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Revision as of 01:42, 19 March 2007 editCarcharoth (talk | contribs)Administrators73,576 edits →Style of introductions: links and line breaks← Previous edit Revision as of 01:48, 19 March 2007 edit undoCarcharoth (talk | contribs)Administrators73,576 edits →[] ?: replyNext edit →
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:::::Two-to-one does not consensus make, but is there some way we can come to an agreement? This is just going to sit around again, and meanwhile we have some hundreds of location stubs that should be put somewhere. Carcharoth? Other project members? --] <sup>]</sup> 17:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :::::Two-to-one does not consensus make, but is there some way we can come to an agreement? This is just going to sit around again, and meanwhile we have some hundreds of location stubs that should be put somewhere. Carcharoth? Other project members? --] <sup>]</sup> 17:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we should create one large inclusive list (alphabetical) of all places/locations at ], despite the fact that Middle-earth is actually in Arda (as Middle-earth has been adopted by Christopher Tolkien to refer to his father's legendarium). The stubs (using ones in Beleriand as an example) that need collected into larger articles could be grouped on ], where their links on the list page would direct. Or they could simply be added to a new section titled "Minor Places in Beleriand" in the ] article. ] 04:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC) I think we should create one large inclusive list (alphabetical) of all places/locations at ], despite the fact that Middle-earth is actually in Arda (as Middle-earth has been adopted by Christopher Tolkien to refer to his father's legendarium). The stubs (using ones in Beleriand as an example) that need collected into larger articles could be grouped on ], where their links on the list page would direct. Or they could simply be added to a new section titled "Minor Places in Beleriand" in the ] article. ] 04:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a good starting point would be to tag Tolkien-related articles for merging. Once we can see what needs merging, a clearer picture might emerge. From the assessment table at top right of this page, I see that there are over 700 unassessed pages. There will be some assessed stub pages that should really be merged, and some stubs that need expanding. How about we create a "merge" template that we stick on the bottom of candidate articles, with a parameter so we can label it with a subject area for merging to? This would also add the articles to a category. This would work in a similar way to the {{tl|tolkien-stub}} template we already have, that adds articles to ]. ] knows a bit about templates, so I'm going to drop him a note. ] 01:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


=== Middle-Earth: Arda or Ennorë? === === Middle-Earth: Arda or Ennorë? ===

Revision as of 01:48, 19 March 2007

Tolkien articles by quality statistics (worklist) :
Tolkien articles by quality and importance
Quality Importance
Top High Mid Low NA ??? Total
FA 1 1 2 4
FL 1 1
GA 9 50 108 66 233
B 9 47 59 115
C 29 75 1 105
Start 128 2 130
Stub 3 3
List 2 6 11 1 20
Category 61 61
Disambig 34 34
File 72 72
Project 1 1
Redirect 2 6 310 318
Template 13 13
NA 1 1
Other 7 7
Assessed 10 61 194 351 500 2 1,118
Unassessed 1 1
Total 10 61 194 351 500 3 1,119
WikiWork factors (?) ω = 1,899 Ω = 3.22
Archive
Archives

If anyone wants to pull out or copy a previous discussion, feel free to to do so. —Mirlen 17:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Shortcut
  • ]

Community

Roll call: Mid-February to March

The mid-January to mid-February roll call was stolen by our friendly pet balrog. Apologies for the delay in updating the project talk page. Please sign your name below. Comments are optional.

  1. Signing in for the first time. I'll see what I might be able to do. Suriel1981 21:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  2. Hello! I'm new - have done some edits on The Hobbit in the past. I am currently unhappy with the number of in-universe perspective articles this project contains. --Davémon 18:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  3. Just updated the talk page and tried to archive it. Could someone check I didn't brush current discussions under the carpet? Also, I left the two sign-ups above in place, as they are the recent February sign-ups. Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  4. Been fairly busy with RL lately, but I'll keep any eye on the project. --Fang Aili 17:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  5. As before, once in awhile I get into an assessing mood; perhaps it'll strike again during this timeframe. --Thisisbossi 22:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  6. Again, I'll attempt to be of assistance. Geekman314 01:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  7. New to WikiProject Middle-earth but planning to work on family trees/templates.--Nimfaelin 06:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  8. Here. Not that active recently... Uthanc 09:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
  9. Still here, though swept up in other projects as well. PKM 18:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  10. Still around. Been doing some Middle-earth list and portal work lately. --CBD 19:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
  11. First sign-in. i recently added info on the talk page to merge gothmog and gothmog(third age) pages. hope i can contribute. Zroberts 05:07, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  12. First sign in as well. 22:13, Soarhead77 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  13. Still here, though sewpt up in other projects at the moment. - PKM 19:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
  14. Still here as well. I've just been super busy with school and work Alataristarion 03:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  15. I'm still lurking out there... LotR 14:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
  16. New to here. Madhava 1947 (talk) 06:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  17. Still doing little things. Dhawk1964 21:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  18. Truly glad to be a part of this great idea and of the Misplaced Pages TolkiendiliIakd87 03:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)User:Iakd87
  19. Signing in again Tttom1 19:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Tttom
  20. First time, glad to help Valaruselinux 22:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Issues

