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Current disputes

Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• 3Kingdoms (talk · contribs)
• Wes sideman (talk · contribs)
• Firefangledfeathers (talk · contribs)
• Avatar317 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The crux of the issue hinges around two points. The first is the question of including polling and support for the amendment. The second is whether the section on the Mexico City Policy should be reduced or kept the same.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I hope a compromise can be made over the disagreements and/or clarification by uninvolved parties as to what is the best way to settle the dispute.

Summary of dispute by 3Kingdoms

I believe that there is enough support to include a Marist poll about American views on the funding of abortion overseas for the article. Besides the Helms Amendment being the governing policy as it relates to the polling in question, reliable sources have also mentioned the polling in the context of the amendment or vice versa , , . Also, I believe a section on groups that support the amendment should be included along with.

Regarding the Mexico City Policy, while I do believe it should be mentioned in the see also section and maybe a brief mention in the article, I do not believe that a full summary of the policy's history and how each administration since Reagan enacted or rescinded it needs to be included. Helms is a separate policy than the MCP. Also, the current opening line for the MCP part "While the Helms Amendment put a stop to the efforts of USAID and similar organizations to promote safe abortion overseas, it did not satisfy some anti-abortion activists." To my mind violate NPOV and should be removed or at least reworded.

Summary of dispute by Wes sideman

I'm in favor of including information about the Helms Amendment that is included in reliable sources that discuss the Amendment in depth. There are numerous reliable secondary sources that discuss the relationship between the Amendment and the Mexico City policy: , , , , , , .... the list could go on forever if I wanted to copy-paste for a few more days.

In contrast, sourcing linking a single Marist poll 2 years ago, commissioned by the Knights of Columbus (a strongly anti-abortion organization), to the Helms Amendment is extremely weak. The Forbes source mentions the Marist poll in passing, once. The 2nd source is an article from the Catholic News Service, on its face not a reliable secondary source, obviously, and besides, mentions the Helms Amendment once, in passing. The third source, a Deseret News article (newspaper owned by the LDS Church) is an article about a completely different piece of legislation, the Hyde Amendment. It mentions the Helms Amendment briefly, and later, with no connection between the two, mentions the Marist poll once. It feels like a WP:COATRACK situation to crowbar a Marist poll commissioned by an anti-abortion religious org into an article with good reliable secondary sourcing on everything else. Wes sideman (talk) 18:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Helms Amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act discussion

First statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

I am ready to moderate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D, which is the rules covering disputes over a contentious topic. Please be aware of the ArbCom decision on abortion, which finds that abortion, broadly construed, is a contentious topic, and disruptive editing is subject to special sanctions. Do not ask me for expertise about the Helms Amendment or the Mexico City policy. It is the responsibility of the disputing parties to provide the moderator with any necessary information, just as it is the responsibility of the editors of Misplaced Pages to provide readers with information. Please acknowledge that you understand and will comply with the rules.

The purpose of conflict resolution is to improve the encyclopedia, because that is the purpose of all editing of the encyclopedia. So please start by making a one-paragraph or two-paragraph statement as to what you think should be changed in the article, or what you think should be left the same that another editor wants changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:16, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I'm an interested party in this dispute. I've re-read rule set D and agree to follow it. Based on what I know now, I'd prefer to trim the Mexico City Policy content (to something about a paragraph long, and not in it's own section) and continue to exclude the poll content. I'm open to changing my mind based on further evidence. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:32, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

• I understand and will comply with the rules. I believe the change should be as follows: First a separate section called support that reads along the lines of "The Amendment is supported by the Catholic Church and anti-abortion organizations such as the Susan B. Anthony List" Followed by: Polling has shown around 75% of American oppose funding for abortion overseas. For the Mexico City Policy, I say as a compromise it reads: "Some anti-abortion activists felt that the Amendment did not go far enough which led to the creation of the Mexico City Policy in 1984 which prohibits federal funding to NGOs that perform or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning."3Kingdoms (talk) 03:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

