Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:08, 18 March 2007

Hello,

It seems we might have gotten off a bad start. Like I said, Misplaced Pages is built on compromise, and I believe the compromise I offered in economics of fascism was more than reasonable. None of your citations were removed. We can either talk about it and reach a decision that we are both satisfied with, or we can keep reverting forever. It's your call... Ruadh 15:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

You should notice that the only thing I removed was your Hitler quote, and the only reason for that was because it could easily be misunderstood when read out of context. Hitler also made numerous statements in support of private property and private enterprise, especially farmers and small businesses. As you point out on your user page, he advocated a "third way" approach. The quote may give the wrong impression that he sided with state socialism, or Marxism, or something like communism, when in fact he was strongly opposed to all those things (and any equality-based ideology in general). Ruadh 15:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not all you removed. You removed the demands on the NAZI program as well. I disagree that the Hitler quote can be misunderstood out of context. He advocated a socialist system where the state directs private enterprise to work for the good of the people instead of being selfish. Laissez-faire capitalism was the enemy and was strangling the population. State control over the means of production is socialism. If anything could be taken out of context it's the Mussolini quote saying that there would be a laissez-faire system. It was not a laissez-faire system except in the begining because Mussolini had to compromise to gain more power. Once he gained more power, he did the right thing and took control over the economy.

Very well then, I will look for other Hitler quotes that we could add in order to clarify his position. "Socialism" is a buzzword that has been used by everyone to mean anything. I'd much rather give a slightly longer but more accurate description, such as "Hitler advocated a private enterprise economy directed by the state to serve the national interest". Remember also that, although Hitler did have economic views, he did not consider them particularly important. Same goes for Mussolini. They were willing to accept any economic arrangement that promoted the good of the nation, as they saw it.

Also, please stop thinking that you could somehow make me go away just be reverting the page over and over again. I am not going away, and I think the compromise I offered is more than reasonable. I'm afraid you will just have to learn to work together with me. Ruadh 08:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very relavant that that quote by in the article. Hitler was anti-laissez-faire. It was a socialist economy. I understand that socialism is a somewhat vague term but that doesn't matter. It was called "national socialism" afterall. The means of production were controlled by the people with the Fuhrer as their representative. Billy Ego 04:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, fine. I've decided to adopt your policy that nothing should be removed from the article if it has a citation. I have shortened the quote a bit, however, because I believe long quotes disrupt the flow of an article. I also found a quote of my own which I believe clarifies Hitler's views:

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property. It is natural and salutary that the individual should be inspired by the wish to devote a part of his income from his work to building up and expanding a family estate. Suppose the estate consists of a factory. I regard it as axiomatic that this factory will be better run by one of the members of the family than it would be by a State functionary... In this sense, we must encourage private initiative."

Notice that I only added a shortened version of this quote into the article. That seemed like the fair thing to do, since I also shortened your quote. I think putting two long quotes side by side would be ugly. Ruadh 10:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be shortened. It's an informative quote that needs a full statement. You're also deleting other things that are sourced like that both national socialism and italian fascism are essentially opposed to laissez-faire. The source says that is an essential to them. Billy Ego 20:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fascist Wikipedians

A tag has been placed on Category:Fascist Wikipedians, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done because the article is a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Category:Fascist Wikipedians is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on ] saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Misplaced Pages, and we ask you to follow these instructions. Happy Editing by Snowolf_CON on 09:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Again you deleted it without giving me a change to vote or respond. And what are you talking about "material"? It's not the posting of "material." It is the creation of a category. I'm going to create it again. "Article"? What article are you talking about. It isn't an article. What you are saying or whatever rule you're talking about can't apply. Billy Ego 02:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion/Archive/September_2006#Category:Fascist_Wikipedians for previous discussion on this topic. -- The Anome 09:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's permitted to be a fascist wikipedian Billy. Good luck though, I wish you every success. Cloveoil 14:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

