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Case clerks: Lankiveil (Talk) & L235 (Talk) Drafting arbitrator: DeltaQuad (Talk)

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Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.

S Marshall

I've moved the content I previously wrote here to User:S Marshall/Sandbox because of the notes below. The reason I put it here was to attract discussion, but apparently that's not the done thing. Editors are invited/welcome to comment on it on its talk page if they wish.—S Marshall T/C 07:31, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• A more final version is now on the main /Evidence page.—S Marshall T/C 22:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Why discretionary sanctions have failed

Euryalus asks why discretionary sanctions have failed. The answer is that no uninvolved admin will touch the subject with a barge pole, and I don't blame them. It's all very complicated and entrenched, and those who try are soon overwhelmed.—S Marshall T/C 07:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Johnbod

Johnbod is a very precious thing: a largely uninvolved editor respected, as far as I know, by both sides, who's got some useful knowledge to share. Could Johnbod's evidence please be considered despite its length?

Content dispute

I'm of the view that the content dispute is best settled by the Mediation Committee, and that we should proceed to that as soon as the conduct issues are under control.—S Marshall T/C 16:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

1,500 words

Personally, I have no objection to QuackGuru's request for 1,500 words and 150 diffs of evidence, and I will not need more than 1,000 words myself even if QG's request is granted.—S Marshall T/C 17:20, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Levelledout

I nearly made Levelledout a party to the case, and if he wishes to be a party then I think it's appropriate to make him one.—S Marshall T/C 21:20, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Advocates and shills

Our well is being poisoned by weasels.

There are allegations that an unspecified editor or group of editors is acting as an advocate or industry shill. I often come across this in the topic area, as I said in my opening evidence. As always, this allegation has a great big wide yawning empty space where all the diffs ought to be.

If you're going to talk about advocates and shills, then I do think you need to say who you mean and present your evidence.—S Marshall T/C 22:55, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Re discretionary sanctions, sadly I think you're right re discretionary sanctions. Will flag some suggestions in the workshop when we get to it. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:05, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

DS are only onerous until you get used to them, if you're rational and are "ACTUALLYHERE". They have a tendency to weed out nuts, unconstructive SPAs, trolls, and other disrupters fairly effectively. I don't like to see them imposed, but several years of combat is enough.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  00:53, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

DS haven't been onerous on the page at all, mate, because nobody's showed up to enforce them. They've only been onerous by their absence. Bishonen took a quick look at the time of the last arbcom case and after making a remark about how vague my edit summaries were, she beat a hasty retreat. No more uninvolved admins popped their heads around the door until I complained on AN/I that nobody was willing to intervene, at which time Georgewilliamherbert started to take a look. He didn't do anything for three weeks, at which point I gave up and started an arbcom case. I attach no blame to either of these admins, because I wouldn't be able to unravel it all either ---- but I will say that a lot of the bad-tempered editing and talking past each other that's been going on, has become deep-rooted and entrenched because the community hasn't followed through on the DS. So we've got a dispute that's been inordinately long without resolution and un-policed through most of this time.—S Marshall T/C 09:25, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

SMcCandlish talk response to S Marshall

In reply to your Preliminary Evidence post in reply to my own Preliminary Evidence post: I did not single you out as a paid advocate of the e-cig industry. If you wish to pointedly associate yourself, at ArbCom, with such a perception of your editing patterns, well, that's a bed you're making on your own and probably don't want to climb into. My own comments did not actually have you personally in mind, and I don't recall your own posts in any detail, from the RFC/RM discussion that triggered my weighing in on this RFARB. My main concern was the tendentious denialism against the idea that WP:MEDRS could properly apply to biomedical (vs. societal, legal, etc.) material, e.g. Electronic cigarette aerosol, and the incessant troll-like WP:WIKILAWYERing going on to try to maintain such an anti-MEDRS position. A secondary one is sustained attempts, from the other side, at suppression of therapeutic benefits information to permit only negative health effects information, a debate I observed with perplexity but did not wade into. A tertiary one was disruptive noise-making, like pointless attempts to confuse e-cig aerosol with cigarette smoke.