• The long-stable version of the article included sourced paragraphs about the Mexico City policy and its relationship to the Helms Amendment. I added some sourcing to that and some minor touch-ups, and believe that section is fine as is. The Marist poll is one of countless polls about abortion in the USA, it was commissioned by a pro-life organization, and to cherry-pick that one poll, with only the most tenuous of connections to the subject of the article, reeks of POV-pushing, in my opinion. Wes sideman (talk) 13:52, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

It appears that there are two issues. The first is whether to leave the current language about the Mexico City policy as is, or to trim it down. The editors who want to trim it down may also want to remove the section heading. The second issue appears to be whether to include or exclude the Marist poll. Will each editor please state, briefly, what they think should be in the article about the Mexico City policy? A compromise may be possible, and is desirable if possible. Will each editor please state whether they think that the Marist poll should be included? The issue of the poll appears to be a yes-no question, but if anyone has a compromise idea, please state it. If there are any other issues, please state them, concisely. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

I think we should mention that the Mexico City policy was an expansion of the Helms Amendment restrictions, briefly describe the policy's effects, and briefly summarize its history across the following presidential administrations. I still think this can be about a paragraph long. I don't think we should include the Marist poll, and I don't have a compromise idea. I would change my mind if there were more reliable sources mainly about the Helms Amendment that draw a connection between it and the poll; so far I think only the Forbes piece makes the cut. I don't believe there are other issues. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

User:Avatar317 - I will add you to the list of editors.

At this point, it doesn't appear that there is disagreement about the Mexico City policy, but rather agreement that coverage of the Mexico City policy should be trimmed down. If anyone disagrees, please say so.

At this point, it doesn't appear that there is disagreement about the Marist poll, but rather agreement to leave it out. If anyone disagrees, please say so.

Are there any other issues or areas of disagreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:20, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

I still disagree about the exclusion of the Marist Polling due to the it being rated one of the best polling sites. The objections about the Knight of Columbus sponsoring the poll I do not find convincing. The Guttmacher institute is pro-abortion but is used as a source. I do not see why a poll from a highly rated place should be disregarded because it was sponsored by a group that is anti-abortion. The other objection about a lack of connection I understand, but still unconvinced by. If the poll is excluded I still think a small section in support for the helm amendment from the Catholic Church, the Knights, and anti-abortion groups is worth having.3Kingdoms (talk) 16:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The main reason for excluding the poll is that there isn't significant coverage from reliable sources connecting the poll to the Helms Amendment. Wes sideman (talk) 18:13, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

There appears to be agreement that the coverage of the Mexico City policy should be trimmed down.

There appears to be disagreement about the Marist poll. I will ask those editors who oppose including the Marist poll to state whether they oppose it on grounds of reliability of the sources, as undue weight, or bias.

Are there any other issues or areas of disagreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The only reason thing I can think of is deciding if the article should include a section mentioning organizations that support the amendment. 3Kingdoms (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I oppose including the poll based on non-reliability of the poll. (Undue weight for ONE poll paid for by a non-neutral organization.) "Marist surveyed 1,004 adults Jan. 4-9 via landline or mobile numbers and interviewed respondents by telephone using live interviewers". - The two sources which mention this poll, qualify it by who paid for it. (Forbes qualifies it even more: "A majority of Americans are broadly supportive of abortion rights, but a Marist poll conducted in January for the Knights of Columbus—which is opposed to abortion..." as if it is a strange exception.) It doesn't even seem to be available on the website of Marist, only on the KofC's site (who paid for the poll). As I said earlier, abortion polls are notorious for getting wildly different results based on the specifics of how they are worded, and in this case, maybe who they ask. How many educated people answer phone polls when an unidentified number shows up on caller ID? (Support for abortion is well documented to be higher among more educated people.) ---Avatar317 07:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I'm not sure if the Marist poll issue is resolved, but I haven't changed my mind. It seems like the only other pending issues are
  1. working out exactly what the trimmed Mexico City Policy content would look like
  2. deciding whether there should be a support section
  . I don't think there's a draft proposal on the table for either, so it's hard for me to weigh in. I'd be equally fine with reviewing proposals here or through normal talk page discussion or editing. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  2 - I oppose a support section withOUT an opposition section, and if we have that, both should be sourced to INDEPENDENT/Neutral Sources, not the Catholic News service.