A tag has been placed on Category:Fascist Wikipedians, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done because the article is a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Category:Fascist Wikipedians is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on ] saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Misplaced Pages, and we ask you to follow these instructions. -- ArglebargleIV 19:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC) The category was recreated again, I've tagged it. -- ArglebargleIV 19:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a vote going on right now so please stop deleting the category. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_March_5 Billy Ego 20:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The vote is a Deletion review. The article is supposed to stay deleted while the discussion about whether to restore it takes place. Besides, it's a discussion, not a vote. -- ArglebargleIV 20:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't meet the criteria for "speedy delete" since the content is my username. That content wasn't there the first time it was deleted. Billy Ego 20:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Quit recreating the category, I have speedy deleted it again. I have explained why it meets the speedy deletion criteria on the deletion review. If you disagree you are free to ask other admins if they feel it did not qualify for speedy deletion. Different users being in the category does not mean something can no longer be speedy deleted, otherwise almost no category would be speedy deletable. VegaDark 21:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So you don't even let others review that hangon notice? You're the dictator of Misplaced Pages? Your claim that a category can be deleted over and over again without a vote or discussion simply because it was deleted once in the past is absurd. And you are going against the grain of the sense of community that Misplaced Pages is supposed to be. Billy Ego 21:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There are rules about this. Others don't have to review it -- an administrator such as VegaDark has been delegated the authority to apply the rules and delete the category if it is called for. I've marked it for deletion for the third time -- please STOP RECREATING THE CATEGORY while the deletion review is in progress! -- ArglebargleIV 21:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What's the harm of recreating it before the review is over? Look. The review is whether to overturn the deletion. To overturn the deletion is going to require a consensus right? So the deck is stacked against me. There should have been a consensus vote IN THE FIRST PLACE to delete it but there wasn't. It's simply being wrongly speedily-deleted. Billy Ego 21:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

There was a consensus vote in the first place, during the September 2006 deletion discussion. The speedy deletes follow from that. -- ArglebargleIV 21:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

NO the speedy delete does not follow from that. It is permissible to recreated articles or categories with the same title as long as the contents are not identical. You are not allowed to speedily delete an article just because the name is the same. Billy Ego 21:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So what you have done by speedily deleting is shifted the requirement of getting a consensus to those that want to not delete it, when the burden should have been on those who wanted to delete it. What you are doing is scamming me. I'm not some moron who doesn't see though what's being done here. Billy Ego 21:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Please do not recreate deleted content

A tag has been placed on Category:Fascist Wikipedians, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done because the article is a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Category:Fascist Wikipedians is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on ] saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Misplaced Pages, and we ask you to follow these instructions.

Please do not recreate deleted content while it is under DRV. When the DRV ends, depending on the resolution of the discussion you may be allowed to recreate the category. But until then, you are not allowed to.--tjstrf talk 21:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Then what is the point of the "hang on" if you're just going to delete it anyway? Obivously you're not giving the hangon discussion a chance so what's the point? Billy Ego 21:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You have to give a valid reason that the CSD does not apply with hangon. For a recreated page a valid hangon argument would be that it was substantially changed from the previous state. It's not, nor can it be since it's a category. --tjstrf talk 21:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Think of the insanity of what you're saying. You're saying that a category can forever be summarily deleted from Misplaced Pages simply because it was deleted once in the past. If that's not true for article names then why would it be true for category names? The contents of the "Category:Fascist Wikipedians" article are NOT identical at all from the first time it was deleted. The contents of that article now is my username. Billy Ego 21:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Categories don't have content in the same sense that articles do, so the name IS the content. The only thing that might make it substantially different would be if you put some detailed message explaining how fascism is different than naziism and the members in the category are not necessarily racists, etc. --tjstrf talk 21:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Right, the name is the content. Since the name is different, the content is different. Therefore, it's not subject to speedy deletion. Billy Ego 22:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's phrase this in the simplest possible manner: In order for it to be avoid being a speedy deletion candidate, a fundamental change in the purpose, subject, or quality of the page must have occurred since the last deletion.

