without participating in the discussion on the talk page. If that editor had read the talk page, it would have been clear that there were serious reasons for the neutrality dispute. Then SlimVirgin simply deleted criticism from the "Chip Berlet" article, also without participating in the talk page. This seems like it could be considered biased editing. | |||
Willmcw told me that I should put material about the John Train Salon in this article, so I will. --] 06:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
:Note to BirdsOfFire: In several instances on various LaRouche-related pages you have called for cites and facts when they already exist, in some cases on the same page, just lower in the article. It is appropriate to demand cites. It is not appropriate to demand cites when they already exist.--] 18:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
== LaRouche's Conspiracy == | |||
More details on Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy theories from a www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_924_lar_mozart.html Fidelio artical on Mozart, and wlym.com/PDF-77-85/CAM7811.pdf an old Campaigner issue which seem to suggest that this conspiracy predates Aristotle, back into ] and ] (though, it is possible that the Aristotlians refined these ideas). Also, the ] are supposedly an extension of the ] (which ultimately links them to the ]). | |||
He also has a unique perspective on the Freemasonic conspiracy, in which Continental Masonry (the "true" Freemasons) where and probably still are at war with the Anglo Masons (well duh). This means that he has made distinctions between the Masonic orders, this is rare amongst conspiracy theorists (who tend to over generalize). | |||
There are two things I do dissagree with him on. First (though I do not have assertive evidence for these preposals): His adherence to pure rationality (See: ]) states that ideas can emerge purely without perception. I am not ''sure'' if this is wholly possible (birthing somebody in a sensory depravation tank could only reveal whether or not this is), though there is good evidence from ] and other forms of ] and ] that could indeed suggest an objective Pleroma. | |||
Secondly: As a Christian, and somebody who has studied evil/sin (one and the same, simply means malfunction, or "foul ball"), their is a little problem concerning the dichotemy between the spiritual and the material. I agree on ] being incorrect in seeing the Spiritual and the Physical as ''inherantly'' incongruent (remember, Gnosticism is the religious cult based on ] in which our substantial universe is at odds with ]). I agree that ''inherantly'' and ''ideally'' the pragmatic world an extension of the idealic and are mostly one and the same (this would be ]). However, LaRouche ignores Christianity's most basic tennent, being that man (and the universe he lives in) has been estranged from God. This universe is in danger of dying out and man with it unless he accepts God's assistance (which requires humility, since it is bassically admitting inherant incompetance and dependancy, which is particularl hard for males since this has a catrating effect). And this is not merely a Biblical assertion. Any sight of evil in this world will varify this (particularly in hospitals, prisons, nature shows/safari, and traveling freakshows). So while I agree with LaRouche in principle on this, I must dissagree with him that that is presently so (and the Bible is relevant, since he professes Christianity). | |||
Otherwise though, when I first read one of his pamphletes (''Children of Satan'') ''alongside'' another pamphlet dealing with industry and a trip to India (I believe this is strategic, showing him to be Politically/Fiscally Far left and Socially Far Right, where they respectively count) was extraordinary, I have never seen anything like it before. I was struck by the insight of those articles (these where things I had, myself, suspected myself, but lacked the vocabulary or evidence to express it). | |||
] 02:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Thanks for your comment, but the purpose of this page is not to discuss LaRouche's ideas in the abstract. Rather, it is to discuss this article about his ideas. If there is any specific detail of the article you'd like to discuss, please do so. There are a number of forums elsewhere to discuss LaRouche and his ideas. Thanks, -] 05:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/13197.html is an intersting forum on various aspects of LaRouche's movement. -] 07:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::That was rather considerate of you, thanks very much, looks like a good place. | |||
] 23:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Queen involved in drug trade== | |||
I have carefully read ] and I ask other editors to do the same. It says that statements which are not properly verified may be removed by any editor, especially if the article is about a living person. This article is one of several that make the claim that LaRouche says the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade. The only acceptable verification for this claim is a quote from LaRouche. Cberlet has attempted to use articles that he himself wrote as a source for this claim, but those articles also do not offer any documentation. If you say that LaRouche said it, you must demonstrate that LaRouche said it. | |||
LaRouche has said many controversial things. I began reading Misplaced Pages some months ago because I was puzzled by things I read in his pamphlets. However, I am now more puzzled, because the Misplaced Pages articles seem to focus more on things that Chip Berlet claims that he said, but for which no evidence is presented. Isn't LaRouche controversial enough without embellishment by his critics? --] 16:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Here is a published cite: | |||
::"Most of the 22 active and retired government and military officials interviewed said that they have been wary of speaking with the LaRouche associates. | |||
::"It may seem far-fetched that a group that says that Walter F. Mondale is a Soviet secret police "agent of influence" and that the queen of England is involved in international dope-dealing could be "useful" to top federal government officials. | |||
::"But a number of government officials say much of the group's intelligence is accurate. The LaRouche outfit has had more than 100 intelligence operatives working for it at times, and copies the government in its information-gathering operation, ex-members and other knowledgeable sources said." | |||
::::John Mintz, 1985, "Some Officials Find Intelligence Network 'Useful'," ''Washington Post'', January 15, online at: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/larouche/larou1.htm | |||
:--] 18:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
John Mintz saying that they believe it is no different than you saying they believe it. If a viewpoint is being attributed to LaRouche and/or his supporters, there must be a quote from LaRouche and/or his supporters. If no such quote exists -- and there are libraries of quotes from LaRouche, you have one yourself -- then we are simply looking at some critics maliciously circulating or repeating a false rumor. --] 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Does not matter. Mintz is a legitimate reporter at a mainstream daily newspaper. The charge appears in print. LaRouche is a convicted felon and crackpot with a long history of lying. Compare the sources. The claim meets Wiki source requirements. --] 03:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Hertzberg and LaRouche== | |||
I removed Hertzberg from the list of Jewish leaders LaRouche "dialogues with." While it is true that Hertzberg was interviewed in EIR, he has since disavowed any support for LaRouche and is deeply disturbed by LaRouche's extremist and possibly anti-semitic views. This is my first edit on Misplaced Pages, so be gentle. ] 21:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Now I Remember== | |||
'''Actually''', I did want something specific to mention (but forgot along the way). I wanted more concentration on LaRouche's ]/]/] claims, since according to him, this is where the whole ] ] emerged from. It was really a matter of emphasis (and the fact is that there is some mention of this in the article, though not enough to really show his conspiracy theory in depth). The Gnostic stuff shows what he considers the main problems with his enemies' views (basically, he feels that ] ] and ] ] hold a common view that the physical and metaphysical worlds are ireconcilable and thus have nothing to do with the other (thus, justifying their immorality). | |||
Both of these where mainly intended for the "Politics" section, mainly for clerification into what his whole ideology and the nature of the conspiracy. Basically, it is not merely the British. | |||
Again thanks | |||
] 03:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
== Original Research revisited == | |||
Hello. I came here as a reader who was looking for critical analysis on LaRouche and his beliefs. I'm in no way a LaRouche supporter. I'm simply looking for information. What I've found here at this article is troubling. The fact that so many of the external links go to the website of Chip Berlet is quite distrubing. What's more disturbing is that many of the links to his site aren't included as a citation of what the views of LaRouche's critics are, but rather as a verification of what LaRouche's own views allegedly are. (Those sort citations should be made directly to LaRouche's own work or at least to a reputable news source that at least attempts to present issues with a neutral tone.) And the fact that Mr. Berlet has been quoted in some mainstream media articles does not mean that anything that he or his organization publishes becomes a reputable news and information source. What's even more disturbing is the fact that Mr. Berlet himself has been extensively editing this article. This allows him to use Misplaced Pages - with its large reader-base and its appearance of neutrality - as a mouth piece and soapbox to influence a much larger audience than his no-so-well-known website would be able to without Misplaced Pages. What's perhaps most disturbing is that - judging form the discussions on this and other talk pages - these issues have been raised repeatidly for quite some time now but little seems to have changed. Mr. Berlet apparently has the support of Slim Virgin and some other infulential people at Misplaced Pages, so he's been allowed to continue the practice of doing orginial research, publishing it on his own blog, and then including it here at Misplaced Pages. This situation needs to be honestly and openly addressed by the broader Misplaced Pages community - with people weighing in who don't have much in the way of prior association with either camp. | |||
As for this article, I think it needs to be pretty much re-written. The resulting article will likely be a whole lot shorter if it is limited to more mainstream soruces. Neither Berlet and his allies' publications, nor LaRouche's are reputable news and information soruces, so citations to either should be kept at a minimum and limited to a verification of the *opinions* of both LaRouche and his critics. Facts should all be cited to mainstream media sources. Given that LaRouche is most often ignored by the mainstream media, there will probably be less extensive coverage, but that's ok. Misplaced Pages's coverage of individuals and their views should be proportionate to their relative notability. And while LaRouche certainly has some noteriety as an excentric fringe personality, he ranks pretty low on the notability scale compared to many, many others in American politics - most of whom have much less extensive coverage on Misplaced Pages. The best way to maintain Misplaced Pages's credibility, and to prevent these articles from being uesed as soapboxes by LaRouche's supporters *or* his opponents, is to limit their scope to what can be reasonably included under an honest interpretation of both the letter and the spirit of Misplaced Pages's "No Original Research" policy. ] 20:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
PS - I look forward to responses from people who can honestly claim some real detachment on these issues. ] 20:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I came to Misplaced Pages because I have been exposed to LaRouche's ideas and I find them obscure and overly full of difficult historical analogies -- but what I found here is just what you describe. Not helpful explanation about LaRouche, but all kinds of theories from Chip Berlet that seem to have very little to do with LaRouche's actual ideas. It seems like Berlet is reluctant to attack LaRouche for LaRouche's actual ideas, so he pretends that LaRouche is some sort of right-wing populist and attacks him for that. This is not very convincing to me, and it also casts doubt on the reliability of Misplaced Pages as a source of objective info. --] 20:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:By the way, all of the LaRouche articles are like this one. --] 20:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::The book I cowrote with Matthew N. Lyons on ''Right-Wing Populism in America'' was published by a major publisher: Guilford Press. That the publisher allowed the section on LaRouche to be published on the website of Political Research Associates hardly means that it only appeared on a "blog." The same is true with the report co-authored with Joel Bellman, a respected journalist, ''Lyndon LaRouche: Fascism Wrapped in an American Flag.'' This report was published in print form by Political Research Associates. Many of the cites on this and related pages track back to the PRA website because for months supporters of LaRouche claimed I was misrepresenting LaRouche's own views, and I was forced to scan in several key documents and post them on the PRA website. I find it unfortunate that I am repeatedly subjected to vicious derogatory comments about my professional work outside of Misplaced Pages, and face the constant attempt to conflate my Misplaced Pages editing with nasty and demeaning claims that question my inegrity as a journalist and scholar. These claims may be coated in sugary pseudo-polite language, but they are false and reprehensible personal attacks nontheless. Major scholarly publishers, mainstream newspapers (including the ''New York Times'', ''Boston Globe'', ''Chicago Sun-Times'', and ''Des Moines Register''), and several print encyclopedias find my work to be professional and informative. Ask me to defend my claims and provide cites, but please stop the nasty personal attacks.--] 20:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::The only person I see making a nasty personal attack right now is you, Mr. Berlet. I have said nothing about you as an individual, rather I have criticized your editing practices here. "I was forced to scan in several key documents and post them on the PRA website." Nobody "forced" you to do that. But when you did that, you were carrying out original research. And that's fine for your own website, but not for Misplaced Pages. If one of the "mainstream newspapers (including the ''New York Times'', ''Boston Globe'', ''Chicago Sun-Times'', and ''Des Moines Register'')" had reported specifically about you scanning those documents and verifying the alleged quotes, then that could be included and cited. Also, the fact that an article was "published in print form by Political Research Associates" doesn't really mean a whole lot. All it means is that your organization paid to have your words applied in toner on some paper. That doesn't mean that your essay became a mainstream information source. One more point for now - One thing that I'm really curious about is if your research is really so notable, howcome it doesn't naturally find its way into Misplaced Pages on its own? Most notable writers and theorists don't spend considerable ammounts of their time editing Misplaced Pages - for the simple reason that anyone who's very notable will have an audience for their statements and ideas without having to post it themselves on Misplaced Pages. As such, they find it much more efficient to spend their time writing and speaking - knowing that they can rely on the mainstream media and others to publicize their ideas for them. ] 22:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::I repeat: please stop the nasty personal attacks.--] 01:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
This article should present LaRouche's ideals only. Critics can be placed in Critics of at the end in links. It should not be used by Cberlet or anyone, left or right to debate his views. FACTS, that is all that is important here for his political views. God knows, this man, is constantly being attacked here based on Berlet and Company's analysis alone; without outside (of PRA) analysis of Berlet and his motivations counterbalancing this. For example, the biography on LaRouche should not be a smear campaign against the man. This is an encyclopedia, not a political website. Every statement by him or about him does not beed explanation to the contrary. Critics of his biography, or especially here can be placed in the cites or links section or in a brief section at the bottom. Let's make this an honorable site and not an attack site on people and their beliefs. --] 21:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
Okay, let's back up here. If AnonIPuser, Northmeister, NathanDW, and/or anyone else could tell us what specific problems you have with the article, and how you think they can be fixed, that would be very helpful.--] <sup><font color="#FC0FC0">]</font></sup> 23:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:We've been through this before with LaRouche supporters and I daresay we'll go through it again. AnonIPuser, of course the research organization Cberlet works for pays to have his articles published, just as the ''New York Times'' pays to have its reporters articles published. The important point is that he is a known researcher who has been published by a number of research and news organizations, including the one he currently works for, which makes him a reputable source for Misplaced Pages; and in addition, he is known as an expert on Lyndon LaRouche. He has not engaged in original research that I have ever seen, and your post above shows you haven't understood our NOR policy. So please, if you have particular sentences within this article you would like to question, post them here, but if you continue to attack individual contributors, you'll be ignored (by me, anyway), and possibly blocked. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
SlimVirgin and Cberlet always respond to any criticism of their methods by accusing you of being a LaRouche supporter. It's like Bush accusing all his critics of being pro terrorist. --] 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Your http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/NathanDW contributions have nothing to do with why we might think that, of course. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 02:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, please take a look at my contributions. The only things I have ever ADDED to Misplaced Pages are some material on Daniel O. Graham, because I know something about him, and this criticism to the Chip Berlet article: "''Online Journal'' Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation."www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm" | |||
::Otherwise, I have simply responded to things I saw in the Lyndon LaRouche articles that violate Misplaced Pages Policy (which I have read.) This includes: | |||
::*Opinions attributed to anonymous sources, or Weasel Terms (see ]) | |||
::*Quotes taken out of context or "spun" | |||
::*Improper citations (such as in Jeremiah Duggan, where Cberlet put inaccurate "summaries" cited to sources which said something completely different) | |||
::This does not make me a "LaRouche supporter." If makes me an opponent of propaganda and a supporter of Misplaced Pages policies. --] 01:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I've read what has gone on before and am quite sure that those who established this site would not be to pleased with the way it is used to discredit people for insisting that an article that is suppose to be about Lyndon LaRouche's political ideas be about THAT and from multiple sources not just PRA. PRA is the same group that has also called other prominent persons 'names' and taken quotes out of context, mixing them up with Nazis, Fascists, and even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite. This group is not exactly credible, especially if your going to judge Lyndon LaRouche not credible enough on historic matter. I would suggest instead of jumping the gun on these things you read the history behind Berlet and company and their smear campaign against certain individuals who propose a certain view or oppose a certain view. Much of their work comes close to being not only questionable but downright slander and liable to the extreme. As to your above statement, one just because someone is interested in particular subjects gives no credence to call them a supporter of anyone or thing. Two even if NathanDW is a LaRouche supporter, that makes him no different than someone being a Bush, Perot, or what-ever supporter. All political people have supporters, usually for ideas they hold. To discredit someone for being a supporter without judging their contributions based on MERIT of those contributions is wrong. Now the NOR policy. The Conspiracism page completely violates that policy. I would like to know your full affiliation and just how you became an administrator in the first place. To actively seek out and attempt to destroy the material of certain persons over and over again and use this site to forward political agendas is not only wrong but against policy. You have a history of this as well as others I've been reading about. I became interested in this whole mess when I was accused of being a LaRouche supporter just for questioning the poorly done producerism page (which has conflicting definitions of producerism and is a neologism that traces either to Berlet himself or Fazio) and for edits I made on other pages. I would like you to know that if persons such as yourself or others are going to make false allegations, then your going to have to show proof of this; and indicate why this matters at all. The MATERIAL matters...is it factual or is it not. Material from Chip Berlet, especially pertaining to this page is suspect, read your own policies. --] 02:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::From Northmeister: "even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite." This claim is either based on inferior research or is simply an outright lie. Never happened. See: ] Apologies are optional.--] 02:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::When I am wrong I admit it. It was over SPLC which your links and links from there show the controversy. The point I make above I stand by though from everything I've read from you, I agree with their analysis. --] 03:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
Okay, again: Let's calm down our rhetoric. If you have specific complaints about the article, ], please list them here. Otherwise this just a flamewar that I will remove in due course.--] <sup><font color="#FC0FC0">]</font></sup> 02:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
I have complaints Sean, but if I list them then I will only be attacked once again for doing so. My concern is mainly authenticity and multiple sources and the structure of this article. This article should be about beliefs that are POLITICAL, not beliefs that are personal to LaRouche or about out of context statements made that are not official beliefs. This should only be about those beliefs. Links for Critics of these beliefs should be listed. I'll start there. But like I said, the same tactic as was used above on NathanDW has been used on me...thu calling me a LaRouche supporter in an attempt to rid my edits (I am not associated with that organization, though I know of them and their work on history and economics is competent,) of use, because of the Wiki policy on using LaRouche material; that's despite the fact I never once use such material or said I was affiliated with this group. Lumping into a group I do not belong to is not right, nor is it on anyone. This is a witch-hunt and McCarthyism and I reported these tactics to the Board. --] 03:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Restoration and why== | |||
I restored the version with the above details. It is important first because the said person's including myself all agree as people have before agreed. This article is titled to much toward one particular perspective and using material that is from 'less than reputable sources'. The original questions of the argument are legitimate. I consider deletion of that material akin to covering up the points made. This is not so much an issue over Mr. Berlet, but over a credible encyclopedic article about Mr. LaRouche's political views. The objections to the article listed are well detailed above and in the past. These are legitimate complaints and should be heard...I will repost the most relevant complaints from above, a record needs kept on this witch-hunt going on and the use of Wiki-pedia in this manner. --] 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
POINTS concerning this article: | |||
'''"I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy?"''' | |||
** "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." -Why is this policy not being enforced? Besides Mr. Berlet and those associated with his books and website, who else concurs with his opinions to make them not fit into the category above? | |||
'''Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section: | |||
:Republicanism v. Fascism | |||
:Racism or Higher Culture? | |||
:The Brainwashing Incident | |||
:Let's edit them in order | |||
We can do this!--] 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)"''' | |||
**The point of this article is not to critic Mr. LaRouche's politics, but to display them as they are truly represented. The manner and glee in putting together certain parts of this article are not honorable and I question the inclusion of each of those sections as part of this page, they might belong elsewhere, not here. | |||
'''"except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to by Slim Virgin"''' | |||
**This is my whole point of contention. Chip Berlet and his 'belief' has no place in this article per above, maybe elsewhere. The point SlimVirgin made is excellent, it is my point. It is appropriate to say "here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to ]" This is my issue. Express his political views, no analysis of them. An encyclopedic article should be straight, neutral, and to the point on the issue it deals with. | |||
I will stop here for my points, because the above says it all for me. These are legitimate points about this page and need addressing and not in a manner to discredit the messenger so to speak who brings these things up. I would ask others to put their contentions down straightly as I have done. I expect the above questions to be answered fairly. --] 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
I wish to also add each of the points made from PubliceEye website or those associated be backed up with other sources not associated with that website. Further the stuff on Gays on down needs to be deleted, as it is smear and contains nasty stuff like attributing that his wife left him so he became anti-feminist. This is POV and it is a nasty smear. This is not fit, nor the stuff below as it presently is written. Just provide FACTS of his political beliefs, no analysis of his beliefs. Let Berlet do that on his website, which can be provided as a link in a Critics of link section. The Fascism stuff needs reworking too, to start. --] 05:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:To answer your questions: Yes, Chip Berlet and Cberlet are the same person. Berlet is a foremost expert on the topic, and we're fortunate to have his input. We allow adherents and detractors to edit articles, and there is no problem so long as each editor follows policies on NPOV, NOR, sock puppetes, etc. In this instance, there is no reason to believe that Berlet does not represent the mainstream view of the subject. Outside of controlled media there is no discernible positive publicity about the subject. Regarding your other issues, if LaRouche has had significant policies on gays or AIDS then this article should cover them. Some folks have complained about the censorship of LaRouche's theories here, but this is the primary article that covers them. Let's not omit anything that needs to be here that we can fit in. -] 09:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:I don't mind Mr. Berlet's input; but the points he makes are not mainstream. He is associated with a group the PRA, which is a political watchdog group that takes things 'out of context' and attempts to label people. If this article or any with Mr. Berlet's contributions are to be balanced...there is a need for other sources to back what he has to say up. Mr. Berlet has been criticised and represents a fringe view. The definition given by the founder of a minority opinion applies to him. He has attacked Fulani, Perot, Buchanan, Horowitz in addition to LaRouche. His group is organized with that purpose in mind. The website is no different if not worse than LaRouches website and has come under increasing criticism for it's McCarthy like tactics against individuals on the left (especially) who decide to work with people on the right (a noble thing to achieve results, ie. the Constitutional Convention, all Peace Treaties ever signed etc.) in compromise over areas of agreement. Such individuals working together, such as Fulani and Buchanan in 2000, does not mean those individuals share common belief on everything, but they shared a common belief on the Reform Party stances; taking out of context statements, putting them in a ill-gotten context, and then linking all these individuals with the tyrannical and oppressive philosophies of Nazism and Fascism is their tactic. This is not proper for Misplaced Pages and Mr. Berlet is the only one (and his PRA associates) who seem interested in doing this. Without further backup from credible sources other than Mr. Berlet (who represents a fringe view) then it is inappropriate per wiki policies to quote him alone or to cite him or those at PubliceEye or PRA or associated sites; especially on a page of someone he is engaged in smear campaign against. That applies also to his philosophy pertaining to Buchanan and others he and PRA attack. I'm ok with his citations as long as other citations are used outside of websites or books associated with his organization; and as long as the LaRouche, Buchanan, Perot and other persons he attacks are allowed to indicate their citations pertaining to this subject. --] 15:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::You're right, of course - Berlet's views are not mainstream, because they are the only well-researched views to speak of on the subject. The problem is that the subject is a crackpot conspiracy theorist who has attracted a cult of followers, and so, really, no views on the subject, including the subject's own, can be considered mainstream. What Berlet's views are, on the other hand, is researched, and they are ''vastly'' more mainstream than anything LaRouche has ever said and will ever say. ] 22:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::I don't care to debate whether this person is right or that one is more right, that's not my point. I am asking that the wiki policy on a non-mainstream small minority (of one and a few associated with the one at PRA) be enforced. Also the above statement is your opinion, pure and simple and I am not debating opinions. I've read some of Chip's stuff since coming here due to being accused of being a LaRouche supporter and that whole mess and I stand by my assertions of his credibility. But that is really not my point, nor should it be. Debating who is more mainstream or not? I don't wish to do that. Just enforce the policy of wikipedia and be fair and honest. '''This page in particular should reflect LaRouche's political views as he has stated them, there doesn't need to be analysis of them by a critic of one or a few (that violates policy), just present the views and let the reader be informed.''' '''In the links section, present links from critics to Mr. Berlet's site to allow the reader to be informed of Chip's assertions and PRA's assertions. This is how neutral is done.''' Either enforce Wiki policy on this (I've already contacted the board of Wikimedia on this because of my concern to fairness and accuracy) or take my above advice and do it fairly. Let's not make wikipedia anyones ground or debate's over politics. Just report and the reader will decide. --] 01:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::I don't know what policies you've been reading, but none that I recognize. Nowhere does it say that a subject's views must be repeated verbatim without criticism. In fact, ] says quite the opposite: | |||
