Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:50, 21 March 2007

Archives

Archive 1: Jul 2006 and earlier Archive 2

Overlinking: guideline "more links than lines"

I think that the rule that an article is ovelinked if it has more links than lines (in the section Overlinking) is not very useful as the length of a line can vary depending on the browser, browsersettings and the resolution of the screen. I think it should be deleted or changed. --Galadh 13:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it seems rather arbitrary; and if it means sentences, it seems like it could be reasonable to have more than one link per sentence. —Centrx→talk • 18:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I don't think it's a linear relationship. A very short article with more than one link per sentence might not be overlinked at all, but an extremely long article with only one link per every three or four sentences might nevertheless still be drastically overlinked. Xtifr 09:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the guideline --Galadh 10:48, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I have put it back. I do not think this was properly discussed for enough time by enough people.

I agree that it is affected by screen width and article length. However, it is useful because it is simple. I have not heard of anyone involved in a dispute where this guideline was challenged. If you think it could be made more effective without being overcomplicated, feel free to make a suggestion. Perhaps we could look at examples of overlinked articles to see what their characteristics are. bobblewik 16:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I see that Centrx has removed the guidance again with the comment If you disagree with an edit, explain why; there does not need to be a month-long discussion with a quorum for minor change to the MoS on links.

The explain why bit is in my previous contribution here. I respect your good intentions, Centrx. But rather than removing the guidance a third time, can you please say why you disagree with what I said? bobblewik 19:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Just because you don't know of anyone using this provision in a dispute does not mean it is not a bad provision. Every one of the last 4 articles featured on the main page have more links than lines in the introductions. It is an arbitrary, wrongful provision; why is it justified and what is wrong with the reasoning above in this section? —Centrx→talk • 21:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Multiple linking in tables

On a related note, what about items in tables? I've come across tables of lists of TV episodes, with their respective writer or director listed. Many writers/directors appear multiple times in a table, and the editors have painstakingly ensured that each writer is only linked for their first episode, and no subsequent ones. Or indeed not linked at all, if that person is mentioned elsewhere in some previous body text.

I believe this to be a waste of effort on their part, and positively unhelpful for the reader. Having found the entry in the table I'm interested in, and seeing the writer unlinked, I'm then left to do a search of the page to find a functioning link for that writer. Can I suggest a recommendation that all such entries in tables should be linked, even if repeated, due to the "random-access" nature of tables? --KJBracey 14:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

One extreme example of this I've come across is List of Doctor Who serials. And that suggests I mean to include "lists" as well as actual "tables" in my proposal. --KJBracey 14:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Context: example

The paragraph which instructs to use the most precise target uses an example which doesn't make sense to me: "V8 engine" rather than "V8 engine" while V8 redirects to V8 engine. This example seems to address an evident case that you don't label a link foo if the article is named foo bar and you refer to foo bar as foo bar in your text. In that case, foo bar is not more precise, it's just the canonical name. I tried to fix that, but was reverted by User:Centrx. Is there anyone else that thinks like me, or am I missing something?--Chealer 22:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't the link be labelled "V8 engine" instead of plain "V8"? —Centrx→talk • 04:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand me, sorry if I was unclear. A link to V8 engine should be labelled as V8 engine. What I'm saying is that this is obvious, and does not exemplify what the paragraph talks about.--Chealer 11:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I see; okay. I don't think Debian is well-known enough to be a helpful example. —Centrx→talk • 05:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Maintenance with multiple links

There is a problem with multiple links on a page. It makes maintenance of the page difficult if the links change (as the link count is only given once in the what links here), which is why multiple links to the same page has been discouraged in the past. Revision as of 05:28, 16 June 2006 Nscheffey ← Older edit, Revision as of 22:34, 6 July 2006 Centrx --Philip Baird Shearer 12:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the maintenance problem which you refer to. Could you please this link count thing? -Freekee 01:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that this would be a significant problem, and the quality of the encyclopedia and its usefulness to readers should be sacrificed for this rare back-end issue. —Centrx→talk • 01:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Redlinks

I'd like to see guidance on redlinks here. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 07:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I am curious about this as well - Should an article have red links (with the hope that some one might create an article off it) or should you remove thos links? Markco1 05:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Numbered links and footnotes

