Talk:Graham Linehan: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 16:32, 2 January 2024 editLukewarmbeer (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers1,946 edits →Anti-trans activist label: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 12:54, 3 January 2024 edit undoMr Miles (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,098 edits Career sectionTag: RevertedNext edit →
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	:That article has now been created: ]. The (relatively) newly-created account (42 edits) referred to Linehan in the lede as 'gender critical', with one reference, so I've updated to reflect the references used on this article. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)		:That article has now been created: ]. The (relatively) newly-created account (42 edits) referred to Linehan in the lede as 'gender critical', with one reference, so I've updated to reflect the references used on this article. ]<sup>]</sup> 11:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

			== ''Career'' ==

			Linehan's has written several of the most famous shows on British TV. Why is the article's 'Career' section only one fifth of the length of the Anti-Trans Activism section? I doubt most people even know that he's an activist ] (]) 12:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:54, 3 January 2024

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Anti-trans activist label

Not going to get pulled into the mud slinging on this, but in all objectivity 'anti-trans activist' is a very contentious and controversial description, for which there's never going to be consensus and for which at the very least there would need to be a citation/source, preferably from the person himself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomsega (talk • contribs) 11:54, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The lead sentence in a BLP usually states a person's name, date of birth, nationality and what they are notable for - which may or may not be "a job". Linehan is absolutely best known now as both a comedy writer and an anti-trans activist. The lead does not need to be referenced, as it summarises the body of the article. We generally do not use what the subject of a biography says about themselves - see WP:SPS. There are multiple reliable sources in the article body describing Linehan's anti-trans activism and describing him as such. And there is absolutely consensus for inclusion of the term to describe Linehan. See the FAQ. Bastun 12:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

@Bastun To define an individual in such a way, the facts really ought to be incontrovertible. I'm not sure any of the given sources adequately evidence the "anti-trans" label beyond echoing what were straw men arguments to begin with. He certainly doesn't deny individual freedom on this issue (as religious leaders and authoritarian regimes do). From what I gather, he has publically questioned early affirmation and things like puberty blockers. This wouldn't seem to justify the leap to define someone as an "anti-trans activist" any more than, say, if a celebrity questioned the practise of circumcision, and the Wiki jumped to state "actor, singer, antisemite."

I don't particularly give a toss, of course, and I can see the argument (over how to define his views) either way; the point is this is too questionable a thing to state so matter-of-factly. Tomsega (talk) 21:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

The thing is though, Linehan hasn't just criticised youth transitioning and puberty blockers. There's a large section in the article dedicated to his anti-transgender activism in great detail, including far more than the two arguments you refer to. Reliable sources widely describe him as being an anti-transgender activist, and that's what we go with. ser! 21:50, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you actually offer a credible source that defines him as an anti-trans activist, though, other than the likes of Pink News? Most only state that he's courted controversy by wading into this. Others are taken out of context or take statements out of context. The Irish Times article typifies this, with a nuanced position within, " is obviously wonderful ... I disagree fundamentally with certain aspects of current activism. They don’t realise the damage done by certain outrageous claims.” The title is then reduced to just 'Trans activists don't realise the damage they do.'

Again, mentioning the point in the third paragraph would be fair enough; stating 'anti-trans activist' like it's a defining occupation in the opening line is subjective, ideological, and deserving of a citation needed tag. (And in my view, painting those who live only a couple of doorsteps down on the political spectrum as extremists -- when there are scores of actual fascists and fundamentalists at the other end of the street -- is the shame of the culture wars).

Tomsega (talk) 08:23, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you actually offer a credible source that defines him as an anti-trans activist, though, other than the likes of Pink News? – Yes, plenty. They're already cited in the article body. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 09:32, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I remain unconvinced. I don't believe the sources are credible enough or fair and balanced. That's my view and I can only disagree (accepting that any other view would be reverted by one section of the community in any case).Tomsega (talk) 10:05, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

this isn't demonstrating a 'nuanced' take, this is him couching transphobia in language that gives him a way out by shallowly claiming support. it's intellectual cowardice and a common tactic used by other anti trans activists. Minty420 (talk) 07:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

also unrelated but transphobic activists like lineham ARE the fascists and fundamentalists you referred to earlier. Minty420 (talk) 07:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

LOL. That's a hilarious statement about Lineham who is known to have been all his life a Socialist and an atheist. Hubertgrove (talk) 11:06, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