Articles for deletion

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Catherine Karina Chmiel

Artist. Debate relisted Feb 15. --Mereda 17:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Needs expansion... anyone here fluent in Polish, Russian and/or Italian? Uthanc 09:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Kept Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Baillie Tolkien

Concensus so far is to merge. --Fang Aili 14:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Template for deletion notice

Result - kept with extensive changes - the family tree was moved to Tolkien family and the template turned into a navbox to showcase the Misplaced Pages articles on Tolkien family members. Carcharoth 01:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

CFD notice

Black Speech of Mordor user category

This category was just nominated for deletion as part of a large batch: Misplaced Pages:User categories for discussion. IronGargoyle 02:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Native speakers of Quenya and Black Speech

Nonimated by the same user. Uthanc 09:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Black Speech got deleted. Anyway, only Sauron and his minions are native speakers of it... Uthanc 03:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Articles newly made/found

Family templates/Poll

The poll for templates, as of last count, was in favor of Fixed-pitch graphics. Uthanc 04:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Lists versus individual articles

Update needed Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Terminology

There still hasn't been a consensus on terminology, see the archives. Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Lots of stuff in archives

Snipped lots of stuff here that should really be resurrected from the archives and discussion restarted/concluded. Carcharoth 12:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC) In particular:

So let's not lose track of those discussions! Carcharoth 13:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

War of Wrath

I wonder if folks could have a look at what was done here: ? I reverted, since it seemed unsuitable to me for several reasons even aside from the formatting problems. The editor who wrote that section understandably disagrees. If anyone else has an opinion, I would welcome your comments at Talk:War of Wrath. TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've commented (extensively now!) over there. There is a general issue of style, which I will raise below. Carcharoth 01:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Random things

Ive started up the article on the artist/illustrator Catherine Karinia Chmiel (needs improving im getting some info form the person) and added a few things to Peoples of Middle-Earth and Northmen (Middle-earth)

No on seems to b very active atm :( le Dan 19:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Would you like some more work to do? :-) Carcharoth 00:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Lol i wouldnt mind :P is there anything that needs doin that wont require ALOT of work to it? le Dan 18:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
How about looking at the recent changes to Middle-earth and Tolkien articles here: Special:Recentchangeslinked/Portal:Middle-earth/Pages? Save that link on your user page somewhere, and check it when you get the chance, and revert vandalism when you see it. Carcharoth 01:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

A lot of new Ted Nasmith images

Uploaded by our new member Tommy9281, who understandably has only signed up in front (changing instructions there). See if there's any tagging problems... Also, the page really needs updating... might do it myself... Uthanc 14:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

List of locations in Tolkien's legendarium ?

