Misplaced Pages

• WP:EEML

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: KnightLago (Talk)  Drafting arbitrators: Coren (Talk) & Newyorkbrad (Talk)

• About arbitrationTalk
• Arbitration policy (CU/OS)
• Guide to arbitration
• Noticeboard + Talk
• Search archived proceedings
• Ban appealsReport

• All open requests
• Case requests
• Clarification and Amendment requests
• Arbitrator motion requests
• Enforcement requests

• Contentious topics (Log)
• General sanctions
• Editor sanctions

• Discuss+
• Contact
• Members
• Procedures
• ElectionsTalk
• History
• Clerks+ Talk
• Clerk procedures
• Conflict of interest reports

• Talk
• StatisticsTalk
• Reports (pre-2016)

• v
• t
• e

The Committee, in passing the motion to open this case, provided explicit direction to all editors participating in this case:

• "Editors are expected to observe appropriate decorum on the case pages and in any other discussion of this incident."
• "Editors are instructed to refrain from disclosing on-wiki the name or other identifying information concerning any editor who does not edit under or disclose on-wiki his or her real-world identity. Any evidence that would have the potential effect of making such a disclosure shall not be posted on-wiki, but shall be e-mailed to the Arbitration Committee. The committee will take appropriate steps to ensure that no editor is sanctioned based on private evidence without an appropriate opportunity to respond to such evidence, while also seeking to ensure that editors' identifying information is not unnecessarily disclosed."
• "All editors, whether or not they are potential parties to the case, are strongly urged to exercise consideration and discretion in dealing both on- and off-wiki with all aspects of this highly sensitive situation. Any behavior that would unnecessarily inflame or widen the dispute should be avoided."

The Clerk for this case is KnightLago (talk · contribs) who will be assisted by non-recused members of the Clerk team in enforcing the above rules. The Clerks will, wherever it deems necessary, refactor and remove statements where they violate the above directions, or where they violate the general standards of decorum and Misplaced Pages policies. The Clerks will, where required for particular egregious or repetitive violations, ban participants from the case pages for an appropriate period of time.

Both the refactoring of statements, and case page bans, that are implemented by the Clerks, can be appealed to the Committee.

If any user requires assistance in submitting private evidence to the Arbitrators in the method requested by Committee (see the second bullet point, above), please contact a member of the Clerks or, alternatively, an Arbitrator directly.

• Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
• New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

• Assume good faith
• Be polite and avoid personal attacks
• Be welcoming to newcomers
• Seek dispute resolution if needed

Statement by Mkativerata

In my view, the current wording ought to be amended for the reasons I, and other uninvolved admins, gave at the most recent AE. I have no opinion on whether the restriction ought to be lifted, other than to re-iterate my comment that if it is not possible to communicate Arbcom's intent in a clearly-worded editing restriction, it may very well be better to have no restriction at all.--Mkativerata (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Re the suggested wording (see PhilKnight). I'm not sure how an article can be the subject of a ethnic, national, etc. dispute. It can only be the subject of an editing dispute that may or may not be borne out of national, ethnic or cultural differences between the editors involved. The term "present-day dispute" might also be overly narrow: surely Arbcom wants to capture battleground venues like Mass killings under Communist regimes: those articles are about past ethnic or national disputes in relation to which there are severepresent academic and editing disputes. I don't mean to be unhelpful -- I've racked my brains to conceive of wording that would do the job Arbcom wants, but a solution may be elusive.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps in the same vein as Deacon's post, I've been quite surprised by the off-wiki emails I receive from active EE editors, some of which are plainly designed to procure blocks of other editors (note Piotrus has not done this; I'm talking about others). I find this quite unacceptable. I think Piotrus would also do well not to make the kind of posts he made to NYB, Shell and Kirill's user talk pages after he was unblocked. I can understand Piotrus was relieved to have been unblocked and grateful for the arbs' intervention, but the messagesshould put their recipients in uncomfortable positions. For the record, I wasn't canvassed by anyone in relation to Piotrus' block or his appeal. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:38, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd only disclose the content of the emails and the identity of their senders if Arbcom asked for them. I'm certainly not going to do so as part of an amendment request related to a different editor entirely. I only do so to illustrate the point about the dangers of off-wiki conduct because it appears from Deacon's post -- and from the comments of one or two admins at the AE appeal -- that editors and admins were being asked off-wiki to "have a look" at the AE appeal. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:13, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Malik Shabazz

I support Piotrus' request that his topic ban be lifted. As recent events have shown, the current situation—in which the topic ban only applies to areas of conflict—is subject to different interpretations among administrators acting in good faith. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

In light of the recent behavior by Deacon of Pndapetzim, both here and at WT:RFARB, I encourage ArbCom to consider sanctioning him. I also encourage ArbCom to consider whether it is appropriate to ban Deacon of Pndapetzim from speaking to, or commenting on, former members of the EEML. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 05:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I see that Skäpperöd has taken a prurient interest in my Talk page and e-mail. I don't know whether to feel flattered or harassed. I'd like to confess.