Has your category stopped being a category for the grouping of fascist Wikipedians? --tjstrf talk 22:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Show me what policy says that. Billy Ego 22:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:CSD#G4 states:

"Recreation of deleted material. A copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted via Articles for deletion or another XfD process, provided that the copy is substantially identical to the deleted version and that any revisions made clearly do not address the reason for which the page was deleted. This clause does not apply in user space, to content undeleted per undeletion policy, or if the prior deletions were proposed or speedy deletions, although in this last case, the previous speedy criterion, or other speedy deletion criteria, may apply." (emphasis mine)

Your category was deleted because it groups Wikipedian fascists. This is the "reason for which the page was deleted" that must be addressed before it stops qualifying for speedy deletion.

Therefore, until it stops grouping Wikipedian fascists, it may be deleted ad infinitum. I apologize that you do not like this, but it is policy. Life sucks sometimes. --tjstrf talk 22:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What "sucks" is your flawed interpretation of policy. The article is not substantially identical. It had someone else's username in it. Billy Ego 22:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What possible other way is there to interpret it? Whether your name or another guy's name was in it makes no difference whatsoever to the purpose of the page. If you'd like I can make a post about it on the policy discussion board, or the speedy deletion criteria discussion page. They'll agree with me. --tjstrf talk 22:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

"provided that the copy is substantially identical to the deleted version" it says. Notice there is not an "or" between the two independent clauses but an "and." It doesn't satisfy that duel criteria. It is not substantially identical. Only the title is identical. Billy Ego 22:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is substantially identical: A category for the grouping of Wikipedian fascists. --tjstrf talk 20:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with tjstrf. The speedy deletion was clearly in line with policy; I do think that the policy has, in this case, allowed for an injustice to occur, and is imperfect in that regard. But a category with an additional user is indeed "substantially identical" to its the category without that user. If the original deletion had cited a total absence of members in the category, that would be different. -Pete 20:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

my two cents

Billy, I happened upon this discussion, and would like to weigh in. I will summarize my two points here, but maybe you can direct me to a better place - it seems this discussion is occurring on multiple pages. (1) To the degree that I understand your political views, I disagree with them. (2) I think you are correct that Misplaced Pages policy has been unfairly applied in your case.

Personally, I don't understand why there should be Misplaced Pages USER categories at all, and I don't know what the policy regarding that is. In short, believe those interfering with your attempts to create the category certainly owe you a better explanation than I've seen them give, and may need to follow a better process, and possibly are simply wrong in what they're trying to do. -Pete 22:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that and yes there is a place where it is being discussed, in the "deletion review" Billy Ego 22:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

I wanted to thank you for strongly arguing the point about the Wikipedian Fascists category. I am also a Fascist and would like to be able to use this category. Algabal 19:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully this double standard can be overturned. But the cards are stacked against us. Billy Ego 21:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Hello, I've left a suggestion on the DRV page regarding the category. Just wanted to draw your attention to it, I hope it helps. Regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 22:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It does. Thanks a lot. Billy Ego 21:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/National Socialism. For the Mediation Committee, ^demon This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Disruptive editing

How goes it, RJII? I do hope you are well. Your use of libertarian sources is not helping your cover, however. I would strongly suggest that you refrain from Disruptive editing, which includes reverting for no reason. -- Nikodemos 03:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You think I'm someone named RJII? If that's what you want to believe then I'll play along. But don't think for a second that I don't know that you and Ruadh are the same person. You're making it look like you're someone new coming in to revert things that Ruadh has been reverting. I believe you can get in serious trouble for that. Billy Ego 03:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

If you'd like me to start rattling out evidence, just let me know. Billy Ego 03:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not making it look like anything. Let me state it right now: I am not someone new to those articles. I have edited both of them in the past. Nor do I claim to have two people on my side. User:Ruadh seems to have not edited anything for a long time. It is definitely just you and me, at least for the moment. If Ruadh were to come back and I supported him, that would be a different story. But since he is not here, the point is moot.