:::::*Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. | |||
:::::*ources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities. | |||
:::::*elf-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. (''Executive Intelligence Review'' counts as self-published as do the LaRouche websites, because he appears to have full editorial control.) | |||
:::::*Self-published sources and other published sources of dubious reliability may be used as sources in articles about themselves ... so long as the information is notable, not unduly self-aggrandizing, and ''not contradicted by other published sources'' (my emphasis). | |||
:::::So in fact, we've probably included more from LaRouche himself in these articles that we had to, given that the words "unduly self-aggrandizing" and "contradicted by other published sources" could be LaRouche's middle names. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::Bluntly put, if Berlet's views are not mainstream enough or notable enough to be in this article, then this article is not mainstream or notable enough to exist. ] 02:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
What I see being raised in this discussion is that Chip Berlet has a poor reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and that PRA should be considered a "self-published source." The policies you are raising (]) apply to him too. ''Online Journal'' Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation." <nowiki>www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm</nowiki> --] 01:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Then you see wrongly. Cberlet works for a research company. He does not have full editorial control and is therefore not a self-published source. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 03:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
::What errors of fact in my work can you cite? In 35 years of writing published material I have made mistakes, but other than the opinions of a handful of critics (mostly conspiracy theorists and some right-wing zealots) I have seen no evidence to support the claims being made here about the overall integrity and accuracy of my work. I am really tired of having my professional integrity and accuracy attacked by editors who are unable to supply actual evidence.--] 02:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
You make a good point Phil and SlimVirgin your not neutral in this stuff as is obvious by your name calling above. I don't want this discussion to amount to who is more credible, I want a fair and honest report on Mr. LaRouches views. Such items as on his wife and Mr. Berlet's analysis that he became anti-feminist is outright wrong for this page. There is a difference between stated political views and the reasons behind them. The only man who knows why LaRouche thinks as he does is Mr. LaRouche, not Mr. Berlet or King or anyone else. They've written books about him from the fringe and the stuff added here to 'political' views are from their source material. Lyndon LaRouche was a political candidate for President and deserves mention in one article that is fair and accurate, with links to criticism of him going to his critics websites. The entire LaRouche article does not need to contain point counter point, smear, out of context statements used in a ill-gotten way, or other material from one group of individuals and association. Does that not make sense? I agree there are far to many articles on this website about him, there should be one and it should contain an honest biography and statement of his principles, with a link section to his critics. If a fringe organization such as Mr. Berlet's is allowed to publish their material on wikipedia it is only fair and honest to allow Mr. LaRouche's people to do the same. If PublicEye is allowed as a source, then it is only fair and honest to do the same for the Larouche websites. The most important thing for an encylopedia is accuracy and backup with other sources. So if material is used from either, backup sources from outside of their organization must be provided in lieu of their inclusion. This is fair, balanced, and neutral according to wiki policy. Further, individuals should not be allowed to accuse persons of being what they are not without evidence to the same. I find it very offensive that some of my edits in the past had been taken out claiming they were 'LaRouche ideas'. This type of thing was called a name once and condemned, namely McCarthyism and the man Dwight D. Eisenhower condemned it. That is what Mr. Berlet is engaged in if you go to his site; and that is what is currently going on here at Misplaced Pages. False accusations, stalking of individuals, making accusations as to the authenticity of Mr. LaRouches ideas base on Mr. Berlet and his associates alone. I do hope you see yourselve's for what your doing. This is my last statement on this. I will not edit this page however. I will leave that to people who know Mr. LaRouches ideas politically and who are credible on this subject. SlimVirgin, Will Beback, Cbertlet are all part of a clique out to ruin the reputation of wikipedia in the name of a witch-hunt using Chip Berlet's material alone. I will not participate in this and I CONDEMN it with every being of my SOUL. --] 02:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Enough. If you disrupt this talk page with personal attacks once more, I will block you from editing for 48 hours. Fair warning. If you want to discuss, discuss- but no moreof this.--] <sup><font color="#FC0FC0">]</font></sup> 03:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
==It is not anti-semitic to say "the Jew"== | |||
It is POV to say that the use of the expression "the Jew" is anti-Semitic. Here is an example of this use that is clearly not anti-Semitic: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html SlimVirgin put back in that LaRouche says "the Jew" which is a usage typical of anti-Semites. I think this is particularly propagandistic on her part, because the article in which LaRouche says it is an article attacking anti-semitism. I am removing that sentence. --] 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
:The example you give above is just another way of saying "the individual Jew": it's a turn of speech. That wasn't how LaRouche meant it. Regardless, I've removed it as original research, but I've retained that he used the expression, because he did. We can let the reader judge how he meant it. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 22:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Mediation== | |||
I see that SlimVirgin has deleted all the material about the mediation. I think that this is a questionable decision. Here is the new location: ]. I have been meaning to say something, and I'll say it here. The problem is that when I or Northmeister or anyone else asks those three editors (Cberlet, Will Beback, SlimVirgin) to comply with Misplaced Pages policies by providing veriable sources, the same thing always happens: stalling, stonewalling, and accusations that anyone who asks for veriable sources is a LaRouche supporter. I have many criticisms of LaRouche, but I don't see that as justification for bad sourcing or propaganda techniques (quotes out of context, "spin.") I also agree that material that is sourced to Chip Berlet should have been published in a mainstream publication. I do agree that PRA is a "fringe" website, and much of what is on it could never possibly appear in a a mainstream publication. --] 16:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Sources== | |||
The two known experts on LaRouche, whether you like it or not, are Chip Berlet and Dennis King, which is why they're under constant attack by LaRouche supporters. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:NathanDW, keep in mind what is happening. Right now your under 'surveillance' by these people "Hmmmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=BirdsOfFire&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=NathanDW&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Herschelkrustofsky&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Northmeister&offset=0&limit=500,Something amiss?--] 02:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)" which is un-wikipedia like; they continue to insist on a reading of Arbcom decisions against the wishes of Mr. Jimbo Wales "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." among other statements he has made concerning targeting people who hold certain views; they continue to disrupt any article associated with Lyndon LaRouche or they think is associated with him (evidence of unified small group with a purpose and mission of ill-repute and disruption);they have been involved in Arbcom rulings in the past brought by several editors against their tactics;they are associated with Mr. Chip Berlet;they continue to assert Chip Berlet and Dennis King are the only persons of knowledge regarding Mr. LaRouche despite the evidence that such said individuals and those associated have run a constant smear campaign against not only LaRouche but the Republican Party, the Reform Party, David Horowitz, Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, Fulani among others;their assertion that these two said individuals material be used (despite being a very small minority opinion and very much slanted) is like asserting that Marx be used as the only credible source for discussion of Capitalism -absurd and fraught with deception. In the end, I tried to mediate this case and SlimVirgin refused mediation. I never intended to edit this article but to defend editors who would, from the same sort of treatment I have received since arriving at Misplaced Pages..a McCarthy like treatment that is not honorable nor according to wikipedia rules. That said, my advice is to continue with your efforts, back yourself up with evidence, and work with those who will work with you. Be fair, honest, and to the point. These tactics of theirs will be exposed for what they are since their actions speak as loud as their words do. --] 17:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Why don't you name another third-party expert on LaRouche that we can use as another source, if you feel Berlet and King aren't enough? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::Daniel Brandt has done objective research on LaRouche. You can check it out at www.namebase.org. I don't think too many people think that King and Berlet are objective researchers. They are more like the media version of Mafia hitmen. If anyone has any illusions they should check out this article: <nowiki>www.larouchepub.com/exon/exon_add1_train.html</nowiki> --] 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::Erm, that article was written from a ''pro''-LaRouche point of view, by a supporter who has no journalistic or acedemic credibilty that I can see. So that's not a reliable source on King and Berlet's reliablity.--] <sup><font color="#FC0FC0">]</font></sup> 23:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::I am not the one upholding material from a source in question for being a 'very minority view' that is not holding to consensus here. The burden is not upon I but upon editors who add material to an article. I question only the authenticity of Mr. Berlet's views in his books in lieu of the history of himself and Mr. LaRouche. I have no problem with the use of such said material if it is backed up with published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him. I make this request considering the very 'fringe' nature of PRA and their associated sites and persons. It is a fair request to protect the reputation of wikipedia from being used a political launchpad for anyone, including LaRouche people. --] 18:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::Then please, by all means suggest some "published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him," who are experts on LaRouche. But if, as you say, the "burden is not upon but upon editors who add material ..." then I suggest you leave it up to those editors, and as you're not here as an editor of the article, perhaps you could stop taking up the whole talk page with your complaints? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::I do leave it to those editors who have added material cited to Mr. Berlet, King and associates alone. If those editors can't provide sources outside of the stated individuals and associations in question for their 'fringe' nature, then that material needs to be removed until such said individuals provide citations outside of PRA and related sites or associations. If such citations are provided then it is legitimate for inclusion. I also petition to have this article moved to the Lyndon LaRouche biography, as Mr. LaRouche, although controversial does not warrant several articles here at Misplaced Pages per his influence upon American society or the world community. --] 02:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::This is nonsense. The material cited has been published. Find reputable published sources and edit text. Complaining on this page in endless circles is a waste of time.--] 02:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::::You are right, that it is a waste of time. Surely, you have sources outside of your own material that you've used to gather evidence for your books. I am interested in those sources. The reason for interest is because I find it hard to accept your research because it is not mainstream. All I need is sources added to this article which indicates outside collaboration and support of your theory about LaRouche and the quote you provide. It is not unreasonable to ask for those. In all likely-hood you have them if you've done credible research, in which case you can provide them and the matter would be closed. Any material from credible newspaper's, magazines, other published books, or from the source of your information would help to discern the accuracy of your conclusions. To base an article, that is so negative against an individual in parts, upon your assumptions and conclusions alone is not only un-scientific but is morally wrong. If someone is out there to back up what you say, let the community know, indicate the source of the material beyond your published works. Many published works exist, and the best can point to examples of other academics and published sources concerning the subject matter at hand. What is at hand here is your accusations of fascism, anti-woman ideas, and so forth of Mr. LaRouche which belong in merit if there is credible evidence for this, but not particularly in his political views article but in his biography and with outside research. All I ask is confirmation of what you say. I am no advocate for the man and did not know of him until wikipedia and my experiences here. That said, my native sense of justice cannot ignore that much of the material on LaRouche here at Misplaced Pages is from one source and associates of that source and from none other; particularly regarding a persons motivations and honor. Let us have sources and let this matter rest. --] 02:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
<--------I have read LaRouchite publications on a regular basis since 1975. I have interviewed scores of former members. I have interviewed dozens of critics of LaRouche. I have attended events and heard LaRouche speak in person. I gathered information from a wide vaiety of sources. Then I wrote articles and book chapters that were published. I have watched videos of LaRouche speeches. I read their websites. I study and write about fascism, conspiracism, antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and right-wing populism. What matters is that I did not self-published these articles and book chapters. They are in print, from whence they can be cited on Misplaced Pages. Much material that is damning to LaRouche on Misplaced Pages was produced as a result of LaRouche defenders claiming I or some other editor had misquoted LaRouche or taken his quotes out of context. This is not true. Either 1) edit using Wiki guidelines, 2) suggest an alternative wording for a sentence or paragraph backed by reputable published cites, or 3) stop wasting all of our time with vague complaints that are little more than personal attacks on me and my research. Edit or stop complaining. Please!--] 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:All right then. I accept your statements above on a good faith basis. I have no intention of editing as I have said before. I wish you and the others to be cordial with those who do wish to edit this page and allow room for reason. I have had my say and will write no more about this. I ask that you extend the same sort of consideration I've given you to NathanDW and others in the future. That is all I ask. Thank You. --] 05:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
I found out about the Alexa test (]) which is supposed to help decide whether a website is a suitable source. I checked the Political Research Associates on the Alexa site www.alexa.com/data/details/?url=www.publiceye.org and it seems that this should not be considered a suitable source. --] 16:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:The page you are referring to covers whether a website is notable enough to have an article, in the absence of other information. It does not concern whether an organizatoin that has a website is sufficient to user as a reliable source. That is covered by ]. -] 21:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
You are right. I checked that myself. Seems to me that there is a lot of stuff used by Political research that should not be. They should not be used because they do not have a high rating compared to EIR. --] 16:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
::That's not the way things work around here. Nice try. -] 22:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::Time to remove the flag.--] 22:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
== Anti-semitism and other criticisms == | |||
I think Misplaced Pages is in danger of showing a structural bias in the way it distributes accusations and counter-accusations about people across their respective entries. Most of the criticisms of LaRouche, which basically seem to me to boil down to slurs, smears and vague innuendo and insinuation, backed, if by anything, with tenuous quotes, should be briefly summarized in Larouche's article and fully documented in the entries' of the respective authors of those criticisms. | |||
As it is, entries can be "philibustered" if a few extremely partisan editors show up and start demanding that every single, pedantic claim of theirs is inserted for "balance". Eventually these claims become the "debate" surrounding the subject, and this debate takes precedence to the subject itself. | |||
There really is not a SINGLE piece of evidence in the article for any categorically anti-semitic statement made by Larouche, just vague innuendo. Concepts like "classical theories" of anti-semitism are utterly bogus. Debates about the nature of fascism have no intrinsic relevance to the article's subject and it seems to me are basically included, once again, as a form of innuendo. | |||
Misplaced Pages ought to be an encyclopedia, and it can't selectively become a running blog on a political struggle on a message board with quasi-encyclopedic semantics. | |||
:I agree with the above comments, and I note that Chip Berlet, who is both an editor for this article and the single most quoted critic, has removed the long standing "disputed" tag without offering any response to the issues raised, so I will put it back. --] 14:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
::I disagree -- this is not an agreed-upon position, and I am removing the <nowiki>{{totally disputed}}</nowiki> tag again based on the following: A lot of work was done by a number of editors on the article to create better balance, and it seems to be much improved. If there emerges more of a consensus that the article is ''still'' imbalanced, we should put the tag back, but its purpose is to show a large division of opinion -- not that a few people find it imbalanced. | |||
::Thanks, ]<font color="chartreuse">|</font>] 17:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::I'm the author of the first post to this sub thread. I appreciate the need to show a wide division of opinion. I just feel that there's a certain prejudice being manifested against Larouche as a political fringe dweller that I find disturbing. The prejudice is a lower threshold for what constitutes important and reasonable criticism of himself and his opinions. If the critics really are interested in the quality of the encyclopedia and not their own agenda of smearing Larouche, let them create a sub-article for their own views of Larouche's views. For the record, I don't like Larouche. I think he's a demagogue, a dilettante and an irresponsible historical revisionist. Nonetheless I'm interested in his ideas, and I want a reasonable article! | |||
Thankyou --] 18:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::Re-reading the section in question I see that it neutrally reports what two major critics say about him. Later on it neutrally provides information which contradicts their criticism. Do you think that we should omit the info entirely? LaRouche's positions are often described by himself or his followers in a complicated or indirect manner, and they have changed over the decades. -] 20:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::I think that it is very dubious to describe them as "major critics." They have a small, cult-like following among LaRouche-haters, but no major presence in the media, or academic credentials. If I am not mistaken, neither of them has graduated from college. There is criticism of LaRouche in the mainstream media, but it does not reflect these oddball theories that are given so much weight at Misplaced Pages. --] 01:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Are there more major critics of LaRouche then Berlet and King? If so then please name them. -] 04:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::::Robert L. Bartley, for example. Pulitzer prize winner. --] 15:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
::::::Bartley also describes LaRouche as being anti-Semitic. | |||
::::::*''Sometimes it is overt anti-Semitism; with "Children of Satan," Mr. LaRouche has chosen an Aryan-nation phrase for Jews (descendants of Cain, who was the result of Satan seducing Eve, in this perfervid theology). At other times, often in the hands of accusers who are Jewish themselves, it is a charge of secret loyalties. The Jews, or Israel, or the Likud have conspired to take over American foreign policy. | |||
::::::However that article does not so much criticize LaRouche as it criticizes media outlets for using some of the same concepts and terminology as LaRouche. I also note that the LaRouche movement discounts Bartley just like it discounts Berlet and King, in this case callimg Bartley "an asset of the Mont Pelerin Society" -] 22:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
I've always thought there was something weird in the charge that LaRouche is anti-Semitic. For example, in this quote from Bartley, he says it is "overt anti-Semitism" that LaRouche uses the phrase "Children of Satan," but on the cover of the "Children of Satan" pamphlet they had a picture of Donald Rumsfeld, who wasn't Jewish last time I checked. Bartley's argument seems to be the same as that of Berlet in the Misplaced Pages article. Bartley also says (it is difficult to follow his logic) that this sort of overt anti-Semitism can be practiced by Jews. This reminds me of the very first time I ever heard of LaRouche, which was on a TV show Geraldo Rivera used to have back in the '80s. He interviewed a general who called the LaRouche organization "a bunch of anti-Semitic Jews," which I thought at the time was rather unusual. --] 13:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
===Dennis King=== | |||
I am asking people who edit this article to read one chapter from Dennis King's book, which is available on the internet, | |||
Many of the charges LaRouche makes against his opponents seem far-fetched to me, but they are tame compared to Dennis King's diatribe. He makes every conspiracy theory I have ever seen look sober and prudent by comparison. Read the chapter and then tell me why anyone should take this guy seriously, let alone consider him a suitable source for Misplaced Pages. --] 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:Your POV opinion of King has no weight here.--] 03:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
::Hey, you don't need to take my word for it. Just read this and draw your own conclusions. --] 19:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
:::Your POV opinion of King has no weight here on Wiki since King's book was published by a major reputable publisher. A federal jury found that calling LaRouche a "small-time Hitler" was not defamatory.--] 20:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
==POV edits== | |||
This page increasingly is being edited to remove cited material and include dubious assertions that serve to sanitize the published material critical of LaRouche. This page needs to be NPOV, not a blog for people who are upset by published criticism of LaRouche.--] 03:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
:As I understand it, it is customary to be specific when making a POV complaint, citing both the offending edits and the relevant Misplaced Pages policy. --] 07:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
::And I will be specific as soon as I finish removing the fawning advertisements and plugs for LaRouche from the other page where we are discussing this.--] 13:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
==Two recent edits that were wrongly reverted== | ==Two recent edits that were wrongly reverted== | ||
Line 163: | Line 1,208: | ||
:I've had enough of this back and forth. The material has been correctly sourced, and there's no point in going on about it. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC) | :I've had enough of this back and forth. The material has been correctly sourced, and there's no point in going on about it. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
::Like it says at the talk of the page, this is a controversial topic and substantial changes to the article must be discussed before being made. I feel like I am having difficulty getting your cooperation in this. --] 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC) | ::Like it says at the talk of the page, this is a controversial topic and substantial changes to the article must be discussed before being made. I feel like I am having difficulty getting your cooperation in this. --] 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC) | ||
My questions are entirely legitimate, but instead of answering them, you blanked the page. Please take a deep breath, and then try to edit in a collegial manner. --] 00:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
==Neutrality== | ==Neutrality== |
Revision as of 00:38, 13 March 2007
Please add new comments at the bottom of the page
Biography Unassessed | |||||||
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
- Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive1, Aug 21-Nov 29
- Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive2, Dec 17-Jan 11
- Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/archive3, Jan 11-19
- Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Twrigley, Feb 27-March 06, 2006
Minority views
From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:
- If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
- If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
- If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
SlimVirgin 10:58, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
It would seem that most of Berlet's theories would belong in the third category. --HK 20:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- The condemnation of Lyndon LaRouche and his followers is nearly universal and worldwide in terms of material published in commonly accepted reference texts. The proponents of LaRouche are a tiny group that live in a bubble of admiration. I started out here merely asking that the text be reduced to 50% self-published claims by LaRouchites and 50% material from commonly accepted reference texts (all critical of LaRouche). This apparently is not OK with HK, who insists on inserting material with no independent verification. I think it is clear that HK is not capable of participating in this process in a way that is even remotely connected to the goals of Misplaced Pages. He has already repeatedy violated the strictures placed on him by the Arb. committee. He continues to enagage in personal attacks. He continues to claim that I cook quotes when it has been shown to the satisfaction of anyone but a LaRouche fanatic that the quotes are accurate and my interpretation of them is fair. Why is this being tolerated?