Several editors had been conspiring in a hidden corner of Misplaced Pages. On March 31, Piotrus sent me an e-mail message asking if I still thought it was a good idea, and who was going to pull the trigger. I don't read my e-mail often, so he left me a Talk page message. The subject of our top-secret cabal discussion? A request to amend the EEML decision that allowed Piotrus to communicate with other members of WP:POLAND regarding housekeeping matters. That's the whole juicy story. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 02:00, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Timotheus Canens

What Mkativerata said. Apparently, what arbcom seems to mean by "articles about national, ethnic, or cultural disputes" seems to be "article about, or subject to, present-day national, ethnic, or cultural disputes". As far as I know (perhaps, not being a native speaker, I have missed some special features of the English language?), that's not what that phrase usually means in normal English (even the Misplaced Pages dialect of it). I incorporate by reference my comments in the AE thread Mkativerata linked to. T. Canens (talk) 15:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Novickas

I've been conversing with P. about this at his talk page . My points were that I wouldn't have found it hard to stay well inside the newer topic ban restriction; that the Adam Mickiewicz article falls well inside the line and that describing his hypothetical minor edit to that article as a last-moment realization that he was about to edit an ethnic dispute article was misleading; that he remains free to bring up proposed-but possibly-problematic edits at the PL noticeboard; and that the various recent AE reports were not beneficial to the community at large. I objected to his statement above "...such reports seem to serve a useful function of identifying disruptive, battleground-minded editors...". and suggested finding a mentor.

He responds by saying that I cannot put myself in his shoes when I say it wouldn't be hard, since I don't contribute as much as he does; that the admins who evaluated the various topic ban AE reports disagreed among themselves, showing that observing the boundary is indeed difficult; and that he would avoid all EE topics instead (presumably if this motion doesn't pass.) He asked for a specific suggestion as to how to rewrite the Adam M. part of this appeal - I haven't got one - and acknowledged he knew this article was the subject of an ethnic dispute.

I would prefer that the topic ban be carefully re-worded rather than lifted. Accompanied by a call for mentor volunteers - maybe mentor isn't quite the right term; just someone he could talk to when he feels a strong inclination to edit these articles. Or he could post them to my talk page, I wouldn't file an AE report. But as things have worked out some of his ventures have resulted in what I consider wikilawyering on his part. IMO we shouldn't be asked to evaluate the accidental-ness of an edit or weigh his blurry-boundary edits against the greater good to Misplaced Pages, and he should demonstrate his readiness to rejoin the community, and his self-control, by sparing us these discussions and disputes for the duration. Novickas (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

So is this OK with you guys - that he rewrote the Stanisław Koniecpolski article today? A Pole who was 'despised in Ukraine'? Sheesh. Novickas (talk) 19:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing unusual in raising questions about impartiality after socializing. The NYTimes wasn't sanctioned for publishing this editorial about Scalia and Cheney . Given the circumstances, she might have expected this issue to come up if she discussed P's amendment two days later. It was not a full recusal.

I note that no one criticized this userfor opposing an amendment last June, mentioning P's history and saying 'evidence of a more profound change of heart' was lacking. I don't see that evidence yet myself. Novickas (talk) 15:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Courcelles

I don't really have an opinion about lifting the restrictions, but something must clearly change here. When three or four admins have one interpretation of what an ArbCom decision means, and the Arbitrators themselves have another interpretation of their words, the wording of the remedy must be considered to be suboptimal. AE matters are, if not the hardest, one of the toughest admin chores we have to do, and this wording makes it just that much harder. Mean what you say- a paragraph of clear restrictions is both easier to follow and easier to enforce than the ambiguous sentence we now have. Courcelles 05:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

I am essentially going to echo the sentiments of the AE admins above. The present situation only invites frivolous AE requests and pointless arguing about what is or what is not an EE dispute. It opens up the door for the many people who are holding a long term grudge against Piotrus - and let's be honest here, we all know that there are some individuals here who are still holding on to 5+ year old grudges and who make a regular appearance at these motions (and don't contribute much to Misplaced Pages besides) - and only encourages the battleground atmosphere that permeates this area. This is not Piotrus' fault, rather it reflects on the folks who seemingly just can't let go.

Either do or don't. And I suggest you "don't" keep the sanctions. None of Piotrus' edits in the past year have been controversial in any way. Except in the way that a bad faith editor can always make a controversy out of nothing, like for example, pretending that minor gnomish edits to articles that have NEVER been a subject of controversy suddenly (after five years of quiet) break the "the letter" of an Arbitration remedy that was actually intended TO GET RID of these kind of onerous restrictions. Usually we call that "wikilawyering" and "battleground behavior". Now, THAT wastes people's time.

Yes, Novickas, is one of these editors and quite, frankly I can't quite understand why Piotrus is even replying to him. Look at the exchange at Piotrus' talk page and tell me that this isn't straight up "baiting a topic banned editor" or, in the words of the directions of the AE page, "poking a caged animal with a stick" - however politely/hypocritically worded Novickas' comments may be. The sanctions on Piotrus were not enough, the purpose of comments such as these -however politely they are worded - are only to try and humiliate Piotrus further, an editor that has done far more for the encyclopedia than any of his critics. This has been going on again and again, every-time this kind of motion has come up in the past months. By this point it's become a form of kitsch.

However much I've disagreed with various people on Misplaced Pages in the past, I've never understood this apparent desire on the part of some to try and not just "win" these perceived battlegrounds but also this constant effort to denigrate, kick while they're down, and humiliate other editors - apparently for some people it's personal and they enjoy that sort of thing. If you want to know why this is a battleground area -that's it right there, however politely these statements are sometimes worded.

