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Court rules against Steven Barrett

In October of 2005 Steven Barret lost a court case where he had sued Dr. Tedd Koren because of Koren’s publication that Barrett was a "Quackpot", and in trouble because of a $10 million lawsuit. Court Case: Stephen Barrett, M.D. vs. Tedd Koren, D.C. and Koren Publications, Inc. Court of Common Pleas of Lehigh County for the State of Pennsylvania Court Case No.: 2002-C-1837 At trial Barrett conceded that he was not a Medical Board Certified psychiatrist because he had failed the certification exam. Barrett had provided supposed expert testimony as a psychiatrist and had testified in numerous court cases. Barrett also had said that he was a legal expert even though he had no formal legal training. Barrett had filed similar defamation lawsuits against almost 40 people across the country within the past few years and had not won one single one at trial. During the course of his examination, Barrett conceded his ties to the AMA, Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Food & Drug Administration (FDA). 69.72.110.164 19:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that case is mentioned in the article, as is the fact that he failed his boards (although a citation would be helpful there). But associated with the AMA, the FTC, and the FDA? That's despicable! MastCell 20:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Board Certification

This source which was written by Stephen Barrett's lawyers says:

Dr. Barrett is a retired psychiatrist, having completed three years of accredited residency training in psychiatry. It is not necessary to be board-certified to practice psychiatry.

Therefore, according to his lawyers, he is NOT board certified. However, this doesn't say that he failed his exams. Thus, I supply this article from ChiroWeb which quotes opposing counsel:

At trial, while on the stand, Barrett had to admit that he not only gave up his license in 1994, but that he was, in fact, not a board-certified psychiatrist, because he had flunked the examination that was required to receive certification.

Now we have established that not only is Barrett not board certified, but that he failed the exam.

As for the date and the portion of the exam, I don't know where that came from, but I am sure it wasn't pulled out of thin-air. We can research back in this article's history and see from whence it sprang. -- Levine2112 17:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, apparently the date and the portion of the exam came straight from the horse's mouth... just a figure of speech, no deprecation intended. ;-) See here that user Sbinfo states:

Dr. Barrett responds: I took the certifying exam in 1964 when about 1/3 of psychiatrists were board-certified. The exam had two halves, psychiatry and neurology. I passed the psychiatric part but failed neurology because it included topics unrelated to either my training or my interests. Unlike most residencies, my psychiatric training program had no neurologic component. Since there was no reason to believe that certifcation was necessary, I decided not to re-take the exam. Sbinfo diff

I think that should confirm everything which was deleted. Any comments or shall we re-instate it? -- Levine2112 17:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The first source is original research since it draws on a court document and you have not provided a secondary source showing that this aspect of Barrett's career is in any way important. Please see Jimbo's intervention at Christopher Michael Langan for an illustration. The second source is a partisan website, not a reliable source to help us gage the importance or meaning of this detail in Barrett's life. He has never claimed to be a board-certified psychiatrist. The article, after my edit, no longer said anything about this point. This completes the WP:NOR/WP:WEIGHT aspect, the point here not being whether or not it is true, but how it is reported in reliable secondary sources.

The WP:BLP aspect is also illustrated by Jimbo's intervention at Christopher Michael Langan. It is apparent from Barrett's own comments that he does not at all agree with this description of his career. After my edit, it did (since it now agrees with his own description). AvB ÷ talk 18:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't follow your logic here. Barrett says himself that he failed his board certication exam. Do you agree that this is true? That should be all of the source we would need... the other sources only help but aren't neccessary because Barrett himself is stating this fact. Of course this is important. This is as important as any of his degrees or accolades. We are not misrepresenting this fact... in fact we are stating exactly what Barrett himself said. If anything, this satisfies BLP - specifically WP:SELFPUB and BLP (using a subject as a source) - and Barrett himself by clearly stating this fact and citing himself as a source and showing everyone that he is not hiding or misrepresenting this fact. -- Levine2112 18:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a pity you do not follow my logic. I have explained it to the best of my ability and would say that Jimbo's explanation also counts. Once again, the point is not whether something has happened but whether it should be included the way it was, and that we should use reliable secondary sources to guide that assessment. If you and I were the only editors discussing the inclusion of this sentence, this would be the time to turn to WP:DR. But perhaps we're not, so I hope others will want to chime in. Anyone? AvB ÷ talk 18:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