An increasing number of articles are using automatically numbered footnotes to cite references. This practice is apparently being encouraged, because it is especially prevalent in Featured articles. In my opinion, inline numbered external links (such as , which displays inline as ) should not be used in an article with footnotes. Having two overlapping number series (inline footnote calls numbered 1–x and inline external links numbered 1–y) is confusing and also ugly. In my opinion, the better practice in an article with footnotes is to put external links in footnotes with a descriptive title, such as: <ref></ref>, which displays inline as and in the Notes section as shown below. What do others think? Finell (Talk) 06:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Notes

1. Blather

Piped links with phrases instead of variations on the name of the target

I'm seeing more and more links of a new type. Instead of having the link reflect the name of the article, it's a verb phrase or something. For instance, the article Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has the link: considered very inefficient' which is just horrible and could be replaced by:

considered to have a low efficiency (or something similar). This links to the same section on weapon efficiency.

I think too much was put into the talk archive, as this page is really small now. I still stand by my comments about multiple, directly adjacent links. They're real ugly and clumsy because you don't know what you're getting, if it's one link or many, by simply reading an article without moving the mouse over every link. It spoils all multiple-word links that way. Usually this form is unnecessary and one of the links amounts to a sort of dictionary-definition link. It's a scourge on the whole enterprise if you ask me. --Howdybob 14:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Possible addition to the instructions for creating links

I am not sure about the form for suggesting this so I am posting it here. I have been working away at fixing the links in filmographies and award pages over the last few months and I would like to recommend that we try to teach wiki editors to check and make sure that the link that they create goes to the wikipage that they mean it to go to (I would have typed this in all caps but I know that that is considered rude).

A good example that comes to mind is if an editor is linking The Three Musketeers to an actor who is in it and all they do is create a link around these three words anyone who clicks on that link is taken to the page about the book by Dumas. Then they will click on the disambiguation note (if they haven't given up) and will be taken to a page that lists several of the film versions from over the years. If they have an idea which is the one that they are looking for one final click takes them where they wanted to go originally. In this example it has taken three clicks to do what one should have. My example is for a filmography but the same idea applies to all areas of wikiP.

I suggest that we recommend to editors that are creating links that:

1. They click on the 'Show preview' bar first then
2. Click on the links that they have created and see where they go. If they go where they want then
3. Click on 'Save page'. If they don't
4. Fix them right then so that they do. then
5. Click on 'Save page'

All of the things that need to be typed in like (film) or (1935 film) or (TV series) or changing the link to avoid redirects can be done right then and there. Now I am not trying to get out of the work that I am currently enjoying (more on that below), but, Misplaced Pages is a powerful and fun learning tool. That power is diminished when links lead to areas that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Much of what I have mentioned also applies to creating external links but I have found very few of these that went somewhere unintended.

This was my main topic but I do have a further suggestion for anyone that is fixing links the way that I have been. I have found that opening two windows to a page that is being worked on makes this job much easier.

For example today I was fixing the links on Bela Lugosi filmography. I had window number one in the editing mode and number two on the page as it was. I could then click on the links on two, see where they went and if they needed fixing then bring back up number one and fix them right there. If you try to do this on just one window you have to go forward to the linked item and then back to the editing page and this always resets the page being edited to the top (at least in the original editing mode, if you click on 'Preview page' and then go back and forth this doesn't happen) which means a lot of scrolling on a page like the one mentioned.

In this example it was still important to click on the 'Show preview' and check that my corrections went where I wanted them to.

Again my apologies if these are in the wrong place. To anyone who might read these I hope that they are useful suggestions. Also, if I have posted them in the wrong place please feel free to move them to where they might to some good for other editors. MarnetteD | Talk 02:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing I forgot to mention last night. Please, Please, Please tell new editors that when they are copying filmographies from IMDb don't include the roman numerals in dates i.e (1987/I). This is simply a way that they differentiate between two titles, names etc that occurred in the same year. They are meaningless here at wikipedia. MarnetteD | Talk 00:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