For what it's worth, Piotrus would probably disagree with my assessment above since he seems to always believe that for all it's faults Misplaced Pages is a great social experiment, while I'm much more cynical about it (though I recognize the good about Misplaced Pages I also think it's an insanely dysfunctional millieu). Don't hold my own personal negativity against him.

Removing the sanction completely will quiet shit down in the EE area by removing this perverted incentive for battleground warriors to constantly file spurious and pointless requests and allow Piotrus to get back to the simple grunt work (formatting, assessing, writing non controversial content) that no one appreciates anyway. Which is how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work, right? Volunteer Marek  07:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Btw (I can't resist a snide comment here), since Novickas is pretty convinced that "if (he) were in Piotrus' shoes" he'd know how to "stay within the line" (just to spare others the aggravation of having to wikistalk his edits, not that anyone, least of all Novickas, is wikistalking Piotrus' edits of course) and that he is so sure that he "personally would know how to stay well inside the topic ban boundary" (which insinuates that Piotrus hasn't, while in fact Piotrus HAS - crafty how he sneaked that in there, ey?) I say let him show how well he can stay within the bounds of some topic ban. Since he's asking for it, topic ban Novickas from EE topics for a year (for battleground behavior if nothing else), see how well he does at obeying it, and then a year from now, if all goes well, I will offer him my most sincere apologies, write a sonnet in his honor, and bake a complimentary cupcake for his enjoyment, or something. Volunteer Marek  08:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Just for the record I wanna say that I haven't send any block-shopping emails to Mkativerata or any other admin. Based on what's been going on in the past few months, I'm guessing that these emails were sent by the 'anti-EEML' crowd (though this is just a suspicion). In fact I'm wondering who was the intended target here. So for once I support Skapperod's question (though his intentions in asking it leave a lot to be desired). Volunteer Marek  17:17, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Confession by Volunteer Marek