That's nice, you're entitled to your opinion. Nonetheless, there is a significant number of reliable sources that describe Linehan as an anti-trans activist. In fact, here's an interview with him where the interviewer opened by describing him as a crusader against transgender activism, and his response essentially embraces it, to the extent he defends calling transgender activists "Nazis". Misplaced Pages goes by what the reliable sources say. Bastun 11:15, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Re: 'Misplaced Pages goes by what the reliable sources say', there's also an obligation for the citations to accurately reflect what's contained - even more pressing when these sources are random websites and magazines, not academic ones. I don't believe there is any source here to evidence Graham Linehan calling transgender activists nazis in any direct way. Again, if you'd care to read the quotes in context:

"I’m now in a position where I can now answer the question honestly of, if you were around the time of something terrible happening like Nazism, or whatever it happened to be, would you be one of the people who said, “No, this is wrong”, despite being opposed? I feel happy in myself that I’ve been one of the people standing up and saying “no, this is wrong”"

The point is an analogy with authoritarianism, ie., 'would you speak out for what you think is right even if there are dire repercussions?' Many have made this comparison between cancel culture and authoritarianism. And it's willful misrepresentation to leap at this remark and equate it with him directly calling not just some but ALL trans activities "nazis" (obviously Pink News was very eager to paint these remarks as such). It's a bit like defining Richard Dawkins as an Islamophobe in one sentence and choosing only the Muslim Herald as the source to back that up. Tomsega (talk) 15:04, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

You went off on a tangent here, since the article does not cite him calling transgender activists "Nazis." But all this is beside the point: the article has plenty of WP:RSes that label him as anti-transgender. The fact you personally are not convinced is irrelevant. You can either start following dispute resolution to try and invalidate all those RSes, or just accept that you're not going to make any headway here. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:22, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I think we're starting to veer into WP:ICANTHEARYOU territory now. Bastun 15:27, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed on that.. Tomsega (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The phrasing is in clear violation of WP:BLP, in particular using activist wording in violation of WP:BLPSTYLE: "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement. Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects, and in some circumstances what the subjects have published about themselves". I've gone ahead and updated the FAQ to be policy based instead of POV based. Reviewing the article as a whole, it's clear that there has been some serious activist editing, and the entire section is in violation of WP:NPOV. TheMissingMuse (talk) 01:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I reverted the FAQ change. There's already a BLP reminder just below the FAQ, and removing any reference to existing consensus on the "anti-trans acitivist" topic is unhelpful. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

As written, the FAQ answer advocates for violation of WP:BLP. TheMissingMuse (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. WP:BLPSTYLE tells us that Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects. In this circumstance, reliable secondary sources, as cited in the article, describe Linehan as an anti-trans activist. For us to document that in a non-partisan manner, we use the descriptors that they do. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:29, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

On this point, it's clear there is no consensus. The FAQ advocates for a partisan description in clear violation of WP:BLPSTYLE. Non-partisan here does not mean "repeating the exact phrasing used by partisan sources". TheMissingMuse (talk) 02:32, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages documenting something in a non-partisan manner often means we adopt partisan labels, when those are how a given topic are described by reliable sources. To do otherwise would see us breach WP:NPOV, as it would see us engaging with a dispute instead of describing one. In that respect, we are biased towards how reliable sources describe a topic, and biased against how unreliable sources describe a topic. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I can only suggest that you spend more time reviewing WP:BLP. Policies for BLP pages are more conservative and careful than other articles. TheMissingMuse (talk) 03:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

the entire section is in violation of WP:NPOV @TheMissingMuse: can you give some examples or more detail? Popcornfud (talk) 02:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence of the section is a perfect example: Linehan became involved in anti-transgender activism after the 2008 episode "The Speech" of The IT Crowd, written by Linehan, was widely criticised as transphobic and sexist when it was repeated in 2013. That sentence not supported by any source at all. The citation is to a link dump of a variety of partisan articles generally not appropriate for a WP:BLP. I'm actually agog to see that kind of citation practice is being used WP:BLP. You have a highly partisan statement in violation of WP:BLP without any kind of direct sourcing support. TheMissingMuse (talk) 02:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