PS 1 You would be right to quote Barrett on this, but only if he had said it in this specific context, i.e. where he is describing his own resume. It's common sense, really. Not many people include failed exams on their resume. AvB ÷ talk 18:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

PS 2 You say "of course it is important" - that's exactly the point. You think it's important. But what editors think does not count. The question is, what are reliable secondary sources saying about this? AvB ÷ talk 18:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It's the old issue of what material derived solely from primary sources is appropriate. Note that WP:RS#Types_of_source_material, WP:SOURCE#Reliable_sources and WP:N#Notability_guidelines_do_not_directly_limit_article-content have been updated since the last time I recall discussing this issue. --Ronz 18:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please spell out clearly why this sentence should be deleted, which policies specifically, and the relevance of the Langan article here. I am not understanding your point and am requesting further explanation. -- Levine2112 18:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

As the editor trying to include the material, the burden of evidence is on you. --Ronz 18:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

While I think the material fulfills the "descriptive claims" criteria of a primary source, I agree with Avb that the "undo weight" issue, especially in light of WP:BLP, is more important here in making this a quality encyclopedia article. --Ronz 19:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not trying to include it, but rather keep it. AvB deleted it and I would like a clear explanation of his rationale. That's all.

Anyhow, BLP states with regards to using a subject as a source the following:

In some cases the subject may become involved in editing an article. They may edit it themselves or have a representative of theirs edit it. They may contact Wikipedians either through the article's talk page or via email. Or, they may provide information through press releases, a personal website or blog, or an autobiography. When information supplied by the subject conflicts with unsourced statements in the article, the unsourced statements should be removed.

Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if:

• It meets verifiability, NPOV, and no original research policies.
• It is relevant to the person's notability;
• It is not contentious;
• It is not unduly self-serving;
• There is no reasonable doubt that it was provided by the subject.
• A blog or personal website written by the subject may be listed in the external links/further reading section, even if the subject is not used as a source.

Barrett is clearly concerned that he is being misrepresented by people who state that he is concealing the fact that he failed his board certification exams. He has sued people for saying that. He wants to let the world know that he is not hiding this fact. By including this information here and sourcing Barrett as the primary source, we are in fact satisfying Barrett's wishes. We wouldn't be violating BLP, clearly he is a reliable source on himself, it is relavent to his notablity, it isn't contentious (it is a fact) and it certainly isn't unduly self-serving. If the burden of evidence is truly on me, then I believe I have satisfied this burden.

