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Archimedes Plutonium

Archimedes Plutonium (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Fails to pass WP:ATT: No RS/Valid sources to be found in article/from Googling about; WP:N: not the subject of multiple non-trivial sources; WP:RS: see what I wrote about the ATT sourcing--there is none. was nominated once here in mid-2006 and kept but none of the keepers said why in policy it should be kept. The person has apparently also asked for their article to be removed, and they are simply non-notable per our policies/guidelines. Previous Keep/AFD appeared to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT kept which isn't appropriate. Delete as non-notable. - Denny 19:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete the Archimedes Plutonium page from Misplaced Pages because the way Wiki is set up, novice editors who are untrained in logic and reason and objectivity and which allows a flood of demonizers to edit any page in Misplaced Pages spells only frustration to those serious about science and knowledge. Misplaced Pages stands at the opposite side of the spectrum-of-encyclopedia compared to when James Clerk Maxwell was the editor of Britannica encyclopedia in the 19th century. The sum total of quality-of-knowledge that the Misplaced Pages encycl gives is less than or equal to the sum of the intelligence of its combined-editors and that sum is a low-class sum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Superdeterminism (talk • contribs) - 19:51, March 19, 2007

Comment Man, Archie, that's really a tough hurdle you're setting up there.. that Britannica, really had a lot of luminaries writing for it. I guess they just don't make things like they used to. Not even the current Britannica. Hey and Misplaced Pages? We can't even use it as toilet paper!--CSTAR 21:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This AfD appears to have been solicited by the subject of the article (Superdeterminism (talk · contribs)). FiggyBee 20:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• He got me to look at it, after I apparently RV'd one of his edits doing RC patrol this afternoon... when I googled him, however, and tried to look him up, it appeared he was non-notable, so I nominated for deletion. - Denny 20:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. AP gets 21000 google hits. I don't know if that counts as notability but it sure indicates existence and interest. The fact that the subject has requested removal of the page was irrelevant in other AfDs. In my opinion one of CSTAR's later edits is a good fair description of the subject. Usenet is hard to document in dead trees for obvious reasons. Greglocock 20:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• There are RS sources about other internet 'legends', but the problem is this person simply fails our standards for notability. Can you address my points above? thank you. - Denny 20:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
• Also, Google shows <400 hits, if you follow the search to the end, not 24000. - Denny 20:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hmm, interesting on the google hits, how do you find the real number? OK the problem is that his posts on usenet are primary sources, as such "Edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge. Primary sources are documents or people close to the situation you are writing about" So, it seems to me that edits based on searches in google groups would be an acceptable source for a usenet phenomenon. Greglocock 20:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• For the real Google count, just go to the last page of results--then again, and again, until you can't descend further. That will show you what Google actually has on a search string... for the sources, however, Usenet is typically not valid per WP:ATT & WP:RS, correct? - Denny 20:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
• For comparison, my (real) name gets about 400 hits on Google. That puts me in the same Google fame league as AP, and I don't consider myself famous or unusual enough to warrant my own Misplaced Pages article. — Loadmaster 20:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• OK. Well on that basis I get 814 results for "Jimmy Wales", so AP is half as googly as JW, and 6 times more googly than myself, or Loadmaster (incidentally is your name unique?). I don't know if googliness=notability, but it sure is /a/ measure of something related. I really don't see how you can discount Usenet as a source for Usenet related articles. Greglocock 20:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• the quality of the source counts as well, and forum and/or posts never count for anything as they are completely unreliable... the sheer number of Google hits is also a supporting criteria, not a main. I.e., the phrase/some guy named "Hipocrates Uranium" might appear 50,000 times in Google, but that doesn't make them article-worthy by itself. Please double check WP:N and WP:ATT. that decides what stays and goes. - Denny 21:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete — The only things notable about this person mentioned in the article are his email responses to Andrew Wiles, and his Plutonium Atom Totality Theory. The former is not enough to qualify for an entry in Misplaced Pages; the later is just a crank theory, which is at best original research and at worst completely ignorable. A previous reason for keeping the page was his unusual name, which could easily be handled by a one-line entry at List of unusual personal names. — Loadmaster 20:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete No reliable sources exist to establish notability. The glancing reference in the Discover article isn't enough. For this to be kept, he'd have to be a notable crank, which means that we need reliable sources established that he is more notable than, say, James Harris, who has no WP page. There are many cranks out there; we can't include them based on personal experience. If, for example, a reputable paper or journal ran an analysis of Usenet postings and determined that this person is remarkable based on their volume of posts, that would be a source. Or multiple non-trivial references in reliable sources mentioning him as a notable crank. I don't deny he may be notable, but there's not enough evidence of his notability in the article. Mike Christie (talk) 20:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Has a chapter in Underwood Dudley's Mathematical Cranks. (Dudley doesn't identify him by name, but how many "AP"'s are there with thousands of Usenet posts.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Hardly informative. Some guy posts stuff on Usenet, changed his name a few times. Moreover, no reliable sources as noted above. --CSTAR 20:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, vehemently, per previous result, in which the page was unanimously kept except for the nominator. A perfect example of the problem with "policy"; policy is a servant of which we are the masters, not the other way around, and at any rate the WP:IDONTLIKEIT essay is not policy, and certainly constitutes no reason for disregarding or dismissing any editor's opinion. The subject of this essay is certainly well known on Usenet. - Smerdis of Tlön 20:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• can you source his notability? - Denny 20:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep One of the most notable Usenet personalities from its formative years and a character of much interest now. Phiwum 21:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• As Denny keeps asking, "most notable personality" according to whom? Are there any citations we can use? — Loadmaster 21:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Interesting to who? What sources are talking about him now? - Denny 21:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• A notable personality based on existing documents written by influential members of Usenet at the time. Killfile.org and alt.usenet.kooks both have entries dealing with Archimedes Plutonium and the latter is at least notable enough for their own entry here on WP. Is it a reliable source? Seems to me its role as a source is comparable to that of historical sources reporting on beliefs and opinions of the day—admittedly, on a more trivial subject. Is there any Usenet character that deserves a Misplaced Pages page, in your opinions? If so, how do you identify notability? If not, is Archie's page just the first in a list that includes all of Category:Usenet_people?Phiwum 21:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