So I was looking over the old discussion here. What kept me from going further was the confusion inherent in trying to divide the geography articles into "Beleriand", "Arnor", "Aman", etc. I personally don't know the legendarium well enough to determine where exactly a location fits, and some locales will undoubtedly belong to more than one. What if we just combined all the location articles into one? The minor locations would get a few lines (whatever is in their current stubs), and the major locations might get one or two lines and "See main article X". This way we can combine all the tiny geography stubs into one article without worrying about putting them in the correct sub-area. It could be named List of locations in Tolkien's legendarium or Geography of Tolkien's legendarium (other options welcomed). What say you? --Fang Aili 16:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think a better structure for the articles and lists is to have them as in a structure of main articles and daughter articles, starting from Middle-earth and Geography of Middle-earth. Then have Aman, and Arda and other 'non-Middle-earth' articles branch off that. Carcharoth 21:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
But is not Middle-earth part of Arda? We would be repeating ourselves by creating Geography of Arda. --Fang Aili 18:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd prefer just one big list also. Someone might be looking for info on 'Avathar', but not know that it was in Aman. I'd be fine calling it 'Middle-earth places', as I consider 'Middle-earth' as much a term for the legendarium as a whole as for the continent of Endor. I don't like the 'Tolkien's legendarium' wording because 'Farmer Giles of Ham', 'Mr. Bliss', and the like could certainly be described as portions of his legendarium. How about, 'Places in the Middle-earth legendarium'. Having large articles on Middle-earth, Arda, Aman, et cetera with links to related areas still makes sense... and a 'Geography' article which explained where the major regions were located in relation to each other might be good also. --CBD 19:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with creating one glossary at Places in the Middle-earth legendarium. We could still create articles like Geography of Middle-earth, etc. --Fang Aili 14:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Two-to-one does not consensus make, but is there some way we can come to an agreement? This is just going to sit around again, and meanwhile we have some hundreds of location stubs that should be put somewhere. Carcharoth? Other project members? --Fang Aili 17:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we should create one large inclusive list (alphabetical) of all places/locations at List of Locations in the Middle-earth legendarium, despite the fact that Middle-earth is actually in Arda (as Middle-earth has been adopted by Christopher Tolkien to refer to his father's legendarium). The stubs (using ones in Beleriand as an example) that need collected into larger articles could be grouped on Geography of Beleriand, where their links on the list page would direct. Or they could simply be added to a new section titled "Minor Places in Beleriand" in the Beleriand article. >^..^< Nimfaelin 04:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a good starting point would be to tag Tolkien-related articles for merging. Once we can see what needs merging, a clearer picture might emerge. From the assessment table at top right of this page, I see that there are over 700 unassessed pages. There will be some assessed stub pages that should really be merged, and some stubs that need expanding. How about we create a "merge" template that we stick on the bottom of candidate articles, with a parameter so we can label it with a subject area for merging to? This would also add the articles to a category. This would work in a similar way to the {{tolkien-stub}} template we already have, that adds articles to Category:Tolkien stubs. User:CBDunkerson knows a bit about templates, so I'm going to drop him a note. Carcharoth 01:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Middle-Earth: Arda or Ennorë?

Looking around at random, I came across the article on Isilmo, the younger brother of Tar-Telperiën of Númenor, and found him to be in the category for "Middle-earth Dúnedain", along with a lot of other Númenóreans. I know I'm not a wikiproject member (although I'm quite familiar with the Matter of Arda on all sides), but I'm curious: does these Númenóreans really belong in a Middle-Earth category, when (if I remember rightly) the Akallabêth states that Númenor was not part of Middle-Earth, or Ennorë? Or is "Middle-Earth" simply used for Arda? Nyttend 15:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Many people, starting with Tolkien himself, have used 'Middle-earth' as a name for the entire 'legendarium' in addition to the land mass where most of the stories took place. That said, simply using 'Dúnedain' as the category name would be clearer. --CBD 19:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
You could also have a "Numenorean Dunedain" category, though I think we already have an Edain category. Similarly for First Age/Second Age/Third Age Edain categories. No category system will ever slice things up neatly without any overlap, and in any case, some of these articles are stubs that will eventually end up in a list, with the current locations redirecting to the relevant section of that list. Carcharoth 16:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I would see simply "Dúnedain" as a better category name, since the only non-royally-connected people I can think of in Númenor would be the widow, the bad boy, and the friend of Aldarion, all from Emerië. I suppose that it would also cause overlap with people such as Aldarion (and those who survived the Akallabêth!), which simply "Dúnedain" would not do. Nyttend 13:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Style of introductions

Can people here have a look at the introduction to War of Wrath? The style used there (developed by me and User:Tttom) is different to the standard "in J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium" lead sentence that is the current standard style. Instead, that article spends a few sentences and footnotes going into external details about the history of the text and which published works the article relates to. Nothing extensives, but setting the scene so to speak. The reader is only then launched into the "in-universe" perspective. In my opinion, this approach helps to avoid the sometimes jarring in-universe emphasis of most of the Middle-earth related articles. I can't reproduce the footnotes exactly here, but have tried to do so below.

"In the fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien, the War of Wrath, or the Great Battle was the final war against Morgoth at the end of the First Age. It appears in the earliest versions of his legendarium and also appears in the The Silmarillion . The War of Wrath is mentioned in passing in The Lord of the Rings at the Council of Elrond, and the Tale of the Years. The details about the war are fragmentary, and are scattered through the various versions of the tales."

written in the 1920's -1930's and published posthumously in the History of Middle-earth series 1983-1996
(1977), the work published posthumously by the author's son and literary executor, Christopher Tolkien
Lord of the Rings, 1954-5: I, p.256; III, p.363 Appendix B

What do people think about adopting this style in other articles? Carcharoth 01:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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