Regarding QuackGuru: I'm skeptical that QG's behavior would get him site-banned, or even topic-banned except perhaps temporarily. Whether ArbCom wants to ever explicitly say so or not, we all actually know and operate under the more-than-assumption that editors fighting trolls, vandals, COI advocates, and other WP:NOTHERE PoV-warpers are given more leeway (basically per WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:IAR) by the community than those trolls, vandals, etc. – up to a point. Such leeway, in limited senses, can be found "codified" in various places, e.g. at WP:EDITWAR, at WP:VANDAL, at WP:DUCK, etc.; it's not all nudge-nudge-wink-wink. So, I think we're arguing for the same result, but I would clarify that the idea that "behaviour that would get some editors sanctioned is tolerated in others" is a mis-statement of the case; this doesn't have to do with individuals, personalities, or (as you suggest pointedly) entourages. Rather, behaviour that, when it is being used for anti-encyclopedic ends, and perhaps between different good-faith viewpoints, would get editors sanctioned, is tolerated when it is directed in particular against clearly anti-encyclopedic editing. That said, I'm not personally certain all of QG's edits (and edit summaries) fall within that leeway. That's among the things this case will determine, even if's not (or should not be) the main focus. I don't personally get a sense that QG is "obstruct genuine improvements", but I'm also not deeply involved in this topic area, so there's perhaps evidence I have not seen.

But QG is not really among the most problematic editors on this topic. Just see Talk:Electronic cigarette aerosol/Archive 1#Redirect to Cigarette smoke for one of the most mindboggling displays of WP:NOTGETTINGIT and failure of WP:COMPETENCE in WP memory. CFCF's apparent refusal to understand WP:DAB and how disambiguation works on WP, to sustain an incomprehensible and WP:POINTy redirect demand (to confusingly tether e-cigarette aerosols to "cigarette smoke"), is patently disruptive nonsense. I'm hoping this case directly addresses that, since I can think of another place right now where the same pattern is being used. This "If I take enough meritless FUD and noise actions on the talk page, and just never shut up, I should win through attrition" tactic needs to be sealed in a sarcophagus. The same technique was used by a WP:TAGTEAM (not parties to the present dispute) to derail a WP:AT/WP:MOS discussion every time it came up, for over two years; and I can think of many other examples. It's detrimental to consensus formation on the project and it has to stop. CFCF's use of it on this article is as good a "test case" as any.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:34, 4 August 2015 (UTC) Clarified: 16:59, 15 August 2015 (UTC) Updated: 15:04, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk response to RexxS

@RexxS: Re: Also you'll have seen the immediate resort to ad hominem as I predicted: "dishonest" and "claims with little to no merit". – You're right about "dishonest", which actually qualifies as at least a WP:AGF violation, and borders on WP:NPA. But "claims with little to no merit" is a perfectly valid statement of appraisal of an argument (whether you or I agree with the appraisal or not). This is not an idle nitpick; complaints about incivility need to very clearly distinguish between "addressing the content vs. the contributor".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  19:10, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Talk response to Evidence presented by Johnbod

As an on-WP behavioral matter, the conflicting views in the health sector still map to the categories C and D that I outlined; D just needs to be reassessed as those sticking to what the medical search says instead of trying to advance, as a political position, the view that e-cig use must be suppressed (cat. C) on the theory of what might turn out to be medical problems developing from them down the road that could turn out to be worse than cigarettes. Given how unlikely this is, cat. C is still pushing a POV that borders on fringey or at least a "moral panic", while D is the better-sourced approach (except possibly with regard to youth uptake (a socio-legal, not medical issue, and already being addressed by "no sales to minors" laws), no matter which off-WP regulatory establishments it happens to agree with. It's the same analysis we'd apply to any issue; our approach to articles on nanotechnology and artificial intelligence account for doomsayers' views, but do not (per WP:UNDUE) allow them to dominate the articles. @P Walford: This is not an "us vs. them" exercise, but a "where are these problems coming from?" exercise. I haven't alleged bad faith on anyone's part, even COI e-cig industry people, who from their point of view may just be trying to ensure their interests are represented fairly.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  21:07, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Done with evidence

I don't think I have any further input for the evidence page. If my material's too long, I guess a clerk can refactor some of it to the talk page or something. Any questions or issue people want to raise with what I posted I would cover on the talk page, other than I'm amenable to making corrections. I've tried to keep my material as on-point as possible (about behavior not content, and about the import of the underlying issue with external advocacy and COI), so I hope my section will be left as-is and will be useful.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  21:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Chat with Jytdog

I understand that about "advocates", of course, but it's not the behavioral issue I'm getting at. Random hell-bent types are not a programmatic problem, they're weird little fireflies. The advocacy problem we need to concern ourselves with long-term is the organized kind, and it's where the problem with these particular articles are coming from, four spearheads at once: e-cig companies, the "vaper" fanbase, and two opposed camps in the health sector. I agree that here the lone, individually motivated hell-bent types (on any side) are not easily distinguishable from those working on group-organized goals. I just don't see the utility in singling out this editor or that with "see this diff; he's really interested in this topic". Aren't we all unusually interested in certain topics? But I may have misunderstood the import of what you diffed. I did go look at it, and it just seemed to be comments about sources and their authors. How is that unusual or suspicious?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

