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1949 Commentary article

The article's "History" section currently begins as follows:

An early use of the concept in close to its modern form was in the late 1940s, when the Soviet Union was accused of pursuing a "new anti-Semitism" against Jews, of the sort manifested in the so-called Doctors' plot, a supposed conspiracy by Jewish doctors to poison the Soviet leadership. Stalinist opposition to "rootless cosmopolitans" – a euphemism for Jews – was rooted in the belief, as expressed by Klement Gottwald, that "treason and espionage infiltrate the ranks of the Communist Party. This channel is Zionism."

There are some problems with this section.

• Solomon Schwarz's article was published three years before the "Doctors' plot", making the link somewhat tenuous.
• On a more fundamental level, Schwarz's article is only tangentially focused on the relationship between Zionism and anti-Semitism. Consider the following:

The unexpectedness of this rapid succession of apparently anti-Semitic moves has caused commentators to improvise hasty explanations. The most popular of these is that Jews are, by cultural and familial ties, internationalist in outlook and therefore do not fit very snugly into the recent wave of officially fostered Russian nationalism. Another school of thought holds that the setting up of a Jewish state in Palestine has reawakened outlawed Zionist sympathies in the Jews of Russia proper as well as in the annexed sectors of Poland. Both of these explanations are pertinent, but they do not get to the heart of Soviet anti-Semitism. (p. 536)

The particular virulence of the present purge of Jewish intellectuals -- the purge of Jews from the political apparatus having been to a large extent already achieved -- is apparently due to the convergence of the revived bureaucratic anti-Semitism of the late 30's with the postwar growth of Russian nationalism as a political instrument of the Soviet government. Unquestionably such specific factors as the wave of general xenophobia sweeping Russia -- a Xenophobia which daily becomes part of the permanent cultural atmosphere of the country rather than a passing excess -- as well as the Soviet disappointment over the composition of the new Jewish state, also play an important part in the genesis of the incidents that are arousing apprehension among Jews everywhere.

But it is to the careful study of the Russian system that we must look for the social context in which such political and diplomatic developments bear fruit in anti-Semitic sentiments and actions. (p. 545)

Most of Schwarz's article is focused on "popular" or institutional forms of anti-Semitic discrimination within the Soviet state, and has nothing whatever to do with Zionism or Israel. It does not represent "an early use of the concept in close to its modern form", and is accordingly an unsuitable source for our article.

• Once Schwarz's article is excluded, the remainder of the paragraph appears untenable -- at least in its present form. The only other external source currently provided is a brief fragment from Pravda, which is critical of Zionism but does not reference the term "rootless cosmopolitans" (despite an inference to the contrary). Whether or not the Pravda fragment is anti-Semitic is a subject for debate; identifying it as representative of "new anti-Semitism" seems more than a bit dubious.

• The anti-Semitic character of the "Doctors' Plot" has been addressed by innumerable historians, and is not particularly controversial. However, no reliable evidence been provided in this article to demonstrate that the "Doctors' Plot", or Stalin's purges generally, are relevant to the modern concept of "new anti-Semitism". Once the Schwarz article is excluded, there are no reliable sources in our article which link Stalin's late period of rule with the "new anti-Semitism" term.

Given that my last attempt to remove something from this article led to an inane month-long dispute (in which some editors argued for the retention of a demonstrably inaccurate statement), I'm prepared to wait for a response before deciding what to do with the paragraph. If other editors (i) believe that the basic thrust of the paragraph is relevant to the article, and (ii) are able to cite appropriate sources to demonstrate its relevance, then it may be possible for the paragraph to be retained. In its current form, however, it is clearly unacceptable.

Comments welcome. CJCurrie 01:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Why didn't you object to it when ChrisO added it? SlimVirgin 00:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I found it innocuous at the time. I can't remember.

I'll assume that you have no objections to raise. CJCurrie 07:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Would Armon please explain why he returned the paragraph? CJCurrie 08:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Because there's no consensus to remove it. Please leave it there and don't start another revert war to remove material other people have written that has been there for a long time. SlimVirgin 08:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, WP:BOLD. Could we please use this page to actually discuss reverts as well as changes? —Ashley Y 08:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not a page that editors should be bold on, because it's too controversial, as it says at the top of this page. Such large changes, especially the deletion of long-standing material, has to be discussed in advance, and then only carried out if people agree. No response does not signal agreement. CJCurrie does this far too often and it causes trouble every time. He also only does it in areas where he feels the left is being criticized, which is tiresome and I wish it would stop. SlimVirgin 09:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it's sensible to discuss a big change in advance, but I think no response actually signals no objection. If someone comes along later and reverts, they should probably at least discuss it afterwards on the talk page. —Ashley Y 09:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Response:

(i) I don't consider the removal of this paragraph to be a "large change".

(ii) I don't consider this deletion to be especially controversial, nor do I consider it to be "causing trouble".

(iii) I've outlined a case for deleting the paragraph. No one has responded.

(iv) For some curious reason, most questionable assertions throughout the history of this article have had to do with criticism of the left.

(v) I have no particular desire to defend the Soviet Union, but I don't believe the paragraph is relevant to the concept of "new antisemitism".

Sigh ... in my naivete, I actually thought a change this simple could be accomplished without a protracted standoff. Apparently not. Could others please respond to my original post? CJCurrie 09:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the USSR is important here. Even today, the rhetoric and the imagery used by the Left comes straight from the Soviet propaganda: anti-colonialism, anti-apartheid, anti-imperialist, etc. Let's keep in mind that what they shyly called "anti-Zionism" was a rallying cry throughout the Cold War. As you noted yourself, "Schwarz's article is only tangentially focused on the relationship between Zionism and anti-Semitism." ←Humus sapiens 10:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

That's presumably why ChrisO added it in the first place. SlimVirgin 11:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I reverted and was going to discuss here, but real life got in the way. It's fair comment that I should have explained myself. Basically it's the same reasons SV and Hummus gave, it's important historical context which, if anything, should be expanded IMO. I don't agree with your reasons to exclude Schwarz's article. If fact, in the quotes you presented he's clearly talking about "the Soviet disappointment over the composition of the new Jewish state" or "anti-Zionism" as a key pretext for Soviet antisemitism. <<-armon->> 11:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Our use of the Schwarz article would indeed seem to constitute OR. HumusSapiens post above sums up the grounds for its inclusion, without quite realizing those grounds are pure OR. Armon says that in the cited passages Schwarz is "clearly talking about the Soviet disappointment over the the composition of the new Jewish state." Yes, Schwarz clearly mentions this, but only as an example of an unsatisfactory explanation, something that fails to "get to the heart of Soviet anti-semitism."

Are there others with substantive responses to CJ? He's made a serious case here, which merits a more serious response than has yet been provided. --G-Dett 21:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Jay, I asked "who but Wikipedians says that what these 1949 and 1952 writings describe is NAS 'in close to its modern form'?" You say you still don't understand what I'm getting at, so I thought I'd explain here and give you a chance to self-revert. CJ's demonstrated at length why this paragraph is problematic. His reasons are sound and have yet to be answered with any detail or seriousness. What I'm adding is only a footnote to this, but it's enough on its own to disqualify the paragraph. If you only have energy to respond to one of us, however, let it be him.