Re Skapperod. Here you go, the whole scoop, nothing left out

The whole horrid story in all gory detail

Since both Shell and Malik have confessed to their unsavory part in all of this I might as well confess too. It's true, Piotrus and I coordinated off wiki in order for Piotrus to "decorate me" with the "bear barnstar" award. This has been in works for months but alas, our nefarious plan has been exposed, with one brilliant stroke by Skapperod . It went down something like this: I emailed Piotrus saying, hey you, how about giving me a barnstar with a bear on it. Piotrus emailed back saying, oooh, that's a good plan, do you think we'll get away with it Then I emailed him again with a message consisting solely of "bwahahahahaha" Then he emailed saying ok, which bear barnstar do you want And I emailed saying the one with the angriest bear possible And he replied good thinking, the angrier the bear in the barnstar the more damage to Misplaced Pages it will cause And I said yes thasrite And he said how about this one? And I said, no angrier! And he said how about this one? And I said, no angrier! And he said this is the best I got And I said ok it'll have to do, but let's get our cabal to photoshop that image up a bit to make the bear look even angrier Months and months of coordination and making the bear barnstar look angry followed. All kinds of auxiliary characters were involved. The conspiracy ran so deep that even a couple members of the Article Rescue Squadron contributed. Finally the angry barnstar was angry enough Piotrus emailed me saying ok we ready to go with the angry bear barnstar And I emailed saying oh crap that bear don't look no angry it look like laughing And Piotrus said it both angry and laughing. You know, it mocking Misplaced Pages And I said oh ok, green light The angry/mocking bear barnstar was shipped across the borders in a sealed freight train to insure utmost secrecy. When it was crossing theAlps there was an unexpected delay due to heavy snow. The plan was almost exposed when an innocent five year old, Bardamu Masthed, began making uncomfortable inquiries But the mountain passes were cleared just in time and the barnstar commenced upon its fated journey. File:Angry bear barnstar crossing the alps.jpg It was while it was being transported down the Nile that we first began to suspect that Skapperod's agents were on our trail. A certain half-Tunisian, half-Livonian, named Dripplenard Aloyzee MacFintz, was booked on the very cruise ship which contained the unmarked crate with the angry/mocking bear barnstar, and throughout the journey expressed suspicious interest in the cargo of the lower deck on which the crate was hidden. The matters came to a head when Mr. MacFintz, in trying to sneak a peak at the contraband ended up releasing the Barnstar which then proceeded to wreck havoc among the ship's crew and passengers. It ran amok, angry, and mocking. It slaughtered the captain and the first mate. It drove the survivors under the deck just as the Egyptian night had fallen. It stalked them through the twisted maze of cargo boxes and ate them one by one. It was death on de Nile. It was like the zombie movie except it was an angry/mocking bear barnstar instead of zombies. Anyway, the barnstar, after it had its fill of mayhem and killing escaped into the deepest regions of Africa. We had to track it through the snows of the twin peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro, by using our undercover social network of an interest group. In our pursuit through the driest sands of Sahara we were once again almost thwarted by Skapperod, when another one of his agents, a Miss Gella Abadonn Checkers, a powerful sorceress summoned up a sand storm which threatened to burry us along with our camels (that's right, we had some camels, or actually CaEEMLs). Thankfully we were rescued by a band of Hyrkonian nomads under the leadership of a wild maned Cimmerian. File:Angry bear barnstar on the nile.JPG In the jungles of Congo we heard rumors that an angry/mocking bear barnstar had established itself as one of the local warlords. It grew powerful and none could stop it because, Skapperod's secret agent #3, Azazello Turbin, had taught it the language of insects, which allowed the barnstar to know everything that was happening in the bush at all times. But such powerful knowledge also came at a terrible price - that of sanity - and by the time we caught up with it it was ill and near death. We placed it on our sloop and set out for home. It died a few nights later after screaming "the horror! the horror!" obviously wracked by overwhelming guilt over our nefarious plan to coordinate the decoration. It was at that point that Piotrus said what we gonna do now our plan looks fail? And then I said there must be something let us not give up And Piotrus said we need a shaman or a monk, from Tibetia And then I emailed and said why need a shaman? Piotrus said we can resurrect the angry/mocking bear barnstar though there will be a price I said I already sold my soul last time around when EEML case was ongoing and all I got for it was an "Abstain" vote from NYBrad I'm all out of soul No, no, Piotrus said, no soul. It'll only be 145.99$ that's the standard rate I said ok I use my credit card but where we get shaman? Piotrus said he was going to find shaman at a meet up That's right, the shaman was Shell and the whole point of the Misplaced Pages Pittsburgh meet up was to resurrect the angry/mocking barnstar. But wait you say? Didn't the meet up take place AFTER the decoration took place. That's right. Don't worry about that. Well... ok I tell you. That was Malik's part in all this. Piotrus wrote Malik hey we need to travel in time to resurrect the angry/mocking bear barnstar Malik said ok I know some people that can help us but they are aliens I said from the outer worlds? And he said yes they know hot to rip the fabric of the space time continuum I said but what if that destroys the universe And then Piotrus just wrote back an email with only "Bwahahahaha" in it And Malik said, it's ok there are always other universes, like de.Wiki So Malik used his other worldly connections as well as the "accumulated, considerable expertise and infrastructure" with an interstellar mafia of aliens, run by a fella named Stupendous Ramiz, to arrange a break in the time space continuum. We were to randezvous at the Remediosconstellation at 6:30 in the after noon, after Piotrus was done with his classes. Something went wrong though and instead of Piotrus traveling into the future he actually wound up in the past. He found himself in Marchof 2009 and he emailed me from the past Hey he said I have a chance to undue everything that happened there will never be an EEML case Using intertemporal email I said that was dangerous But maybe it is worth the risk Piotrus said I can end the list and there won't be no topic bans or outing or harassment But then I got an email from the future (not Piotrus' March 2009 future but the future of today future). The email was from the Deacon of Bildgewater and it only contained the future photograph of Shell and Piotrus at the Pittsburgh meet up. You could see that Shell and Piotrus were both fading from the photograph. I emailed Piotrus in the past You and Shell is fading from a photograph from the future I said You mean from my current future Piotrus asked No I said from the future of the current Huh? You know, when you mess with the past of today you upset the balance of the universe like Malik said So if I end the list and prevent the EEML case from happening I will cease to exist, Piotrus asked? And I said yes thasrite Unfortunately by that time Piotrus had already put his plan to end the mailing list early and prevent the ArbCom case from ever happening into action. His and Shell's image on the photograph from the currents future, which is actually today's past was fading even more. Anyway, he had to fix the intertemporal shifts by participating in various wacky hijinks, riding a skateboard, rewriting a lot of emails that were never sent all by himself from memory, and getting Biophys to go to a prom with Risker. Or something like that I forget the exact story. But it was fixed, the list was outted and the EEML case happened. Then using his "sociological skills for manipulation" Piotrus manipulated the weather into providing him with twenty one point two gigawatts of power necessary to get him to the future's future (er...) He arrived in Pittsburgh even though for me it was still the present which is now the past, and met with Shelly as Skapperod has conclusively proved. There Shell the Shammy resurrected the angry/mocking bear Barnstar But it was brought back, undead, unliving, somewhere in between, like fat free butter. Here is proof. If you look carefully at the angry/mocking bear barnstar you can see a sad, wistful, longing in the bear's eyes (along with the anger and the mocking) as it pines for the immortal life it once had. That's the "came back all wrong" part. File:Angry bear barnstar resurrected.JPG Anyway, there is more to this story, since the angry/mocking/sorrowful bear barnstar still had to be transported from the then-future into the now-past so that Piotrus could put it onto my talk page. This involved a labyrinth, a minotaur, a garden of forking paths and an otherworldly infinite version of the Misplaced Pages where every article that could ever been written already has been written (inf.wiki, they're super inclusionist over there) beginning with the letter Aleph. But in the end, on August 31, 2010, Piotrus successfully "decorated" me, according to our deeply coordinated plan, with the bear barnstar. And we would have gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that pesky kid!

Statement by nihil novi

I agree with the observations and sentiments offered above by Piotrus, Mkativerata, Malik Shabazz, Timotheus Canens, Courcelles, and Volunteer Marek.