- Will: In an entry on the Holocaust, would you find it acceptable if the Holocaust Deniers were allowed 50% of the text space to post their views? Would it be OK to allow them to constantly rewrite the text so that their claims ended every section, thus giving those views more weight? I think not.
- Let's get back to editing. Let's be fair to the LaRouchites, but let's be editors of a serious encylopedia.
- In the meantime--once again--I ask that HK and Weed and the other pro-LaRouche editors stop editing other LaRouche-related pages and just work on this page. I am willing to just work on this page. What's the problem with that? Let's finish the work on the text on AIDS and Gay people. Here is a proposed format
- Majority view from material published in commonly accepted reference texts.
- Quote from critic.
- Quote from LaRouchites.
- Summary
- Then we move on to another section, until the article is edited. --Cberlet 12:58, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Slim: I don't know how to create a Temp page, can you create one for me to edit and tell me how to do it?--Cberlet 13:39, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- You can have a Temp page here or in your own user space. If the former, go to the search box on the left hand side. Type in (you can choose the words after the slash) Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Cberlet and press "go". A page will come up with a link saying that page doesn't exist - click here to create it (or words to that effect). Simply click on that link, and start writing on the blank page. Alternatively (and this is what most people do for personal drafts), create a page in your own user space by typing User:Cberlet/LaRouche draft, click on go, same procedure. Again, you can choose the words after the slash. Hope that helps. SlimVirgin 23:20, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with Cberlet's proposed format above. Please let's concentrate on one page at a time. As this one is protected, we must edit this one, or ask for unprotection, because we're currently abusing the protection process. We should aim to make this article the sort of thing you'd expect to read in the Encyclopedia Britannica, if they had enough space (by which I don't mean it should be so long no one will read it). SlimVirgin 23:25, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
Editing by Sections
Let's start with this section:
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
- Republicanism v. Fascism
- Racism or Higher Culture?
- The Brainwashing Incident
- Let's edit them in order
We can do this!--Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Chip, it's a good idea. What I'd suggest is to get a structure going first, and a rough estimate of desired length. Suggestion: Intro, Marxist period; Change of views, Conspiracy theories (issues like John Train Salon included here), Allegations of brainwashing, Gays and AIDS, Attitude toward Jews (including here the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry"), Attitude toward women; The LaRouche movement around the world (say something about the Schiller Institute and LYM, methods of recruitment, how many followers, how is movement financed). Then we can have LaRouche rebuttal sections, or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, so long as it doesn't lead to claim, counter-claim, and counter-counter etc. Suggest your own section headings if you want because you're the expert. I was thinking structure would be a good thing to pin down so we can pace ourselves in terms of word length, as we tackle each subject. SlimVirgin 04:22, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
Berlet's theories
If you think that I am going to accept the replacement of this article with a knock-off of Chip Berlet's web site, you are dreaming. I indicated that I would accept Willmcw's (relatively) neutral re-write of the AIDS section. It is a basis for discussion. A total re-write by Berlet is out of the question. --HK 15:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- It's not just the gay/AIDS section that needs attention. Material that should be discussed has been left out: for example, the brainwashing allegations against the movement; the period when LaRouche thought the CIA had brainwashed the membership; his belief that people want to assassinate him; how the membership is recruited; how it finances itself. You've prevented these issues from being examined in Schiller Institute, LaRouche Youth Movement, and the National Caucus of Labor Committees, so they can only go here or in Lyndon LaRouche. SlimVirgin 17:05, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't "prevented them from being discussed" anywhere, but I agree that this is the appropriate location for such a discussion, except for how the movement finances itself, which is already discussed in Lyndon LaRouche. If you want to add more material there, I have no objection, provided that it comes from a reputable source. Meanwhile, I propose that we agree to use Will's AIDS section, and unprotect. --HK 01:35, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- This http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche/Temp&oldid=9385104 was the version that Will wrote and I wrote suggestions on. Will, Cberlet and I then reached an agreement, which was we'd have what Will wanted of the AIDS quote, and what I wanted of the apparent LaRouche change-of-heart. Then you objected. If we're going to use any of the gay drafts as a basis, it should be this one; though I believe Cberlet may have in mind writing another. SlimVirgin 01:50, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
Stop Complaining and start discussing this draft
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS I propose we post it and move on to editing other sections. --Cberlet 02:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I'm fine with that version. SlimVirgin 02:42, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
- Slim: Let's go with it. As for the major re-edit, I agree we need a structure, but let's not worry about length at first. If we can agree on content that is too long, it will be easier to reduce the length later. Do you have a suggested outline?--Cberlet 04:07, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking of this (feel free to change the names of the headers: I mean them here only as areas):
- Biographical intro
- Early life
- Marxist period
- Change of views (when, why, in what form, personal reasons for change)
- The brainwashing incident
- Conspiracy theories
- Allegations of brainwashing of recruits
- Gays and AIDS (agreed)
- Attitude toward Jews (the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry", allegations of Holocaust denial),
- Attitude toward women (if there's enough to warrant a section)
- The LaRouche movement in the U.S. and around the world (National Causus of Labor Committees; the Schiller Institute; LYM; how many members; methods of recruitment, how is movement financed)
- LaRouche rebuttal sections (or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, though it makes it harder to write)
SlimVirgin 04:21, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
- Some of this seems to replicate material on the Lyndon LaRouche page, perhaps some of it can be referenced on that page and the detials moved here?--Cberlet 04:43, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Sure, I'll go along with any structure you suggest that gets us moving. If you think some of these issues are best on Lyndon LaRouche, we could leave them there and reference them here, or vice versa. The biographical intro and early life is repetitive and so can mostly refer readers to Lyndon LaRouche, except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to Lyndon LaRouche. You might think the personal circumstances that surrounded his move away from Marxism should be left on Lyndon LaRouche too. I'll go along with your preference. (For my own part, I wouldn't have separated these pages in the first place, because the man IS the politics, but I'm not suggesting a merger.) SlimVirgin 12:22, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
Evidence of "Cooked Quotes"
The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes". I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. Weed Harper 07:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Weed, could you say which parts you have edited for clarity, please? SlimVirgin 09:05, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
I shortened Herschels "Anatomy of a cut and paste job", leaving out comments that I thought were unnecessary, and I put in the italic and bold formatting. Weed Harper 21:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Next Steps
What about making temporary copies of both pages, and then moving blocks of text around until it looks reasonable, we reduce duplication, and only the most important and salient material is on the Lyndon LaRouche page? Can you make the Temp pages? Last time I made a mess of things.--Cberlet 03:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I've made Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox and Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox. Don't worry about having made a mistake. I just did the exact same thing! :-) SlimVirgin 06:10, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
OK: Here are the first "sandbox" drafts of three pages, and their associated links:
Political views of Lyndon LaRouche
There are still some (((missing paragraphs))).--Cberlet 16:23, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If you try to replace a Misplaced Pages article with a Chip Berlet article, rest assured it will be reverted. --64.30.208.48 18:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Anonymous threats. How endearing. Collect them all...--Cberlet 23:45, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- That IP address is one that the Herschel/Weed Harper account uses. SlimVirgin 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
A proposal concerning the issue of Chip Berlet and original research
Chip Berlet AKA User:Cberlet has been systematically loading both Lyndon LaRouche and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications.
Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: Time, the Washington Times, Washington Post, or New York Times. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as High Times. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA.
In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Misplaced Pages under the Misplaced Pages:No original research guidelines. --HK 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- This is not what the NPOV page describes as the standard criteria.--Cberlet 18:06, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What is at issue is not the NPOV policy, but the Misplaced Pages:No original research policy. --HK 02:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- If you do your homework, you will see that it is not considered original research for the purposes of Misplaced Pages if it has been published by a reputable and reliable publication or organization, even if I, as the author, post it--as long as I post it in the third person..--Cberlet 03:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Chip Berlet and Political Research Associates are regarded as experts in their field by other professional researchers and journalists. He is allowed to quote himself from his own publications, and that includes reports published by PRA, so long as (a) he quotes himself in the third person; and (b) he does not self-promote in an unnecessary or irrelevant way. Also, cut out the remarks about him being King's Siamese twin. Most intelligent people share these views about LaRouche, not just Berlet and King. SlimVirgin 03:11, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Slim, your POV with regard to LaRouche is no mystery. Chip, it is the reputability and reliability of your organization that is being disputed. If you can find yourself quoted in a mass-circulation publication there will be no dispute. --HK 03:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sandbox
There is another version of this article, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox, that some editors have been working on. I am going to hide the comments and post it here. Substantial material has been moved between the Lyndon LaRouche bio and that version, in order to make a more logical division between the topics. The sandbox version is a bit rough in places, but I'm sure we can smooth it out. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Four months later
This has been the quietest talk page in Misplaced Pages for the last four months. Who'd have guessed that five months ago? When I merged in the VfDed articles I glanced over the article. It is the worst of all the LaRouche articles. No offense to any editor, but there are sections that have little or no apparent meaning. "LaRouche-Riemann Method", "Culture and identity" (what exactly is the point of that anecdote - that some people are more talented than others? How did LL "collaborate" with Brainin and why does it matter?) It is hard to discern, in some places, what the reception has been to his ideas, or which are the most important.
We'd started working on a major revision but we all may have had LaRouche-fatigue after the ArbCom matter was settled. It's time to finish the work, or at least make some more progress. This article is longer than his significance warrants, especially since it is overflow from other articles. There's lots of good information in it. Some parts were the result of contentious editing, but may seem unnecessary in six months later. Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox I'm going to start playing in the sandbox again. There are many notes from our previous editing to guide us. An early step will be to re-organize it into the most logical structure. All editors are welcome to contribute productively. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that it's time to get it sorted. I'll start by doing a copy edit in the sandbox. Feel free to revert anything I do. SlimVirgin 06:01, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
I've just reverted User:The Platonist's addition of the LaRouche photograph with Martin Luther King. I did this because LaRouche was never actually photographed with Martin Luther King, and to reproduce this collage would be to publish a piece of LaRouche propaganda. SlimVirgin 21:40, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
Request for clarification
What the dickens is the "sacralization of politics"? --Stain
- It's a book. See also, www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/GENSAC.html, the publisher's blurb, and Political religion. Gentile's thesis is basically that the Italian fascists made politics into a religion. -Willmcw 03:23, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Gentile's thesis is controversial but widely read and has many proponents. The argument is that a key element of totalitarianism is the raising of a political (or other) struggle to a cosmological level so that it attains the form of a "poliical religion." Note that this is different from a "politicized religion," although in neofascist groups such as Christian Identity you have an example of both. See: Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, 2004, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement; in which Gentile wrote a lead article and then several commentators (including me) wrote lengthy responses.
concerning the legal Term "fair comment"
I was wondering if somebody might be able to explain to me why there were reverts of the following paragraphs:
1:
LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".
To this original paragraph was then the following added:
This ruling was in accordance to a U.S. Supream Court ruling that makes it clear that a public figue as a plaintiff must proofe that the opinion statet, even if untrue and harmful, was stated maliciously-with hate, dislike, intent and/or desire to harm the plaintiff. As long as this proposition can not be met the opinion is called "fair comment". That means the court did not qualify the statement of calling LaRouche an anti-Semite but judged if there was proof of mailcious intend etc. on the side of the defendend. The plaintiff in this case was LaRouche.
2:
LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".
To this was then added:
Fair comment is a legal term used in defamation cases. It does not reflect the common language use of the words fair comment.
Both changes were reverted without diskussion.
In case number 2 it was reverted with out explanation just the statement of the reverting.
So if somebody could help me with creating a less controversial paragraph that includes the information of the legal term fair comment?
I notified both reverters...
--Zirkon 13:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
In the mean time i have changed the paragraph to version nr.2.
--Zirkon 16:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- Please stop trying to invent a way to explain a court decision when none is needed. --Cberlet 17:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- I do know of at least one case where the words fair comment were misinterpretet. This means an explanation is nessesary or the paragraph is missleading. i am certain nobody wants to lead people to false conclusions about the statement "fair comment". Your answer to the argument?
- --Zirkon 17:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- I will revert your changes at 19:00 UTC. But I hope of course that within that timeframe you will give me a constructive answer - so that we can make the paragraph better. I am still looking for your help in doing so.
- --Zirkon 18:33, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- I have reverted to version number 2. I am aware of the short commings of two simple added sentences and ask anybody to cooperate with me on building a more integrated paragraph that includes the facts that Fair comment is a legal term with special implications, so that no one arrives at seemingly logical but false conclusions. This call for help includes cberlet and slimvirgin.
- Thank you in advance for your help and constructive advice.
- Zircon, in adding your own understanding of the term "fair comment" and what the judge may have meant by it, you're doing original research, which is not allowed. If you want to expand, you'd probably have to quote from the judgment itself, or quote something that one of the lawyers said before or after the case. The point of the no-original-research policy is that any analysis has to come from another reputable published source, and as this is a legal analysis, it would have to be a legal source. SlimVirgin 19:59, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry in advance for crossposting.
- So i wrote on your talk page:
- I was just using the term as obviously the Washington Post understood it. I am revering to this paragraph in this article:
- In October 1980, a New York State Supreme Court justice dismissed a defamation suit the NCLC had filed against the Anti-Defamation League and ruled that calling the NCLC anti-Semitic is merely "fair comment" or a matter of opinion.
- Is this original research?
- I mean if the WP understood that this was a special term and clarified it for its readers should we not do the same? Yes it does not say the judge used the legal term "fair comment" - instead the WP puts it so that it is implicitly seen as a legal term. Please tell me if you can come up with other conclusions.
- I'm sorry, I don't follow. I can't see where the W/Post explains the term. Please read Misplaced Pages:No original research. You seem to be trying to advance a personal opinion of yours, or build a case, and neither is allowed. SlimVirgin 20:58, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
- I understand your confusion. Please explain therefore to yourself your understanding of the words "is merely "fair comment" or a matter of opinion."
- What exactly does that mean?
- If "fair comment" would be used in the common way it would qualify the statement anti-semitic. If on the other hand it is "a matter of opinion" can it be at the same time a "fair comment"?
- I dont think so - what do you think?
- --Zirkon 21:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- I'd say fair comment means a matter of opinion, both in law and in layman's terms. The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite. Anyway, the W/Post article wasn't about the LaRouche case, so to refer to it is building a case (or it would be, if it supported your position, though it seems not to). I encourage you to read Misplaced Pages:No original research as that will make things clearer for you. SlimVirgin 21:30, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
- So we add "or a matter of opinion" to the words "fair comment"? It seems to be a good compromise for the time being.
- About not defamatory calling LaRouche an anti-Semite - this is not the case in Germany - nor following the legal definition of "fair comment" is it okay to do that in America. Just so you know... Ah well actual malice is so hard to prove...
- Just one more comment on this:
- Have you tried just googeling "fair comment"?
- And do you really believe the N.Y. Supream court would use the words "fair comment" as a judgement without intending to use them in their legal definition?
- Do you really believe that?
- Sleep over it and we will talk again.
- Let's not go through another endless round of discussion over pointless issues. The court ruling is a matter of public record. Attempts to craft apologia for the long track recond of LaRouche's antisemitism are POV. This page threats LaRouche fairly.--Cberlet 02:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Fascinating answer. Unfortunatly not putting my concerns to rest. So let me ask you too:
- 1)
- Do you believe that the N.Y. Supream Court would use the words "fair comment" as a judgement without intending to use them in their legal definition?
- 1)
- 2)
- Following your long career as a journalist Mr.Berlet did a court ever use the words "fair comment" without refering to their legal definition?
- 2)
- 3)
- And would it not be very unlikely that a court would use a such words without explicitly intending to use it as a legal term. Especially since it is the highest court in N.Y..
- 3)
- 4)
- Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite."?
- 4)
- Since the court ruling is a matter of pulic record as you put it - it should be easy to find the sentence in that court ruling that does prove that the words "fair comment" were in fact meant as the layman and Slimvirgin understands them.
- Thank you in advance Mr. Berlet for your kind help in making this a better paragraph...
- This is pseudo-legal gibberish. The term is well-established in law. This page accurately reports the judge's ruling. We cannot ever establish what was in the judge's mind. There are times whan a claim about a public figure is so outrageous and false that the protection of "fair comment" concerning a criticism of a public figure is transcended. The judge ruled that LaRouche was not able to show the claim of antisemitism was so outrageous and false that "fair comment" was not a protection. Stop this ridiculous nit-picking.--Cberlet 15:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you Mr. Berlet for your enlightening answer. Following your paragraph your answers to my questions are:
- 1)
- Do you believe that the N.Y. Supream Court would use the words "fair comment" as a judgement without intending to use them in their legal definition?
- 1)
- Answer: No. ( The term is well-established in law. This page accurately reports the judge's ruling) and no (implicit in your interpretation of the use of "fair comment" in this case)
- 3)
- And would it not be very unlikely that a court would use a such words without explicitly intending to use it as a legal term. Especially since it is the highest court in N.Y..
- 3)
- Answer: I don´t know. Because the court used an ambiguouse term. (We cannot ever establish what was in the judge's mind.)
- Well I do believe we are making progess Mr. Berlet. Refering to question Number 1 I propose that we change the paragraph to reflect our common understanding that this is a legal term.
- Refering to question Number 3 I see a direct conflict with your answer to question Number 1. Please clarify your statement so that it cannot conflict with statement Number 1.
- Unfortunately missing are answers to the questions 2 and 4.
- so I will ask them again:
- 2)
- Following your long career as a journalist Mr.Berlet did a court ever use the words "fair comment" without refering to their legal definition?
- 2)
- 4)
- Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite."?
- 4)
- ( I could not get a to a clear answer from your interpretation of the use of "fair comment" in the LaRouche case.)
- Thank you again for your clear answers to the questions I asked you. I really hope that we will soon reach a common ground on which a better paragraph can be established.
- Just to add my two bits to this ongoing mess: Zirkon asked me on my talk page to help clarify the discussion here of fair comment. I don't know too much about defamation law, so I can't really help with that. But to correct a key misconception:
- The Court of Appeals is the highest court in the State of New York; please see the article on state supreme courts. The Supreme Court is the court of original jurisdiction (meaning the trial court) for most cases. The Appellate Division of the Supreme Court is the intermediate appellate court. New York has this weird situation because previously when it was a colony of the United Kingdom, the local town and county courts had jurisdiction over most matters. Then litigants would appeal to the Supreme Court of the colony, and then to the Privy Council in London. The Privy Council still has jurisdiction over colonial matters, although it has been gradually losing power as the Queen's former Dominions continue to create their own Supreme Courts (as New Zealand did recently). So what happened was that when New York declared independence from the Crown, then there was no more Privy Council. Hence, they had to create a new court to appeal to, which ended up being the Court of Appeals. --Coolcaesar 16:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, that is very helpful. I forget that most people are not aware of this peculiarity of the New York State judiciary. Unless, of course, if they watch "Law and Order," in which case they see the signage for the trial courts list them as parts of the NY Supreme Court. Here is some text that may help put this issue of the judge's ruling in context:
- " But in 1980, the Supreme Court of New York agreed with the ADL that the publications of LaRouche's U.S. Labor Party could be qualified as anti-Semitic.... Judge Michael Dontzin of the New York Supreme Court ruled that: 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' " justiceforjeremiah.com/larouche_network_canada.html.