The question that CJ raised is, how does this writing from 1949 belong here, if its author is stressing that what he means by "new antisemitism" has little to do with Zionism? Are we trying to give the subject of this article a historical pedigree – "an early use of the concept in close to its modern form," etc. – by referencing something written over a half-century ago, on the grounds that it uses the same phrase – "new antisemitism" – while arguably if not unequivocally meaning something else by it? The "new" of 1949 is not necessarily the "new" of the 21st-century, and after all the new this or the new that is about as generic a phrase as can be imagined. This is why I asked, what reliable source is saying that the subject of the 1949 article is the forerunner of what is now (controversially) called "new antisemitism"? As far as I can tell, it's a Wikipedian who's decided this. But please correct me if I'm wrong.--G-Dett 03:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The 1949 Commentary article has no clear connection to the current concept of New Antisemitism. It just mentions en passant Zionism as one possible cause for the purge of Jewish intellectuals. There was no follow-up. It seems a bit far-fetched to make mention of this article here. I fully support removing it.

Also, please note that the Talk page is where proposals for changes are made. If someone disagrees with a proposed change, they should say so and say why, rather than filibustering the proposal by not responding to it.--Abenyosef 04:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Update

I first raised objections to the "1949 Commentary article" paragraph on March 10. Since then, three editors have responded on this page to indicate their objection to its removal.

• In response to my question as to why Armon restored the disputed paragraph, SlimVirgin wrote the following: "Because there's no consensus to remove it. Please leave it there and don't start another revert war to remove material other people have written that has been there for a long time." She later added: "This is not a page that editors should be bold on, because it's too controversial, as it says at the top of this page. Such large changes, especially the deletion of long-standing material, has to be discussed in advance, and then only carried out if people agree. No response does not signal agreement. CJCurrie does this far too often and it causes trouble every time. He also only does it in areas where he feels the left is being criticized, which is tiresome and I wish it would stop."
• Humus sapiens wrote the following: "I think the USSR is important here. Even today, the rhetoric and the imagery used by the Left comes straight from the Soviet propaganda: anti-colonialism, anti-apartheid, anti-imperialist, etc. Let's keep in mind that what they shyly called "anti-Zionism" was a rallying cry throughout the Cold War. As you noted yourself, "Schwarz's article is only tangentially focused on the relationship between Zionism and anti-Semitism."
• Armon wrote the following: "Sorry, I reverted and was going to discuss here, but real life got in the way. It's fair comment that I should have explained myself. Basically it's the same reasons SV and Hummus gave, it's important historical context which, if anything, should be expanded IMO. I don't agree with your reasons to exclude Schwarz's article. If fact, in the quotes you presented he's clearly talking about "the Soviet disappointment over the composition of the new Jewish state" or "anti-Zionism" as a key pretext for Soviet antisemitism."

My responses:

• SlimVirgin's opposition to removing the paragraph appears to rest upon two planks: (i) the fact that it has been in the article for some time, and (ii) the fact that CJCurrie supports its removal. She has not provided any defence of the paragraph itself.
• Humus sapiens's argument that "the imagery used by the Left comes straight from the Soviet propaganda: anti-colonialism, anti-apartheid, anti-imperialist, etc." is Original Research, as G-Dett has already noted. While his belief that "the USSR is important here" may be heartfelt, he has not shown any evidence that Soviet anti-Zionism (or Soviet anti-Semitism) dating from 1949-52 is relevant to the modern concept of "new antisemitism". I'm hesitant to comment on his statement, "As you noted yourself, Schwarz's article is only tangentially focused on the relationship between Zionism and anti-Semitism.", as I'm not entirely certain of what he's trying to argue.
• Armon's objection is based on a misreading of the source material. Schwarz explictly argues that "Soviet anti-Zionism" and "the Soviet disappointment over the composition of the new Jewish state" is not central to Soviet anti-Semitism circa 1949.

No-one has yet presented a credible defense of the paragraph, although this hasn't stopped SlimVirgin and her allies from resisting all attempts to delete it. I would suggest that if editors want the paragraph to be retained, they should be prepared to argue a more convincing case in its favour. Alternately, if editors want to cite connections between Soviet anti-Zionism and "new antisemitism", they should be prepared to provide better sources.

From what I can tell, the only thing linking Solomon Schwarz's article to the modern concept of "new antisemitism" is that fact that the phrase "New Anti-Semitism" appears in the title. This is not a particularly compelling connection. The phrase itself is fairly generic, and has only taken on a particular meaning since 2000 (or 1973, if you want to trace it back to the first ADL book). The fact that the words "New Anti-Semitism" appear in a 1949 article is not particularly relevant, and I rather doubt that any recent works promoting the term "new antisemitism" have made use of Schwarz's observations.

Schwarz's article is not focused on the Soviet Union's opposition to Zionism, and Schwarz himself was not prescient enough to foresee the "Doctor's Plot" three years later. The article is about "popular" prejudice and institutional barriers to advancement, and its title refers to mutations in Soviet anti-Semitism from the 1920s and '30s. It is not, as such, relevant to an encyclopedia article on the modern "new antisemitism" concept.

Of course, it might be possible to retain the disputed paragraph if other editors are willing to acknowledge that the term "new anti-Semitism" has had different meanings in different historical contexts, and to restructure the article accordingly. Past experience suggests that such an acknowledgement will not be forthcoming.

If no-one can make a credible case for retaining the paragraph in the next day or so, then I can see no reason why it should not be removed. CJCurrie 01:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This should be a fairly simple matter. If there's a source connecting the 1949 Commentary article to the phenomenon of "New Antisemitism" as defined by our article, then we should cite that source. If there isn't, it's OR and should be removed. Same with the mention of the "Doctors' Plot."--G-Dett 15:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

External sites/further reading

Hi Slim, geocites isn't appropriate is it? Also, frontpagemag.com is an attack site isn't it? --Tom 23:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not an attack site. SlimVirgin 23:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Foreign-language links

English language links are strongly preferred in the English-language Misplaced Pages. It may be appropriate to have a link to a foreign-language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English, when the link is to the subject's text in its original language or they contain visual aids such as maps, diagrams, or tables, per the guideline on foreign-language sites.

When linking to a site in a foreign language under the exceptions above, label the link with a language icon, available for most languages, using two-letter language codes: for example, {{es icon}}, {{fr icon}}, etc. --WP:EL#Foreign-language_links

Someone said that foreign language links should be removed. That's overstating the case, though clearly English is strongly prefered. I don't read Hebrew; to what extent are the articles at http://www.geocities.com/byemini/yemini.html a 'unique' contribution to the debate? Regards, Ben Aveling 00:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't care about this link either way. I was concerned about the removal of Frontpage mag as an "attack site." SlimVirgin 00:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well perhaps I was too brief in my edit summary but given the combination of (1) foreign language and (2) hosted on Geocities... I'm having difficulty seeing how that link qualifies under a combo of WP:EL and WP:RS. (→Netscott) 00:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither hosting on geocities (convenience links are allowed) nor foreign language (also allowed) would disqualify it. However, those issues apart, I don't see it as particularly useful. SlimVirgin 00:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