URL protocol limitation

The protocols are listed at Meta:URI schemes#Current settings. Peahaps this link should be given in the article? Secondly, what is the reason to restrict the protocols; that is, why not just to convert everything in square braces into external link? I was looking on how to insert ed2k links. --Javalenok 19:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

templates and linking in them

I've been editing using the Template:Infobox Writer and a user changed the Website field from the way I had it (example) Official website to citing WP:MOS. I personally think it looks better as official site especially since being in a template, or heck even www.catherinecoulter.com would do but the WP:MOS-L only says However, you should add a descriptive title when an external link is offered in the References, Further reading, or External links section. Is there any policy on this someplace that I'm not seeing? The template itself says nothing about the prefered style of choice. I bring this up here because I don't see it elsewhere and since that's the case perhaps it should also be on here, plus I don't want to get into an edit war. All other authors that I see using the Website field either have Official website or www.catherinecoulter.com so perhaps clarification for templates is needed? Anyway any answers are appreciated. Thanks. --ImmortalGoddezz 01:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It's been a few days since I posted this and since there haven't been any answers I've went ahead and posted this on the WP:MOS talk page instead. --ImmortalGoddezz 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Link once per section

Policy proposal: Link technical terms once per article section. Another editor (AySz88\^-^) and I have been discussing the proper number of links for the same technical term in a technical article. For example, how many times to link invariant mass in a longish article on mass in special relativity? His suggestion is that every time is too many, and I think just ONCE at the beginning is not enough (since it can be missed and have to be searched for). A good compromise seems ONCE per article section. That won't please everyone, but this is an issue where you can't please everyone. Linking EVERY time a phrase appears drives some people bananas with multiple colors per line, and yet I still say that for some articles, once isn't enough. So the logical number is just do it in the first paragraph of any section (or first use of it), so that it's unlikely that anyone reading it the second time won't have run over it the first time, and have it at hand. Again, I'm only suggesting this as a general guideline for technical terms in longish technical articles which use them more than few times. What say you all? SBHarris 01:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This is already at least mentioned, "These links should be included where it is most likely that a reader would want to follow them elsewhere — for example, in article introductions, the beginnings of new sections..." & "...however, duplicating an important link distant from a previous occurrence is appropriate...". See also . However, it may need to be more explicit or specific. —Centrx→talk • 03:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it needs to be more explicit. Okay, given that the optimal number of links (for the same term) has been already been previously discussed "from both ends" in the context of "not overlinking" and also "Is appropriate to duplicate links for new sections" then, yes, let's make it more explicit in the guidelines. I'll make a first attempt. SBHarris 20:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Titling external links

I was searching this page for naming conventions for external links but found very little. In my opinion, if your article is, say, "Foo History Museum of Foo County", then if you have an official link to the museum, you can put that as the first link and simply call it "Foo History Museum of Foo County". I find it redundant to say "FHMoFC website", or even "Official website of FHMoFC", because I think "official" is overused and sometimes used to legitimize links that are anything but official. When Wikignoming articles I generally change the official link's title to the title of the entity or organization in question, but if at some point someone sees fit to change it back, I leave it that way since it seems to only be my opinion and not codified anywhere. Does anyone know if this has been discussed somewhere? Any thoughts? Thanks! Katr67 18:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Possessive

One thing not mentioned is where the 's goes when the possessive is not part of the name itself. I think the 's belongs outside the link. Compare:

1. William Shatner's toupee
2. William Shatner's toupee

I think the first one is much better, because the 's has nothing to do with the article linked to. On the other hand, Macy's definitely needs the 's on the inside, because the 's is part of the name (as the MoS currently says). - furrykef (Talk at me) 02:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Internal links

Would it be good to change:

"The use of links to other Misplaced Pages articles, for example, ], is encouraged."

into

"The use of links to other Misplaced Pages articles, for example, ] (resulting in Ant), is encouraged."