So Judge Dontzin essentially ruled that as a public figure plaintiff, LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended.--Cberlet 18:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
To explain how this works, I cite here two related aspects of what a public figure in the U.S. has to contend with in order to win a defamation case:
- "Fair comment: this common law defense guarantees the freedom of the press to express statements on matters of public interest, as long as the statements are not made with ill will, spite, or with the intent to harm the plaintiff." www.hfac.uh.edu/comm/media_libel/libel/definition.html
- "Actual Malice is what plaintiffs in the public eye have to prove in order to win a libel case. Actual malice is the act of publishing or broadcasting statements with prior knowledge of the inaccuracy of the statement or a reckless disregard for the truth." www.hfac.uh.edu/comm/media_libel/libel/definition.html
The statement from Judge Dontzin show elements of both, and since we cannot know what was in the judge's mind, we have to rely on just citing the "fair comment," statement, or include the longer quote in the article, which is what I would prefer.--Cberlet 18:26, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you Mr. Berlet for posting the missing link in this search for a better and less missleading paragraph.
- I will now cite the quotation of the ruling:
- 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.'
- As you can see there is no indication the judge did not use the term "fair comment" outside of its legal meaning. The legal term "" is defined in wikipedia. On this article there is also a weblink to a legal services Website that is echoing the essentials of the wikipedia article.
- Conclusions:
- A)
- I presume therefore that we have established beyond doubt the meaning of the legal term "fair comment". Furthermore that we have established that "fair comment" was used with full intention in its legal definition by the judge.
- A)
- B)
- Concerning the paragraph in question I therefore suggest changes that reflect these new found insights. Details will soon follow.
- B)
- C)
- Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic.
- C)
- D)
- Concerning my questions Nr. 2 and Nr. 4 I would still like to know your answers since they could clear up misconceptions that people harbour.
- D)
- Thank you again for your very valid help in this mission of making this a less missleading paragraph.
- I am really sorry, but I find the style and content of your comments to be incoherent and incomprehensible. I am not interested in playing intellectual chess, I am interested in helping write a factual NPOV article. Therefore I have simply added the comments by the judge. People can follow the link to fair comment if they so desire.--Cberlet 19:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Your article had changed while I was working on mine therefore I will add the following:
- Conclusion C:
- This is your own definition of "fair comment": "LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended"
- I repeat: Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic.
- About actual malice:
- I dont see any notion of this in the quotation. Following this it was not part of the court ruling. Which is enough to not bring it into the diskussion. Following the definition of "fair comment" there are also logical reasons for not doing so.
- Your comments Mr. Berlet?
- --Zirkon 19:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Ridiculous waste of time. Pedantic. Pointless. Attempt to rewrite history. You asked for my comments. I have answered honestly.--Cberlet 19:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Yes you really are opinionated but willing to talk.
Concerning the paragraph we might still have our differences and mediation might be nessasary, but this is the way things are and - considering your answers - will be.
However sometimes it is nessary to be pedantic,
after all nobody wants to misslead people,
which is the reason why this was and will not be pointless
nor will it be seen as an attempt to rewrite history.
But lets leave this for others to judge...
Willmcw would you like to comment?
SlimVirgin would you like to comment?
--Zirkon 20:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- I note that Zirkon created a Misplaced Pages page on fair comment that mischaracterised the actual complicated legal meaning of the term in a way that supports the LaRouchite line on the New York defamation case. The page is now being edited to reflect a more accurate definition and discussion. It would be helpful if Zirkon created a User Page so that we could discuss some of these related matters there, rather than filling up this disucssion page. Also, could Zirkon please stop writing in a form reflective of e. e. cummings poetry? It fills up a lot of space and makes meaning difficult to comprehend. Paragraphs are a more traditional form.--Cberlet 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- (edit conflict: I wrote this before reading Cberlet's comment). I'm not sure what you're getting at, Zirkon. If anyone wants to look up fair comment, they can check out the article, which you helpfully started. Thank you for doing that. If you want to add after "fair comment" in the article something like "which means x, y, and z," you'd have to add a fairly lengthy explanation, and there would be a danger of it becoming original research i.e. collecting known facts to build a case. The case you want to build here is presumably that LaRouche isn't really an anti-Semite, or that the court didn't really say he was. But as Cberlet points out, we can't get into speculating what the judge did or didn't intend to say (except that, as you say, the term "fair comment" would, of course, have been used in the legal sense). If you can find something in the judgment that you feel is a fairer representation of the ruling, by all means add it, but you'd probably have to find a quote from the judge, or a quote from a reputable newspaper interpreting the ruling. But we can't rely on dictionary.com to say what the judge meant in this case. SlimVirgin 21:01, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Considering the posting of Mr. Berlet from 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC): I note that your concerns about "fair comment" have not been put to rest. I find that interesting. Therefore I believe I have to ask the following questions:
C: This is your own definition of "fair comment": "LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended"
I repeat: Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic. Do I have to assume you dont want to do point C?
About actual malice: I dont see any notion of this in the quotation. Following this it was not part of the court ruling. Which is enough to not bring it into the diskussion. Following the definition of "fair comment" there are also logical reasons for not doing so. Would you please answer to this statement following your problems with "fair comment"?
4) Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite." ? Would you like to answer question Nr. 4 now Mr. Berlet?
I understand that reading through the whole thread is difficult for the casual reader i therefore will soon write a summary of the discussion so far. In doing so the questions asked to Mr. Berlet will be easier to put into a meaningfull context. And thank you Mr. Berlet we really did make progress today! Zirkon 23:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- There's no need for a summary, but please take note that your comments are hard to read when spaced out (in more than one sense, perhaps). I've reformatted. If you want people to read them, please write in normal paragraphs. SlimVirgin 23:09, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
- Zirkon: here is what I posted on the fair comment page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite:
- I have rewritten the explanation of fair comment in the U.S. once again to make matters more clear. In most states, the "fair comment" defense requires a factual basis. "The privilege of 'fair comment' for expressions of opinion depends on the truth of the facts upon which the comment is based" according to U.S Supreme Court Justice Brennan who wrote the ruling in Times v. Sullivan. This is based on Alabama law. I do not have the laws of New York state handy, but since you are attempting to write an apologia for on another page based on a New York lawsuit, you would first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis. I do not know if it does or does not. In any case, the judge in the LaRouche case who ruled it was not defamation to call LaRouche anti-Semitic is clearly indicating the defendants introduced sufficient evidence to butress the factual basis of their opinion that LaRouche was an anti-Semite.
- Feel free to dig up published commentaries on the defamation laws of the state of New York, otherwise your original research has no place on this page.--Cberlet 13:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Zirkon: here is what I posted on the fair comment page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite:
- Mr. Berlet! After I have seen your last statement I decided to just stay silent for a while to see if there would be corrections or other comments and to hope in doing so to defuse the situation.
- Unfortunatly you seem to have misinterpreted my silence. I believe you expected that I would argue immediatly against your statements and in not doing so I further believe that you assumed i had lost interest in the matter after the comments you have made...
- In order to keep a civil discussion I hope you will make certain corrections in your statements.If you dont make those corrections your statements will induce fallacies in to the reader. I am certain that this is not your intention. If you should not make the corrections I will obviously point out the potential fallacies to the reader. And thank you in advance for cooperation in cleaning up this misunderstanding.
--Zirkon 18:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
- Your complaints are without any merit whatsoever. Please stop trying to rewrite the facts of the laws of defamation to apologize for LaRouche's antisemitism.--Cberlet 00:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Administrator SlimVirgin: Following your remarks on my Talk page I realise that there is a certain difficulty on your side in following my intentions. I therefore ask you to state the points you do not understand. I also would like to ask you to explain to me what you do mean with the following words: "...hard to read when spaced out (in more than one sense, perhaps)." I assume we will work through this together?
--Zirkon 20:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
After Mr. Berlet had enough time to answer I shall proceed with pointing out the problems I have with Mr. Berlets remarks.
Quotes from Mr.Berlet are in quotation marks and itallic.
“Zirkon: here is what I posted on the fair comment page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite:”
- 1) That is a false statement. Please point out my attempts to rewrite your edits. If you cannot do so please change your words.
- 2)Please do not try to devine my intentions for other readers in this matter.
- Further comments:
- This is not the place to talk about guessed intentions in order to place a person in to a certain corner in the dabate. This discussion was about the question if it should be pointed out that “Fair comment” is a legal term. Again this is not a fight about political views or the powers of something versus the powers of something. Trying to create such perspective is corrosive to any seriouse debate.
- Such a behaviour is useful for a demagogue to rally his troops for a confrontation. It is impossible not to call such a behaviour disruptive.
“I have rewritten the explanation of fair comment in the U.S. once again to make matters more clear. In most states, the "fair comment" defense requires a factual basis. “
- ...“a factual basis”... Following your edit of the article “Fair comment”. It is a common law defence in court ... “a protection for robust, even outrageous published or spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.”
- If you use the words “a factual basis” in conjunction you will come to the following conclusion:
- “In most states the “fair comment” defense requires a factual basis.” ...”a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.”
"The privilege of 'fair comment' for expressions of opinion depends on the truth of the facts upon which the comment is based" according to U.S Supreme Court Justice Brennan who wrote the ruling in Times v. Sullivan. This is based on Alabama law. I do not have the laws of New York state handy, but since you are attempting to write an apologia for on another page based on a New York lawsuit, you would first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis.”
- A)
- As demonstrated beneath your argument that I would ...”first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis.” is a strawman argument.
- It is allways usefull to view a statement from both sides:
- a)So if I am able to show that New York law needs factual evidence I am able to prove that the judge based his judgement on facts upon which “...a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.” can be based.
- b)If I am able to show that NY law does not need factual evidence I am able to show that the judge based his judgement upon heresay/gossip upon he granted “..a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.”
- If you read the discussion above you will find that you have gone on a tangent. I still argue that it is nesessary to include a sentence about the fact that “fair comment” is a legal term. I do not know if you intentionaly set out to offer a strawmen argument but rather did not reread the whole discussion. Perhaps I should have gone on and posted a summery against Administrator Slimvirgins wishes...
- B)
- Following the words... “...since you are attempting to write an apologia...” I have to say the following:
- Again you are trying to put me into a corner. Please do not attempt to do so. If I want to make my political afiliation clear I will do so. You will not point out my intentions for me as this is not the correct way to debate a topic. I believe in doing so you are displaying disruptive behavior as I am forced to defend myself and not the topic at hand. Making an Ad Hominem argument is not acceptable in this forum. Please delete the relevant words.
“I do not know if it does or does not. In any case, the judge in the LaRouche case who ruled it was not defamation to call LaRouche anti-Semitic is clearly indicating the defendants introduced sufficient evidence to butress the factual basis of their opinion that LaRouche was an anti-Semite.”
- Following this statement I will repeat this:
- “In most states the “fair comment” defense requires a factual basis.” ...”a protection for robust even outrageous published of spoken opinions about public officials and public figures.”
- Now - following the established definition of “Fair Comment” - that does not “qualify” the statement “antisemitic” opposed to what the article (that you found) says:
- “But in 1980, the Supreme Court of New York agreed with the ADL that the publications of LaRouche's U.S. Labor Party could be qualified as anti-Semitic.... “
- While all of this is strictly of topic, it indicates that the definition of “fair comment” or “qualified” for the ADL are different than the definitions we know. This should be investigated.
- “Judge Michael Dontzin of the New York Supreme Court ruled that: 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.'”
- This points out that the common law defence “fair comment” was acceptable to the Judge. If anything it would be the definition of “Fair Comment” that could be in question here.
- Following the citation what happened was that the defendends had the oppinion that expressing “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith...” and connecting these views with “...critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' ” is anti-Semitic.
- Since there was evidence presented to the court that there were statements by the plaintivc that were highly critical in the described manner and since the plaintive could not prove that the statements by the defendend were made with “actual malice” the defense of “fair comment” was granted.
- So the court ruled about granting the defense “fair comment” not about the question if expressing “critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies in connection with “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith” qualifies you as an anti-semite.
- In other words not the interpretation of the facts was disputed but if the facts themselfs were false or not. Interpretation of facts (or expression of fact based oppinions) is a matter of free speech as long as it is a matter or person of public interest.
- It is unfortunate that the words “Fair Comment” are so easely missinterpreted. But a simple sentence added to the relevant paragraph will make things clearer for the reader.
Feel free to dig up published commentaries on the defamation laws of the state of New York, otherwise your original research has no place on this page.--Cberlet 13:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Following my statements above I shall not do so.
- In Summery:
- Mr. Berlet I ask you to do the following things:
- A: Please delete this statement:
- ....“that you keep trying to rewrite”...
- In the given context any reader will believe that somekind of edit war took place. Which was obviously not the case.
- Reputation is the most precious of commoditis in an online community. Please do not put me in to a position where I have to defend myself against statements that are not accurate or are missleading in the extreme to save my reputation. I consider this disruptive to the discussion of the topic at hand.
- B: Please do not try to use ad hominem arguments to lead the dabate astray. This is disruptive behavior. Please stop your attempts to guess my intentions. Please stop using bold statements that define your point of view on the debate. This serfs no purpose in debating the topic but displays demagogic behaviour. Example follows:
- “Attempts to craft apologia for the long track recond of LaRouche's antisemitism are POV.”
- Cberlet 02:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the article "Fair Comment":
“I note that Zirkon created a Misplaced Pages page on fair comment that mischaracterised the actual complicated legal meaning of the term in a way that supports the LaRouchite line on the New York defamation case.” Cberlet 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Following this statement it is nessesary for me to show that my own work (the copyedited version of Willmcw) does in fact echo the understanding of fair comment from the external source and does not mischaracterise it. I will do so in the fair comment forum.
--Zirkon 13:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Wow! I am very sorry, but much of --Zirkon's text appears to me to be pseudo-intellectual gibberish. I apologize for not being able to make sense of it. It still seems to me to be a lot of verbiage that results in the same situation that existed before: fancy footwork by a POV warrior out to defend LaRouche from the obvious and well-documented published claim that LaRouche is an antisemite. We do not need to misrepresent the law of defamation to arrive at that conclusion.--Cberlet 13:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Hm. I see. Thank you for your timely and interesting reaction Mr. Berlet. I have three questions to you Mr. Berlet:
- Following your statement you will not stop me from adding that “Fair comment” is a legal term?
- Following your statement you will delete the statement: ...”that you are trying to rewrite”... (see summery)?
- Following your statement you will use demagogic tatics to promote your point of view (see summery)?
- Thank you for your answers and for helping to make this a better article.--Zirkon 13:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Forgive me, but I find unctuous faux courtesy from someone challenging me to be annoying, and would prefer it if we just exchanged thoughts in simple language. You have posted trick questions that have no merit in editing an encyclopedia article. It is not a game I play. Please try to learn how to post text here on Misplaced Pages, it makes your text easier to read, takes up less room, and allows for people to follow the flow of ideas in a structured manner. As a courtesy, I have provided a reformat of your text as an example. I hope it is useful.--Cberlet 14:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Mr Berlet as always I am gratefull if somebody else is doing the hard work of editing the wikipedia artikls for me. You have to understand that I was in a hurry to answer your statement and did not precheck the article in its actual outlook. Considering the idea of trick questions. This is indeed a very interesting question to ask – are the questions I asked after your short statement really trick questions?
- What would be the nature of such a trick question?
- Would it not be a deceiving question? A question in which you would have to answer in a way that would be reveiling or damning no matter what?
- Question Number 1 is simple and can be answered with a simple yes or no. In doing so you would simply allow me to introduce the fact that “fair comment” is legal term into the paragraph. What would be the potential problem? That is for you to answer.
- Question Number 2 is also simple, but needs the actual reading of my statements (admitedly time constraints could stop you from doing it). Actually answering in the affirmative could lead to future backlashes as one could allways point that you were not accurate in your postings and actually admited it by removing the offending phrase. Answering in the negative could on the other hand lead to an arbitration commitee and to unknown shores.
- Question Number 3 is difficult. As it is a question that goes directly to your stile of answering questions and making statements. When people feel passionate about an issue they tend go on to a metaphorical soap box. However making speeches or bold statements is not what building an encyclopedia is about. So the question could also be: Will you continue making statements that are basicly devisive and destructive to the debate or will you go back to work constructivly on the topic at hand?
- Thank you again for making the editing. And thank you for your constructive work in middle part of this long dabate. (That at least you have to grand me)
- --Zirkon 15:25, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
'Bold textSorry to add another layer of complexity to an already complex argument, but... Both arguments in this case are completely void because they are trying to imply that the court ruled on whether or not LaRouche's views were anti-semitic. They did not do this. The ruling that the court made was on the comment that LaRouche's views were anti-semitic, which they ruled was fair comment. When the British courts ruled on the Marquess of Queensbury's claims that Oscar Wilde was posing as a sodomite they did not have to establish that Wilde was or wasn't a sodomite, but merely that he may have appeared to be one or that such a comment did not damage Wilde's reputation. It is possible to see LaRouche as an anti-semite and it is also possible to see him as merely being highly critical of prominent Jews and Zionism as he is of many things. I'm personally of the view that LaRouche probably is an anti-semite, but the court ruling does nothing to support or detract from this. I hope that clears up a bit of confusion. - moodsformoderns
- Thank you for your input Moodsformoderns. As you can see in the following paragraph I did follow your line of understanding of the legal term "fair comment":
- Now - following the established definition of “Fair Comment” - that does not “qualify” the statement “antisemitic” opposed to what the article (that you found) says:
- “But in 1980, the Supreme Court of New York agreed with the ADL that the publications of LaRouche's U.S. Labor Party could be qualified as anti-Semitic.... “
- While all of this is strictly of topic, it indicates that the definition of “fair comment” or “qualified” for the ADL are different than the definitions we know. This should be investigated.
- “Judge Michael Dontzin of the New York Supreme Court ruled that: 'Upon consideration of the voluminous evidence presented to the court, it is clear that ADL's characterization of plaintiffs as anti-Semitic constitutes fair comment. Plaintiffs have continuously expressed highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith and have connected them with plaintiffs' critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.'”
- This points out that the common law defence “fair comment” was acceptable to the Judge. If anything it would be the definition of “Fair Comment” that could be in question here.
- Following the citation what happened was that the defendends had the oppinion that expressing “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith...” and connecting these views with “...critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies.' ” is anti-Semitic.
- Since there was evidence presented to the court that there were statements by the plaintivc that were highly critical in the described manner and since the plaintive could not prove that the statements by the defendend were made with “actual malice” the defense of “fair comment” was granted.
- So the court ruled about granting the defense “fair comment” not about the question if expressing “critical views on Zionism, Zionists, Mid-East foreign policy and international monetary policies in connection with “highly critical views about prominent Jewish figures, families and organizations, such as ADL and B'nai Brith” qualifies you as an anti-semite.
- In other words not the interpretation of the facts was disputed but if the facts themselfs were false or not. Interpretation of facts (or expression of fact based oppinions) is a matter of free speech as long as it is a matter or person of public interest.
- It is unfortunate that the words “Fair Comment” are so easely missinterpreted. But a simple sentence added to the relevant paragraph will make things clearer for the reader.
- And here is the understanding of "fair comment" of Mr.Berlet before he changed the wikipedia article "fair comment" (how he understands "fair comment" today is not quite clear - see above):
- "(...) There are times whan a claim about a public figure is so outrageous and false that the protection of "fair comment" concerning a criticism of a public figure is transcended. The judge ruled that LaRouche was not able to show the claim of antisemitism was so outrageous and false that "fair comment" was not a protection. (...) --Cberlet 15:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)"
- I hope I could clear things up for you. It should also be noticed that the paragraph is still as Mr. Berlet left him some months ago. I will soon make changes that reflect the legal nature of the words "fair comment".
Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy?
On October 18, Sean Black removed the word "obsessively" from the section called "Women and Feminism," with the memo "Rm POV word." On the same day, Cberlet put it back, with the memo "Restored word expressing opinion of critics." The following day, I went back to the Sean Black version, because his point seemed reasonable to me. I put as a memo "Who are these critics? Cite sources please." Minutes later, Cberlet put "obsessively" back, with the rather flippant memo, "or we could simply reinsert the word obsessively." What's going on here? As I understand it, the use of neutral language, and the citing of sources, are official Misplaced Pages policy. I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy?