(e/c)Which falls under WP:EL. Essentially, does the link provide content in that foreign language that is more or less essential to the topic at hand and the same content can't be found in English? I think you're answering that question with your response Slim Virgin. Thanks. (→Netscott) 00:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Netscott for your imput and help with that external link. Slim was telling me to read the WP:EL policy when in fact it seemed that she need the refresher course. Anyways,--Tom 01:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Not that it matters, but I didn't advise you to read WP:EL and it's not a policy. SlimVirgin 01:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Slim, which policies were you referring to here? And I see that WP:EL is a MOS or guideline? Is it me or is this place overly policy/guideline ridden. Anyways, no big deal, I have trying to remove external links lately that are "not appropriate" whatever that means :) Cheers, --Tom 01:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Just so there's no misunderstanding about this. If other editors see that link as having compelling content that's essential to this topic and can't be found elsewhere in English then I'd certainly not have any problem seeing it come back. I say this because I must admit that I don't read Hebrew and made my editorial decision about this from the look of the site and what I percieved to be shortcomings about the link. (→Netscott) 01:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

And it's not like there's a shortage of external links from this article... Ben Aveling 00:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Lead

Mackan, please don't change the lead over objections. Just because people don't keep on responding to your many, many posts doesn't mean they agree. Your changes don't improve anything and you're removing sources. SlimVirgin 04:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There's been plenty of response and discussion of this issue. —Ashley Y 05:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Where did I say there hadn't been discussion, Ashley? SlimVirgin 05:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Quite. And that discussion has generated a rough consensus. —Ashley Y 06:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The issue has been discussed ad nauseum, as you know, for over a month, and achieved a clear concensus of a large number of editors on the talk page, at least 6 of whom directly participated in creating the new version. Also, I did not remove any sources, but made sure to retain them, and simply moved one in accordance with the new version. Is this ok then? Also, am I wrong to think that if you disagreed with the change, that perhaps you could have spoken up over the last month while we were discussing it? Mackan79 05:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Until the objections become more detailed and engaged, I think it should be fine to go ahead and keep editing the article, reverting non-constructive deletions as we go along. WP:Consensus is not meant to provide veto powers through stonewalling.--G-Dett 14:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Leifern, have I gathered correctly from the above that you would be ok with the change to the lead? I think we should try to separate this from the original research issue later on. I tend to agree with G-Dett on both points, but am somewhat skeptical of our ability to decide this all together. If you don't object, Leifern, I'll reintroduce the new lead, without comment on the second OR issue, just so we can try to deal with this appropriately. Mackan79 15:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It depends on which version of the lead you're talking about :-) Seriously, we should be able to come up with something reasonable, and then maybe structure the rest of the article in a reasonable way. I would recommend that we keep proposing new leads here or on a separate page and critique it earnestly with each other. But I want to state for the record that it's NPOV to say that Israel has defense needs, just like Palestinians have humanitarian and political needs and rights. This could devolve into the depths of pettiness unless we're willing to be serious about it. --Leifern 16:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I think we're all doing a little mixing of the two articles here :) Revise comment for New Antisemitism (I think you're still in Talk:Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid mode)? The question related to whether we should use the new formulation that is clearer about the connection between NAS and anti-Zionism. I won't repeat since I know you've been following the discussion. Mackan79 17:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Protect

I have protected this entry due to excessive revert warring. Please try to settle disputes in a civil and collaborative fashion here on the Talk page. Just blindly reverting each other will not work. Try to find a middle ground, which I am sure exists. I would like to unprotect the entry as soon as possible, so please settle down and give collaboration a chance. Thanks, Crum375 16:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

You had every reason to protect the page, Crum375, but I'm not sure a cooling-off period is going to help much. The edit-warring may be borne of frustration, frayed nerves, etc. on one side, but it appears to be strategy on the other. That is to say, there are influential editors on one side of this who refuse even to address the patiently detailed arguments of their opponents on the talk page, but hasten to revert edits that result from the very process they're refusing to participate in – citing a lack of consensus. This in effect turns stonewalling into veto-power. Short of comprehensive mediation, I don't see a way out of this.--G-Dett 00:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why not go for mediation? Crum375 00:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

We have tried it. Mel came in here for a while, but editors involved in the edit wars that precipitated his arrival were no more enthusiastic about mediation than they are about discussion, and Mel, by and by, went his way. The aborted mediation was thereafter archived.--G-Dett 01:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Crum375, have a look at CJ's latest post, which came in minutes ago, just after I reponded to your protection. It's an almost poignant example of what I'm talking about – a patient, detailed, enduringly courteous (all things considered) attempt to engage with a programmatically obstinate and unresponsive opposition.--G-Dett 01:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion, instead of attacking everything at once, or presenting long dissertations for each side, why don't you at least agree on what is the most critical and contentious issue, and then focus solely on that one item? Try to reduce it to its barest and simplest form, and then someone external may be able to mediate. If it's a complex set of issues, it may appear too intimidating to uninvolved parties, who are all working as volunteers. Then stay with that one issue until resolved, and then repeat the process. Crum375 01:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Such a strategy will only be successful if both sides are interested in pursuing a timely resolution of the controversy. Recent experience suggests otherwise. CJCurrie 01:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm optimistic that we can establish a consensus among those willing to discuss here. —Ashley Y 01:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately Crum, I think if you can imagine it, we've probably tried it. That said, I think your point about separating the issues is actually an important problem here, but perhaps also a reason why the edit history may look more contentious that it has really been. Due to lock downs in the past, and extended month-long attempts to discuss the individual issues, we seem to have had a number of things pile up unresolved. This has created some confusion, to be sure, but my guess is that with a little effort we may actually be able to work through it. Of course, this may fail as well. Pretty clearly the pure-talking stage has been worn about as thin as it can go, though, which I think people on both sides here will agree. That's not to say we'll stop talking, but perhaps that the editing and talking really need to go together at this point. Mackan79 01:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

So what do you suggest is the best way to proceed, given this situation? Crum375 02:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion would be formal mediation. We've tried informal mediation twice, and in both cases it's ended without a full resolution of the controversies. Formal mediation is the next logical step. CJCurrie 02:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me at this point. Alternatively, we could simply try reopening the page for one last shot to see what happens, but you're probably right, Crum, that the number of issues will prevent this from working. Mackan79 02:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a technical question: am I permitted to add "dubious" template notices to the article while protection is in effect? I pose the question because there is currently no indication in the article itself that the "1949 Commentary" paragraph is a subject of dispute. CJCurrie 01:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we're supposed to touch it at all while it's protected. —Ashley Y 02:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I know that's generally the rule, but I'm wondering if an exception can be made to indicate the existence of a dispute. CJCurrie 02:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think for now we should refrain from making any changes unless they have unanimous support. Since this is a non-BLP entry, I don't see a problem if there are still unresolved issues or disputes. Crum375 02:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that there's currently no indication that a dispute exists. I'm also a bit concerned that some editors who have an interest in defending the status quo version will try to prolong the page protection for as long as possible. CJCurrie 02:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to both threads above, I would suggest that you try to initiate formal mediation, and that status could then be indicated on the entry in some way. Crum375 02:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This makes sense. CJCurrie 02:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Crum, would you mind changing the "protected2" template to "protected"? That's always been the de facto signal that the article is disputed. Kla'quot 04:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I personally prefer the protected2, as I find it more aesthetic and less intrusive and I would like to see it used site-wide. I think the use of templates should be reduced to a bare minimum, especially in article space, as we seem to be drowning in it. Just looking at the top of this page is a good example. As far as a sign of a dispute, I agreed that it may make sense to add an indication (as much as I dislike the concept) once the article is in formal mediation, but in general I assume that almost every hard-protected entry represents a dispute of some kind. Crum375 11:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to engage in mediation, formal or otherwise, with serious editors. The reason I stayed away from the latest informal attempt is that there seemed to be a degree of trolling involved and I'm not willing to feed it. If the editors who have problems with the article could choose a couple of representatives (people who've made serious contributions to the article or the talk page), perhaps the other "side" could do the same; any mediation would therefore be seriously conducted and, I suspect, swiftly and successfully concluded. SlimVirgin 15:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If we're going to do mediation, I would suggest that it be formal. I'd also suggest that editors who wish to partipate may do so. Either way, I might suggest that CJCurrie, G-Dett and I have been the most heavily involved, and would probably be the primary participants for the one side. If necessary, we may be able to communicate concerns or comments from others, if others think this fair. Beyond that, I'll have to defer to CJCurrie a little, who seems to have gone through this before. Mackan79 16:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I would nominate either CJ or Mackan, both of whom have greater gifts of diplomacy than I do. When I come across substantive, patiently detailed posts with no trace of personal bile dismissed as "trolling," I lose patience quickly.