Now, how about we discuss your edits and the reasons for your removal of sourced information? -- Nikodemos 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

How about you cut the bullshit? Isn't funny how going through the records it can been that Ruadh and Nikodemos can be gone for several days then both show up at the same time? Keep it up if you want more evidence. Billy Ego 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't think I won't report it if you don't stop fucking with me either. Billy Ego 03:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting. Using threats to avoid discussion of article content, and attempting to intimidate other users. I wonder what you wish to report me for. According to WP:sock, what is prohibited is not the use of multiple accounts itself, but rather the use of multiple accounts to vote twice, to circumvent 3RR, to avoid blocks or bans, or otherwise make it appear that two people exist when in fact there is only one. I certainly don't remember ever editing an article at remotely the same time as User:Ruadh. I looked over that user's contributions, and there seem to be less than 50 of them. Wow. Such an amazingly active sockpuppet...

Again I urge you to move the discussion towards article content and away from personal attacks. -- Nikodemos 03:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You must think I'm stupid. Let me ask you point blank. Are you or are you not the same person who goes under the name Ruadh? Billy Ego 03:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, this has become very amusing. And if I don't answer? -- Nikodemos 03:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to answer. I already know the answer. But I'd like to see you deny it. I'd also like to see you deny that you have done reversions as both Nikodemos and Ruad on other articles besides the Economics of Fascism article as well. I'd like to see you deny that you've preteneded to be two different people. Can you do it? Billy Ego 03:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

In life, we do not always get what we would like. Let me know when you're ready to talk about article content, by the way. -- Nikodemos 03:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to talk about article content to someone who pretends to be two people to revert his doppleganger's changes. Just know that the evidence is so easy to retrieve. Billy Ego 03:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you see Ruadh here? Do you see Ruadh reverting anything at the moment? There is only one person reverting your changes, and that is myself. The reason I am doing that is because you have removed sourced content, including quotes that contradict your POV. I would like to warn you that intimidation will not help your case. -- Nikodemos 04:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't need help with my case. You can sure of that. Billy Ego 04:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Quick question: Will you discuss article content or just keep reverting? I'm curious to know. Tip: If you actually discuss content, we may arrive at a compromise acceptable for both of us. As far as sockpuppetry is concerned, you know very well where you stand, RJII. -- Nikodemos 04:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll revert. I expect that it is within the rules to revert someone who is using another name to revert back to his version. If I'm sanctioned for too many reverts beause I haven't presented evidence of your duplicity I'll simply provide evidence which is extremely difficult to refute in order to redeem myself. So don't you worry about me. Billy Ego 04:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps then it will be more acceptable to you if I reverted back to my last version of that article rather than the last version written by User:Ruadh? I will happily oblige. -- Nikodemos 04:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

No matter what you do I'm going to revert it because you are an illegitimate user. Billy Ego 04:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Happy reverting, then. Another quick question: Do you accept mediation? -- Nikodemos 04:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course I will. I'll be happy to present all the evidence there. Billy Ego 04:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful. I am curious how accusations of sockpuppetry could have any bearing on a content dispute, though. -- Nikodemos 04:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess we'll find out won't we? Billy Ego 04:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

OK. Enough is enough. If you two wish to bicker on either of your talk pages, that's one thing. But you also now have arguments going on at WP:RCU and WP:AN/I. Enough. You have both made yourselves quite clear. I'm giving this as a warning to both of you. Back off from the arguing on WP:RCU and WP:AN/I. You've both made yourselves clear. Continuing to fill those pages with your arguments is serving neither of you much good. If the arguments on those two pages continue, you will both soon find yourselves with 24 hour enforced cooling off periods. So please, stop it now. - TexasAndroid 18:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, a clerk just dealt with that issue well enough at the WP:RCU subpage. He moved the argument to the talk page of the RCU, and asked that it be continued there, not on the main page. Which makes perfect sense. As for more evidence, I'm really not sure what the point of more evidence is at this point. You've made your request. It's now a question of whether the request will be accepted or not. If this goes further, to a RFC or mediation, or such, then it'll be evidence time.

And As I said on Nikodemos' talk, this is not about silencing you two, or preventing you from communicating (on each other's talk pages). It's about you both getting more and more worked up, arguing on pages that are not appropriate places for arguments.