That sentence is supported by a citation bundle, a long established practice across many article types, including BLPs. In addition to several high quality media sources, there are also two scholarly sources, so this very much represents high quality sourcing. While the bulk of the sources are there to support the descriptor of anti-trans activist, the Empire and Eugenics research paper supports the assertion about the specific episode of The IT Crowd being Linehan's entry point into anti-trans activism. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Although I haven't gone through all the citations in that bundle, I do think MissingMuse has a point in that it's very difficult to know exactly which citation any part of that sentence is supported by. Popcornfud (talk) 02:54, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I've reviewed those sources, and none of the articles have wording remotely supporting that sentence. If I am mistaken about this, anyone should be able to highlight the specific source, and the wording used in that source. TheMissingMuse (talk) 02:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

From Empire and Eugenics: This online transphobia has been spearheaded by former comedy writer Graham Lineham, who took to the 'gender critical' movement after an episode of his television show The IT Crowd was criticised for its offensive portrayal of a trans woman. Note the source does misspell Linehan's surname if you're trying to do search on it's text. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

That quote does not support the first sentence of the section. If you really think that "Linehan became involved in anti-transgender activism after the 2008 episode "The Speech" of The IT Crowd, written by Linehan, was widely criticised as transphobic and sexist when it was repeated in 2013" is a paraphrasing of "This online transphobia has been spearheaded by former comedy writer Graham Lineham, who took to the 'gender critical' movement after an episode of his television show The IT Crowd was criticised for its offensive portrayal of a trans woman" there is not much to discuss here. TheMissingMuse (talk) 03:02, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how it's not the same sentiment? Both sentences make the point that Linehan became involved in anti-transgender activism/transphobia after the transphobic IT Crowd episode.

Am I missing something here? It's very obviously a paraphrase to me. DeputyBeagle (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

It's not our job to use sentiment as guide for making up facts. If a fact is not supported by the source, it should not be included in the article. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:04, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems like a straight paraphrase to me as well. I'm simply not seeing your objection here. --Aquillion (talk) 04:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

The sentence in the source does not say that he became involved in activism, list the year of the re-showing, and does not characterize the criticism as 'widely' or 'transphobic'. TheMissingMuse (talk) 05:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Well that's why we have a citation bundle. Oftentimes to get the complete story set out in wikivoice, we need to splice together thoughts from multiple sources. The Guardian article cited calls it activism. The Independent article cited in the next sentence says the episode has been criticised as transphobic.

From a cursory glance over the sources I haven't spotted one that cites the year of the rerun, but I may be missing it. If it's not there I can't imagine it would be hard to source, and it's not a particularly egregious or WP:BLP violating issue. DeputyBeagle (talk) 09:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

You are describing WP:SYNTH. If you want to make factual statements about a living person, you have to have sources which directly supports the content. TheMissingMuse (talk) 00:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I think you may have misunderstood the point of WP:SYNTH. It's not saying that any combining of sources is bad, but that combining of sources to present an new argument not expressed in either source is OR. That's not what's happening here. DeputyBeagle (talk) 10:34, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Given that the sentence has been updated, I'm not sure I understand your position here. Can you be specific with respect to changes you think should be made to the existing article? TheMissingMuse (talk) 21:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

If it's felt that this is an issue, we could move bundle 29 earlier in the sentence, as all of the sources support the descriptor, and then re-cite the Empire and Eugenics paper specifically for the fact about the episode's reception? That would I think address that problem. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:57, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be fine. I would propose unbundling the anti-trans activism clause from the info about the episode. Something like:

Linehan is involved in anti-transgender activism. The 2008 episode "The Speech" of The IT Crowd, written by Linehan, was widely criticised as transphobic and sexist when it was repeated in 2013.

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:05, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

That first sentence is going to need some robust secondary (preferably tertiary) sourcing from a mainstream non-partisan outlet. TheMissingMuse (talk) 03:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Since that objection applies also to the status quo, does the proposal seem to you to be an incremental improvement? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:24, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

It's certainly an improvement. TheMissingMuse (talk) 03:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

> mainstream non-partisan outlet

Can you give some examples? It's hard to think of an outlet that everyone with an opinion on this issue would agree is "non-partisan". Popcornfud (talk) 12:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