  3 - I'm ok with continuing this discussion on the Talk page. ---Avatar317 18:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  I have no objection to an opposition section. I do not agree about the sourcing. In my experience CNA gives reliable information even if wording is done from a Catholic viewpoint. Furthermore, it is independent of the USCCB. If Guttmacher is used as a source I do not see a reason to oppose this one. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  That is oversimplifying of sources. Guttmacher would not be a good source for who supports and opposes the Helms Amendment, (and I don't think they publish that type of content) just like CNA is not a good source because CNA would give greater coverage to Catholics and their viewpoint rather than Evangelicals for example; for supporters/opponents we should stick to mainstream news sources.

  Guttmacher is highly respected and cited by both sides of the abortion debate for their DATA and statistics about abortions (number, demographics, etc.) so they are a Reliable Source for any of that type of content. ---Avatar317 06:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  I understand what you’re saying, but wiki also does not object to a source just because they have a bias. Given that this would only be one sentence I think including the CNA source is fine. If it was being cited across much of the article I agreed it would seem overused. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

• My proposal for the Mexico City Policy is: "Some anti-abortion activists felt that the Amendment did not go far enough which led to the creation of the Mexico City Policy in 1984 which prohibits federal funding to NGOs that perform or actively promote abortion as a method of family planning."
• For support I proposed: "The Amendment is supported by the Catholic Church and anti-abortion organizations such as the Susan B. Anthony List" 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

See Rule D.6 in DRN Rule D.

There seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House. You may use the section for back-and-forth discussion to work out a trimmed version.

If there continues to be disagreement about the Marist poll, an RFC may be in order. Does anyone want to propose an alternative resolution?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The only remaining one is the question of including a support section alongside the opposition one. 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:53, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I do think we're in rough agreement on the Mexico City Policy, and I bet we can work out the specifics without further moderated discussion. For the poll, I would prefer not to have an RfC, and I'd hope to see advocates of inclusion see that it's not been gathering steam as uninvolved voices joined in and maybe just drop it. It does seem like there's one additional content concern, about the inclusion of a support section. The proposed content is pretty short. If it's to be about that length, I'd rather change the "Opposition" section to "Support and opposition" and include the short addition at the beginning. "supported by the Catholic Church" is not quite supported by the source, but "supported by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops" would be fine. I don't have concerns about the usability of CNA for a short summary. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  While I still believe the poll should be included I do agree that I am in the minority and have not gotten addition support. I lean to RFC just to hear from other editors, but if not I understand. Agree about one section of support and opposition. Also agree with changing Catholic Church to USCCB. Cheers! 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

See Rule D.6 in DRN Rule D.

There still seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House.

There seems to be agreement to add a Support section before the Opposition section.

We don't have to have agreement to have an RFC on the Marist poll. An RFC is used to obtain community rough consensus when there isn't agreement. Is there agreement to include the poll? Is there agreement to exclude the poll? If one editor wants an RFC, we can have an RFC. What if anything is there agreement on, about the poll?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

• I believe that we do not yet have agreement on a Support section. I had proposed having one section called "Support and opposition", since the proposed content about support is so brief. It looks like 3K agreed with that proposal, but the other parties have not weighed in on that issue specifically. 3K and I are also in agreement about what the support content should say and that the proposed source is reliable enough. A317's fourth statement suggests that they would oppose the proposed support content. I acknowledge the point about an RfC being warranted even if just one editor wants it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

There still seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House.

It appears that there is disagreement on whether to include the Marist poll, but I want to verify that. Will each participant please state what their opinion is on including the Marist poll?