--80.74.131.252 01:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- Try actually reading the article before making a (false) complaint. I did not reinsert the word "obsessively," I added quoted text with a cite to a published article. --Cberlet 02:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- To answer your question, yes he controls this article. A gang of several adminstrators goes around and blocks articles and blocks editors whenever someone tries to stop the views of Chip Berlet or his High Times colleague Dennis King from being the sole views represented on LaRouche. The only discussion they are willing to engage in is making threats and snide, rude comments. They don't even read the comments posted by editors who don't belong to their narrow out-of-the-mainstream POV clique. Cognition 20:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that you have responded to my request for a source by adding yet another quote from Chip Berlet. Aren't you just quoting yourself? It seems like you have an axe to grind. Also, another section of anonymous opinions that I removed with a request for a source was simply re-added by Snowspinner, with no source provided. At the top of this talk page it says:
- "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:
- If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
- If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
- If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
Again I ask, is the way that this article is being handled consistant with Misplaced Pages policy? --80.74.131.252 15:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Chip Berlet is, it seems to me, a leading critic of LaRouche, so there is nothing wrong with quoting him as a critic of LaRouche. (Note: I am referring to quoting published works by him, rather than his work on wikipedia per se). john k 16:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. Chip Berlet is one of the sources any of us would add to this article, so whether he or someone else adds that material is irrelevant. Editors are allowed to quote and refer to their own published work, so long as it's relevant, notable, published by a credible publisher, and referred to in neutral way. SlimVirgin 17:13, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- I also agree, but that's because Chip Berlet leads the cabal, and the mind control chip he implanted in my brain makes me agree. Snowspinner 17:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- It's probably not mind control chips. But when it comes to explaining the conduct of the Dennis King/High Times crowd, it might be the dope. Cognition 19:42, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I also agree, but that's because Chip Berlet leads the cabal, and the mind control chip he implanted in my brain makes me agree. Snowspinner 17:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
- Which you're not supposed to realize. Now you'll have to be re-programmed. SlimVirgin 00:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's all true but one should take care not to privilege Chip as an editor. He still has to follow the rules (I'm not saying he hasn't). Chip should take care as well to recognise that he has a clear bias in this area, although I recognise that in this company asking that editors have an awareness of their own biases is going to fall on deaf ears. -- Grace Note.
Snowspinner's joke is funny. But that doesn't excuse him for putting in a quote, in quotation marks, with no source cited.
It seems to me that Lyndon LaRouche is not stingy with his opinions, he will talk to anyone who will listen. There are thousands of articles by him on the internet. But author/editor Chip Berlet says that he knows an anonymous person who says that LaRouche has opinions about the anus and the vagina, yadda yadda yadda, that have never been published, and he puts this in an encyclopedia article. This is not encyclopedia writing, this is tabloid journalism, and there is too much of it in this article, which is why I am putting up the announcement of disputed neutrality. --80.74.131.252 15:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think a NPOV tag is appropriate for this - perhaps factual accuracy, or better yet, unverified. Snowspinner 02:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- It is a quote from a published report. That's what matters. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.--Cberlet 13:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
As far as I have been able to find out, no such ideas have ever been published by LaRouche, and this is supposed to be an article to inform people about LaRouche's views. I don't think this article is neutral under Misplaced Pages policy. I found that an example of things to be avoided at Misplaced Pages:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." I found seven examples of this in the article, usually with very inflammatory accusations. The readers of this article ought to know who is making these accusations. Also, there is one case where a critic other than Chip Berlet is identified, and that critic is Jean Hardisty. However, when I followed the link to Political Research Associates, I learned that she is a close collaborator with Chip Berlet. So it looks more and more like all the criticism in this article comes from a close knit group. There are other critics of LaRouche, like Michael Rubin and Robert Bartley, who are well known, but their opinions are not included in this article. I searched Google news for Chip Berlet and only got one hit. Again, this does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia article; it should verifiably reflect broad based, main stream opinion, not the special theory of one person or group.--80.74.131.252 15:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- Google news isn't the place for news on Chip Berlet. Try articles related to the marijuana High Times subculture. Or far-left extremist outfits like the Communist Party. Or the Misplaced Pages arbitration case brought against him by User:Rangerdude-- a libertarian and no supporter of LaRouche-- for aggressive POV waring. That being said, Chip Berlet is NOT mainstream. In fact, the views of LaRouche-- in the tradition of Franklin, Hamilton, Clay, Lincoln, FDR, MLK, et al, are the kinds of views that resonate much more strongly among most hard-working, moral American families than Berlet's far-left and pro-drug legalization agenda. Cognition 20:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- If it is OK to cite Michael Rubin writing about LaRouche on the online Frontpage website, it is OK to cite Chip Berlet writing in a published report from Political Research Associates. Do you honestly think that bean-counting hits on Google News is serious research? I am happy to delete what I posted and replace it with the word "obsessive." This is an article about LaRouche, not an ad for for his views. Critical views are appropriate in an encyclopedia. --Cberlet 15:44, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
As the person who initially removed "obsessively", I'd like to say that I'm pleased with that bit as it is now- It's well cited, and clarified as the view of a prominent critic (Berlet). I'm in favor of removing the NPOV tag.--Sean Black | Talk 22:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
- On reflection, you were right to take the word out. Cites are always better than POV-sounding words. :-)--Cberlet 22:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I put the NPOV announcement there because I saw too many anonymous opinions attributed to "critics," which is against Misplaced Pages policy as I understand it. I am in favor of there being criticism in the article, but anonymous criticism makes it look like propaganda.
Here are the opinions that I think should be attributed. I don't see why the authors of the article wouldn't want to simply put the attributions in. Then the article would be fine, and I would be in favor of removing the announcement.
- "Several critics of LaRouche argue that his ideas about economics are not original and are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck; and the corporatism of Italy under Benito Mussolini, Spain under Francisco Franco, and Portugal under Antonio Salazar."
- "As for moving from the left to the right, historically a number of fascists started out as socialists, and critics argue this is the case with LaRouche."
- "According to his critics, LaRouche's personal egotism is a significant force driving his politics."
- "LaRouche's critics claim he is a "disguised anti-Semite," in that he takes the classical anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and substitutes the word "Zionist" for the word "Jew", and ascribes the classical anti-Semite's caricature of the evil, scheming Jew to particular, named, Jews and groups of Jews, rather than to the Jews as a whole."
- "His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset."
- You're conflating criticizing the ADL with anti-Semitism, which is a technique to distort the truth. LaRouche has many Jewish associates and supporters. I am Jewish myself, by the way. LaRouche supports an independent Jewish state. He is a supporter of Israel and an admirer of true Israeli patriots like Ben Guriorn and Rabin. LaRouche opposes the murderous clique surrounding fascist terrorists, though, like Jabotinsky, Begin, Shamir, and Sharon, whom he considers true enemies of the Jewish people, because they are the ones breeding anti-Semitism by fooling people with their lie that they somehow represent the Jewish and Israeli people. Cognition 20:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- "What LaRouche supporters see as praising classic culture, LaRouche critics see as a bias against non-White, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities."
I also have two questions for Chip Berlet regarding the sourcing of quotes attributed to LaRouche.
- The description of the "Chinese culture" quote does not seem to match the quote that it is describing. It seems to me that LaRouche is attacking the Maoists by saying that they reject Western culture as in favor of pre-revolutionary culture. The Misplaced Pages article says that LaRouche is condemning China's pre-revolutionary culture, which seems to be wrong. There is a missing quote mark that further confuses things.
- The quote about the "ghetto mother" is attributed in such a way as it looks like it was published. I went to Chip's web site and looked at it, and it looks like a type written or mimeograph page. The attribution should somehow indicate where it actually came from. And as in the case of your "anus" quote, don't you think Chip that if your theory really is strong, you could find an example to prove it that LaRouche actually published? It seems you are trying to prove your point with gossip. --80.74.131.252 00:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Gossip? Nice cheap shot. And totally false. All of these questions have been answered repeatedly. And the editors here have summarized the published work of a number of LaRouche critics. You need to do some research and homework before raising the questions yet again, when they have been answered repeatedly. For example, the ghetto mothe quote is from a published document issued by the LaRouche group, which you would have known if you had spent a few minutes actually reading the relevant material. And, just in case you are not aware, anonymous questions on LaRouche pages generally do not get a lot of sympathy, because of a history of abuses by LaRouche supporters. --Cberlet 02:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- What a farce. Even if the comment were his, it doesn't tell us anything. It's possible to pick anything out of context in order to distort the truth when an author has written so much and given so many lectures as LaRouche. (It's safe to say that every month LaRouche typically writes more content for scientific and economic publications than most Misplaced Pages editors have ever read in their entire lives.) This is a classic technique known to the professional propaganist. Cognition 20:02, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Gossip? Nice cheap shot. And totally false. All of these questions have been answered repeatedly. And the editors here have summarized the published work of a number of LaRouche critics. You need to do some research and homework before raising the questions yet again, when they have been answered repeatedly. For example, the ghetto mothe quote is from a published document issued by the LaRouche group, which you would have known if you had spent a few minutes actually reading the relevant material. And, just in case you are not aware, anonymous questions on LaRouche pages generally do not get a lot of sympathy, because of a history of abuses by LaRouche supporters. --Cberlet 02:16, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I am not looking for sympathy. I am pointing out what seem to me to be deviations from Misplaced Pages policy, as stated in Misplaced Pages:Cite sources and ]. That's all. --80.74.131.252 15:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I am wondering why it is taking so long to get a reply to my question about the anonymous opinions. Snowspinner, when I took out the unsourced quote "His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination,"", it only took you 2 minutes to put it back in. Why is it taking you so long to explain why you think this is justified under Misplaced Pages policy?
--80.74.131.252 21:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Totally disputed/original research
I see than an editor has added the "totally dipsuted" and "original research" tags to this article. Can we please have the specific problems with this article which warrant those tags? Please note that published material by Berlet does not count as original research. Which factual matters are in dispute? Thanks, -Willmcw 21:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I read Misplaced Pages:No original research and I found that it says this: ""Original research refers to theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any unpublished interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas ..." It seems to me then that the numerous anonymous opinions that I have pointed out must also be considered original research, because we have no way of establishing that they have been published in a reputable publication. If the authors would provide sources for these opinions there would be no problem.
- PS Cognition please do not put more rebuttals to the anonymous quotes in my list. Those criticisms may be valid or invalid but the main point is that they are anonymous.
- I appreciate the answer, but you are not the editor who added the tags. That editor needs to state his reasons. -Willmcw 19:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- I've removed the original research tag, as the only thing cited was Berlet's works, and I think everybody agrees that it's not OR.--Sean Black | Talk 02:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure. The Original Research page says "Original research refers to theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any unpublished interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas" and some of Chip Berlet's arguments appear on his web site only, like the part where he says that when LaRouche attacks the policy of Maoism he is also attacking ancient China culture. But mainly I think that all the anonymous opinions which cannot be verified must be original research.--80.74.131.252 16:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- This statement is simply false and distorted. Some of my harshest criticism of LaRouche appear in the book I co-wrote, Right-Wing Populism in America. The study I wrote with Bellman was published as a printed report. Summaries of widely-held claims appearing as published comments that LaRouche is a neofascist, cult leader, antisemite, sexist, racist, and lunatic are appropriate. There is a difference between a legitimate summary and an "anonymous" claim. That LaRouiche is a convicted crook is a matter of public record.--Cberlet 16:25, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- Exactly. Chip's a pubished author, a prominent critic, and widely regarded as an expert in the field, so therefore it does not qualify as original research.--Sean|Black 21:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- It would be original research for Chip to add the material himself. I assume he has not done so, thus making the tag patently absurd. Phil Sandifer 22:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
- I try not to add my own material to Wiki pages, but do it rarely when there are no readily available sources on an obscure topic; and when someone pops onto a page and claims that a particular claim already posted is either false or not cited and thus should be removed. That's what I have tended to do on the LaRouche pages. Periodically their supporters show up and delete material, claiming it is not cited or that it is false. Several times I have had to post images of pages from LaRouche publications at www.publiceye.org to prove that a particular quote is real and not taken out of context.--Cberlet 22:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me but I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that the anonymous opinions in this article are justified under Misplaced Pages rules? I went and read the article called "Chip Berlet." It seems that Chip Berlet has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. LaRouche too has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. However in the Misplaced Pages article on Chip Berlet each criticism is carefully attributed. There are no inflammatory accusations with no source to verify. Why should the article on Political views of LaRouche not be written to the same standard of quality? I don't see why the authors of this article would be unwilling to simply add sources for the anonymous quotes I listed on this page. --80.74.131.252 02:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Please identify what you think are "anonymous opinions". Virtually everything in the article is sourced, from Berlet, to LaRouche himself, and everything in between. I really don't think that repeatedly making vague accusations of original research solves anything.--Sean|Black 02:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- There are numerous sources cited on this page, and many of them track back directly to a LaRouche or LaRouchite publication. While I am controversial at times, my byline has appeared in the New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, and Des Moines Register. I have written for a number of scholarly journals and edited books. LaRouche, on the other hand, has been published primarily by his cohort of groveling syncophants.--Cberlet 02:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yep. I'm removing the OR tag.--Sean|Black 02:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I have listed them once before on this page. Here they are again. They cannot be verified.
- "Several critics of LaRouche argue that his ideas about economics are not original and are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck; and the corporatism of Italy under Benito Mussolini, Spain under Francisco Franco, and Portugal under Antonio Salazar."
- "As for moving from the left to the right, historically a number of fascists started out as socialists, and critics argue this is the case with LaRouche."
- "According to his critics, LaRouche's personal egotism is a significant force driving his politics."
- "LaRouche's critics claim he is a "disguised anti-Semite," in that he takes the classical anti-Semitic conspiracy theory and substitutes the word "Zionist" for the word "Jew", and ascribes the classical anti-Semite's caricature of the evil, scheming Jew to particular, named, Jews and groups of Jews, rather than to the Jews as a whole."
- "His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset."
- "What LaRouche supporters see as praising classic culture, LaRouche critics see as a bias against non-White, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities."
--80.74.131.252 16:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hmmm. You may have a point there. I'll see what I can do.--Sean|Black 22:02, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- I looked. Please read the article again, as all of your quotes are cited.--Sean|Black 22:36, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
- Sean has gone to the trouble to check the claims of lack of sourcing. I think it is s serious issue that the anonymous critic apparently does not even bother to read the text carefully enough to see that the claims of lack of citation are--to be blunt--bogus.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cberlet (talk • contribs) 03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks, Chip. I invite anyone else to review the article, and the disputed quotes above, to ensure that it's accurate and sourced.--Sean|Black 03:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, forgot to sign. A bit tired.--Cberlet 04:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- No problem. Happens to the best of us :)!--Sean|Black 04:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I am mystified that you would insist that they are cited. For example:
- His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," although he has also referred to the ADL as the "FBI's private asset."
Who are these "critics"? They are not named. What is the source for the quote "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," ? No publication is mentioned.
In each case where "critics" are mentioned in my list the critics are unindentified. Perhaps you don't understand what I am asking. If highly inflammatory accusations are being made, the reader should know who is making them. I am asking that the authors of the article identify the "critics."
This is the correct thing to do under Misplaced Pages policy. An example of an undesirable Weasel Term at at Misplaced Pages:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." --80.74.131.252 16:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- Arguing with a conpiracy theorist is like trying to toilet train a badger. It annoys the badger, and you get covered in crap.--Cberlet 17:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- There's no need to insult this person. He or she seems to make a reasonable request. If you follow the link to "avoid weasel terms" you will read the following:
- A weasel term (or weasel words) is a phrase that hides bias in a statement by attributing an opinion to anonymous sources. Weasel terms give a statement the force of authority without letting the reader decide if the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without a weasel term, it lacks neutral point of view; either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.
- This seems to fit the aforemention list of statements like a glove. Therefore the POV notice should stay until those statements are removed, or the critics are identified. --NathanDW 04:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- As I already said, they are. Read the whole article, and don't pick one sentence from a well sourced paragraph to support your viewpoint.--Sean|Black 22:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
- Sean, I did in fact read read your posts, along with all the others, before adding one of my own. If you know the identities of the critics in the examples cited, please add them to the article and that will go a long way toward solving the neutrality problem. I realize that the names of critics such as Berlet, King and Lyons are mentioned in connection with other opinions or quotes, but the opinions mentioned on the list above are anonymous. I also think that it is inappropriate for you to decide all on your own that the dispute over neutrality has been resolved, so I would like to ask you to refrain from deleting the notice until matters are settled. --NathanDW 18:58, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I see that Cberlet has provided an attribution for one of the anonymous opinions. That is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I have looked at a variety of dispute notices and I am posting "neutrality disputed" on this article, because the remaining anonymous quotes suggest bias under the guideline of "avoid weasel terms." Snowspinner, if you believe that this is the wrong notice, I would appreciate it if you would suggest an alternative, rather than deleting it with a flippant comment. --NathanDW 18:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Cberlet and Snowspinner have had plenty of time to provide citations for the anonymous opinions. Cberlet did provide a citation for one of them. If they do not want to provide citations for the other opinions, they should be removed. There is plenty of well-sourced criticism of LaRouche available, and I will substitute properly sourced criticism if the citations cannot be found for the unsourced criticism. --NathanDW 02:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for your patience. Cberlet and others have had another call upon their time recently due to an ArbCom case. If you have properly sourced criticisms that are noteworthy then go ahead and add them. The removal of whatever unsourced criticisms remain can be handled as a separate issue. Cheers, -Willmcw 09:34, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Sean Black, I am being patient, but I am not abandoning my request for neutrality, so please do not remove the announcement again until this has been worked out. --NathanDW 16:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I read the articles on Misplaced Pages policy carefully before I attempted to make any edits. Does anyone else do this? Yesterday editor SlimVirgin deleted the neutrality disputed announcement from "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," without participating in the discussion on the talk page. If that editor had read the talk page, it would have been clear that there were serious reasons for the neutrality dispute. Then SlimVirgin simply deleted criticism from the "Chip Berlet" article, also without participating in the talk page. This seems like it could be considered biased editing.
Willmcw told me that I should put material about the John Train Salon in this article, so I will. --NathanDW 06:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- Note to BirdsOfFire: In several instances on various LaRouche-related pages you have called for cites and facts when they already exist, in some cases on the same page, just lower in the article. It is appropriate to demand cites. It is not appropriate to demand cites when they already exist.--Cberlet 18:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
LaRouche's Conspiracy
More details on Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy theories from a www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_924_lar_mozart.html Fidelio artical on Mozart, and wlym.com/PDF-77-85/CAM7811.pdf an old Campaigner issue which seem to suggest that this conspiracy predates Aristotle, back into Egypt and Sumeria (though, it is possible that the Aristotlians refined these ideas). Also, the British Empiricists are supposedly an extension of the Venetian Dynasties (which ultimately links them to the Roman Empire).
He also has a unique perspective on the Freemasonic conspiracy, in which Continental Masonry (the "true" Freemasons) where and probably still are at war with the Anglo Masons (well duh). This means that he has made distinctions between the Masonic orders, this is rare amongst conspiracy theorists (who tend to over generalize).
There are two things I do dissagree with him on. First (though I do not have assertive evidence for these preposals): His adherence to pure rationality (See: Continental Rationalism) states that ideas can emerge purely without perception. I am not sure if this is wholly possible (birthing somebody in a sensory depravation tank could only reveal whether or not this is), though there is good evidence from remote viewing and other forms of ESP and intuition that could indeed suggest an objective Pleroma.
Secondly: As a Christian, and somebody who has studied evil/sin (one and the same, simply means malfunction, or "foul ball"), their is a little problem concerning the dichotemy between the spiritual and the material. I agree on Gnosticism being incorrect in seeing the Spiritual and the Physical as inherantly incongruent (remember, Gnosticism is the religious cult based on Platonism in which our substantial universe is at odds with The Form of Good). I agree that inherantly and ideally the pragmatic world an extension of the idealic and are mostly one and the same (this would be Panentheism). However, LaRouche ignores Christianity's most basic tennent, being that man (and the universe he lives in) has been estranged from God. This universe is in danger of dying out and man with it unless he accepts God's assistance (which requires humility, since it is bassically admitting inherant incompetance and dependancy, which is particularl hard for males since this has a catrating effect). And this is not merely a Biblical assertion. Any sight of evil in this world will varify this (particularly in hospitals, prisons, nature shows/safari, and traveling freakshows). So while I agree with LaRouche in principle on this, I must dissagree with him that that is presently so (and the Bible is relevant, since he professes Christianity).
Otherwise though, when I first read one of his pamphletes (Children of Satan) alongside another pamphlet dealing with industry and a trip to India (I believe this is strategic, showing him to be Politically/Fiscally Far left and Socially Far Right, where they respectively count) was extraordinary, I have never seen anything like it before. I was struck by the insight of those articles (these where things I had, myself, suspected myself, but lacked the vocabulary or evidence to express it). IdeArchos 02:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comment, but the purpose of this page is not to discuss LaRouche's ideas in the abstract. Rather, it is to discuss this article about his ideas. If there is any specific detail of the article you'd like to discuss, please do so. There are a number of forums elsewhere to discuss LaRouche and his ideas. Thanks, -Will Beback 05:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/13197.html is an intersting forum on various aspects of LaRouche's movement. -Will Beback 07:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
- That was rather considerate of you, thanks very much, looks like a good place.