Between CJ and Mackan – Ashley would also be a good choice, now that I think of it – it's a toss-up. CJ has the edge on experience, and he has a deep knowledge of the subject, so if he's willing that would be great.--G-Dett 16:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You, Ashley, AbenYosef, Itsmejudith, others, I think anyone who wants to participate is really entitled, or else it probably can't be a mediation. Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable as a substitute for either CJCurrie or you, based on the amount and value of each of your recent contributions. Nevertheless, I think at least the three of us should participate, as well as any others (of course within reason) who would like to do so.Mackan79 18:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy with CJCurrie. As for a second party, Jmabel has made the next greatest number of contributions to the article after CJCurrie. (The editors with the highest number of contributions are, in order, SlimVirgin, Jayjg, CJCurrie, and Jmabel.) Alternatively, as Ian Pitchford made the most recent substantive edit that attracted opposition, he'd be a good alternative to Jmabel. He's an editor who's known for his serious contributions in general. SlimVirgin 16:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd actually like very much for G-Dett to contribute as well, but will of course defer if she doesn't wish to. I think she has a very valuable perspective, though, and a lot of expertise, which could only help. I'm also simply not sure limiting the mediation to merely four people, in the hope that they'll represent all opinions on these issues, is really the best approach. My experience is that mediation normally involves more people. Regarding SlimVirgin's opinions on the editors who should represent the opposing side in the mediation, I think there are fairly widespread concerns here about various editors' behavior, but that we'll probably have to move beyond this if we'd like for this to be succesful. I'll say straight-forwardly that I think the mediation is very important, and that I would very much want to be involved, as I think any editor in good standing who has been involved here is entitled to be. Mackan79 18:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I would find that very difficult. What we want is for the content issues to be sorted out, not for another long drawn-out series of arguments to take place, and I hope you share that desire. I'm certain you could communicate your concerns to CJCurrie and whoever else is chosen. SlimVirgin 18:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the situation is unavoidably difficult at this point. Pretty clearly, I think the three people who have been the most involved over the entire course of the current dispute are CJCurrie, G-Dett and myself. I understand the situation has become uncomfortable, but I'm not sure there is a valid basis for excluding any of the three of us from participating. I also don't think we have any right to rule out the involvement of any others without giving them time to respond. I would invite others to respond, but I think in fairness, each side should decide how they want to approach this, and then the two sides should decide whether they agree. I do hope we can make this work out. Mackan79 18:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

<-- It isn't true that you've been mostly involved. This problem goes back at least a year, and you only became involved a few weeks ago. You may recall that you arrived here after I tried to broach the subject with you on Talk:Antisemitism that you seemed to be focused on adding negative material to articles about Jews, even though you appeared not to be familiar with the topics you were editing, and how you seemed to be convinced that you, and only you, were capable of neutrality. I told you that worried me. I wrote the following (two posts combined):

Your edits are often POV and, more importantly, show no knowledge of the subject matter you're editing. In addition, you seem to focus on Jews. That raises certain questions, and they are legitimate questions, not only about the editor, but also about content. You're asking people to spend time answering your questions on talk, which are often wrong-headed because you haven't read the literature, and although this is very time-consuming, you expect them to do it without a peep. If they don't, you start reverting on the grounds that no one is replying to you, and you ask other people with no knowledge of the subject to join in reverting with you in order to keep it going. You then complain that people are unjustly suspicious of you. Please think about the reasonableness of that position ... We have a lot of people turning up at these articles claiming to have a monopoly on neutrality. Often, they wear their lack of knowledge as a badge of neutrality, arging that, given they know nothing about the topic, they couldn't possibly be POV. They insist their POV is simply common sense, common knowledge, NPOV. One example of someone at New antisemitism who feels they are a model of NPOV: this person changed the description of a certain lawyer who complained about new antisemitism from "a leading litigation lawyer" to who has since moved to Israel." A Jew, in other words, so bear that in mind.

This is the kind of editing we see at these articles from people who know nothing about the subject, and who for reasons best known to themselves focus on negative portrayals of Jews or Israel. Perhaps you'll allow that people who work on these articles a lot develop certain instincts about editors which, while I'm sure they're not always correct, are by no means always wrong either.

That was at 06:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC). Your response was to turn up here, an article you had never edited before, but which you knew I had edited a lot, 10 hours later at 16:15, 23 January (UTC).

I also wrote to you: "If you really want good faith to be restored, you have to help it on its way." Following me to yet another article related to Jews that you'd never edited before was an odd response, to put it mildly. As a result, I really don't want to continue the dialogue. You can communicate your concerns to CJCurrie, who is very familiar with the issues by now. SlimVirgin 19:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Mediation generally involves multiple parties, no? Slim, are you envisioning just you and CJ? I don't really foresee long drawn-out arguments one way or the other; indeed the pattern in the past hasn't been free-for-alls but rather non-participation. I'm not sure what "trolling" kept Slim away from Mel's informal mediation last time. Shortly before that petered out, Mel posted this: "I'm afraid that things have stalled; Mackan79 has done a sterling job characterising one side of the debate, but it's been nearly a week and there's nothing for the other side. Could someone provide a similar account of the CJCurrie, G-Dett, GraceNote, Pertn, Catchpole, Itsmejudith, and Mackan79 side please?" Leifern did produce a short account thereafter, but there was nothing from the editors most active in that dispute.