It appears that there is disagreement about either a separate Support section or redesignating the Opposition section as Support and Opposition. Will each participant please state what their position is on identifying Supporters?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Seventh statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

I believe the Marist Poll is worth including and support having a combined "Support and Opposition" section. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't have anything new to say about the Marist poll; I'm still opposed. I favor a Support and opposition section that includes at least one sentence on support from the USCCB and anti-abortion orgs. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion of the Marist poll. Support small combined "Support and Opposition" section. ---Avatar317 00:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Eighth statement by moderator (Helms Amendment)

There still seems to be agreement to trim down the discussion of the Mexico City policy, which has its own article, and that perhaps it is sufficient to say that it changes depending on the political party in the White House.

An RFC is needed on whether to include the Marist poll.

Are all of the editors agreeable to a Support section and an Opposition section, or do some editors want a single Support and Opposition section? If there is disagreement, an RFC will be used.

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 08:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Eighth statements by editors (Helms Amendment)

Back-and-forth discussion (Helms Amendment)

I don't know the procedure for editors to offer opinions on DRN; this is my first post here.

I support trimming the "Mexico City Policy" section by concatenating the last three paragraphs into one saying something on the order of "Democratic presidential administrations have removed it, while Republican ones have re-instated it"; (the years and presidents can be seen in that article)...maybe including the small comment about Trump's expansion. It shouldn't be its own section.

Single poll should be excluded; doesn't sound like this is representative of true population's opinion based on the sources and who commissioned the poll. Abortion polls are notorious for getting wildly different results based on the specifics of how they are worded.---Avatar317 23:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I also support trimming the back-and-forth Democratic-to-Republican admins policy reversals into a single simple sentence. Was actually going to to do that myself, but then this discussion was launched, so I held off. Wes sideman (talk) 14:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

File:Honey Mariah Carey Single.png

Closed as also pending in a conduct forum, and reported to a conduct forum after DRN Rule A was posted, saying not to report the dispute at another forum. Discuss the slow-motion edit-warring at WP:AN. If WP:AN says that this is a content dispute, resolve the content dispute with a Third Opinion or RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Ukrainian language

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ukrainian language (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Crash48 (talk · contribs)
• Rsk6400 (talk · contribs)
• Austronesier (talk · contribs)
• Mzajac (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Disagreement on whether the usage of the term Little Russian language by non-Russians, and in particular, by Ukrainians themselves, including those never subject to Russian imperial oppression, should be mentioned in the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Third_opinion&diff=prev&oldid=1176410679
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=1185623520#Ukrainian_language

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Establish whether the usage of the term Little Russian language by non-Russians, and in particular, by Ukrainians themselves, including those never subject to Russian imperial oppression, should be mentioned in the article.

Summary of dispute by Rsk6400

Comment I'm not opposed to this kind of dispute resolution, but I'm not sure about this, because there were a lot of other participants involved in the discussions. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary The question is not, whether the use of the name "Little Russian" by certain authors should be included, but whether it should be included without reference to good secondary sources. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Austronesier

Ukrainian language discussion

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

I am still ready to try to mediate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule D, and reply whether you agree to moderated discussion subject to this set of rules, which include recognizing that the Ukrainian language is a contentious topic subject to the Arbitration Committee ruling on disputes about Eastern Europe. The contentious topics procedure has been provided in part to deal with battleground editing about world areas that have been historically real battlegrounds, or are current battlegrounds, and Ukraine is the area of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century. An editor has said that there have been other editors involved in this dispute. After discussion, we may either use a Request for Comments to involve other editors, or invite the other editors to take part in this discussion.

So I am asking whether at least two editors agree to moderated discussion subject to DRN Rule D and Eastern Europe contentious topic rules. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Yes, I think I understood the rules and am willing to take part. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree to moderated discussion subject to the suggested set of rules. --Crash48 (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I was not invited but I did participate in the above-mentioned previous discussion. I ask to be allowed to participate, and agree to the ground rules. Thank you. —Michael Z. 17:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

First statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the article. So I am asking each editor to state what they want changed in the article, or what they want left the same that another editor wants changed. It appears that one area of disagreement is whether to state that the language was sometimes called "Little Russian" in the past. Is that statement supported by a reliable source? If so, is there a reason of due weight or balance why it should not be mentioned?