How does Undo Weight figure into this? That he failed his board certification exams isn't a minority viewpoint. It is a fact. It would be one thing if we were stating that he was hiding this information. We are not stating that. We are only spelling out a clear fact of his qualifications. -- Levine2112 19:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I cannot help it if you do not follow my logic. I have already explained in great detail so for me it's now a matter of consensus building or you and me going to WP:DR. That only leaves your statement that Barrett wants this in the encyclopedia himself. Well, Levine2112, I would certainly not object to the inclusion of this information in the part of the article's criticism section (is there such a part? I haven't even read it in full recently) where his detractors get to voice "that he is concealing the fact that he failed his board certification exams". Adding it to his resume surely is not his intention here. That would be contextomy and is exactly what we're talking about. Without the right context, this piece of information needs to stay out of Barrett's resume in the encyclopedia. AvB ÷ talk 19:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Not only is there a criticism section, but the criticism section includes a subheading entitled "Qualifications and Objectivity." I can think of no better place for this information to be included. --Warrior-Poet 19:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime, then, I will include this information in the crtitisms section. -- Levine2112 19:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I would advise you not to do that, Levine2112. As I have told you, this would be OK with me if the criticism section contained the information Barrett wants to offset. It doesn't, and adding at this point would be nothing more than WP:POINT. If you do this, I fear your behavior on this talk page is on its way to become disruptive. You know how important BLP is to the encyclopedia. And you probably know that I practise 1RR so I have already used up double my self-limited number of reverts in the interest of NPOV, NOR and BLP. AvB ÷ talk 20:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112, I see you have added this information to another part of the article. I am giving you the opportunity to revert yourself. You have not provided sources showing the reader why the information would belong in the place where I deleted it, and you have not provided sources showing the reader why the information would belong in the place where you have now inserted it. I am disputing your insertion and you should immediately remove it per WP:BLP and other policies until we have reached consensus on the talk page. AvB ÷ talk 20:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Right now, I don't see anything disruptive in my action. I didn't add it to the criticism section to make a point. I added it there per the suggestion given above. While I don't think that this is being used as a criticism of Barrett, but rather a verifiable biographical point, I do see some logic in adding it to this section. Barrett has sued many people and organizations for misrepresenting this fact. Clearly, it is a notable fact for Barrett, for his opponents, and for the general public. -- Levine2112 20:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you did not add it per my suggestion which was conditional and the condition has clearly not been fulfilled. This is just another example of disruptive editing: your ignoring information given three times already. You do not seem to understand the situation. I am once again giving you an opportunity to self-revert. You have ignored all reasons to delete and given not a single reason to include. And I resent the "disengage" advice below. It is baseless. I am not personally attached to Barrett and have no feelings about this one way or another except for the resentment just noted. I am defending the encyclopedia. I do not want Jimbo to get a phone call complaining about this article. AvB ÷ talk 20:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I can help you understand the undue weight aspect though. Quoting from the policy: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." The viewpoint we're talking about is not whether or not something happened, but how important it is. To assess that importance we need reliable, secondary sources. I expect, if you find such sources, that they will show that this may be important in the POV of Barrett's detractors, but it is not important to most people. AvB ÷ talk 19:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Right now we are in the first step of WP:DR... discussion. There is no section here called resume. A resume is a self-serving document and would fail many Misplaced Pages policies. We are dealing with a section entitled "Biography". In 1964, Stephen Barrett took the board certification exam for his chosen field, Psychiatry. He failed the neurological portion of the exam. He has never retaken the exam. This is biographical. This is on topic with a subject who is a notable doctor. This isn't a criticism. This is a fact. This is relevant. It is not as if we are stating something off topic with the subject, i.e. his kitchen walls are painted green. I still haven't seen a clear explanation for deleting the passage. I am open to change my mind. Otherwise, we should reinstate it. -- Levine2112 19:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please reread what I wrote. We have no reached a consensus. You say you do not understand my logic. I do not know what else I can tell you. I said we're now ready for consensus discussion with the other editors active here, and otherwise it's time for WP:DR. As for reasons to delete, I've given you plenty but I don't need any. The burden to sufficiently source it source for inclusion is on you. AvB ÷ talk 20:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I have given you just that. Please either comment on my reasons to justify inclusion or move to the second step of WP:DR... Disengage for a while. -- Levine2112 20:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I just read through the article. I have to admit I don't think it is necessary to put in the board certification information, it just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the article. Also, was another consensus taken about the use of Quackpot.com? I see it's back in the article. I thought that the use of a self made site like this one is, it is called an opinion piece by Tim Bolin, was not allowed. I am getting confused by these rules I think but I thought I would ask. I hope everyone can talk calmly about these things. --Crohnie 20:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112, you have not even started to refute my arguments against inclusion. The only real argument for inclusion you gave was the thing about "Barret wants this himself". The rest all boils down to "it is true so I can include it anywhere in the article," which does NOT trump policy. You are wrong in thinking you as a single editor get to decide whether such BLP-related information can be included. You are simply edit-warring instead of reaching a consensus here, and that is WP:POINT and disruptive. You are also endangering the encyclopedia by including material. Try to build a consensus before doing anything. And remember that I am not not the only editor here. In fact I'm going to bed after reporting this. AvB ÷ talk 21:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your arguments against inclusion and have repeatedly asked you to clarify. You have refused to do so. I have quoted specific policy which in fact supports inclusion so please don't write this off as e trying to make a point. That shows a lack of good faith on your part. Please follow my lead and quote precise policy which justifies your deletion of this material. I am open to change my mind if you would just explain to me a valid point about policy. There is no endangerment of the encyclopedia by including a cold-hard relevant fact. Please don't blow this out of proportion. I am not edit warring, so please don't accuse me of that. I am not being disruptive, so please don't accuse me of that. -- Levine2112 21:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually in favor of mentioning the boards issue briefly, as Levine did; my concern is that it needs a reliable source. Citing User:Sbinfo's comments on Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source. Provided it can be sourced, I think it's relevant enough to include it. Oh, and Quackpotwatch needs to go. MastCell 21:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

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