That's arguably WP:OR, since you're proposing using what IMHO are primary sources. --CSTAR 21:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Huh? How can citing Killfile.org or alt.usenet.kooks count as original research? Sorry, but I really have no idea what you mean. Phiwum 21:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There's now a long trail of precedents on writing biographies of living people on WIkipedia. I'm not arguing that these guidelines are always desirable, but they're there and failure to follow them leads to oftem very tedious discussions. I think they are now subsumed under AP:ATT WP:ATT.--CSTAR 21:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep; truly notable Usenet kook. These kinds of articles are hard to source, but it can be done, and it's one case where you can use Usenet itself, such as alt.usenet.kooks. Antandrus (talk) 21:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Article has been tagged for sources for quite a long while already... do we know they exist? - Denny 22:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• I went through the article pretty closely over the weekend and cleaned up the display of the references so they were not just external links in square brackets. I was able to find everything that is "cited" ...

• Questions: Keesiewonder 22:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

1) Do we know for sure that User:Superdeterminism is AP? (Seems like we can't know this ...)

2) What exactly in WP:BLP says how to handle a request from a person to delete an article about them? I see this, but, that's not this AfD ... i.e. if George W. Bush wanted the WP article on him deleted, would we give his comments in an AfD more weight than that of other users?

• We can be sure that it's AP who posted the request for removal on the newsgroups. Since the post is within a couple of hours of the wiki edits made by User:Superdeterminism, it's a fair conclusion that they are one and the same (see Talk:Archimedes Plutonium for the newsgroup posting). — Loadmaster 23:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I think the Daniel Brandt precedent establishes that subjects don't get a veto over their own articles. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 22:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC) --> True. How could I forget about that ... Keesiewonder 22:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: this might help: . There are print references to this person: anyone with the inclination to swing by a good bookstore or a library could look them up. The Oliver Sacks book mentions that he was a dishwasher at Dartmouth. Don't know how good the sources are on his real name: it's a fair question. Antandrus (talk) 22:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Only the first 3 hits apply to our man, though. i.e. AP but not A................P or P.....................A Keesiewonder 22:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Correct. And it's those three which are printed, reliable sources. Antandrus (talk) 22:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The second and third of those are trivial passing references which I don't think meet WP:N's criteria. The first is certainly non-trivial, but I don't know that they justify an entry for AP. There are many more references in that book to Roxana Verona, for example, and she doesn't have a WP entry. However, I'd agree that if there are multiple sources like this that mention AP's eccentricities, that would be an argument to keep this article. As it is it appears he simply is mentioned in passing, as many non-notable people are in this book. Mike Christie (talk) 01:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - few Usenet kooks are notable; Archimedes Plutonium is one of the few. It doesn't matter if he wants the article removed; all that matters is that the article is neutrally written, reliably sourced, and meets WP:BLP. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 22:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Is there a different standard for reliable sources when the material exists almost exclusively on Usenet? Keesiewonder 22:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

• Either we accept Usenet archives and similar sources for information about Usenet or we have no reliably sourced articles about almost any Usenet phenomenon at all. There are no books about what happened on Usenet, but there is an archive. We must be careful, since posts can be forged, but I'd say that we have very reliable authority on the main gist of this article: AP exists and supports various strange theories on Usenet. Phiwum 00:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - I'm admittedly torn on this one. I am usually a stickler for a plethora of reliable, third party references published in scholarly sources, if at all possible. That's not possible here. On the other side, I recognize that this is a realm where Misplaced Pages can distinguish itself from other encyclopedias, and include an article on "someone" like AP. While getting up to speed on this topic, I clicked on the category Usenet people, and immediately recognized another entry - Greg Deeter. I'm not a Usenet user, but I am a stamp collector, and Greg Deeter is a familiar name. I skimmed the article WP has on him, and, I have to say, I'm glad there is an article here on him since I didn't realize what he was a part of - and I recognize I may not have ever seen this aspect of him anywhere else. AP receives more "hits" I believe than Deeter ... thus ... by that reasoning alone ... I need to say I'd keep the article on AP. Keesiewonder 00:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Please be certain that you're not voting "keep" just to thumb your nose at old Pluto Ron Ritzman 00:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

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