Or something to that extent. Or would this only add to the confusion? kabbelen 04:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Underlined links

What's the deal with links being underlined without rollover? I'm not sure where this is/was discussed, but it's really annoying. Sure, there's some merit to the change, and it's a bit more "proper," but it looks like shit on pages with many links (i.e. the home page). Compare the elegant rollover underlines on the menu panel. Anyone know why this was done? Max 15:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Links Within a Link

Please, can anyone tell me the proper format to create a link within another link? (Or, is this even possible?) For example, let's say that I want the text to read exactly: Arnold (The Governator) Schwarzenegger. What is the proper linking format that would create this exact text so that it links to both the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" article and the "The Governator" article? Please help. Thanks a lot! (JosephASpadaro 05:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC))

Well, you could do Arnold (The Governator) Schwarzenegger as ] ] ]. That's a little weird though. Max 16:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I thought of that -- but it's certainly not an elegant way to achieve what I need. Furthermore, it's not quite accurate to have the text of the person's first name only (e.g., Arnold) link to his full name (e.g., Arnold Schwarzenegger). These types of nicknames happen all the time (e.g., Michael "Air" Jordan, Jesse "The Body" Ventura, etc.). I would think that there is an easy way to accomplish this. Any ideas? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 03:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC))

Dead and red internal links: not abominations, but rather how and where Wiki grows

Policy in a nutshell: A red link is not an emergency and it is not a promise. (It's not a baby that has stopped breathing, and it's not a wedding ring).

(this is a proposed policy page, and subsection to be summarized in shorter form, under "linking")

Terms which are given link parentheses, but do not presently link to a wiki, appear in the default user settings, in red. This may have been an unfortunate choice of color, since red to many people signals danger, or something not working, or which needs immediate fixing. This is not necessarily the case with non-working links, however! A non-working link does *not* mean that something is wrong in Misplaced Pages, and despite the color, it actually is NOT begging to be immediately fixed, either by removing the brackets, or by creating a page which expands upon it. These things may be done later. Nature and the Heavens will not cry out if these things are not done immediately. In fact, a good healthy wiki article will probably have a certain amount of nonworking links, so long as wikipedia grows properly.

Nonworking links may be perfectly normal things, like twig buds on a plant. They are markers for places where an editor has essentially commented, using brackets, that he or she would like to see a Wiki on this topic, but found that it didn't exist. That's okay. If the editor didn't have the immediate time or knowledge to expand upon a term, the mere marking of interest may stimulate another editor with more time or knowledge or initiative, to begin work on the article at some later date. This is a good thing. In the meantime, it's best if the non-working link is left alone. There is nothing wrong with such links. Editors who are offended by the violent RED color are encouraged to go back to their user settings page and change it for their own reader, so that they themselves can read articles in more peace, and thus leave these variety of links in peace. They are important, and need to remain if Misplaced Pages is to grow naturally and in the best way (which is to say, in the direction of writing articles on terms-of-interest which don't have them).

Editors may notice that some nonworking internal links really are pathological. For example, they may link to words that don't need links because they aren't likely to ever be the topics of Misplaced Pages articles. But note that links in the preceding sentence-- this is not always easy to figure out. In such cases, though, it's perfectly fine to remove the brackets. Also, editors may notice that a link is not working because somebody has mistakenly included the plural s inside the bracket, or the word is misspelled, or some obvious problem of this sort. Again, these can and should be fixed. Finally, an editor who knows enough about a nonworking link to write a stub on it, can click on it, and start the page by doing it. This is always preferable to removing the brackets on a non-working link, if the link is to a word which will EVER be worth a Wiki. Probably the best of all solutions involves figuring out that the non-working link is actually a variant of a term which already has a wiki, so that the link can either be changed to the existing wiki, or a redirect page can be created (creating a redirect is the better option if the non-working term is a very common but not technically correct one, for example transistor radio battery vs. PP3 battery)

What a nonworking internal link is NOT, is a promise, or a deadline. So it need not be treated as an engagement ring, or a notice from the IRS. The person who made it is under no moral obligation to come back and expand it into a stub or article, even if they once intended to. And you, the editor, are under no obligation to watch a non-working link for some period of time, to make sure that somebody eventually "attends" to it, as though it were a parking ticket. Nonworking internal links are not wet babies; unless the nonworking link is a pathological link (see above) there's no particular hurry for anybody to attend to it. And if the color of it is bothering you, again you know what you can do about it. But leave the link itself ALONE. It's serving a purpose and function, like a bud, and what it needs most from you the editor, if you're not going to create the article, is not to be bothered by you, until somebody else can do the job. SBHarris 21:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)