In any case, I thought we were discussing who would be the "lead" spokesman for each side, not confining the mediation process entirely to two people. I would like myself to participate, and I feel very strongly that Mackan should be present if he wants to. He has a proven track record for courteous debate, unfailing compliance with WP:AGF, and in the last, abortive mediation attempt he did an excellent job of "writing for the enemy." --G-Dett 19:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that each "side" should choose two representatives who have contributed either regularly or substantively to the article, so that mediation is efficient and swift. SlimVirgin 19:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I was posting at the same time as Slim's penultimate, so I hadn't yet read her blistering attack on Mackan79. I'm slightly reeling from it. I really don't know what to say, except that the insinuations of antisemitism on his part are grossly unwarranted and unworthy of an editor of her experience. Put it down to flared tempers. Water under the bridge and all; if Mackan is still willing to accept Slim as an interlocutor in mediation, then it's all the evidence anyone could ask for of his consummate wiki-diplomacy. I'm crossing my fingers that this can go somewhere, all things considered.--G-Dett 20:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't put words in my mouth. SlimVirgin 20:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The words I'm talking about are on the page: "Your edits are often POV and, more importantly, show no knowledge of the subject matter you're editing. In addition, you seem to focus on Jews. That raises certain questions, and they are legitimate questions, not only about the editor, but also about content... This is the kind of editing we see at these articles from people who know nothing about the subject, and who for reasons best known to themselves focus on negative portrayals of Jews or Israel..." "you seemed to be focused on adding negative material to articles about Jews, even though you appeared not to be familiar with the topics you were editing...I told you that worried me."

The word I used for this was "insinuation." It was accurate.--G-Dett 20:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Do not quote me out of context! Really, this is exactly the problem. There it is, in a nutshell. This is my last response to you. SlimVirgin 22:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

"Out of context" – weak beer, Slim. What this is "in a nutshell" is rhetorical deniability, a little game of deploy and disown; you want a little cloud of suspicion to hang around Mackan's motives, but you don't want to be seen as the one who engineered it. Don't play word games with me, Slim. You never win, and you just end up feeling frazzled and looking foolish.--G-Dett 22:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully, Slim, I think if you're going to post this type of comment here that you really have an obligation to discuss the matter. I am truly and fundamentally sorry that you have derived this view of my editing, if is truly the view that you hold. In fact, I have made an extraordinary effort to edit civilly and in good faith with you, as I don't even know that our political views are that far apart (not that this should matter).

In reference to your quotation above, I have to note a number of things. First is that the discussion we were having at that time in fact related specifically to whether the Antisemitism article should contain a dab link at the very top to this very page. I posted a comment on Talk:Antisemitism asking if this wasn't problematic, due to the controversial nature of this concept. I did not delete the link. I simply asked if, due to the controversiality of the subject, the link might not better be placed by the corresponding section in the article. I would really hope that anyone reading this could briefly check out the discussion to show the earnestness of my question, and the lack of any intent to bias the article in any way. ] I would particularly note that Jayjg eventually agreed to remove the link, without my ever having deleted it, but only once having attempted to make it stronger after another editor's attempted compromise.

So in response to the question you pose again above, then, about why I would subsequently make an edit on New Antisemitism where I knew you had been editing, I tried to explain at that time (responding also to your statement that I had claimed never to have read about this topic):

When did I say that? It's not true at all. My edit on New Antisemitism was a concilliatory attempt toward a compromise, suggesting that if we simply combine the first two paragraphs, it would help clarify the concept such that the dab link here (On Antisemitism) might be ok. Please WP:AGF, I'm trying very hard to work nicely with you. I'm also interested in these subjects, though, and have read and studied and discussed them a great deal with people of all varying viewpoints, and actually, think I'm pretty well-equipped to discuss neutrality on these issues. So please don't expect me to simply go away. The Middle East is interesting, you know, for a lot of reasons. I almost have to say, though, if it's people with well-established credentials you want, isn't this kind of a peculiar medium? My understanding was that on WP, you have to be willing to discuss nicely even with complete idiots. Mackan79 17:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

to which you responded:

Fair enough, but I repeat my plea that your interest in Jewish issues — New antisemitism isn't really, or certainly isn't only, about the Middle East — be accompanied by some serious reading, and not just what's available on Google, so that frustration is minimized and good faith easier to assume. SlimVirgin 17:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Now, unfortunately, in your post above, you seem to have completely forgotten all of this. You now claim that I have been stalking you all this time, and that this is solely how I wound up editing on this page. But how is this even remotely plausible, when the whole discussion on Antisemitism was about this very article, and whether it should be linked to in such fashion? I simply don't understand. Moreover, you now make the even stronger claim that I "seemed to be focused on adding negative material to articles about Jews" on Misplaced Pages. But really, what on earth are you talking about? Are you talking about my suggestion that the Dab link be removed? Are you talking about my suggestion that New Antisemitism has to do with anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel? You must realize that this is an extremely serious accusation, and I'll say one that I categorically and absolutely deny. Can I please ask that you reconsider your evidence, and either present it to me or kindly admit that you may have jumped to a hasty conclusion?

Based on your statement above, I think your thoughtful response is really necessary. Mackan79 20:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I really can't, and don't want to, get into this. You recently turned up at Gillian McKeith, an article I had edited a lot and you hadn't edited at all. You'll doubtless have an explanation, but given we have over a million articles, it's odd that I keep seeing your name shortly after I've edited something. But regardless, I don't care. I just don't want to be involved in whatever it is.

I'm happy to go for mediation, but I won't spend any more time in pointless debates such as this one. I think both "sides" should choose two representatives, and everyone involved must be acceptable to all four parties. Then it'll happen quickly and efficiently, which is surely what everyone wants. SlimVirgin 22:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Slim, it appears that what you want is to be able to throw out absolutely anything about absolutely anybody, and then simply go on as if nothing happened. At some point, I'm afraid that isn't possible.

Despite your denial to G-Dett, your statement above was that this all started when you broached the topic with me that I "seemed to be focused on adding negative material to articles about Jews, even though you appeared not to be familiar with the topics you were editing." You then repeated a number of previous insinuations about my motives to the same effect. You further suggested that my response to this was to start following you around and reverting you. As I laid out above, however, these allegations are not only completely baseless, but a complete misrepresentation of our previous interaction. Now, you apparently think you don't have to say anything further about this, or apologize, or explain, or waste any more time on the matter.

Well, I'm sorry to say I disagree. As I've said here before, I know that there are bigoted editors who show up on WP, and I know that they often focus on these articles, and I don't blame you for harboring suspicions. If you're going to edit on Misplaced Pages, though, I think you need to be able to tell one user from another. As part of your argument here, you're saying you should not have to deal with me in mediation, because you think I've shown some pattern of objectionable behavior. Your central thesis to this is that I've shown some pattern of adding "negative material to articles about Jews." I'm sorry to say I've put up with a lot here, but this is one argument I simply can't handle. I'd like to ask you again to please support this, or to look through my contributions again, and please reconsider and apologize.Mackan79 04:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hold things up any longer, but I need this issue resolved, which has gone on for far too long. Slim, I'm serious about this, and I'm asking you again to apologize. Specifically, I'd like you to acknowledge that, despite your comments, you have absolutely no evidence of me ever adding "nagative material to articles about Jews," and that whatever your reasons, the comment was mistaken. If you will acknowledge this and apologize, I would be glad to move beyond previous concerns to the proposed mediation. If you don't, I am taking this matter to dispute resolution. Mackan79 05:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Mackan79, you keep showing up at articles SV is editing and you've never edited before, or commenting about her actions on various boards. Your opinions when you show up in these places are almost always diametrically opposed to hers, or critical of her actions, regardless of your many explanations of how you innocently ended up there. Her opinions of your editing have no doubt formed based on that. In addition, your edits at Zionism, anti-Zionism, Folke Bernadotte, New antisemitism, Religious antisemitism, Rashi Kalidi, Joseph Massad, Jews for Jesus, John Mearsheimer, etc. tend to minimize or downplay the views of Jewish/Zionist groups (or promote the views of anti-Zionists), and downplay any accusations of antisemitism or even anti-Israel bias; here's a classic example from one of your early edits: Here's another where the virtually unanimous rejection of Jews for Jesus across Jewish denominations is watered down, and all sorts of footnotes supporting this point and similar ones are bizarrely removed: . You can't stop someone from forming opinions about you, especially if you seem to be following them around and opposing them and/or promoting a specific viewpoint on all sorts of articles. Now please, give it a rest, and get on with the business of improving the encyclopedia. That is what you're here, for right? Thanks. Jayjg 12:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Jay, I think it's Slim who needs to give it a rest. Mackan79 has been unfailingly polite in the face of her personal abuse. In response to this courteous note from Mackan79 about how mediation should proceed, she unleashed a blistering personal attack with her trademark bad-faith insinuations of antisemitism, and now refuses to answer Mackan's objections or otherwise deal with the fallout from this gross breach of WP:CIVIL, WP:PA, WP:AGF, and WP:TROLL. This is pure hit-and-run, badly disguised as devotion to "the business of improving the encyclopedia." Stop smearing other editors, Jay, stop abusing your admin powers, and stop trivializing antisemitism and other serious issues.--G-Dett 14:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