IdeArchos 23:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Queen involved in drug trade
I have carefully read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and I ask other editors to do the same. It says that statements which are not properly verified may be removed by any editor, especially if the article is about a living person. This article is one of several that make the claim that LaRouche says the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade. The only acceptable verification for this claim is a quote from LaRouche. Cberlet has attempted to use articles that he himself wrote as a source for this claim, but those articles also do not offer any documentation. If you say that LaRouche said it, you must demonstrate that LaRouche said it.
LaRouche has said many controversial things. I began reading Misplaced Pages some months ago because I was puzzled by things I read in his pamphlets. However, I am now more puzzled, because the Misplaced Pages articles seem to focus more on things that Chip Berlet claims that he said, but for which no evidence is presented. Isn't LaRouche controversial enough without embellishment by his critics? --NathanDW 16:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- Here is a published cite:
- "Most of the 22 active and retired government and military officials interviewed said that they have been wary of speaking with the LaRouche associates.
- "It may seem far-fetched that a group that says that Walter F. Mondale is a Soviet secret police "agent of influence" and that the queen of England is involved in international dope-dealing could be "useful" to top federal government officials.
- "But a number of government officials say much of the group's intelligence is accurate. The LaRouche outfit has had more than 100 intelligence operatives working for it at times, and copies the government in its information-gathering operation, ex-members and other knowledgeable sources said."
- John Mintz, 1985, "Some Officials Find Intelligence Network 'Useful'," Washington Post, January 15, online at: www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/cult/larouche/larou1.htm
- "But a number of government officials say much of the group's intelligence is accurate. The LaRouche outfit has had more than 100 intelligence operatives working for it at times, and copies the government in its information-gathering operation, ex-members and other knowledgeable sources said."
- --Cberlet 18:03, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
John Mintz saying that they believe it is no different than you saying they believe it. If a viewpoint is being attributed to LaRouche and/or his supporters, there must be a quote from LaRouche and/or his supporters. If no such quote exists -- and there are libraries of quotes from LaRouche, you have one yourself -- then we are simply looking at some critics maliciously circulating or repeating a false rumor. --NathanDW 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- Does not matter. Mintz is a legitimate reporter at a mainstream daily newspaper. The charge appears in print. LaRouche is a convicted felon and crackpot with a long history of lying. Compare the sources. The claim meets Wiki source requirements. --Cberlet 03:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hertzberg and LaRouche
I removed Hertzberg from the list of Jewish leaders LaRouche "dialogues with." While it is true that Hertzberg was interviewed in EIR, he has since disavowed any support for LaRouche and is deeply disturbed by LaRouche's extremist and possibly anti-semitic views. This is my first edit on Misplaced Pages, so be gentle. BrevisLux 21:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Now I Remember
Actually, I did want something specific to mention (but forgot along the way). I wanted more concentration on LaRouche's Venitian/Roman/Egyptian claims, since according to him, this is where the whole British oligarchy emerged from. It was really a matter of emphasis (and the fact is that there is some mention of this in the article, though not enough to really show his conspiracy theory in depth). The Gnostic stuff shows what he considers the main problems with his enemies' views (basically, he feels that pagan materialism and Gnostic Manicheism hold a common view that the physical and metaphysical worlds are ireconcilable and thus have nothing to do with the other (thus, justifying their immorality).
Both of these where mainly intended for the "Politics" section, mainly for clerification into what his whole ideology and the nature of the conspiracy. Basically, it is not merely the British.
Again thanks
IdeArchos 03:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Original Research revisited
Hello. I came here as a reader who was looking for critical analysis on LaRouche and his beliefs. I'm in no way a LaRouche supporter. I'm simply looking for information. What I've found here at this article is troubling. The fact that so many of the external links go to the website of Chip Berlet is quite distrubing. What's more disturbing is that many of the links to his site aren't included as a citation of what the views of LaRouche's critics are, but rather as a verification of what LaRouche's own views allegedly are. (Those sort citations should be made directly to LaRouche's own work or at least to a reputable news source that at least attempts to present issues with a neutral tone.) And the fact that Mr. Berlet has been quoted in some mainstream media articles does not mean that anything that he or his organization publishes becomes a reputable news and information source. What's even more disturbing is the fact that Mr. Berlet himself has been extensively editing this article. This allows him to use Misplaced Pages - with its large reader-base and its appearance of neutrality - as a mouth piece and soapbox to influence a much larger audience than his no-so-well-known website would be able to without Misplaced Pages. What's perhaps most disturbing is that - judging form the discussions on this and other talk pages - these issues have been raised repeatidly for quite some time now but little seems to have changed. Mr. Berlet apparently has the support of Slim Virgin and some other infulential people at Misplaced Pages, so he's been allowed to continue the practice of doing orginial research, publishing it on his own blog, and then including it here at Misplaced Pages. This situation needs to be honestly and openly addressed by the broader Misplaced Pages community - with people weighing in who don't have much in the way of prior association with either camp.
As for this article, I think it needs to be pretty much re-written. The resulting article will likely be a whole lot shorter if it is limited to more mainstream soruces. Neither Berlet and his allies' publications, nor LaRouche's are reputable news and information soruces, so citations to either should be kept at a minimum and limited to a verification of the *opinions* of both LaRouche and his critics. Facts should all be cited to mainstream media sources. Given that LaRouche is most often ignored by the mainstream media, there will probably be less extensive coverage, but that's ok. Misplaced Pages's coverage of individuals and their views should be proportionate to their relative notability. And while LaRouche certainly has some noteriety as an excentric fringe personality, he ranks pretty low on the notability scale compared to many, many others in American politics - most of whom have much less extensive coverage on Misplaced Pages. The best way to maintain Misplaced Pages's credibility, and to prevent these articles from being uesed as soapboxes by LaRouche's supporters *or* his opponents, is to limit their scope to what can be reasonably included under an honest interpretation of both the letter and the spirit of Misplaced Pages's "No Original Research" policy. AnonIPuser 20:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS - I look forward to responses from people who can honestly claim some real detachment on these issues. AnonIPuser 20:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- I came to Misplaced Pages because I have been exposed to LaRouche's ideas and I find them obscure and overly full of difficult historical analogies -- but what I found here is just what you describe. Not helpful explanation about LaRouche, but all kinds of theories from Chip Berlet that seem to have very little to do with LaRouche's actual ideas. It seems like Berlet is reluctant to attack LaRouche for LaRouche's actual ideas, so he pretends that LaRouche is some sort of right-wing populist and attacks him for that. This is not very convincing to me, and it also casts doubt on the reliability of Misplaced Pages as a source of objective info. --NathanDW 20:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- By the way, all of the LaRouche articles are like this one. --NathanDW 20:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- The book I cowrote with Matthew N. Lyons on Right-Wing Populism in America was published by a major publisher: Guilford Press. That the publisher allowed the section on LaRouche to be published on the website of Political Research Associates hardly means that it only appeared on a "blog." The same is true with the report co-authored with Joel Bellman, a respected journalist, Lyndon LaRouche: Fascism Wrapped in an American Flag. This report was published in print form by Political Research Associates. Many of the cites on this and related pages track back to the PRA website because for months supporters of LaRouche claimed I was misrepresenting LaRouche's own views, and I was forced to scan in several key documents and post them on the PRA website. I find it unfortunate that I am repeatedly subjected to vicious derogatory comments about my professional work outside of Misplaced Pages, and face the constant attempt to conflate my Misplaced Pages editing with nasty and demeaning claims that question my inegrity as a journalist and scholar. These claims may be coated in sugary pseudo-polite language, but they are false and reprehensible personal attacks nontheless. Major scholarly publishers, mainstream newspapers (including the New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, and Des Moines Register), and several print encyclopedias find my work to be professional and informative. Ask me to defend my claims and provide cites, but please stop the nasty personal attacks.--Cberlet 20:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- The only person I see making a nasty personal attack right now is you, Mr. Berlet. I have said nothing about you as an individual, rather I have criticized your editing practices here. "I was forced to scan in several key documents and post them on the PRA website." Nobody "forced" you to do that. But when you did that, you were carrying out original research. And that's fine for your own website, but not for Misplaced Pages. If one of the "mainstream newspapers (including the New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, and Des Moines Register)" had reported specifically about you scanning those documents and verifying the alleged quotes, then that could be included and cited. Also, the fact that an article was "published in print form by Political Research Associates" doesn't really mean a whole lot. All it means is that your organization paid to have your words applied in toner on some paper. That doesn't mean that your essay became a mainstream information source. One more point for now - One thing that I'm really curious about is if your research is really so notable, howcome it doesn't naturally find its way into Misplaced Pages on its own? Most notable writers and theorists don't spend considerable ammounts of their time editing Misplaced Pages - for the simple reason that anyone who's very notable will have an audience for their statements and ideas without having to post it themselves on Misplaced Pages. As such, they find it much more efficient to spend their time writing and speaking - knowing that they can rely on the mainstream media and others to publicize their ideas for them. AnonIPuser 22:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- I repeat: please stop the nasty personal attacks.--Cberlet 01:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This article should present LaRouche's ideals only. Critics can be placed in Critics of at the end in links. It should not be used by Cberlet or anyone, left or right to debate his views. FACTS, that is all that is important here for his political views. God knows, this man, is constantly being attacked here based on Berlet and Company's analysis alone; without outside (of PRA) analysis of Berlet and his motivations counterbalancing this. For example, the biography on LaRouche should not be a smear campaign against the man. This is an encyclopedia, not a political website. Every statement by him or about him does not beed explanation to the contrary. Critics of his biography, or especially here can be placed in the cites or links section or in a brief section at the bottom. Let's make this an honorable site and not an attack site on people and their beliefs. --Northmeister 21:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, let's back up here. If AnonIPuser, Northmeister, NathanDW, and/or anyone else could tell us what specific problems you have with the article, and how you think they can be fixed, that would be very helpful.--Sean Black 23:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- We've been through this before with LaRouche supporters and I daresay we'll go through it again. AnonIPuser, of course the research organization Cberlet works for pays to have his articles published, just as the New York Times pays to have its reporters articles published. The important point is that he is a known researcher who has been published by a number of research and news organizations, including the one he currently works for, which makes him a reputable source for Misplaced Pages; and in addition, he is known as an expert on Lyndon LaRouche. He has not engaged in original research that I have ever seen, and your post above shows you haven't understood our NOR policy. So please, if you have particular sentences within this article you would like to question, post them here, but if you continue to attack individual contributors, you'll be ignored (by me, anyway), and possibly blocked. SlimVirgin 01:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin and Cberlet always respond to any criticism of their methods by accusing you of being a LaRouche supporter. It's like Bush accusing all his critics of being pro terrorist. --NathanDW 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- Your http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/NathanDW contributions have nothing to do with why we might think that, of course. SlimVirgin 02:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, please take a look at my contributions. The only things I have ever ADDED to Misplaced Pages are some material on Daniel O. Graham, because I know something about him, and this criticism to the Chip Berlet article: "Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation."www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm"
- Otherwise, I have simply responded to things I saw in the Lyndon LaRouche articles that violate Misplaced Pages Policy (which I have read.) This includes:
- Opinions attributed to anonymous sources, or Weasel Terms (see Avoid Weasel Terms)
- Quotes taken out of context or "spun"
- Improper citations (such as in Jeremiah Duggan, where Cberlet put inaccurate "summaries" cited to sources which said something completely different)
- This does not make me a "LaRouche supporter." If makes me an opponent of propaganda and a supporter of Misplaced Pages policies. --NathanDW 01:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- I've read what has gone on before and am quite sure that those who established this site would not be to pleased with the way it is used to discredit people for insisting that an article that is suppose to be about Lyndon LaRouche's political ideas be about THAT and from multiple sources not just PRA. PRA is the same group that has also called other prominent persons 'names' and taken quotes out of context, mixing them up with Nazis, Fascists, and even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite. This group is not exactly credible, especially if your going to judge Lyndon LaRouche not credible enough on historic matter. I would suggest instead of jumping the gun on these things you read the history behind Berlet and company and their smear campaign against certain individuals who propose a certain view or oppose a certain view. Much of their work comes close to being not only questionable but downright slander and liable to the extreme. As to your above statement, one just because someone is interested in particular subjects gives no credence to call them a supporter of anyone or thing. Two even if NathanDW is a LaRouche supporter, that makes him no different than someone being a Bush, Perot, or what-ever supporter. All political people have supporters, usually for ideas they hold. To discredit someone for being a supporter without judging their contributions based on MERIT of those contributions is wrong. Now the NOR policy. The Conspiracism page completely violates that policy. I would like to know your full affiliation and just how you became an administrator in the first place. To actively seek out and attempt to destroy the material of certain persons over and over again and use this site to forward political agendas is not only wrong but against policy. You have a history of this as well as others I've been reading about. I became interested in this whole mess when I was accused of being a LaRouche supporter just for questioning the poorly done producerism page (which has conflicting definitions of producerism and is a neologism that traces either to Berlet himself or Fazio) and for edits I made on other pages. I would like you to know that if persons such as yourself or others are going to make false allegations, then your going to have to show proof of this; and indicate why this matters at all. The MATERIAL matters...is it factual or is it not. Material from Chip Berlet, especially pertaining to this page is suspect, read your own policies. --Northmeister 02:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- From Northmeister: "even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite." This claim is either based on inferior research or is simply an outright lie. Never happened. See: User_talk:Cberlet#Red-baiting_Lie_Article.21 Apologies are optional.--Cberlet 02:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- When I am wrong I admit it. It was over SPLC which your links and links from there show the controversy. The point I make above I stand by though from everything I've read from you, I agree with their analysis. --Northmeister 03:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- From Northmeister: "even calling David Horowitz an Anti-Semite." This claim is either based on inferior research or is simply an outright lie. Never happened. See: User_talk:Cberlet#Red-baiting_Lie_Article.21 Apologies are optional.--Cberlet 02:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, again: Let's calm down our rhetoric. If you have specific complaints about the article, not the contributors, please list them here. Otherwise this just a flamewar that I will remove in due course.--Sean Black 02:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have complaints Sean, but if I list them then I will only be attacked once again for doing so. My concern is mainly authenticity and multiple sources and the structure of this article. This article should be about beliefs that are POLITICAL, not beliefs that are personal to LaRouche or about out of context statements made that are not official beliefs. This should only be about those beliefs. Links for Critics of these beliefs should be listed. I'll start there. But like I said, the same tactic as was used above on NathanDW has been used on me...thu calling me a LaRouche supporter in an attempt to rid my edits (I am not associated with that organization, though I know of them and their work on history and economics is competent,) of use, because of the Wiki policy on using LaRouche material; that's despite the fact I never once use such material or said I was affiliated with this group. Lumping into a group I do not belong to is not right, nor is it on anyone. This is a witch-hunt and McCarthyism and I reported these tactics to the Board. --Northmeister 03:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Restoration and why
I restored the version with the above details. It is important first because the said person's including myself all agree as people have before agreed. This article is titled to much toward one particular perspective and using material that is from 'less than reputable sources'. The original questions of the argument are legitimate. I consider deletion of that material akin to covering up the points made. This is not so much an issue over Mr. Berlet, but over a credible encyclopedic article about Mr. LaRouche's political views. The objections to the article listed are well detailed above and in the past. These are legitimate complaints and should be heard...I will repost the most relevant complaints from above, a record needs kept on this witch-hunt going on and the use of Wiki-pedia in this manner. --Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
POINTS concerning this article:
"I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Misplaced Pages policy?"
- "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." -Why is this policy not being enforced? Besides Mr. Berlet and those associated with his books and website, who else concurs with his opinions to make them not fit into the category above?
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
- Republicanism v. Fascism
- Racism or Higher Culture?
- The Brainwashing Incident
- Let's edit them in order
We can do this!--Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)"
- The point of this article is not to critic Mr. LaRouche's politics, but to display them as they are truly represented. The manner and glee in putting together certain parts of this article are not honorable and I question the inclusion of each of those sections as part of this page, they might belong elsewhere, not here.
"except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to by Slim Virgin"
- This is my whole point of contention. Chip Berlet and his 'belief' has no place in this article per above, maybe elsewhere. The point SlimVirgin made is excellent, it is my point. It is appropriate to say "here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to Lyndon LaRouche" This is my issue. Express his political views, no analysis of them. An encyclopedic article should be straight, neutral, and to the point on the issue it deals with.
I will stop here for my points, because the above says it all for me. These are legitimate points about this page and need addressing and not in a manner to discredit the messenger so to speak who brings these things up. I would ask others to put their contentions down straightly as I have done. I expect the above questions to be answered fairly. --Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wish to also add each of the points made from PubliceEye website or those associated be backed up with other sources not associated with that website. Further the stuff on Gays on down needs to be deleted, as it is smear and contains nasty stuff like attributing that his wife left him so he became anti-feminist. This is POV and it is a nasty smear. This is not fit, nor the stuff below as it presently is written. Just provide FACTS of his political beliefs, no analysis of his beliefs. Let Berlet do that on his website, which can be provided as a link in a Critics of link section. The Fascism stuff needs reworking too, to start. --Northmeister 05:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- To answer your questions: Yes, Chip Berlet and Cberlet are the same person. Berlet is a foremost expert on the topic, and we're fortunate to have his input. We allow adherents and detractors to edit articles, and there is no problem so long as each editor follows policies on NPOV, NOR, sock puppetes, etc. In this instance, there is no reason to believe that Berlet does not represent the mainstream view of the subject. Outside of controlled media there is no discernible positive publicity about the subject. Regarding your other issues, if LaRouche has had significant policies on gays or AIDS then this article should cover them. Some folks have complained about the censorship of LaRouche's theories here, but this is the primary article that covers them. Let's not omit anything that needs to be here that we can fit in. -Will Beback 09:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- I don't mind Mr. Berlet's input; but the points he makes are not mainstream. He is associated with a group the PRA, which is a political watchdog group that takes things 'out of context' and attempts to label people. If this article or any with Mr. Berlet's contributions are to be balanced...there is a need for other sources to back what he has to say up. Mr. Berlet has been criticised and represents a fringe view. The definition given by the founder of a minority opinion applies to him. He has attacked Fulani, Perot, Buchanan, Horowitz in addition to LaRouche. His group is organized with that purpose in mind. The website is no different if not worse than LaRouches website and has come under increasing criticism for it's McCarthy like tactics against individuals on the left (especially) who decide to work with people on the right (a noble thing to achieve results, ie. the Constitutional Convention, all Peace Treaties ever signed etc.) in compromise over areas of agreement. Such individuals working together, such as Fulani and Buchanan in 2000, does not mean those individuals share common belief on everything, but they shared a common belief on the Reform Party stances; taking out of context statements, putting them in a ill-gotten context, and then linking all these individuals with the tyrannical and oppressive philosophies of Nazism and Fascism is their tactic. This is not proper for Misplaced Pages and Mr. Berlet is the only one (and his PRA associates) who seem interested in doing this. Without further backup from credible sources other than Mr. Berlet (who represents a fringe view) then it is inappropriate per wiki policies to quote him alone or to cite him or those at PubliceEye or PRA or associated sites; especially on a page of someone he is engaged in smear campaign against. That applies also to his philosophy pertaining to Buchanan and others he and PRA attack. I'm ok with his citations as long as other citations are used outside of websites or books associated with his organization; and as long as the LaRouche, Buchanan, Perot and other persons he attacks are allowed to indicate their citations pertaining to this subject. --Northmeister 15:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- You're right, of course - Berlet's views are not mainstream, because they are the only well-researched views to speak of on the subject. The problem is that the subject is a crackpot conspiracy theorist who has attracted a cult of followers, and so, really, no views on the subject, including the subject's own, can be considered mainstream. What Berlet's views are, on the other hand, is researched, and they are vastly more mainstream than anything LaRouche has ever said and will ever say. Phil Sandifer 22:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- I don't care to debate whether this person is right or that one is more right, that's not my point. I am asking that the wiki policy on a non-mainstream small minority (of one and a few associated with the one at PRA) be enforced. Also the above statement is your opinion, pure and simple and I am not debating opinions. I've read some of Chip's stuff since coming here due to being accused of being a LaRouche supporter and that whole mess and I stand by my assertions of his credibility. But that is really not my point, nor should it be. Debating who is more mainstream or not? I don't wish to do that. Just enforce the policy of wikipedia and be fair and honest. This page in particular should reflect LaRouche's political views as he has stated them, there doesn't need to be analysis of them by a critic of one or a few (that violates policy), just present the views and let the reader be informed. In the links section, present links from critics to Mr. Berlet's site to allow the reader to be informed of Chip's assertions and PRA's assertions. This is how neutral is done. Either enforce Wiki policy on this (I've already contacted the board of Wikimedia on this because of my concern to fairness and accuracy) or take my above advice and do it fairly. Let's not make wikipedia anyones ground or debate's over politics. Just report and the reader will decide. --Northmeister 01:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know what policies you've been reading, but none that I recognize. Nowhere does it say that a subject's views must be repeated verbatim without criticism. In fact, WP:V says quite the opposite:
- Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
- ources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities.