Continuation of the ambiguous topic-ban against Piotrus serves no useful purpose. Nihil novi (talk) 10:41, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

I don't think it is worth trying to tweak the language of the restriction. Piotrus's topic ban should just be lifted. It is going to expire on 22 March anyway and maybe this discussion will still be going on then. Discretionary sanctions are available under Digwuren for this topic area so if any ban relaxation turns out to be premature, AE can deal with it. Should the arbs feel they want to keep the ban, they should add a provision for somebody (AE?) to authorize Piotrus to edit a particular article. This would avoid him needing to edit first and then see if he is sanctioned, which is a peculiar system. EdJohnston (talk) 01:59, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Ohconfucius

It seems clear from the evidence and Sysop views above that the 'broadly construed' nature of this topic ban is being used by some editors generally hostile to harass Piotrus, game the system, and create drama. Bearing in mind the lack of demonstrable conflict and controversy on his part, and the imminent expiry of his topic ban, I submit that the risk of disruption from an unbanned Piotrus is minimal. Once the ban is terminated, Sysops and others can get back down to business of creating content and not generating or managing drama.--Ohconfucius 02:27, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Septentrionalis (PMAnderson)

I support relaxation or removal of Piotrus' ban; I have always found him a voice of reason within his faction - and there are equally unreasonable opposing factions. At present, for example, I should like to ask him to reason with an editor (whom I will not yet name) who is going about "enforcing" the Gdanzig decision - under his own set of interpretations - as though no progress had been made since 2005 - but his ban forbids him to intervene. I would prefer to have either Piotrus' assistance in reasoning with this person, or Piotrus' reformulation of his position into something I could live with, to proposing an amendment against this person; but his ban prevents either.

If Adam Mickiewicz is ethnically disputed (as it is), then "article about, or subject to, present-day national, ethnic, or cultural disputes" includes virtually all Eastern European articles - and is therefore a tightening of the present condition.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Deacon of Pndapetzim

Mkativerata had no choice to block after previously letting him away with several violations of his restrictions. We are now searching for a new wording to reflect how NYB wants Piotrus to be 'restricted', since apparently ArbCom messed up with the current wording. I should point out that NYB wanted this a long time ago, but the ArbCom of the past was wiser, resisted NYB's urgings and imposed the original broad restriction on Piotrus. Arbcom later reduced this restriction, but this was a bad decision, for a variety of reasons (fuelling resentment among opponents, boosting the appeal of gaming methodology, inviting more appeals/amendments across the board, and so on).

Now that the reduced restriction has proved lawyerable we want to drop all restrictions? Not sure what the big deal here is supposed to be! Piotrus obviously knows very well what he is not supposed to do, and everyone here ought to know already that if we aren't super-humanly careful in phraseology, he will simply wikilawyer himself out of most AE requests. All arbs should know enough about Piotrus and EEML now to understand and take measures to prevent it. How does capitulating to it help? What does that say about ArbCom?

The previous relaxation of restrictions on Piotrus simply validated old methods and brought the troubles back (so far as it could). Piotrus is a decent content contributor, sure, but he is pressured both by his own ideology and by his 'support network' to become embroiled in nationalist disputes and resort to wiki-gangsterism in areas he has little expertise. Piotrus is a victim who needs saved just as much as his own past and future victims. Being restrained from this area, he contributes productively to fields where he actually possesses expertise and is of benefit to the project. But even if he is released back into the area, he should at least serve his time. Nothing will cause more resentment among his opponents than Piotrus once again escaping through this kind of pressure.

PS ... I am not very impressed with NYB's intervention in the AE thread. ArbCom get to make rulings, individual arbs shouldn't try to enforce (or suggest on their authority) a preferred interpretation on AE admins (we have Clarification anyway). All users need to be protected from the caprice and injustice that this would cause. AE admins have a duty to ignore arbs if they try to interfere in the process, but the arbs themselves should know better (this is not addressed to Kiril or Shell, who are recused). The current wording is indeed badly written, but clearly implies that Piotrus should not be allowed to edit any EE article if there is likely to be some kind of nationalist dispute involved. It is established principle of AE enforcement that rulings are interpreted broadly. You may be telling the truth regarding your own intent, but it is irrelevant, since you didn't word the draft well enough to make that intent clear. If you wanted something that allowed Piotrus to edit uncontroversially in the area, that may be respectable ... but it needed more thought. Piotrus could have been restricted to Poland-only articles with content not impinging on the histories of other European countries (as presently defined). He would probably try his luck at stretching and lawyering this, but it is a set of limits that AE admins don't need expertise to enforce AND would fulfill much of the purpose.

Disclosure requests

I received an email from a non-involved user in this matter informing me that he was canvassed for the AE thread by Piotrus. The email itself contained a quite dishonest account of Mkativerata's block. Because of this I think it would be of benefit to the project if those canvassed would disclose that they were canvassed. I'd also like to request that all arbitrators who have met Piotrus personally disclose this. This in itself is not a reason for recusal, but the onlooking community are entitled to know if any users subject to ArbCom rulings may have been able to exert more influence than others.