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Mzajac will be added to the list of participants, and should answer the questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Yes, the article should mention that the language has been called “Little Russian” at some times in some places, in a manner compliant with policies. But no, it certainly should not use the term, as it is pejorative language from a colonial legacy (and is currently used to support a violent campaign against Ukrainian nationhood). And as to the specific question at issue, the article should not just cite cherrypicked historical usages by Ukrainians in primary sources without context to imply something about the term’s acceptability. All discussion of the term should be composed with awareness of its context (including the meaning and implications of “Little Russia” and “Little Russian” , colonial relationships, and imperial censorship), avoid WP:SYNTH, and be used to provide information supported by recent reliable sources. And also note that the primary sources in question actually use several different terms, with different meanings, in different languages: malorusskoĭ litaraturě (“of Little-Russian literature”), malorossiĭsʹkym narichchiam (“in the Little-Russian dialect”), iazyka maloruskoho (“of the Little-Ruthenian language/tongue”), malorossiĭskago narěchiia (“of the Little-Russian dialect”), Malorossiĭskaia Eneida (“Little-Russian Aeneid”). —Michael Z. 06:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Question It seems to me that this edit by Crash48 means that the mediation has failed, according to rule D, no. 5. Am I right ? Rsk6400 (talk) 06:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The edit I want included in the article is . Every statement added therein is attributed to a RS. Austronesier's statement at WP:ARC, although based on a slanderous premise misrepresenting a clearly attributed citation from Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute as my own OR, nevertheless confirmed Rublamb's earlier statement at Talk:Ukrainian language that citing primary sources is allowed as illustrative material for a conclusion which is itself cited from secondary sources.

As for other content issues: after I had filed this DR request, a new content dispute developed, unrelated to the mentions of Little Russian language. Rsk6400 insists on using the phrasing During the century after the 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement, Kyiv and the parts of Ukraine east of the Dnipro river gradually lost their autonomy in favour of tighter control by Russia. An unsuspecting reader may infer from this phrasing that East Ukraine gradually lost autonomy after being incorporated into the Tsardom of Russia, while West Ukraine retained its pre-1654 autonomy for another century at least. The actual history is exactly the opposite: after the forceful polonisation precipitated the Khmelnytsky Uprising in 1648, East Ukraine broke away from the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and enjoyed a short-lived autonomy under the Tsardom of Russia, while West Ukraine remained under Polish oppression, and couldn't attain autonomy until after the Great War. This is why I want to change the misleading sentence into The 1654 Pereiaslav Agreement divided Ukraine between the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Tsardom of Russia. During the following century, both monarchies became increasingly intolerant of Ukrainian own cultural and political aspirations., which Rsk6400 opposes. --Crash48 (talk) 17:25, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

I will not fail a moderation for an edit of the article so soon after I provided the rules, but I will restate that Rule D.5 states not to edit the article while discussion is in progress.

One editor calls for a use-mention distinction about the terminology "Little Russian". Is there agreement that this is the right approach? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

One editor has identified another content issue. If I understand correctly, what is agreed is that after 1654, Eastern Ukraine was part of the Tsardom of Russia, and Western Ukraine was under the rule of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The question of which state can be considered more autonomous is a national point of view. Is this disagreement about the wording of the Ukrainian language article, and where, or is it about the content of a different article? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Are there any other content issues?

Second statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The proposed edit demonstrates the dangers of “citing primary sources as illustrative material,” as at least one of the statements uses WP:OR to incorporate a misinterpretation of the primary source: “As late as 1845, the Ukrainian poet and philologist Ivan Vahylevych referred to his language as Little Russian.” it says, but that is false. According to the Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Vahylevych’s work is “his published Polish grammar of the ‘Little Ruthenian’ language in Galicia (1845).” The title is Grammatyka Jȩzyka Małoruskiego w Galicii (Polish) or Hrammatyka Iazyka Malorusʹkoho v Halytsïy (Ukrainian/Rusyn), meaning “of Little Ruthenia” or “of Little Rus,” and definitely not “of Little Russia” (which would be “Małorosyjskiego” or “Malorosiĭsʹkoho”). This is clearly supported by the Polish-language passages in the right-hand side of the referenced image file, where we can see distinct mentions of both Russia (Róssia/Россїѧ) and Ruthenia/Rus (Ruś/Рꙋ́сь).