News articles from mainstream national organizations with wide circulation and readership. Like NYT, BBC, Washington Post, BBC, Wall Street Journal, Associated Press, The Atlantic, Bloomberg, CNN, The Economist, Forbes, LA Times. Etc. Partisan sources that have a vested interest in controversial topics covered in a BLP should generally be avoided, but if they are included they should be directly attributed. Sources like academic papers are not generally useful as they have a narrow readership and cannot be used to establish WP:DUE weight, especially for BLP articles. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to the idea of unbundling it, but that wording definitely needs working on. By making them seperate sentences like that it almost downplays his transgender activism by swiftly moving onto the criticism of the episode, rather than showing that the criticism of him and of the episode are linked. DeputyBeagle (talk) 15:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I could see unbundling the activism clause from the rest of the sentence, but I'm not sure I agree with this specific proposal. It gets the cause and effect the wrong way around. The sentence ordering somewhat implies that the episode was an instance of his activism, whereas the sourcing states he got into the activism because the episode was criticised. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Trying to address your and DeputyBeagle's reasonable concerns, could we go with:

Linehan is involved in anti-transgender activism. He began making anti-trans statements online after the episode "The Speech" of The IT Crowd, written by Linehan, was widely criticised as transphobic and sexist.

First sentence would get the bundle, second sentence would get Empire and Eugenics. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more sources out there for the timeline, but E&E doesn't quite cover the old 2008/2013 language. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:33, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I like this. If we want to include the years, which I think would be informative as it shows that Linehan's anti-trans views weren't always present, and gives context for why his career as TV comedy writer just stops in the early 2010s, there was an interview with him earlier this year in The Times that amongst other content says He knew virtually nothing about this now consuming subject until 2013, the year a 2008 IT Crowd featuring a trans subplot was repeated. We already cite this interview extensively in the article (cite number 19).

Cite wise, I'd keep the bundle for the first sentence as FFF suggests, and then use both Empire and Eugenics and The Times for the second. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Yep I like this wording a lot better DeputyBeagle (talk) 09:12, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

The first problem with that sentence is the wording: 'anti-transgender activism'. Linehan is not an activist of an anti transgender sort, he is, though, against transgender activism. The sentence's meaning can easily be read to label him transphobic (anti transgender) when he is very obviously not and often says so. Tracy Picabia (talk) 09:58, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

We have covered this so many times. Read the archives and the FAQ. DeputyBeagle (talk) 10:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I think we may be missing something here if we just say "We have covered this so many times".

Can we not find some alternative or supplementary wording that would improve the article and prevent the "so many" from feeling the need to make the same point?

If we gathered together that "so many" our consensus might change.

Either way it shouldn't be left unaddressed. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 14:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It hasn't been left unaddressed, though. It's been addressed multiple times, with the same arguments coming up again and again, mostly being made by newly-created single-purpose accounts. The bottom line is we report on what the sources say, and there is ample justification for using the wording that we are using. And when somebody arrives again, and makes the same old arguments, then all we can do is refer them to the archives and the FAQ. Bastun 15:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

You seem to dismiss people who are interested enough to create the "newly-created single-purpose accounts". Is that reasonable?

You also acknowledge that not all are.

I'd totally agree that many RS describe Linehan as an anti transgender activist. What I can never find is any that really state what that is. I would suggest that many of the editors raising objections to this description of Linehan see it as some kind of dismissive smear of the points he has raised, some would see it as inaccurate because they haven't grasped the fundamental principle of that it's RS not Truth that make Misplaced Pages - which is it's greatest strength and weakness. Much of the RS we rely on here would be regarded as opinion peices in other articles - but with this type of article there isn't much else to go on.

Anyway those are my thoughts on why these issues have to be covered so many times. It tells me that the article needs improvement (like a brief elaboration on what we actually mean) - not that we have the 'wrong type of interest' in it. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 08:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair points. With regard to the new accounts, my frustration arises from the fact that it's usually obvious that they haven't bothered to read recent discussions on this talk page, let alone the FAQ or the archives, and most seem to follow the pattern of "(how dare you, this is a disgrace,) change anti-trans activist to gender critical." If someone wants to know what anti-trans activism is, though, they can a) follow the link; or b) read further into the article. Bastun 10:53, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for being open minded about that.

I agree that people rarely read as much as they should - and with the amount of stuff we generate in these discussions I can be guilty of that too.

In our Lead we say is "an Irish comedy writer and anti-transgender activist" linking to the Transphobia article.

When we refer to Transgender Activism we link to the Transgender rights movementarticle - which is a much broader topic.

That seems to me where we start to fall down on this. We are effectively saying (among other things) that he supports fearing, being adverse to, hating, being violent towards, or angry towards people who do not conform to social gender roles.