Response to NYB

Newyorkbrad, yes, you may have envisioned your draft in a particular way, but that doesn't mean other arbs who voted on it did; and even if other arbs now claim to have had the same understanding, there is no way of verifying this. AE admins are entitled to use the most obvious meaning of a text, and one individual arbitrator trying to insist on one 'real meaning' of a resolution after the resolution has passed is ill-advised. Imagine if this were to happen all the time. ;)

Response to Shell

I think Shell's comments here and on my talk page should speak for themselves. In response, I'd point out that she was accusing me of several things, including bearing a grudge against Piotrus. This is frequently stated by EEML because they wish to defuse the impact of my comments. SK's has seemingly been inadvertently co-opted as a mouthpiece. My previous interaction with her came when she lambasted me for complaining about Piotrus closing a 3RR thread Radek was involved in and warning his opponent as an admin. I don't wish to have any dispute with her, but being attacked seems to be a consequence of sticking up for wikipedia on this matter. Incidentally, I didn't 'dig up' the photo, I was sent a link to it by an anonymous Wikipedian. I merely asked if they were RL friends. She didn't really have any reason to get so worked up with bad faith about this, as she is recused and is free even to join EEML if she wants. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim(Talk) 22:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

PS, I don't think it is credible for Shell to be claiming neutrality at this stage (if that's what she's doing), not with edits likethis so recently. It is well known that Piotrus' best skill, as boasted in the archive, is befriending users likely to intervene in EE disputes (amicable co-operation, followed by 'advice' stage). She's now calling for gagging order on me, something long desired by Piotrus and the EEML (Feb 5, 2009 at 20:49); however she had been relying on Piotrus' advice for banning users in pre-EEML days (22 June 2009 16:05) and her largely favorable of history decision-making and spokeswomanship vis-a-vis EEML led a member of the EEML to describe her as a potential "asset" . Not that I am alleging corruption or anything (it should be clear that I'm not), I just think she may have lost her way a bit. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:39, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Re Shell ... the time and date are references to EEML archive emails. Sorry for not making that clear. I will continue this discussion with you on your talk page if you don't mind, since a big back-and-forth here is probably not very useful. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC):I responded to Shell, but unfortunately she is not willing to take the back forth off this page and would prefer to escalate her dispute with me here. I am not willing to dilute my comments here any further with what will only be perceived as squabbling, but can at least say I tried to take it elsewhere (and she can continue the convo on her own page any time she likes whenever she calms down). Deacon of Pndapetzim(Talk) 02:31, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

Consider my disappointment to be escalated to outright alarm based on Deacon's grossly poor judgement exhibited here, which appears to be little more than an escalating vendetta against all past EEML members. I sat out my topic ban only to have an admin propose—over a year later—institutionalizing permanent abuse? PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА►TALK 04:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

re: Mkativerata: I occasionally contact admins et al. to express my concerns when doing so on-Wiki would lead to accusations of block shopping, needless escalation of conflict, et al. (I recall a note to Mkativerata some time ago, we had a cordial exchange.) I always include a clear statement I am not block shopping. An admin who becomes active in EE topics should expect to receive complaints and commentary from the full spectrum of EE editorial contributors. Mkativerata should not be "surprised" about being contacted. And why bring contact up if there has been no inappropriate contact here? Witness the needless drama already caused with Skäpperöd's resultant (and not wholly unwarranted given the implication of inappropriate contact) witch hunting. I would request that if any admin feels anyone has contacted them inappropriately (block shopping et al.) that an AN/I be opened and the inappropriate contact be addressed. Seeking sanctions behind editors' backs is a perpetual problem in many areas of conflict and should be addressed and discouraged. PЄTЄRSJ VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 03:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

re: Timotheus Canens, the locus of contention is present day conflicts in the portrayal of Soviet legacy, also, more widely but to a lesser extent, other Eastern European/Central Eastern European conflicts regarding portrayal of topics, e.g., people names and place names ("which language" is uber alles, etc.), similarly with roots in historical representation. Obviously, some of this will also pertain to armed conflicts between parties. However, a past war in some century is not an in-scope conflict if there is no scholarly dispute regarding its portrayal—or any differences in historical sources have been dealt with amicably and constructively.PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. So thank you for T. Canen's wording suggestion, that is sufficient to address. PЄTЄRS JVЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

@Skäpperöd, really this is bordering on harassment. Irpen also denounced me for personal attacks when I simply indicated he misrepresented sources, Irpen is hardly an editor to hold up as an example of WP rectitude regarding the so-called EE dispute. We are moving on, you are moving backwards as demonstrated by bringing up EE warrior Irpen from three years ago. Lastly, please refrain from presenting you characterizations of personal correspondence as fact. EEML is closed. If it's not, I'm sure ArbCom will let us know, in which case I would also take a different course of action from moving on. Until then I suggest you move on before this starts looking like a vendetta.PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK

Statement by Skäpperöd

Question to Mkativerata

Who sent you those e-mails? I am asking because trying to influence/cause administrative decisions by coordinating e-mails etc to AE sysops like Thatcher, Sandstein, Jehochman etc was one of the verified tactics employed by the EEML group, usually coordinated by Piotrus. If this strategy is now being re-activated, there ought to be consequences. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Re Shell Kinney

I understand you are upset about Deacon asking you about how close your contact to Piotrus is. If you take a step back and look at the issue from an outside point of view, and if you recall that manipulating sysops was one of the EEML's objectives, you may find that it is reasonable to aks such questions:

Please imagine how a random observer must react to the picture showing you looking at Piotrus. I found it interesting to see an arb having RL contact to a user desysoped and convicted because of several cases of off-wiki-coordinated disruption. You probably underestimate the impact such photographies may have on people. To the personal atmosphere between Piotrus and you suggested by this photography, it adds that

• few other wikipedians were there, and you signed up when Piotrus was already on the list,
• your short on-wiki chat with Piotrus and the lack of such an exchange with other participants
• you responding first (and positive) to Piotrus' call for another meeting

Imho none of this proves that Piotrus and you are really close friends, but your contact and the fact that the EEML was about social networking of an interest group, using Piotrus' sociology expertise for manipulation, may reasonably give rise to concerns about what's going on there. And what has happened now is that Piotrus has already used your comments here to call for action against his long-time target Deacon .