I don’t think the other assumptions in the proposal about vocabulary use are any more reliable, and presenting the collection of unreliable factoids to imply a pattern and encourage particular conclusion is engaging in an insidious form of WP:SYNTH. Instead, we should say what RS say about the historical use of the terminology, directly supported by them.

Although the question of autonomy in the seventeenth century is not directly relevant to this dispute, the issue of the division of Ukraine between empires and the treatment of Ukrainians and Ukraine therein is. Most of the sources in question are from the period of the Ukrainian National Revival in the nineteenth century. In this period, Ukraine continued to be called Ruthenia (a Latinization of Rusʹ) in the Habsburg empire (including Red Ruthenia, Chervona Rusʹ, and Carpathian Ruthenia, Karpatsʹka Rusʹ), but was named “Little Russia,” Malorossiia, in the Russian empire. We must also make the distinction between the medieval and early Modern term Mala Rusʹ/Malaia Rusʹ, and the Russian-empire colonial term Malorossiia, which had a different connotation. A Ukrainians was called a rusyn or rusnak, but the Russian empire invented a new term, maloros.

The Russian labelling was a colonial imposition accompanied by bans on Ukrainian language and violent denial and suppression of Ukrainian identity in ways that did not occur elsewhere (see, e.g., all-Russian nation). The fact that Ukrainians who were subject to this colonization for generations used the colonial vocabulary (or rather that their publishers who wanted to stay in business did) should not be put forward without context and explanation to draw mistaken conclusions from. —Michael Z. 18:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Please respond to the moderator and write about the subject and not about other editors.

avoids any kind of comparison between West and East Ukraine, thereby keeping any national point of view out of the article

What does that mean? The division of Ukraine between empires and their respective treatment of it over the entire early Modern and Modern periods is extremely important to the subject. When Ukrainian language was banned in Russia, Ukrainians could travel to the Habsburg empire to publish their work in Ukrainian (e.g., look at Mykhailo Hrushevsky’s entire career). And when the Soviets conducted genocide, purges of Ukrainian cultural elites, and forcibly Russified the language in the 1930s, it was preserved in western Ukraine and then in the diaspora. This is a fundamental influence on the development of Ukrainian culture, literature, scientific knowledge, nationhood, and especially language. It’s one of the main narratives in every good history of Ukraine.  —Michael Z. 00:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

The use–mention distinction is totally irrelevant to the dispute at hand,

--Crash48 (talk) 23:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Ukrainian language)

Let's start over. First, read DRN Rule D again. Rule D4 says, "Comment on content, not contributors". It then says, "Discuss edits, not editors". These two instructions are the same, and are repeated because they need repeating. Second, read the ArbCom ruling, as amended, on Eastern Europe. The contentious topics procedure is in place largely to control battleground editing about areas that are or have been real battlegrounds, and too much blood is being shed in Ukraine. Disruptive editing may be dealt with summarily at Arbitration Enforcement. Also, read the boomerang essay before asking the moderator to fail the moderated discussion. If the moderated discussion is failed, the next stop will probably be WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. Try to avoid those conduct forums. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Third, there appear to be two content issues. The first has to do with the term "Little Russian". The second has to do with the subsection "Under Lithuania/Poland, Muscovy/Russia and Austria-Hungary". We will discuss them separately, commenting on content, not contributors. I am neutral, but I will be active in trying to implement neutral point of view, which is the second pillar of Misplaced Pages.

Are we in agreement that the term "Little Russian" should be mentioned, but that it should also be noted that the term is considered pejorative, at least in modern times? Since the purpose of dispute resolution is to improve the encyclopedia, state exactly where you want to change what the article says, or what you want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. Just tell what if anything you want to change in the article.