So, in the end, I'm in no way banning you from either WP:RCU or WP:AN/I. If you feel you need to post more evidence at the checkuser page, do so. But please. If you find yourself debating the evidence with him, take it to the talk page there as soon as possible to avoid cluttering up the RCU page with stuff that really does not belong there. - TexasAndroid 20:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Billy Ego 20:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I just happened to stumble upon a source that speaks positively of fascist economic policies and their long-term effects, and I was wondering two things: (1) would you revert my edits even if I added that source in the article? (2) will you ever be willing to sit down and discuss our differences, or will I have to resort to reverting again? -- Nikodemos 01:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you stop using sockpuppets? Billy Ego 01:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I will ignore the fact that the question is loaded and give you a short answer: Yes. -- Nikodemos 02:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Then go for it. Billy Ego 02:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Good. First, though, I want to see if we can agree to a principle that I call "quote balance". Basically, it goes like this: When there is a controversy supported by quotes, the two sides should agree to limit themselves to an equal number of quotes. In other words, in our case, we should agree on the number of Hitler quotes on the topic of socialism vs. capitalism that we can add to the article, and split them in half. You get half, I get half. It will not do me any good if you have 10 Hitler quotes supporting your view and I have 12 (and likewise it will not do you any good if you have 12 and I have 10). It will only clutter the page. I want to avoid the situation where you add a quote, then I add a counter-quote, then you add a third quote in response and so on until the whole article is just quotes. We will only ever reach agreement if we are satisfied with a balanced article. -- Nikodemos 02:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with agreeing to a "number" of quotes. It should be whatever it takes to make whatever needs to be clear, to be clear. I think you want to add Hitler quotes saying that he supported private property, am I right? If you do that then I have to add quotes showing that this property was still to be controlled for social benefit. Just because people are allowed to have private property it doesn't mean that it is a capitalist system. If the state controls the use of that property for social good then it's not capitalism. Billy Ego 02:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Hitler quotes are a dime a dozen, and I have quite a few. Perhaps we'll just have to see where this goes and trim the quotes afterwards. -- Nikodemos 02:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Fascist category

I have nominated Category:Fascist Wikipedians for deletion, as part of a nomination of multiple related categories. You expressed interest in knowing when the category was up for deletion, and I am notifying you as a courtesy. However, you should know that this is not a vote, and any statement that the category should be kept or deleted ought to be accompanied with a reason why, rather than simply saying that you want it or don't like it. --Random832 13:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

ANI complaint

(copied from WP:ANI)

Even if this is two accounts used by the same person, the timing on the edits is far enough apart that there's no violation of WP:SOCK policy here. There's clearly no WP:3RR and I don't see any sign of attempting to claim an overwhelming consensus of alledged sock accounts or anything.

Merely using two accounts is not a violation; you have to do something with them that would be prohibited if it was one account. Even if this is a sock, they are't doing any such.

Billy, your behavior here appears to be a case of WP:OWN. Please cease and desist. Georgewilliamherbert 19:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The complaint is that sockpuppets are being used to create the illusion that more than one person supports a particular version articles by reverting to that particular version with the Nikodemos account, the Ruadh account, and the 66.9.*.* account. That's a violation of WP:SOCK. It makes it look like more than one person is supporting that version of the article. It doesn't matter on what the timing is. Some of them are on the SAME DAY. It says in the section "Voting and other shows of support" that "In addition to double-voting, sock puppets should not be used for the purpose of deception, distraction, or to create the illusion of broader support for a position than actually exists." What are you telling me to "cease and desist" doing? Billy Ego 19:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm telling you to cease and desist acting like you own those articles. See WP:OWN

I've been through the history on a couple of the articles; I don't see what you're claiming. Please provide edit diffs for the instances where they're editing improperly. Georgewilliamherbert 20:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not acting like I own any articles. I don't know what you're talking about. The evidence of what I'm claiming is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Nikodemos Make sure to look on the "discussion" page there as well. The impropriety is not that they violated a 3RR rule but that they're using sockpuppets to make it look like more than one person supports a particular version of an article. Billy Ego 02:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You say:

I'm not acting like I own any articles. I don't know what you're talking about.

Your pattern of edits suggests otherwise.