SMcC post-Preliminary material moved back to Evidence page after being made party

Request for status upgrade

I request to be upgraded to Party status, and to have the 1,500-word limit, so I can re-supply some of the evidence I've already written, above. The 500-word limit is insufficient, and the 1,000 one would probably be as well. I've already written the material and can edit it down to 1,500, without the need to add more. I am party to the dispute, having been involved in trying to work on sourcing at some of those articles and effectively "chased off" by the level of tendentiousness in the topic area (i.e., I feel I have a valid grievance).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  15:04, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Note: Time is fast running out.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  18:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Pinging Euryalus who seems most active in case management on this one.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  18:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok. -- Euryalus (talk) 19:46, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Quick clarification

Hi all,

It appears editors may be confused regarding the procedures of this evidence page. To clarify:

• The archived sections of each evidence section are the preliminary statements posted originally at WP:ARC. They do not count towards the word limits, but they should not be changed in any way.
• Editors should present their evidence on the evidence page proper, not this talk page. This page should be used solely to discuss meta-topics regarding evidence (e.g. requests for extensions of length limits, or requests to hat evidence, or requests to modify evidence after the evidence phase closes, for example). Replies and refutations should also go in evidence, analysis of evidence can go to the Workshop, and drafts of evidence should go in userspace.
• This page does not currently require sectioned discussion; threaded discussion is fine, as long as it falls in the scope stated above.

If anyone has other questions, feel free to ask me or any other clerk or arbitrator. Thanks everyone for your participation in this case. L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 00:11, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, looks like Euryalus has directed below that everything be sectioned. I'll post the necessary notices. L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 06:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Yep, sorry it's been a busy day so was a little slow off the mark in passing this on. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Case management

A couple of quick things:

• This is very much a case about editor conduct, and not content. Past e-cigarette dispute resolution seems to have got a bit lost in discussion of the validity of sources and the science or otherwise of opposing views. In order to keep this case effective it may be necessary to hat or remove contributions that stray into content dispute. If this occurs, then apologies for the inconvenience and please don't consider it a reflection on the WP value of your contribution or the validity of your views.
• Talk page conversations should be sectioned, not threaded, please. This applies to all the case talk pages.
• Private evidence (for example, evidence involving anyone's personal information) should be provided direct to the committee via email. If evidence is sent privately that didn't need to be, the committee is likely to suggest it be posted publicly instead in the interests of transparency. Where an actual allegation is made in private evidence, the committee will where feasible bring it to the attention of the accused in an anonymised way, and give them a chance to respond. This is subject to basic common sense, including whether the information can be credibly anonymised, and whether the allegation has sufficient credibility that a response is required.
• Discretionary sanctions apply to e-cigarette articles, but consensus seems to be that they haven't worked. It would be worthwhile to discuss why not, and what if anything can be done to make them more effective. Views welcome in /Evidence or on this talk page. -- Euryalus (talk) 05:45, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Johnbod, thanks for your evidence but it's almost entirely about content. The outcome of this case needs to be on editor misconduct (if any) that prevents the development of the article or otherwise interferes with the editing environment. For example, your point 2 mentions issues with "one editor" - for this to have substance in the case it would be great if you would say who, and why. -- Euryalus (talk) 14:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I don't believe it is. I make two points: firstly that the medical/public health view is more diverse than some of those who think they are defending realize. The article(s) understate the excitement about the potential of e-cigs for reducing smoking in parts of the medical/public health establishment. Then I criticise the article and the difficulty of editing it. The main reason why the article is as it is these days is User:QuackGuru, who dominates the editing and talk. He spends an enormous amount of time on it, and while always appearing responsive, has a habit of never actually responding on the exact point raised, and pursuing long threads that shoot off at oblique angles, before making changes that rarely meet the points originally raised. I will be more explicit on the name. Johnbod (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Euryalus:, when you say that discussions are sectioned, not threaded, please try to not encourage threaded replies, such as by pinging a non-clerk/arb in a section that doesn't belong to them, unless you spell out specific exemptions to the sectioned discussion rule - it makes it generally easier on us . In this particular situation, what do you want to do with Johnbod and S Marshall's comments, move them into individual sections, keep them there, or something else? L235 (t / c / ping in reply) 18:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
  • i wanted them to respond in their own sections. -- Euryalus (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
    • @S Marshall: thanks. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:01, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• Euryalus, I spent a few days looking at this earlier before the case was filed, and as a rule individual editor behavior on the micro did not jump out as policy violating and on the macro needed subtler tools than the typical Arbcom intervention. I know what you're asking for in the case being taken up and why, and how Arbcom usually works. I don't think it's that simple or a good idea. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog's statement