Please keep in mind that it was Deacon who started the Piotrus2 arbcom, andhad arbcom not been fooled in that case and taken preventive measures, the whole EEML fuzz would not even have happened. You should AGF that Deacon, who was proven more than right during the EEML arbcom, is doing nothing but protecting wikipedia now as he did back then. You should be aware of what makes protection necessary, as you removed a bunch of Piotrus' deeds from his last amendment request .

Re Shell (2), Piotrus

Shell, in the edit summary of your response you ask "what's the proper punishment for having looked at another wikipedian?" I think you completely missed the point here. Nobody is calling for punishment, the whole point is that you are not just two random wikipedians, and that the whole Piotrus/EEML case is about maintaining an undercover social network of an interest group who, among other things, has tried to manipulate sysops multiple times already.

Piotrus and other members of his group have accumulated a considerable expertise and infrastructure to further their interests on-wiki, and make what is in fact staged and the result of sophisticated, co-ordinated manipulation look like it was proper application or the result of wikipedia processes: This was noticed by the community (2006 example), (2007 example),(2008 example) and brought before Arbcom in the Piotrus and Piotrus2 (later EE disputes) cases (2008/09: "meatpuppetry", "teamwork","coordinated edit-warring", "improper use of off-wiki channels"), yet Arbcom then gave him the benefit of doubt. When part of Piotrus' group's off-wiki mail traffic was forwarded, the existence of a mailing list (WPM aka EEML), an instant messenger group and the development of a secret wiki on Piotrus' initiative was revealed.

In the infamous oversighted edit where Radeksz (now renamed Volunteer Marek) posted his inbox on-wiki when the EEML case was about to be closed, he revealed that

• the EEML core group was still active and even recruiting new members
• Piotrus was the most active sender of mails

Other indications of Piotrus continuing to make politics off-wiki in 2010 are that

• he established off-wiki contact to MalikShabbaz , who took care of most of Piotrus' "task lists" at the Poland noticboard and is now commenting in his favor and calling for sanctions for Deacon.
• he apparently requested a revert off-wiki, to some Lithuanian nationalist organization

Some continuation of on-wiki advocacy for his group is also traceble for 2010: Piotrus lobbied for EEML member Radeksz at AE and decorated him, he comforted EEML-associate and ex-Arbcom candidate Loosmark , he lobbied for EEML member Martintg at AE , he initiated an AE against EEML target Dr. Dan , he asked sysop Sandstein if he could comment on an AE report against EEML member Biruitorul, and when that was denied he asked sysop AGK at the next request and it took an intervention by Deacon to make AGK aware (I agree with your (i.e. Deacon's, Sk.) comments at AE, and I certainly would have advised Piotrus differently than I did had I then been aware). Keeping in mind that Deacon initiated the Piotrus2 arbcom, and all the efforts Piotrus made back then to convince the arbs that Deacon was wrong while he was proven more than right in the subsequent EEML arbcom - yes, Piotrus would certainly appreciate it if Deacon was silenced. And keep in mind the methods employed by Piotrus to achieve his goals, revealed during the EEML case, which included getting people to make the "right" comments and take the "right" action at the "right" time to his benefit.

In this request,

• Mkativerata has expressed concerns about the mails he received
• Piotrus is supported by users he has off-wiki contact with
• Piotrus is trying to get disagreeing users sanctioned
• Piotrus even linked to this requestat the Poland board

I see no indication that Piotrus will avoid problematic behaviour in the future; I see no indication that the core group of the "EEML" has dissolved, while there is some indication that it is not; I see no tools/remedies in place that would enable Arbcom/the community to detect and prevent further off-wiki co-ordinated disruption.

Well before the EEML case, in 2008 (!), Irpen asked Piotrus to agree to avoid just three kinds of behavior in the future:

• logging followed by uploading log's excerpts to boards with the purpose to get the opponents blocked
• using off-line channels to recruit help in revert wars or to stack votes in surveys,
• using private channels, such as #admins or direct mail to other admins to discuss people behind their backs and call for the sanctions.

Piotrus promised to not do that. Then cameWP:EEML. I think Arbcom ought to be more cautious here. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Re Georgewilliamherbert

I disagree about the "punishing not preventative" part. Arbcom has taken no precautions at all against the continuation of the EEML, except for the topic bans. The topic bans are therefore preventative. Instead of lifting the bans one by one, arbcom should think about how future detrimental EEML activity may be prevented. Skäpperöd (talk) 03:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Shell Kinney