- elf-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. (Executive Intelligence Review counts as self-published as do the LaRouche websites, because he appears to have full editorial control.)
- Self-published sources and other published sources of dubious reliability may be used as sources in articles about themselves ... so long as the information is notable, not unduly self-aggrandizing, and not contradicted by other published sources (my emphasis).
- So in fact, we've probably included more from LaRouche himself in these articles that we had to, given that the words "unduly self-aggrandizing" and "contradicted by other published sources" could be LaRouche's middle names. SlimVirgin 01:41, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know what policies you've been reading, but none that I recognize. Nowhere does it say that a subject's views must be repeated verbatim without criticism. In fact, WP:V says quite the opposite:
- I don't care to debate whether this person is right or that one is more right, that's not my point. I am asking that the wiki policy on a non-mainstream small minority (of one and a few associated with the one at PRA) be enforced. Also the above statement is your opinion, pure and simple and I am not debating opinions. I've read some of Chip's stuff since coming here due to being accused of being a LaRouche supporter and that whole mess and I stand by my assertions of his credibility. But that is really not my point, nor should it be. Debating who is more mainstream or not? I don't wish to do that. Just enforce the policy of wikipedia and be fair and honest. This page in particular should reflect LaRouche's political views as he has stated them, there doesn't need to be analysis of them by a critic of one or a few (that violates policy), just present the views and let the reader be informed. In the links section, present links from critics to Mr. Berlet's site to allow the reader to be informed of Chip's assertions and PRA's assertions. This is how neutral is done. Either enforce Wiki policy on this (I've already contacted the board of Wikimedia on this because of my concern to fairness and accuracy) or take my above advice and do it fairly. Let's not make wikipedia anyones ground or debate's over politics. Just report and the reader will decide. --Northmeister 01:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- You're right, of course - Berlet's views are not mainstream, because they are the only well-researched views to speak of on the subject. The problem is that the subject is a crackpot conspiracy theorist who has attracted a cult of followers, and so, really, no views on the subject, including the subject's own, can be considered mainstream. What Berlet's views are, on the other hand, is researched, and they are vastly more mainstream than anything LaRouche has ever said and will ever say. Phil Sandifer 22:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- Bluntly put, if Berlet's views are not mainstream enough or notable enough to be in this article, then this article is not mainstream or notable enough to exist. Phil Sandifer 02:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
What I see being raised in this discussion is that Chip Berlet has a poor reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and that PRA should be considered a "self-published source." The policies you are raising (WP:V) apply to him too. Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation." www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm --NathanDW 01:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- Then you see wrongly. Cberlet works for a research company. He does not have full editorial control and is therefore not a self-published source. SlimVirgin 03:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- What errors of fact in my work can you cite? In 35 years of writing published material I have made mistakes, but other than the opinions of a handful of critics (mostly conspiracy theorists and some right-wing zealots) I have seen no evidence to support the claims being made here about the overall integrity and accuracy of my work. I am really tired of having my professional integrity and accuracy attacked by editors who are unable to supply actual evidence.--Cberlet 02:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
You make a good point Phil and SlimVirgin your not neutral in this stuff as is obvious by your name calling above. I don't want this discussion to amount to who is more credible, I want a fair and honest report on Mr. LaRouches views. Such items as on his wife and Mr. Berlet's analysis that he became anti-feminist is outright wrong for this page. There is a difference between stated political views and the reasons behind them. The only man who knows why LaRouche thinks as he does is Mr. LaRouche, not Mr. Berlet or King or anyone else. They've written books about him from the fringe and the stuff added here to 'political' views are from their source material. Lyndon LaRouche was a political candidate for President and deserves mention in one article that is fair and accurate, with links to criticism of him going to his critics websites. The entire LaRouche article does not need to contain point counter point, smear, out of context statements used in a ill-gotten way, or other material from one group of individuals and association. Does that not make sense? I agree there are far to many articles on this website about him, there should be one and it should contain an honest biography and statement of his principles, with a link section to his critics. If a fringe organization such as Mr. Berlet's is allowed to publish their material on wikipedia it is only fair and honest to allow Mr. LaRouche's people to do the same. If PublicEye is allowed as a source, then it is only fair and honest to do the same for the Larouche websites. The most important thing for an encylopedia is accuracy and backup with other sources. So if material is used from either, backup sources from outside of their organization must be provided in lieu of their inclusion. This is fair, balanced, and neutral according to wiki policy. Further, individuals should not be allowed to accuse persons of being what they are not without evidence to the same. I find it very offensive that some of my edits in the past had been taken out claiming they were 'LaRouche ideas'. This type of thing was called a name once and condemned, namely McCarthyism and the man Dwight D. Eisenhower condemned it. That is what Mr. Berlet is engaged in if you go to his site; and that is what is currently going on here at Misplaced Pages. False accusations, stalking of individuals, making accusations as to the authenticity of Mr. LaRouches ideas base on Mr. Berlet and his associates alone. I do hope you see yourselve's for what your doing. This is my last statement on this. I will not edit this page however. I will leave that to people who know Mr. LaRouches ideas politically and who are credible on this subject. SlimVirgin, Will Beback, Cbertlet are all part of a clique out to ruin the reputation of wikipedia in the name of a witch-hunt using Chip Berlet's material alone. I will not participate in this and I CONDEMN it with every being of my SOUL. --Northmeister 02:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
- Enough. If you disrupt this talk page with personal attacks once more, I will block you from editing for 48 hours. Fair warning. If you want to discuss, discuss- but no moreof this.--Sean Black 03:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not anti-semitic to say "the Jew"
It is POV to say that the use of the expression "the Jew" is anti-Semitic. Here is an example of this use that is clearly not anti-Semitic: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html SlimVirgin put back in that LaRouche says "the Jew" which is a usage typical of anti-Semites. I think this is particularly propagandistic on her part, because the article in which LaRouche says it is an article attacking anti-semitism. I am removing that sentence. --NathanDW 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- The example you give above is just another way of saying "the individual Jew": it's a turn of speech. That wasn't how LaRouche meant it. Regardless, I've removed it as original research, but I've retained that he used the expression, because he did. We can let the reader judge how he meant it. SlimVirgin 22:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Mediation
I see that SlimVirgin has deleted all the material about the mediation. I think that this is a questionable decision. Here is the new location: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Twrigley. I have been meaning to say something, and I'll say it here. The problem is that when I or Northmeister or anyone else asks those three editors (Cberlet, Will Beback, SlimVirgin) to comply with Misplaced Pages policies by providing veriable sources, the same thing always happens: stalling, stonewalling, and accusations that anyone who asks for veriable sources is a LaRouche supporter. I have many criticisms of LaRouche, but I don't see that as justification for bad sourcing or propaganda techniques (quotes out of context, "spin.") I also agree that material that is sourced to Chip Berlet should have been published in a mainstream publication. I do agree that PRA is a "fringe" website, and much of what is on it could never possibly appear in a a mainstream publication. --NathanDW 16:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Sources
The two known experts on LaRouche, whether you like it or not, are Chip Berlet and Dennis King, which is why they're under constant attack by LaRouche supporters. SlimVirgin 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- NathanDW, keep in mind what is happening. Right now your under 'surveillance' by these people "Hmmmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=BirdsOfFire&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=NathanDW&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Herschelkrustofsky&offset=0&limit=500, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions&target=Northmeister&offset=0&limit=500,Something amiss?--Cberlet 02:10, 6 March 2006 (UTC)" which is un-wikipedia like; they continue to insist on a reading of Arbcom decisions against the wishes of Mr. Jimbo Wales "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." among other statements he has made concerning targeting people who hold certain views; they continue to disrupt any article associated with Lyndon LaRouche or they think is associated with him (evidence of unified small group with a purpose and mission of ill-repute and disruption);they have been involved in Arbcom rulings in the past brought by several editors against their tactics;they are associated with Mr. Chip Berlet;they continue to assert Chip Berlet and Dennis King are the only persons of knowledge regarding Mr. LaRouche despite the evidence that such said individuals and those associated have run a constant smear campaign against not only LaRouche but the Republican Party, the Reform Party, David Horowitz, Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, Fulani among others;their assertion that these two said individuals material be used (despite being a very small minority opinion and very much slanted) is like asserting that Marx be used as the only credible source for discussion of Capitalism -absurd and fraught with deception. In the end, I tried to mediate this case and SlimVirgin refused mediation. I never intended to edit this article but to defend editors who would, from the same sort of treatment I have received since arriving at Misplaced Pages..a McCarthy like treatment that is not honorable nor according to wikipedia rules. That said, my advice is to continue with your efforts, back yourself up with evidence, and work with those who will work with you. Be fair, honest, and to the point. These tactics of theirs will be exposed for what they are since their actions speak as loud as their words do. --Northmeister 17:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Why don't you name another third-party expert on LaRouche that we can use as another source, if you feel Berlet and King aren't enough? SlimVirgin 18:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Daniel Brandt has done objective research on LaRouche. You can check it out at www.namebase.org. I don't think too many people think that King and Berlet are objective researchers. They are more like the media version of Mafia hitmen. If anyone has any illusions they should check out this article: www.larouchepub.com/exon/exon_add1_train.html --BirdsOfFire 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Erm, that article was written from a pro-LaRouche point of view, by a supporter who has no journalistic or acedemic credibilty that I can see. So that's not a reliable source on King and Berlet's reliablity.--Sean Black 23:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Daniel Brandt has done objective research on LaRouche. You can check it out at www.namebase.org. I don't think too many people think that King and Berlet are objective researchers. They are more like the media version of Mafia hitmen. If anyone has any illusions they should check out this article: www.larouchepub.com/exon/exon_add1_train.html --BirdsOfFire 16:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am not the one upholding material from a source in question for being a 'very minority view' that is not holding to consensus here. The burden is not upon I but upon editors who add material to an article. I question only the authenticity of Mr. Berlet's views in his books in lieu of the history of himself and Mr. LaRouche. I have no problem with the use of such said material if it is backed up with published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him. I make this request considering the very 'fringe' nature of PRA and their associated sites and persons. It is a fair request to protect the reputation of wikipedia from being used a political launchpad for anyone, including LaRouche people. --Northmeister 18:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- Then please, by all means suggest some "published and credible academic sources outside of Mr. Berlet, Mr. King and those associated with him," who are experts on LaRouche. But if, as you say, the "burden is not upon but upon editors who add material ..." then I suggest you leave it up to those editors, and as you're not here as an editor of the article, perhaps you could stop taking up the whole talk page with your complaints? SlimVirgin 19:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- I do leave it to those editors who have added material cited to Mr. Berlet, King and associates alone. If those editors can't provide sources outside of the stated individuals and associations in question for their 'fringe' nature, then that material needs to be removed until such said individuals provide citations outside of PRA and related sites or associations. If such citations are provided then it is legitimate for inclusion. I also petition to have this article moved to the Lyndon LaRouche biography, as Mr. LaRouche, although controversial does not warrant several articles here at Misplaced Pages per his influence upon American society or the world community. --Northmeister 02:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- This is nonsense. The material cited has been published. Find reputable published sources and edit text. Complaining on this page in endless circles is a waste of time.--Cberlet 02:14, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- You are right, that it is a waste of time. Surely, you have sources outside of your own material that you've used to gather evidence for your books. I am interested in those sources. The reason for interest is because I find it hard to accept your research because it is not mainstream. All I need is sources added to this article which indicates outside collaboration and support of your theory about LaRouche and the quote you provide. It is not unreasonable to ask for those. In all likely-hood you have them if you've done credible research, in which case you can provide them and the matter would be closed. Any material from credible newspaper's, magazines, other published books, or from the source of your information would help to discern the accuracy of your conclusions. To base an article, that is so negative against an individual in parts, upon your assumptions and conclusions alone is not only un-scientific but is morally wrong. If someone is out there to back up what you say, let the community know, indicate the source of the material beyond your published works. Many published works exist, and the best can point to examples of other academics and published sources concerning the subject matter at hand. What is at hand here is your accusations of fascism, anti-woman ideas, and so forth of Mr. LaRouche which belong in merit if there is credible evidence for this, but not particularly in his political views article but in his biography and with outside research. All I ask is confirmation of what you say. I am no advocate for the man and did not know of him until wikipedia and my experiences here. That said, my native sense of justice cannot ignore that much of the material on LaRouche here at Misplaced Pages is from one source and associates of that source and from none other; particularly regarding a persons motivations and honor. Let us have sources and let this matter rest. --Northmeister 02:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
<--------I have read LaRouchite publications on a regular basis since 1975. I have interviewed scores of former members. I have interviewed dozens of critics of LaRouche. I have attended events and heard LaRouche speak in person. I gathered information from a wide vaiety of sources. Then I wrote articles and book chapters that were published. I have watched videos of LaRouche speeches. I read their websites. I study and write about fascism, conspiracism, antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and right-wing populism. What matters is that I did not self-published these articles and book chapters. They are in print, from whence they can be cited on Misplaced Pages. Much material that is damning to LaRouche on Misplaced Pages was produced as a result of LaRouche defenders claiming I or some other editor had misquoted LaRouche or taken his quotes out of context. This is not true. Either 1) edit using Wiki guidelines, 2) suggest an alternative wording for a sentence or paragraph backed by reputable published cites, or 3) stop wasting all of our time with vague complaints that are little more than personal attacks on me and my research. Edit or stop complaining. Please!--Cberlet 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- All right then. I accept your statements above on a good faith basis. I have no intention of editing as I have said before. I wish you and the others to be cordial with those who do wish to edit this page and allow room for reason. I have had my say and will write no more about this. I ask that you extend the same sort of consideration I've given you to NathanDW and others in the future. That is all I ask. Thank You. --Northmeister 05:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I found out about the Alexa test (Misplaced Pages:Google_test#Alexa_test) which is supposed to help decide whether a website is a suitable source. I checked the Political Research Associates on the Alexa site www.alexa.com/data/details/?url=www.publiceye.org and it seems that this should not be considered a suitable source. --NathanDW 16:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- The page you are referring to covers whether a website is notable enough to have an article, in the absence of other information. It does not concern whether an organizatoin that has a website is sufficient to user as a reliable source. That is covered by Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. -Will Beback 21:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You are right. I checked that myself. Seems to me that there is a lot of stuff used by Political research that should not be. They should not be used because they do not have a high rating compared to EIR. --IAMthatIAM 16:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- That's not the way things work around here. Nice try. -Will Beback 22:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
- Time to remove the flag.--Cberlet 22:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Anti-semitism and other criticisms
I think Misplaced Pages is in danger of showing a structural bias in the way it distributes accusations and counter-accusations about people across their respective entries. Most of the criticisms of LaRouche, which basically seem to me to boil down to slurs, smears and vague innuendo and insinuation, backed, if by anything, with tenuous quotes, should be briefly summarized in Larouche's article and fully documented in the entries' of the respective authors of those criticisms.
As it is, entries can be "philibustered" if a few extremely partisan editors show up and start demanding that every single, pedantic claim of theirs is inserted for "balance". Eventually these claims become the "debate" surrounding the subject, and this debate takes precedence to the subject itself.
There really is not a SINGLE piece of evidence in the article for any categorically anti-semitic statement made by Larouche, just vague innuendo. Concepts like "classical theories" of anti-semitism are utterly bogus. Debates about the nature of fascism have no intrinsic relevance to the article's subject and it seems to me are basically included, once again, as a form of innuendo.
Misplaced Pages ought to be an encyclopedia, and it can't selectively become a running blog on a political struggle on a message board with quasi-encyclopedic semantics.
- I agree with the above comments, and I note that Chip Berlet, who is both an editor for this article and the single most quoted critic, has removed the long standing "disputed" tag without offering any response to the issues raised, so I will put it back. --172.190.55.189 14:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree -- this is not an agreed-upon position, and I am removing the {{totally disputed}} tag again based on the following: A lot of work was done by a number of editors on the article to create better balance, and it seems to be much improved. If there emerges more of a consensus that the article is still imbalanced, we should put the tag back, but its purpose is to show a large division of opinion -- not that a few people find it imbalanced.
- Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 17:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I'm the author of the first post to this sub thread. I appreciate the need to show a wide division of opinion. I just feel that there's a certain prejudice being manifested against Larouche as a political fringe dweller that I find disturbing. The prejudice is a lower threshold for what constitutes important and reasonable criticism of himself and his opinions. If the critics really are interested in the quality of the encyclopedia and not their own agenda of smearing Larouche, let them create a sub-article for their own views of Larouche's views. For the record, I don't like Larouche. I think he's a demagogue, a dilettante and an irresponsible historical revisionist. Nonetheless I'm interested in his ideas, and I want a reasonable article!
Thankyou --Tarma 2002 18:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- Re-reading the section in question I see that it neutrally reports what two major critics say about him. Later on it neutrally provides information which contradicts their criticism. Do you think that we should omit the info entirely? LaRouche's positions are often described by himself or his followers in a complicated or indirect manner, and they have changed over the decades. -Will Beback 20:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- I think that it is very dubious to describe them as "major critics." They have a small, cult-like following among LaRouche-haters, but no major presence in the media, or academic credentials. If I am not mistaken, neither of them has graduated from college. There is criticism of LaRouche in the mainstream media, but it does not reflect these oddball theories that are given so much weight at Misplaced Pages. --NathanDW 01:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Are there more major critics of LaRouche then Berlet and King? If so then please name them. -Will Beback 04:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Robert L. Bartley, for example. Pulitzer prize winner. --NathanDW 15:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Bartley also describes LaRouche as being anti-Semitic.
- Sometimes it is overt anti-Semitism; with "Children of Satan," Mr. LaRouche has chosen an Aryan-nation phrase for Jews (descendants of Cain, who was the result of Satan seducing Eve, in this perfervid theology). At other times, often in the hands of accusers who are Jewish themselves, it is a charge of secret loyalties. The Jews, or Israel, or the Likud have conspired to take over American foreign policy.
- However that article does not so much criticize LaRouche as it criticizes media outlets for using some of the same concepts and terminology as LaRouche. I also note that the LaRouche movement discounts Bartley just like it discounts Berlet and King, in this case callimg Bartley "an asset of the Mont Pelerin Society" -Will Beback 22:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Bartley also describes LaRouche as being anti-Semitic.
I've always thought there was something weird in the charge that LaRouche is anti-Semitic. For example, in this quote from Bartley, he says it is "overt anti-Semitism" that LaRouche uses the phrase "Children of Satan," but on the cover of the "Children of Satan" pamphlet they had a picture of Donald Rumsfeld, who wasn't Jewish last time I checked. Bartley's argument seems to be the same as that of Berlet in the Misplaced Pages article. Bartley also says (it is difficult to follow his logic) that this sort of overt anti-Semitism can be practiced by Jews. This reminds me of the very first time I ever heard of LaRouche, which was on a TV show Geraldo Rivera used to have back in the '80s. He interviewed a general who called the LaRouche organization "a bunch of anti-Semitic Jews," which I thought at the time was rather unusual. --ManEatingDonut 13:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Dennis King
I am asking people who edit this article to read one chapter from Dennis King's book, which is available on the internet,
Many of the charges LaRouche makes against his opponents seem far-fetched to me, but they are tame compared to Dennis King's diatribe. He makes every conspiracy theory I have ever seen look sober and prudent by comparison. Read the chapter and then tell me why anyone should take this guy seriously, let alone consider him a suitable source for Misplaced Pages. --NathanDW 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Your POV opinion of King has no weight here.--Cberlet 03:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, you don't need to take my word for it. Just read this and draw your own conclusions. --NathanDW 19:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Your POV opinion of King has no weight here on Wiki since King's book was published by a major reputable publisher. A federal jury found that calling LaRouche a "small-time Hitler" was not defamatory.--Cberlet 20:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
POV edits
This page increasingly is being edited to remove cited material and include dubious assertions that serve to sanitize the published material critical of LaRouche. This page needs to be NPOV, not a blog for people who are upset by published criticism of LaRouche.--Cberlet 03:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- As I understand it, it is customary to be specific when making a POV complaint, citing both the offending edits and the relevant Misplaced Pages policy. --ManEatingDonut 07:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- And I will be specific as soon as I finish removing the fawning advertisements and plugs for LaRouche from the other page where we are discussing this.--Cberlet 13:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Two recent edits that were wrongly reverted
On this edit it seems silly and misleading to argue that the edits labeled "general" are any different than the ones labeled "critical." It would be more honest to label the external links either "pro-" or "anti-" LaRouche.
On the John Train edit revert (,) let's not forget (as some editors seem to) that this is an article about the Political Views of Lyndon LaRouche, and we should make an effort to stay current. The LaRouche people are pushing this John Train thing hard -- my sister picked up their pamphlet on campus last week.