G-Dett, please review WP:CIVIL. By the way, accusations that someone is "abusing their admin powers" is indeed a serious issue. Jayjg 14:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So are calculated, bad-faith insinuations of antisemitism. I think the irony of you quoting WP:CIVIL at this point in the discussion is self-evident.--G-Dett 14:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to retract the comment about Jay abusing his admin powers, and apologize for it. Not because it's serious but because it's wrong. I've never known him to use his admin powers to leverage content disputes. The other charges I've made here are accurate, and I stand by them.--G-Dett 14:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I haven't accused anyone of antisemitism either. Perhaps you could next withdraw that accusation. Jayjg 15:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No. You quite routinely traffic in that, Jay. Just last night you tried to smear me with another editor's (alleged) Holocaust denial, and you are right here right now backing up Slim's unwarranted insinuations about Mackan with further unwarranted insinuations of your own. Rather than pressing for retractions, you ought to review WP:AGF, and consider moreover whether serious discussion of a serious issue, antisemitism, is well served by phony invocations of it.--G-Dett 15:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I "routinely traffic in that"? Please quote me accusing someone of antisemitism, or calling someone an antisemite. There should be many such statements, if I "routinely traffic in that". Otherwise, we might have to broaden this "false accusation" case to include your false accusations against me. Jayjg 15:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Jay, here's where you explicitly accused me of being an apologist for antisemitism ("attempt to excuse antisemitism"), and followed it up with the unmistakeable insinuation that I was myself an antisemite ("all antisemites try to excuse their antisemitism"). Other editors pressed you to explain yourself after this wild attack on me, but you stonewalled, the way you're helping Slim to stonewall now. Last night, as you'll remember, you tried to smear me with another editor's (alleged) Holocaust denial. And right now, as I've said (and I don't need to supply the diffs, just scroll up this very screen til you find it), you're backing up Slim's unwarranted insinuations about Mackan with further unwarranted insinuations of your own.

But I have a feeling you're now going to play a game of direct quotation. You're going to say, "G-Dett, show me where I've said so-and-so 'is an antisemite'." You played this game last night when you pretended that Humussapiens's charge that "when it comes to Israel and Jews some users lose any sense of rationality" did not amount to an insinuation of antisemitism. It's a game of rhetorical deniability, and it doesn't fool anybody.--G-Dett 16:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So that's the best you've got; I kinda sorta said something peripherally related to antisemitism that if you squinted your eyes and tilted your head right, you might be able to interpret as applying to you in some way. Sorry, that's not good enough when you claim that someone "routinely traffic(s) in that". Jayjg 18:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I should have mentioned, you also routinely traffic in limp, unconvincing denials.--G-Dett 18:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You make my point for me. Thanks! Jayjg 18:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently writing a response to Jayjg. Slim, if you'd like to apologize, the offer remains open. Mackan79 13:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Give me a break Mackan, Jayjg and Slimvirgin have infinitely more cause to demand an apology from you than you have to demand one from them. You appear to be consciously following them around and going out of your way to provoke conflicts. Your actions are simply not productive no matter how one looks at it.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 17:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Mackan, you've been misinterpreting Slim's actions pretty much from the first time you encountered her, and you're unlikely to get any traction here, because, simply stated, you are wrong. I told you this back in December when you accused her of wikistalking you; your response has quite clearly been to do exactly that to her. I strongly suggest you change course here. --jpgordon 15:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be a couple of issues intermingling here; a current dispute over content, which is related to a very long-standing meta-equilibrium between opposing points of view expressed on the page, which has also caught flame into a (multi)personal grudge match. I find myself in agreement with (see next subsection) both SV that "the points in dispute are fairly limited", and with CJCurrie that "Recent discussions ... have addressed questions of definition that were never fully resolved by past efforts at mediation." Perhaps the only way to attain some degree of stability was to refrain from attempting to fully resolve the issue, and to leave it unresolved; the question then is limited to how to introduce/summarize the topic without leaning towards either side. Gzuckier 15:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, "how to introduce/summarize the topic" is one of those vexing questions that has yet to be resolved. CJCurrie 23:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't funny the last time I edited over here and it didn't get any better. "here I should have mentioned, you also routinely traffic in limp, unconvincing denials." - which amounts to a personal attack without any pretense of argumentation. --tickle me 21:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the presentation. The "argumentation" you missed was this: the editor in question often insinuates that those he clashes with on Israel-related pages are motivated in some way by antisemitism (one example given was this); as the unmistakeable stink of these insinuations fills the room he innocently disowns them, in terms that are weakly contrived and unconvincing (e.g.). This is a serious problem, not a gratuitous personal attack; it needs to be addressed.--G-Dett 22:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Basis for Above Request for SlimVirgin’s Apology

Jay, you're absolutely right that I can't stop someone from forming opinions about me, and I have no intention of doing so. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about long-standing comments and actions which are 1.) Abusive 2.) In violation of WP policy, and 3.) False. The idea that you (not SlimVirgin, to whom I can directly respond) can go through all of my edits and try to pick out certain ones to justify her accusations unfortunately cannot resolve that situation. In that regard:

1. Contrary to continuing statements, I need to make extremely clear here that I have not at any time even remotely followed SlimVirgin around Misplaced Pages, as I explained to her above. In fact, it has been almost spectacularly the opposite, as I recently pointed out to her here. That is, while she has falsely accused me of following her to this article (ridiculous per my response above) and to Gillian McKeith (ridiculous, per here, some of the instances of her following me to articles she had never edited before to oppose me, revert me, and antagonize me include as recently as here and here, after having agreed to stop doing so here after previous incidents here and here. I should say, these were all after our editing relationship had become strained, and she should know I would find these activities provocative.