Status question

I am starting to gather evidence and have never been involved with an accepted arbitration before. I am a "party" or "other"? I believe I am "other". I'm asking so I can abide by the word/dif limits. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 08:39, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If you are going to add substantive evidence, you should be a party to the case. I'll add you to the list, and you can use the larger word limit. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:33, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Concur with above (and sorry it took me awhile to get to your question; unexpected reinstall of Windows required tonight). At the moment you're "other', but if you'd prefer to be a party you can either ask the drafting arbs, or a clerk (who will then ask the drafting arbs for you). Lankiveil 11:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC).

 Done. Happy to remove you if you decide not to add substantive evidence after all, and assuming theres no other reason to leave you in. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

TracyMcClark's section

Sock distruction

QuackGuru

For transparency sake I am making a formal request to go up to 1500 words with 150 diffs. This is a very complex issue involving multiple editors. QuackGuru (talk) 15:26, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: No problems. Also available to any other case party, on request. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I would support this too. ArbCom cases are often mired not in too much material, but in confusion resulting from lack of sufficient material. I've seen this happen several times, and some decisions have been questionable in my view, as a result of removal of or prevention of the introduction of "too much" evidence and sufficiently detailed rationales (even if there is a legitimate interest in occasionally thwarting a disruptive desire to dump a zillion unorganized diffs or pages and pages of ranting).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  17:08, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

After I reach my word limit am I allowed to response to other comments in my own section or after I reach my word limit that is it. QuackGuru (talk) 23:33, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: once you're at the word limit that's it. However, experience suggests there's no need to respond to everyone else's comments - if what someone else says makes it through to the workshop you can respond to it there. If it doesn't make it through to the workshop, then it wasn't considered material to the case. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:50, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Yobol is another involved editor that can be upgraded as an involved party. Yobol, you can request to go up to 1500 words.

I agree with User:SMcCandlish that he can be granted an upgrade. See Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles/Evidence#Request_for_status_upgrade. Since July 2015 he is involved.

User:Euryalus, there is a late surge of comments. While I have reached my word limit, others may want to response to this complex case. I recommend the evidence phase remains open a bit longer. QuackGuru (talk) 18:35, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

SPACKlick

I have no objection to QG's request for more words and diffs. I doubt anyone will actually need that many but I don't see the harm of more evidence. SPACKlick (talk) 17:46, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Levelledout

Word and diff limit

I'm not sure that I see an adequate reason for QuackGuru's request to extend the word and diff limit. The limits obviously exist for good reason and I suspect that many ArbCom cases are complex, so I don't see that as a justification in itself. I'll leave this for the arbs to decide, who will have to read through longer submissions but whatever the case I would request that if an extension is granted, then it be granted to all parties.Levelledout (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Fair point, though extensions are reasonably common. The one granted here is available to all parties on request. -- Euryalus (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Request for status upgrade

As of Jytdog's Status Question, I plan to submit a fair amount of evidence, would it please be possible for my status to be upgraded to "party" of the case?Levelledout (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Pinging clerks and drafting arbs since I've had no reply on this @User:Lankiveil, @User:L235, @User:Euryalus, @User:DGG, @User:Thryduulf Levelledout (talk) 16:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Are you asking only to get a greater evidence length limit, or do you consider yourself involved? Thryduulf (talk) 16:56, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I consider myself as involved as any regular contributor to the topic area, don't know if that makes me involved per se. As stated above I've submitted a previous ArbCom case request on QuackGuru specifically on the topic of e-cigs.Levelledout (talk) 18:14, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Added you as a party. -- Euryalus (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Clarification

When I write my evidence statement, is it sufficient to simply provide a link to my previous ArbCom case request (which contains a considerable amount of evidence) in order for it to be considered as evidence in this one? Or will I need to repost all the diffs separately?Levelledout (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I haven't got time right now to read that link, so I'll respond when I do (if none of my colleagues do so before then). Thryduulf (talk) 16:57, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

You need to write it out again alas. This is to maintain the principle against people simply linking to subpages (and thereby avoiding the evidence word limits altogether). Apologies that this is so. -- Euryalus (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

No problem, can understand why that's the case, thanks for clarifying.Levelledout (talk) 21:05, 14 August 2015 (UTC)