There are clearly two viewpoints about the history of the Ukrainian language in Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine, because there are two viewpoints on the history of Ukraine. There are two ways to deal with the conflicting points of view. The two options do not include selecting either of the two viewpoints. We should not make any statements comparing the autonomy of cultural development in the voice of Misplaced Pages. Either we can state that there are at least two viewpoints on the history of the Ukrainian language, and present both viewpoints as viewpoints, or we can cut down the Ukrainian history to a minimum to state only that the language developed with different influences in the two parts of the country.

What changes if any do the editors want to make concerning the phrase "Little Russian"? Which approach should be used concerning the disputed history subsection? Are there any other article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

The term "Little Russian" became pejorative in the 20th century. We may mention that it is currently considered pejorative, but then we must also clarify that it was not considered pejorative at the time. There is no need to detail the reasons why the term became pejorative.

By way of example, the original name of And Then There Were None came to be seen as offensive in modern times; but nevertheless, the name features prominently in the article, appearing in bold in the lead paragraph, on the infobox cover, etc. The article includes a timeline of the name change, but does not explain any of the reasons why the original name became offensive, nor any description whatsoever of the African-American history.

This is exactly the approach I propose for the Ukrainian language article too. The suggestion that the history of Russian imperialism must be recounted in any article that mentions the term "Little Russian" is ridiculous and WP:UNDUE.

Crash48 (talk) 06:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian language)

Comment on content, not contributors.

Read Be Specific at DRN. This applies in particular to the phrase "Little Russian". Exactly what does each editor want the article to say about "Little Russian", and where? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Please state what approach each editor wants to take with respect to the history section. Do you want to expand it to present different national points of view, or to trim it down to a minimum, or do you have a different proposal that maintains neutral point of view?

Fourth statements by editors (Ukrainian language)

Robert McClenon, it seems to me that there is a mistake. I think that you didn't notice that Crash48 made their problematic edit more than 24 hours after they pledged to follow the rules, not (as you put it in your 2nd statement) "so soon after I provided the rules". The edit that was done soon after you provided the rules, was mine. And I only reverted to status quo. Also, I didn't comment on contributors, I asked a procedural question, in good faith. I don't see a reason to advise me to read the boomerang text. Finally, I didn't ask you to fail this mediation, but I asked you how to deal with the situation. As I see it, a possible continuation of this mediation demands that we return to status quo at the article.

To avoid further confusion, here's the chronology of relevant edits:

1. 10:35, 22 November 2023 Crash48 starts this thread
2. 22:20, 24 November 2023 (with a minor correction at 22:25, 24 November 2023) Crash48 changes Ukrainian language.
3. 23:21, 24 November 2023 Robert McClenon makes the "Zeroth statement by possible moderator"
4. 09:12, 25 November 2023‎ I revert to status quo at Ukrainian language
5. 09:04, 28 November 2023 I pledge to follow the rules (0th statement)
6. 16:58, 28 November 2023 Crash48 makes the same pledge
7. 17:57, 29 November 2023‎ Crash48 makes the edit that I consider problematic. Rsk6400 (talk) 08:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (Ukrainian language)

Yola language

After discussion, there is agreement that the language had become functionally extinct in the nineteenth century. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:14, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Hussainiwala

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Battle of Hussainiwala (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• VirtualVagabond (talk · contribs)
• Aman.kumar.goel (talk · contribs)
• MrGreen1163 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Dispute if the Battle of Hussainiwala should be classified as a Pakistani victory when the Pakistan army successfully captured it during the 1971 war.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk: Battle of Hussainiwala

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

By hearing both sides, and observing every single point and context. Then to hopefully solve the dispute.

Summary of dispute by Aman Kumar Goel

Summary of dispute by MrGreen1163

Battle of Hussainiwala discussion

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Horst Wessel

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Closed as poorly filed and as not an article content dispute. The filing editor has not taken part in discussion on the article talk page, and has not listed or notified any editors. There is already an RFC running on the article, about what the lede sentence should be, but this editor's issue seems to be about an editor, and the filing editor appears to be asking for an editor to be topic-banned. This noticeboard is not the place to report a problem with a user. Report conduct at WP:ANI or at Arbitration Enforcement. Or don't report it. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

1. File:Ukrainian Language in Galicia 1845.jpg

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