I was initially in favor of opening up the article John Train Salon again (instead of a redirect to this article,) but Will Beback/Willmcw/User2004 told me to just put the information in this one (see .) I'm sure that I'm not the only person who is puzzled about why Chip Berlet and Dennis King, two hippy-dippy conspiracy theorists with no academic credentials, suddenly had access to wads of foundation money and media time. Since they are also being given a platform here at Misplaced Pages, this information (which seems to answer the riddle) should not be hidden or suppressed. --NathanDW 20:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I was able to read Talk:John Train Salon, but when I tried to read the article, I got stuck in a loop where I kept getting redirected to Political Views of Lyndon LaRouche. Can someone please tell me how to navigate to the John Train Salon article? Thanks in advance. --ManEatingDonut 22:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- "John Train Salon" was merged into this article. -Will Beback 23:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- You can read the last complete version of the "salon" article by following this link. Very little of it actually made it into the merged version. --172.193.31.88 06:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is appalling that the silly story of a John Train conspiracy is being presented as fact. I was at the two meetings at Train's apartment; they were informational only. No plot was discussed or developed. This is all an artifically generated urban legend and should be dispensed with in one or two sentences with the caveat that no reputable source has confirmed the LaRouchian allegations. Herbert Quinde, author of the affidavit, was not even present at the meetings and has a reputation as a prankster and a source of false information (like when he told the Spanish secret police in the early 1980s where to find Basque terrorists in France--the Spanish sent agents to kidnap totally innocent people as a result). Quinde's main source for the plot, Michael Hudson, was bullshitting Quinde because he was fed up with being harassed by the LaRouchians and thought he'd freak them out with a little disinformation. (The LaRouchians had borrowed money from Hudson and refused to pay him back; when he sued them, they printed articles calling him a KGB agent. With experiences like that does anyone thing Hudson would or should have bothered to give them accurate information?)--Dking 00:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)P.S. Another example of this silliness is the Internet rumor that my travel expenses to the meeting were paid by the John Birch Society. In fact, John Train's apartment was only a few block from my own and I walked to the meetings. I received no monetary compensation for attending from either the JBS, the CPUSA, the CIA, the KGB, little green men or anyone else.--Dking 00:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Chip Berlet already explained over at Talk:John Train Salon that only he got the travel money. But do you deny that you got foundation money for your book? --Tsunami Butler 08:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Tsunami, why do you even ask this? You know perfectly well that in the Acknowledgement section at the end of my book I listed grants from the Smith Richardson Foundation and the Stern Fund. So what? Neither of these grants came from any John Train conspiracy, since such a conspiracy never existed.-- Dking 19:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- I am asking something more specific. The LaRouche website makes this claim about the John Train meeting you attended: "At the meeting, arrangements were also made to have King's planned book on LaRouche financed by the League for Industrial Democracy and by the Smith Richardson Foundation." True or false? They also make this claim: "On Aug. 6, 1984, attorneys for LaRouche depositioned Dennis King. When asked about the circumstances under which he was introduced to Pat Lynch, King was silent. His attorney, Scott McLaughlin, interrupted the deposition, and took King out into the hallway for 20 minutes; when they returned, King claimed he could not recall how he had first met Lynch." Your comment? --Tsunami Butler 21:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- It is not appropriate to use Misplaced Pages to conduct research that would help a convicted felon with a histiory of harassment. If nothing else, it violates WP:OR.--Cberlet 02:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Separate article for criticisms of LaRouche?
I apologise if this point has already been discussed and archived, i had a quick look and didn't see it. I'm wondering whether it would be easier to gain consensus on this and other LaRouche articles (and avoid NPOV tags,mediation,etc) if the analysis and criticisms of LaRouche and his theories were grouped together in a single article dedicated to that purpose. I'm no LaRouche supporter (quite the opposite), and i certainly think that such criticisms are valid and have a place on wikipedia, but i don't think that place is scattered amongst a number of different articles. The title of this article indicates to me that it should explain what the political views of Lyndon LaRouche are, not analyse the validity of those views. I would explect to see such analysis in an article titled 'Criticisms of Lyndon LaRouche' or something similar. Content in this article (and other related articles) could then be replaced by single sentences like "Point X is disputed by critics of LaRouche; see (article link here)" --D Elkington 06:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Personally, I feel much the same as you: that it's be best to consolidate criticism. There are some "Criticisms of ..." articles on controversial figures (though one just got deleted ) and they have the benefit of preventing the main articles from being overwhelmed by criticism. However the approach preferred by the community, and even by Misplaced Pages's founder, is to mix in the criticism so that all matters are covered neutrally and the pros and cons are presented together. See Misplaced Pages:criticism. -Will Beback · † · 10:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link, i hadn't seen that discussion before. I definitely lean more towards the second proposal, i think it gives articles a more encyclopaedic feel. After reading the 'Criticism in a "Reception" or "Reception history" section' guidelines, i wonder if this might be applied to the LaRouche articles. Perhaps 'Analysis of the political views of LaRouche', as this could include both the positive and negative POV. --D Elkington 01:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- There isn't all that much explicit criticism in this article, considering its overall length. However some sections, even when they only quote LaRouche, appear to express a critical point of view. If you'd like to work on improving this article I suggest taking a section at a time. This article was the subject of bitter fights a long time ago, and involved editors were too exhausted to come back and fix things up after the dust settled. That work is long overdue. -Will Beback · † · 06:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Who calls LaRouche a fascist?
In an article pretty much dominated by preposterous sanitization of LaRouche's ideas, the views of his critics are slyly demeaned, like when it was said that LaRouche is called a fascist by "leftwing writers and orators." I changed this to "some critics" since the term has been used in reference to LaRouche by a number of people who are decidedly NOT leftwing, such as the late Senator Moynihan, former Our Town publisher Ed Kayatt (a rockbound Reaganite), former Our Town editor and editorial writer Kalev Pehme, cold warrior Irwin Suall (who called LaRouche a "small-time Hitler") and many American Jewish supporters of Likud, such as the late Howard Adelson. Chip Berlet's conservative nemesis John Rees has referred to LaRouche as a "roast-beef fascist," which is not simply a joke since historically many fascists have either come out of the left, sought alliances there, or merged leftwing and rightwing rhetoric in their mass agitation (by attacking capitalism but saying the bad side of capitalism is a Jewish plot). I also took out the word "orators" since in context it was an obvious nonsense term meant to suggest a lack of credibility without having to prove it.--Dking 22:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Edit was not mine
The history of this article now records that I made an insert in this article today having to do with code language, which was promptly removed by Slim Virgin. I absolutely did not make this edit and have no idea why it is recorded under my name.--Dking 23:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
John Train Salon
I know that Dking and Cberlet have a particular desire to eliminate the John Train material from this article, but this is an article about LaRouche's political views, and LaRouche is the ultimate verifiable source on what those views are. I don't accept SlimVirgin's argument that, in effect, we may not report LaRouche's views on Living Persons. She certainly isn't applying that across the board, or we would delete most of this article. The material deleted is sourced not only to LaRouche, but also an affidavit submitted in court, so I can't accept the idea that it can be deleted to please certain editors. --NathanDW 06:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
- All contentious claims about living persons that are sourced to LaRouche should be removed from this article. Nathan, if you restore any again, it will be a BLP violation. If there's a court document and if it's independent of LaRouche, by all means use it as a source, but you should also find an independent secondary source. Until you have that, you can't add this material. Please read WP:BLP. SlimVirgin 18:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
- I will try to find some outside source for this, but it seems to me that this is an unusual circumstance. This is in a section on "LaRouche's conspiracy theories," so it is not being presented as proven. I don't think your BLP argument applies in this case.
- Also, I note on various talk pages that neither King nor Berlet denies that these meetings took place. They simply claim that it was a normal, innocent gathering of quasi-left-wing activists, deep-pockets right-wing financiers and intelligence operatives. So the facts are not in dispute, as far as I can see-- only the interpretation, which is of course, just another LaRouche conspiracy theory. So, where's the contention? --Tsunami Butler 03:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've worked on this a little, but it seems a bit ridiculous to document a LaRouche conspiracy theory with additional sources. It is not being presented as a widely-shared conspiracy theory, just a LaRouche conspiracy theory, so it doesn't really matter how many people agree with it. As I said, the facts themselves are not in dispute, so SlimVirgin, I would ask you to explain your thinking on this more fully. --Tsunami Butler 03:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
"According to a sworn affidavit..." I guess I could have changed this to 'According to a pdf file of unknown origin on a geocities site...", but I didn't really see the point, so I took it out instead, along with everything that seemed to depend on it. If the point is that the LaRouche orginazition thinks lots of people are conspiring to make them look like loons, I'm not sure how notable that is anyway. Tom Harrison 04:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have replaced that cite with a cite to the affidavit itself, which is provided in the Daniel Brandt article. What is notable about the meetings is the stellar grouping (except for King and Berlet) of persons and organizations that attended. It has COINTELPRO written all over it. --Tsunami Butler 15:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. The use of primary sources alone is also discouraged. Please find a mainstream secondary source for this material, or leave it out. SlimVirgin 15:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- Would you kindly be specific about what you consider to be a "self-published third party source" in this article? --Tsunami Butler 15:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- You used a self-published website as a secondary source, I believe, and an affidavit as a primary source. Others used a LaRouche publication. None of these are reliable sources within the meaning of WP:ATT and WP:BLP. For contentious claims about living persons, you must use the best possible sources, which in this case would mean a mainstream news organization or other publisher. Please decide whether to answer here or on your talk page, but not both, please. SlimVirgin 15:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- You seem to be reluctant to name the source you are objecting to. Is it Daniel Brandt? I have gathered from various Misplaced Pages controversies that you and he don't get along. His organization is no different than Chip Berlet's (in fact, Chip Berlet was once part of his organization) and in fact, there is an organization, whereas Dennis King's website is entirely self-published.
- You used a self-published website as a secondary source, I believe, and an affidavit as a primary source. Others used a LaRouche publication. None of these are reliable sources within the meaning of WP:ATT and WP:BLP. For contentious claims about living persons, you must use the best possible sources, which in this case would mean a mainstream news organization or other publisher. Please decide whether to answer here or on your talk page, but not both, please. SlimVirgin 15:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- Would you kindly be specific about what you consider to be a "self-published third party source" in this article? --Tsunami Butler 15:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- WP:ATT and WP:BLP specifically prohibit the use of self-published third-party sources in support of biographical material about living persons. The use of primary sources alone is also discouraged. Please find a mainstream secondary source for this material, or leave it out. SlimVirgin 15:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- But you still haven't answered what I think is the main question here: we are not talking about "contentious claims about living persons." We are talking about a conspiracy theory of Lyndon LaRouche. You yourself have taken pains to emphasize that he is a conspiracy theorist, and this is an article specifically about his theories. I don't see how you can object to LaRouche as a source for his own theories. --Tsunami Butler 15:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- As a matter of interest, when I ask you to post either here or on my talk page, but not both, why do you continue to post on both?
- Please don't edit further without reading our content policies. That's what they are there for, so that individual editors don't have to explain everything from scratch on every talk page about every issue. SlimVirgin 15:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please. I'm not asking you to explain everything from scratch. I'm asking you to specify which source you are objecting to. --Tsunami Butler 15:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm objecting to all the sources you used. One is a self-published website; one is what looks like a post to the National Review blog; one is a LaRouche publication. Find a mainstream source. If you can't find one, let that tell you something.
- Question: have you read the content policies? SlimVirgin 15:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Questions for SlimVirgin
Let me preface this by saying I have read the content policies, and I think that you have a novel interpretation of BLP. Here are my questions:
1. You say that theories or claims made by LaRouche about living persons may not be sourced to LaRouche publications. Using this interpretation of BLP, do you think that this edit, made two days ago by yourself, should be removed? It refers to a claim made by LaRouche about advisors to the British royal family, and is sourced to a LaRouche publication.
- No, because it doesn't name anyone, and it's clearly absurd. But you could find another source if you prefer. SlimVirgin 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
2. You say that claims about living persons may not be sourced to "self-published third party sources." Are you referring here to Public Information Research, the organization associated with Daniel Brandt?
- No third-party self-published sources are allowed. SlimVirgin 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
3. Do you believe that Public Information Research is in a different category, for the purposes of BLP source citing, than Political Research Associates (Chip Berlet), DennisKing.org (Dennis King), or the Rick A. Ross Institute (Rick Ross)? The LaRouche articles have abundant derogatory material on LaRouche sourced to these latter three websites. Do you think that these articles would conform better to BLP if they were to rely strictly on mainstream sources? --Tsunami Butler 23:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
- Political Research Associates is a research company with employees. As for the other two, I don't know much about them. Perhaps you can do the research and determine whether they're self-published. SlimVirgin 23:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
4. PIR is also a research company with employees. Their home page also indicates that they were incorporated in 1989 and have 501(c)3 status. You haven't actually said whether you think PIR is a "self-published third party source," but given these facts, it seems clear that they are not. Do you agree? --Tsunami Butler 15:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- There are no employees listed at the cited page--Cberlet 18:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The alleged "internal memo" and BLP
As SlimVirgin has pointed out, the standards for sourcing under Biographies of Living Persons are very high. Dubious sourcing is unacceptable. The document attributed to LaRouche is supposed to be an "internal memo." Is there a reliable, mainstream source where LaRouche acknowledges that he wrote this? "High Times" and the "Justice for Jeremiah website" are hardly mainstream sources. --Tsunami Butler 06:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please say which material you're talking about. SlimVirgin 18:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- The two purported quotes from LaRouche which are supposedly from an "internal memo" called "Politics of Male Impotence." Following the cites to Chip Berlet's website, the source is a scanned image of a sheet of typewritten paper. This totally fails the WP:V test, and also runs contrary to the rule that "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" at WP:A. I am reverting this material. --Tsunami Butler 22:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- I am also restoring the NPOV tag -- this article is being used as a vehicle to promote WP:FRINGE theories of Chip Berlet and Dennis King, and needs cleanup to conform to NPOV policy standards. --Tsunami Butler 22:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's not an exceptional claim; LaRouche is well-known for making extreme statements. And Political Research Associates is regarded as a reliable source, and has been accepted as such by the ArbCom. SlimVirgin 22:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- "Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all." --WP:BLP. Are you going to argue that Chip Berlet's website is not partisan? And in this particular case, you have an unusual circumstance: these are quotes that are being attributed to LaRouche. On whose say-so? What person is claiming that LaRouche wrote them, and how would this person be in a position to know? These are unpublished statements. Under BLP, they should go. --Tsunami Butler 22:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- The source is LaRouche himself, and if you read the memo, it's very clearly material from him. Also, as I've told you many times, PRA is regarded as a reliable source for Misplaced Pages, and the ArbCom has supported that. This isn't the place to discuss that decision. Please don't keep tagging the article whenever you find something you don't like.
- Although it's fine to include the quote in terms of its sourcing, I'd question including it as an example of bias against "non-white, non-European, non-patriarchal, non-heterosexual cultures and identities," as we currently do. If you read the whole memo, it appears to be largely misogynist rather than racist, as he rails against German and Italian mothers too. SlimVirgin 23:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- How would you know whether is is LaRouche? If you have some factual basis for saying so, please insert your real name in the article as the person vouching for its authenticity, or better yet, leave it out. As you say, LaRouche is known for making extreme statements. Therefore, what is preventing you, Berlet and King from making your case against him with actual, verifiable quotes? There are no shortage of them on the web, from veriable, LaRouche sources. There should be no need for you to resort to such a dubious source. --Tsunami Butler 01:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- Having taken another look at both "LaRouche" ArbCom cases, I see that they both pre-date the BLP policy. Therefore, I think that it is incorrect for you to assert that the ArbCom has given a blanket blessing to the use of Chip Berlet's website as a source. I think that it should be handled with extreme caution under BLP, especially because it is so often the source of "derogatory" characterizations of living persons. Whereever possible, a mainstream source should be found, and in many cases, such as the one we are discussing, the material should be removed under BLP. Your responsibilities as an Admin should take precedence over your POV in such a situation. --Tsunami Butler 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- Dillin, John. "Lyndon LaRouche has got America's attention now!", Christian Science Monitor (Boston, MA), The Christian Science Publishing Society, 1986-03-27, p. 1. Retrieved on 8 March 2006. - Born to Quaker parents, LaRouche got his political start in the 1940s, when he was a member of the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party. At the time he took the name Lyn Marcus, after Lenin and Marx. Other mainstream sources also mention his use of the name Lyn Marcus. Tom Harrison 02:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- Tsunami Butler, Political Research Associates isn't Chip Berlet's website; it's a professional research organization. SlimVirgin 02:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- Tom, I am aware that LaRouche wrote under the pen name Lyn Marcus. That's in his autobiography. I am questioning whether the image of an unpublished typewritten document of unknown origin that is posted by Chip Berlet on the Political Research Associates website is actually written by LaRouche/Lyn Marcus, and I am also questioning the decision of SlimVirgin and Cberlet to insist upon using such a document as a source for Misplaced Pages, particularly when the number of authentic, verifiable documents attributable to LaRouche numbers in the thousands on the internet alone. --Tsunami Butler 15:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have corrected the cites on this to reflect the fact that it is an unpublished document of questionable authenticity. I won't revert until there has been further discussion. Ultimately this is still a BLP issue -- the BLP policy requires that we use unimpeachable sources. --Tsunami Butler 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- Has anyone from the LaRouche movement questioned the authenticity? SlimVirgin 17:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have no idea. As I understand it, the purpose of WP:BLP is to anticipate and avoid complaints of that nature. I have restored my edits, because the previous format makes it appear as if the article in question was published, which it was not. Regardless of whether LaRouche wrote it, we have a responsibility not to mislead the readers by making it appear as if it were published.
- I have restored the NPOV tag, which has been on this article since I began editing Misplaced Pages last October. SlimVirgin, it was you who unilaterally intervened to change the status quo on this. It ought to be obvious that there are ongoing neutrality disputes about this article. --Tsunami Butler 21:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- You're editing in violation of the ArbCom cases and you've violated 3RR. The material was published by Political Research Associates. Do you deny this?
- If LaRouche has not denied the quotes are his, you're engaged in OR by claiming that there's no evidence they're his.
- As for the tag, there are always going to be POV issues from the perspective of LaRouche followers, but that doesn't mean there are real ones, so don't keep adding the tag. SlimVirgin 23:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I find your interpretation of BLP to be amazingly flexible, depending, of course, on whether the Living Person is someone you like or dislike. Also, could you specify how Ms. Butler is violating an ArbCom decision? --NathanDW 02:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Questions for SlimVirgin
1. I also would like to know how you think I am violating the LaRouche ArbCom decisions. I have read both of them carefully. Please indicate the remedy or remedies you are referring to.
- You're acting to promote LaRouche. SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- This is baloney, and self-serving baloney as well. I am arguing that LaRouche, the subject of this article and others, is merely not exempt from the WP:BLP policy. This does not constitute "promotion of LaRouche." It appears to me that you are acting to exert ownership of these articles to make them a showcase for the esoteric fringe theories of Dennis King and Chip Berlet, both of whom are now editing Misplaced Pages, engaging in self-promotion and excessive self-citing in violation of WP:COI. You have thus far refused to discuss BLP as it applies to the subject of these articles. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Why do you object to identifying the "internal memo" as an unpublished document? By citing it as if it were a published source, you mislead the reader.
- It wasn't unpublished. The part we are quoting was published or we wouldn't be able to quote it. SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- See #3, below. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
3. You ask whether I deny that the material was published by Political Research Associates. No, I don't. That's exactly the point. It should be attributed to PRA, not to LaRouche. I don't care whether the Washington Post has a published account that says that Dennis King says that Chip Berlet says that LaRouche wrote it (and Chip ain't saying where he got this document.) Just because the parson's wife repeats gossip, it doesn't make the gossip more true. Now for my question: why is it that you don't recognize this as a BLP issue?
- We report what published sources say, and we have a published source. As a matter of interest, how do you know it wasn't also published by LaRouche? SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- Because by following the cites, the trail leads to a typewritten document, posted by Chip Berlet at the PRA website. The trail ends there. Where did he get it? Dumpster diving? He doesn't say. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
4. Is it your view that Public Information Research, Inc. is a source that may not be used at Misplaced Pages? If not, why not? I am trying to ascertain whether they have "employees" as opposed to "directors," since Cberlet is raising that as an issue. But where in WP:RS does it make that distinction? --Tsunami Butler 16:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- Do you mean Political Research Associates? They have staff as explained above.
- No, I mean Public Information Research, which has Daniel Brandt on its board of directors. Is it your view that this a source that may not be used at Misplaced Pages? If not, why not? --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've had enough of this back and forth. The material has been correctly sourced, and there's no point in going on about it. SlimVirgin 16:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
- Like it says at the talk of the page, this is a controversial topic and substantial changes to the article must be discussed before being made. I feel like I am having difficulty getting your cooperation in this. --Tsunami Butler 11:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
My questions are entirely legitimate, but instead of answering them, you blanked the page. Please take a deep breath, and then try to edit in a collegial manner. --Tsunami Butler 00:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Neutrality
I see a neutrality dispute here. Does that make me a LaRouche follower? Does it take some special rank or status at Misplaced Pages to add a tag to an article? --Don't lose that number 21:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
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