In fact, these are not the only examples, however, and should be noted to go back to our first conflict on WP, after which she immediately followed me to Folke Bernadotte, the last article I had heavily edited, and an article she had never edited before, to revert me three times in less than a half hour, without reading the material,, , , , and subsequently getting me blocked. Notably, I asked her for a sign of peace after this, which she not only rebuffed, but then returned later to Folke Bernadotte to do literally the exact same thing again, (noting particularly here, here, and here, where her actions toward me were strongly questioned by other respected editors on the page, including also on her talk page here.)

Note then that the issue did not stop there, however, but continued with the other pages I noted at the outset. Recent examples included here and here, after having agreed to stop doing so here.

2. Comparatively, then, the evidence that I have followed SlimVirgin around is literally non-existent. I haven’t, and in fact have made a concerted effort to avoid her, not commenting in many places where I would have liked to. What you have shown here, primarily, is that I indeed have an interest in these issues that predates any involvement with SlimVirgin. First, note that you list at least 4 articles on these issues I edited before interacting with her in any way. Second, note the percentage of them which actually involve Slim, considering her overall presence in this area and on WP. In fact, of the 9 articles Jay mentions me editing on, only 2 could even possibly have involved my following Slim, when even then, the charge is completely implausible as noted above. In the end, this is an example of just an extremely false accusation having been parading around so much that people start to assume it must be true, due to my previous attempts to simply overlook the accusations (which go on, but which I’m trying not to delve into too deeply).

3. Having made these accusations, you then state that SlimVirgin’s comments are defensible because my edits “tend to minimize or downplay the views of Jewish/Zionist groups (or promote the views of anti-Zionists), and downplay any accusations of antisemitism or even anti-Israel bias,” citing then specifically this and this edit. This, then, is your substantive defense of Slim’s accusation. Four responses:

a. First, your comment here is extremely different from what Slim said, which was to repeat her “concern” that I “seemed to be adding negative material to articles about Jews,” as the reason I should not be allowed to participate in mediation. I should say, despite Slim’s later protestation, her comment is not an insinuation at all, but a very direct and factual accusation.

b. Second, your statement that my edits “tend to minimize or downplay the views of Jewish/Zionist groups” is simply meaningless. If it has come to this point, I am a moderate, secular American liberal, and my editing is entirely consistent with that position, although I try very hard not to display a point of view. Since, by itself, this is merely an accusation regarding garden-variety POV, though, I will simply point that out.

c. Third, your statement that my edits tend to “downplay any accusations of antisemitism or even anti-Israel bias” is simply false. In that regard, I might point to many attempts I have made to bring about compromises, as well as other edits I have made, partially to show my good faith. A few examples might include here here, here, and here (creating the War Refugee Board). If your argument, on the other hand, is that I am editing to reduce accusations of antisemitism more often than I am arguing to increase them, that is in fact probably true, but reflects largely the situation I tried to explain to Slim here, as well as what should be pretty clear by now, that yes, I find certain aspects of the concept of New Antisemitism concerning (though I do not reject the concept, as you have falsely stated, and I have clarified to be incorrect). I think I did a better job of explaining myself on that here and here. Again, though, I just don’t see how that is somehow out of the bounds of acceptable opinion or actions on Misplaced Pages, such to justify either Slim’s treatment of me or her most recent comments

d. Fourth, regarding your specific examples that you’ve taken out of everything I’ve done here, I think they’re consistent with everything I’ve just said. In the one, John Mearsheimer, I removed a long quote-farm of allegations which struck me as clearly unencyclopedic. This was before I was even editing on contentious articles here, but I’d note further that the current section appears to be exactly as I left it many months ago. In the other, on Jews for Jesus, I combined a string citation of some 20 sources for a single proposition, and reduced it to the 15 which seemed appropriate and relevant. The fact that these are the most controversial edits you can find of mine, I believe, is a crucial point here.

All together, then, we have three crucial points which I think are very clear, but have simply been too complicated to previously point out. 1.) No, I have not followed or harassed SlimVirgin in any way, but in fact have seriously tried to avoid her. This simply cannot excuse her statement. 2.) In fact, SlimVirgin’s treatment of me shows a long history of mistreating me in much more severe fashion than she could ever even suggest of me. This must be taken into account for a number of reasons. Finally, my actual complaint here: 3.) Slim’s accusation regarding her “concern” that I “seemed to be adding negative material to articles about Jews,” and to repeat this so prominently here, is grossly false, grossly inappropriate, and requires some sort of response from her, not further accusations about my motives for editing on Misplaced Pages.

Finally, as an effort to move forward here: I am willing to believe that SlimVirgin truly isn’t aware of the extent her actions toward me have appeared antagonistic, and even that she truly believes I have been going out of my way to give her a hard time (although, upon considering it now, I would hope she would also think how quickly she assumed bad faith, even stating that she herself intended to initiate dispute resolution ). In that regard, my ultimate request here is really only one thing: that Slim apologize for her recent statement on this page, a comment which she and nobody else has managed to justify in any way. I'll even point out that in response to G-Dett here, Slim suggests that G-Dett's assessment of the situation, which is also mine, somehow misrepresents what Slim intended to say. Perhaps, then, this need only be clarified. Having received no explanation so far, however, nor defense, nor support, nor apology, I find the situation very concerning, and hope that others will understand why I believe this requires resolution now, rather than again waiting until some later time. Mackan79 19:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Having said my piece, I'm somewhat concerned this has turned into such a behemoth as to prevent our further work on the page, or other articles. I want to be clear that this is really my worst case scenario. Slim, I don't know what you think of this -- I see you've deleted my request for an apology on your talk page -- but if there is anything you can say toward reconciling this, even while defending your actions as entirely appropriate, my hope would be that we could recognize this as a personal dispute, and one that should, in this setting, be surmountable.

I might add, Jayjg made a comment, though he somewhat weakened it, that "Perhaps everyone should simply withdraw their accusations, avoid commenting about editors, and move on to editing articles instead. This kind of drama is not helpful to Misplaced Pages." This would truly be my best case scenario. Despite the various eyes now all looking at this, my suggestion then might be that we delete this whole section, renew our dedication to civility, and move on, by my preference with anybody taking part in mediation that would like to be, if such a mediation can be engineered. Mackan79 21:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

CJCurrie's response

I am willing to act as a representative in formal mediation, if this is the will of other participants. However, I have some concern with statements made by SlimVirgin here and here. I think we can agree that "another long drawn-out series of arguments" is not in anyone's interest, but I must question whether in fact "the points in dispute are fairly limited".

Recent discussions (particularly those involving the introduction) have addressed questions of definition that were never fully resolved by past efforts at mediation. If the current process is to be successful, I submit that it will need to explore such questions in a clear and open manner.

I am not making this suggestion to poison the atmosphere, or bog down the process before it can begin. Important questions have been raised as to the relative importance of "convergence from three directions", "the role of Israel and Zionism", &c. These questions cannot be ignored by those seeking to improve the quality of the article.

In the past, I have found SlimVirgin and her allies reluctant to explore questions of definition in any real detail. I am concerned that an unduly narrow focus in the next mediation will leave important questions unanswered, and prove unsatisfactory to several parties. Our mediation should proceed at a timely pace, but should not refrain from addressing unresolved questions that have previously vexed us.

Accordingly, I would ask SlimVirgin to answer the following question: what issues should formal mediation address? It may be that I have misinterpreted your approach to the matter, and that our respective positions are not particularly divergent. The matter should be clarified as soon as possible.