In response to the claims you made on ANI and the Checkuser case - you misunderstand the sockpuppet policy. There is nothing in the policy or precedents or expected WP account usage which forbids someone from using multiple accounts, as long as the combined accounts don't vote more than once on a vote, commit more than 3 reversions on an article to a preferred version within 24 hrs, or act in concert to try to affect a consensus. "in concert" means "at the same time". These are accounts where there's no chronological overlap.

There is simply no case here, because there are no violations. Georgewilliamherbert 02:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is a violation. The policy against using sockpuppets to create the illusion of broaders support is not confined to voting issues. Notice that the section in WP:SOCK is entitled "Voting AND OTHER SHOWS OF SUPPORT." In that section it says: "In addition to double-voting, sock puppets should not be used for the purpose of deception, distraction, or to create the illusion of broader support for a position than actually exists." Nikodemoes created the Ruadh sockpuppet to make changes and revert back to those changes when I made an edit. He was also doing the same reversions as the Ruadh sockpuppet with his Nikodemos username (and also with the 69.6.*.* IP). This was using sockpuppets for the purpose of creating the illusion that there was broader support for that version of the article than actually existed. It wasn't multiple people that kept reverting the article. It was one person, Nikodemos. In reality there was no broader support for that version of the article than just him. Anyone who didn't know that he was using sockpuppets would think there was 3 people supporting the reversion. It made it look like I was going against a consensus, but I wasn't. I was only going against him. Understand? Billy Ego 02:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How many admins will it take to convince you that there isn't a violation here?

I understand what you believe happened. You've been very clear about it. That's not a violation of the Sock policy. It seems odd to go to ANI asking for help, and then reject the answer that you get there. Georgewilliamherbert 02:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a right to disagree with your interpretation of policy. I think you're wrong about the policy. It's a violation. I think you're making the mistake of thinking that the policy against creating the illusion of broader support than exists applies strictly to voting. Billy Ego 02:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Collectivism

Thanks for the Nazi propaganda catchup on my talk page. However, I can manage without it. MarkThomas 18:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: "pro-capitalism elites"

See Definition of fascism#Robert Paxton and his book The Anatomy of Fascism. -- WGee 00:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Capitalism is not even mentioned in that definition. Billy Ego 02:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I like

Your comment on your user page. Sadly, I fear you are correct, save in one respect. You will not need to wait for a mob to form, such groups are already here. Cloveoil 01:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked for violating the three-revert rule on Fascism. Please be more careful to discuss your changes rather than engage in an edit war. The duration of the block is 8 hours. Seraphimblade 12:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

I've blocked you for a period of 31 hours for continuing your edit warring across several pages. If you repeat these actions when your block expires, lengthier blocks will result.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 02:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not "edit warring." I'm editing. I have a right to disagree with edits and change them. This is part of Misplaced Pages. How are you defining "edit warring"? How do I contest this? Billy Ego 02:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What's more you reverted the articles to your preferred version then blocked me. You are abusing your power. Billy Ego 02:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Why would others making edits not be considered edit warring? Billy Ego 02:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean? "If you repeat these actions when your block expires, lengthier blocks will result."? If you think you can threaten me to prevent me from editing articles you are sadly mistaken. Billy Ego 02:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

When this block expires I'm complaining about you through official channels so you better have a good story. Billy Ego 02:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Billy Ego (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I was blocked with the totally subjective and meaningless claim that I was "edit warring" by an Administrator who reverted my edits to three articles to his preferred version then subsequently blocked me. I was not "edit warring." I was simply editing articles. If I was "edit warring" then why was no one else edit warring who were also editing with equal frequency as me? I can honestly say that I do not think I was "edit warring" but was exercising restraint in order to not violate the "3 revert" policy. I was discussing things in discussion pages, adding citations to articles, wording things different ways to more accurately reflect the sources. This is just a normal part of Misplaced Pages. Then he says "if you repeat these actions...lengthier blocks will result." What does that mean? How could I know what "actions" this is referring to? I can't believe that someone can be blocked by such subjective claims by an adminstrator and then threatens me that he will block me again for a longer amount of time without giving me any objective standard to determine whether I am "edit warring." How do I know if I'm "edit warring" in his eyes? Was I edit warring in your eyes? I don't see how I could be. Please unblock and let me know how I can know if I'm "edit warring." Or is this just the way Misplaced Pages is supposed to work with one person subjective rule over others ultimately leading to a permanent block because he says I am "edit warring"? And please let me know why I was singled out other than because I identify myself economically as a fascist. Thank you. (See his response below on my discussion page and see why his reasoning for blocking me does not seem rational.) Billy Ego 03:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Decline reason:

While I agree that this is not one of the more egregious cases of edit warring I've seen, the block is (although barely) justified in view of your generally overaggressive editing of Fascism and related articles. WP:BOLD can be taken too far - if you face a substantial content dispute, try and sort it out on the talk page instead of trying to push through your preferred version by force. Apart from that, please WP:AGF with respect to administrators and other users, and note that Misplaced Pages has no justice system, as it is not a state. — Sandstein 09:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

I can tell you that I had no knowledge of your identity as fascist, and I had never editted those articles before today (that I can seriously remember) so "preferred versions" are out of the question. I was merely viewing revert warring between you and others, and especially after you had been blocked for 8 hours today for violating 3RR.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Guy, I had already been punished for violating 3RR which was my first violation ever. I have not violated it since and was not "edit warring." What makes you think you can re-punish me for violating 3RR? I feel like any more edits or reversions that I do again you are going to block me for a longer period of time, just like you said, because you will consider it "edit warring." It is my understanding that reversions, changing wording, adding sources, etc is allowed. How are you defining "edit warring." And why are you punishing me again for violating 3RR when I had already been blocked for that? And why were others doing the same general kind of editing as I have since then were not blocked by you? Is it that you had a prejudice because you had seen that I had recently been punished for violating 3RR? Doesn't my slate start clean after I've been punished? Do I now have less of a right to edit than others and have special restrictions? And how can you legally revert my changes if they weren't a violation of the 3RR? None of this make sense. I apologize for blowing up a little earlier because there may be no malice on your part but I can't help thinking that you are in the wrong here. I can't imagine that Misplaced Pages's justice system would allow this. Billy Ego 04:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Billy Ego also recently appears to have done a 4RR on Nazism plus added some personal threats to User talk:Cberlet - contradicting his statement above that this was his first violation ever. MarkThomas 09:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've never made any personal threat to Cberlet. What are you talking about? Do you think you can get me blocked by just making things up? Well maybe you can since the Misplaced Pages justice system doesn't seem to have any ryhme or reason. And I see a mob is already forming to try to oust the fascist. Billy Ego 15:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a blog, webspace provider, or social networking site

Please remove your political essay from User:Billy Ego, as Misplaced Pages is not Myspace. Your user page may be considered for deletion otherwise. Sandstein 09:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything there that prohibits me from stating my views on my user page. Billy Ego 15:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Try WP:ENC for starters. MarkThomas 16:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

For reference, one place to see the problem with the essay is: Misplaced Pages:User page#What can I not have on my user page?, particularly the limit: "Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Misplaced Pages, wiki philosophy, collaboration, free content, the Creative Commons, etc.". In this case, IMHO the essay is definitely unrelated. So the question hangs on whether it is "extensive". I'm not going to get into that debate, but be aware that people may definitely feel that it is indeed too much. - TexasAndroid 16:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

It is related to Misplaced Pages. I work on the fascism articles so I explain what my POV is. I don't know why it would be more helpful if I kept my POV secret. If you'd rather me start another username and hide myself that can easily be done and you'll never know who the fascist is but I don't know why anyone would want that. Billy Ego 17:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely ] is fully supportive of Billys preference to "help other editors to understand with whom they're working"? Cloveoil 18:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

On that level, I agree, it's quite helpful to know we're dealing with a self-professed Nazi. My father shot people like Billy in a war not so long ago. MarkThomas 19:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

1. A private statement made by Hitler on March 24, 1942. Cited in "Hitler's Secret Conversations." Translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens. Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. 1953. p. 294