I suppose it was too much to hope that the usual players in these disputes would have decided to put this behind them during the past year. It's disappointing to see Deacon re-entering this same dispute against Piotrus after so long. It's a bit worrying to see that he dug up a picture, hours after it had been posted, identified both people in the picture (despite there being no names posted at that time) and is using it to suggest that having been to the same (large) Misplaced Pages event with someone is somehow evidence of impropriety. Shortly thereafter, he accused me of slander for pointing out these concerns, which is wholly inappropriate to say the least. If one must really reach that far to find a grue, perhaps the grues are just a figment of your imagination (or in other words, if someone thinks I was actually discussing ArbCom business during a Pittsburgh playoff game and Misplaced Pages birthday party, their poor opinion of my social life is noted but unsupportable). Shell 17:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Deacon speaks volumes about "being attacked", yet he seems to be the only one hurling accusations here (sans diffs) as he now blithely claims that independent editors should be disregarded as mouthpieces and can go join EEML. On one hand he's terribly concerned that people are getting emails off-site, and on the other, a mysterious stranger, not he, was responsible for the creepiness over the new image and he's just the harmless by-stander who received an email. I'm concerned that this point that we're seeing a rather obvious reemergence of previous battleground behavior now that so many of these topic bans are coming to a close. Perhaps this is another place where an interaction ban would be appropriate. Shell 22:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Deacon, I guess I'm at a loss to understand what you're getting at here? Can you explain what exactly you find nefarious about the single diff you've provided to back up your claims whose content is nothing more than "Aww you left a few minutes too early."? Or perhaps explain why the other accusations you made aren't accompanied by diffs while some give only a date and time? I'd suggest that you've not got a very clear view of my administrative actions in the EE topic area if you think the outcome of investigations such asthis one were favorable to one side. You've already mentioned that you feel you're defending Misplaced Pages here but from what exactly? Shell 01:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately since you made these claims here in public, I'd prefer you deal with them here as well rather than take it off to my talk page. You've now made accusations against me based on private emails to which I have no access from a mailing list I had no part of and left me with no ability to review this supposed evidence or defend myself from it. I guess I'm just not understanding the zeal to paint me as involved or acting inappropriately here. You are aware that I'm recused from this case because I presented evidence against Piotrus?Shell 02:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a simple request that Deacon either provide some basis for these escalating accusations or strike them is unreasonable. Perhaps a good first step would be to remove anything based of a "personal feeling" so that other editors can review anything based on evidence and give us some guidance on whether or not they consider me biased or a mouthpiece of EEML here. Shell 02:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Deacon, Skäpperöd, I've had some time to think over your concerns, I believe you may really be on to something here. Having looked at a number of other photographs from that evening, it's clear that a disturbing pattern emerges; I imagine you'd shudder just to see them. It turns out several other photgraphs caught me looking at people, obviously in the midst of plotting some dastardly scheme. In others, you can easily identify who I've managed to recruit as I was seen to be shaking hands with them to seal the deal. There are also photos of me flitting from person to person, most certainly canvassing for additional support and even supplying them with small trinkets to ensure their loyalty. And finally, the most damning of all, one clearly subsurvient Wikipedian was forced to give up his chair for me just so I could order from the bar. In all, an incredibly productive night for my plans to take over Misplaced Pages. If only there wasn't photographic evidence!</humor> Apologies to those who don't necessarily appreciate using humor here, but I honestly couldn't come up with a serious answer to defend myself from having been caught looking at someone. Shell 08:11, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Georgewilliamherbert

Specific to this removal request - I believe that there's credible evidence that the restriction is at this time merely punitive and not preventive of abusive behavior. This is reinforced by other comments which seek to use it in a punitive and not preventive manner. Pursuant to our general policy and lack of evident current or recent abusive behavior by the requesting party, that seems to argue for early removal of the restriction. If misbehavior appears again it's easy enough for admins to intervene within our usual scope and authority.

Generally - There seems to be lingering bad blood on several parties' account, without justifiable ongoing provocation, to the extent that an interaction ban is called for. This seems like not the right venue for that, but it may be appropriate on AN. I'm not starting one right away, but that seems like the next step. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Biophys

You can safely lift all topic bans in the areas of discretionary sanctions for editors who are active and follow the rules. If they still have trouble, they will be quickly brought to AE and sanctioned by AE administrators. This can be said not only about Piotrus.

There is nothing wrong with talking or sending emails. If there is an evidence that the content of recent emails by Piotrus or conversations with Piotrus was indeed inappropriate, then it can be treated accordingly. However, repeatedly making personal accusations at public forums without any evidence about Piotrus and everyone who talks with him is a serious violation of WP:AGF, WP:NPA and WP:BATTLE and must be prevented from repeating in the future, for example by issuing interactions bans for the parties guilty of the violations. The photo is not an evidence because talking with Piotrus is not a crime. Telling "thank you" to others after coming back from his block is also not a crime. This story is a blow to wikipedia public relations. Who will attend your meetings? Biophys (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Re to Skäpperöd . Remove all very old diffs, and there is nothing illegal by Piotrus except your suspicions. You tell that he "comforted" A, "decorated" B and supported ("lobbied for") C. Yes, he helps others. Is it bad? How about all of us just helping each other? Too many good contents contributors received topic bans, and this is detrimental to the project. Biophys (talk) 22:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

A lot of accusations by Skäpperöd, with whom I never had any content disputes... I can not tell for others, but I disconnected my wikipedia email and have no off-wiki contacts with any member of the mailing list for a very long time. However, I am going to support on-wiki any user I know and wish to support, in full accordance with our policies. Hence I am here. As about accusing (rather than supporting) established contributors, this is a completely different matter and must be avoided at any cost, as I have learned hard way by receiving my sanctions. Biophys (talk) 01:19, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

For this case there are 14 active arbitrators, not counting 4 recused. 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

• Iridescent is recused on Piotrus matters.
• Kirill Lokshin recused on the last Piotrus motion.
• Roger Davies recused on Piotrus matters.
• Shell Kinney recused on the entire case.