I have one other concern to raise at this time. Recent discussions on this page have become increasingly polarized between two rival camps, and assumptions of good faith have long since broken down. I am not convinced that a mediation committee consisting entirely of participants from these discussions will succeed at breaking the impasse, and I believe that at least one member of any such committee should be an informed, neutral outsider. Do others agree? CJCurrie 01:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer to discuss the details once we begin mediation, if we do begin it, because the mediator will want to draw up the structure. Not sure what you mean by "committee." My suggestion is that we choose four people: two from (broadly) the camp that feels NAS may be a real phenomenon, two from (broadly) the camp that feels it may not be. Those four people then submit a RfM, which may or may not be accepted, and it's taken from there. SlimVirgin

Thank you for clarifying this point. For some reason, I was under the impression that you were proposing a binding mediation committee, with two representatives chosen from each side.

I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of excluding some contributors from formal mediation, and I do not believe that SlimVirgin's comments about "trollish contributors" are either accurate or appropriate to the discussion. Nonetheless, I'm prepared to accept this approach if others believe it's the best way to move forward. CJCurrie 02:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I am proposing a binding mediation, insofar as any mediation is binding, via the medcom. Or rather, I thought that's what you were proposing. We should choose a number of editors to represent each "side", bearing in mind that each participant must be acceptable to every other participant, because mediation is voluntary and no one can be forced into it. My suggestion is two per side. Anyway, let us know when you've decided. SlimVirgin 01:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe I've already stated my position: I'm skeptical as to the wisdom of limiting the number of involved parties, but will accept this method if others deem it appropriate. CJCurrie 04:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Each participant has to agree or else it can't go ahead. Let us know when you've decided who to put forward. SlimVirgin 05:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Other responses

I'd like to participate, and I think it's very clear that previous abortive mediation efforts have failed because of too little participation rather than too much. If it must be two, however, I think CJ and Mackan would be the most effective, for the reasons previously stated.--G-Dett 03:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The word "trollish" seems to be suffering some abuse of its own. You know: when trolls are everywhere, they're nowhere... I'm also unclear why some contributors to this page are being judged by their behavior on other pages. In any event, mediation is a good idea because it will prevent one of the sides in this debate from obstructing the discussions by not responding to arguments. I agree CJ and Mack would be effective representatives of the other side, but, like G-Dett, would like not to be excluded from making occasional contributions to the mediation effort. --Abenyosef 03:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for not being able to comment further at the moment, for the reasons stated above. I hope to rejoin this discussion shortly. Mackan79 05:37, 16 March 2007 (UTC

Formal Mediation

Based on CJCurrie's suggestion above in response to Crum375, is there an interest in taking this page to formal mediation? Personally, I'm open to either route: that, or unprotecting the page and continuing to try to hash things out for the time being. Many of these issues are smaller, which may make mediation difficult. There's also a serious breakdown in commmunication which needs to be addressed one way or another, though. Perhaps to move this along people could weigh in. Mackan79 12:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm open to either as well. I think until we've heard from Slim, Jay, et al it will be difficult to know how to proceed.--G-Dett 15:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not know what's customary here, but their lack of interest with regards to the mediation by Mel Etitis was quite striking. I do not understand why, and I won't speculate. I think a formal mediation may be the only way to stop this low intensity edit-warring and communications break down that is going on now. pertn 09:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear...(GA nom)

This article appears to of been in a large edit war before the page was fully protected, does this page need to be put on hold to work it out for a week, or is this problem going to be proceeding for quite awhile in mediation? It might be better to just wait until the article is at least more or less how most people want it rather than have it be nominated as a GA, since it may change greatly if there's an edit war or mediation going on. Homestarmy 22:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It won't change greatly, Homestarmy; the points in dispute are fairly limited. SlimVirgin 22:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Moving "arguments" to the end of the article

As a reader (and former active editor of this page) who is coming to this article with fresh eyes, I find the section "Arguments for and against the concept" distracting. The average reader wants a quick, general overview. Split articles allow for extended analysis and detail. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but moving the arguments section to the end would allow the general reader to put one foot in and test the waters, before wading in up to their neck. —Viriditas | Talk 07:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That section is the substance of the article. SlimVirgin 23:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a good example of what happens when the writer forgets about the reader. The lead describes the three political directions where the New antisemitism originates: the left, the far-right, and Islamism. And yet, those sections are buried at the bottom of the article, while the arguments (really just a criticism section) appear after the history section. The arguments section should be merged into political directions, and the history of the term should appear below it. Criticism should split out into its own section, at the end. I don't expect a single editor on this page to agree with me, due to the entrenched warfare I've seen for the last year. I'm just letting you folks know that you are alienating the readers with the current layout. But hey, keep writing for yourselves, since the audience no longer matters. After all, it isn't like this is an encyclopedia or anything... —Viriditas | Talk 06:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The arguments aren't a criticism section. The article has been written without a criticism section because pro and anti is too simplistic (and criticism sections are generally not a good idea anyway), so the different scholarly opinions have simply been described. Some are clearly pro, some clearly anti, some more nuanced. SlimVirgin 01:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Zombietime

Should we really trust this source for the picture that is given such a prominent place in the article? To me it seems that this may very well be some kind of propaganda outlet or whatever. In my eyes it undermines the credibility of the article to use anonymous sources like this. See: Zombietime . What do you think? Should we replace it as soon as the protection is lifted?pertn 12:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

We've been over that picture at length, many, many times. The picture is an ideal demonstration of the argument regarding this topic, the creator is known, the source is reliable, and permission to use it has been obtained. This is the ideal picture to use. Jayjg 12:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg wrote: " This is the ideal picture to use. " and I am not surprised. It is the ideal picture for underlining your POV and it is from source that probably shares your views. I think dubious propaganda sources like this could be used, but then one should mention the quality of it in the accompanying text. Please review WP:NPOV pertn 13:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

That picture is not unrepresentative of similar posters at similar left-wing demonstrations. Where's the POV problem? If you have photos of left-wing demonstrators remonstrating with those who equate Stars of David with swastikas, you could post that, but none exist. -- TedFrank 13:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pertn, please comment on articles, not on editors. There is no question about the veracity of the poster itself; the artist is known, and has made many similar posters, along with this one. The picture itself has been interpreted in multiple ways; some see it as antisemitic, others as clearly anti-Zionist, not antisemitic. The images touch on many of the themes discussed in the article. That is why it is an ideal picture to demonstrate the article. As for your idea about "mentioning the quality of it in the accompanying text", please review WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Jayjg 13:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

"mentioning the quality of it in the accompanying text" Agreed. A bit clumsy wording on my side there. I was merely thinking that the reader should be warned in some way that this source may not be reliable. A link to the WP article about zombietime, like proposed by TedFrank below here, is about what I had in mind. pertn 13:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The source is completely reliable. It's a photograph and it's been discussed by secondary sources. Enough. SlimVirgin 05:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

collateral issue

The picture caption's outside link to zombietime.com should be replaced with a wikilink to zombietime. TedFrank 13:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Will do, Ted, thanks. SlimVirgin 05:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Schwarz, Solomon M. "The New Anti-Semitism of the Soviet Union," Commentary, June 1949.
2. Pravda, November 21, 1952.

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