I don't think the sources support that. They do describe him as an anti transgender activist but they don't define that. Neither do we so we need to tidy up what we mean.

Without trying to revise other articles on this could we say that Linehan is described as an anti transgender activist in that he actively opposes many (several, some??) tenants of the Transgender rights movement?

Maybe you can find a better way but can we look for something that more accurately describes what the generally wooly sources actually do say about him. Our references really aren't helpful on this. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 11:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, we had a discussion a while back because it used to be phrased that he was against transgender activism, and the result was to change it.

I don't think the wording we have right now is very clear, and it could do with clarifying, but it was the result of intense discussion and compromise DeputyBeagle (talk) 11:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 16:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Being against transgender rights is anti-trans. Flat-out. He doesn't just oppose specific bits of trans rights activism, he opposes trans rights activism as a whole. That's just plain anti-transgender, and his activism is focused on belittling and harassing transgender individuals & rights groups. The man attempts to hide his transphobia as "women's rights" advocacy, but we have lots of RSes that see right through it to label him as anti-trans. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:00, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Anti-trans activist label sourcing

I don't think we need two sections on the same subject. This one has been dormant for a couple of weeks, so collapsing.
The recent edit is an improvement, but citation bundle is still a mess. The sentence being supported is: Linehan is involved in anti-transgender activism Reviewing the sourcing, we only need Guardian. 14 April 2022 source to support this sentence. The rest of the citations are lower quality, with many of them not supporting the activist label. The nonsupporting and unnecessary citations should be removed. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC) No. Contentious descriptors, such as anti-trans activist, require multiple sources per both WP:BLPSTYLE, WP:BLPRS, and WP:VOICE. The quality of the citations within the bundle are fine. There are multiple high quality news organisations, one research paper, and one chapter of a book published by a reputable university press. This is fully in line with WP:BESTSOURCES and WP:BLPRS. I did however correct one mistaken citation in the bundle. observer.com is not The Observer (a UK compact and sister paper to The Guardian), it is The New York Observer. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:40, 7 December 2023 (UTC) Your phrasing is interesting. You lead with the goal, that the political descriptor remain. Since that requires multiple sources, you're opposed to removing the bundle. Since sources must be reliable, you assert that these sources are reliable. That it's not AT ALL clear to readers WHICH sources in that bundle support the descriptor and HOW they do is not considered a problem to you, as your goal as a "trans activist" (mentioned on your Talk page) is for the political descriptor to remain. Why activist-types are allowed to camp out on BPL pages is beyond me. BrianH123 (talk) 20:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC) For the record, there's nothing on her talk page about being a "trans activist", nor her user page. But in any case, please don't cast aspersions on other editors. WP:Focus on content, not on other editors or what's on their pages. Thanks. ser! 21:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC) Ser beat me to it, but I'll add comment on content, not contributors and ask you to strike your comment. I'm equally lost as to where you got "trans activist" from, but if you were in fact referring to her user page where she says she's trans I'll just note that "trans" =/= "activist". Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:11, 20 December 2023 (UTC) Most of these sources are green at WP:RSP. Now, not all sources that are green at WP:RSP are of equal quality (e.g. the NYT and an arbitrary medical journal would both be generally reliable, but I know which one I'd go with if they disagreed on a medical issue), but they're all of sufficient quality to be used to cite this statement. Loki (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC) In this case, it's their reliability and relevance that is in question. Several of the cited sources are non-supporting, a couple are not of sufficient quality: The Guardian: supports Manchester University Press: no support for activism The New York Observer: Not a generally reliable source after being acquired by Jerrod Kushner Vox: no support for activism Pink News: supports Transgender Studies: Note, this source not only cites no other sources for the statement, but also gets Linehan's name wrong. This is a low quality primary source, not suitable WP:BLP without secondary sourcing establishing WP:DUEWEIGHT. Rabble: no support for activism The Independent: no support for activism Of the sources in the bundle, only two of them have the necessary reliability and content to support the opening sentence. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC) You can also use "gender-critical activism" of course as they're the same thing, gender-critical being the "nice" way of saying transphobic. Here's The Times with "gender-critical activist" , or the Independent . Black Kite (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC) The issue isn't which term being used. It's the sourcing of the term. As noted above, only two sources in the bundle are appropriate for sourcing the sentence they are attached to. The other sources should be removed - or attached to content that the sources support. I will add that the sources Black Kite links to are of much higher quality than most of the sources currently in the bundle. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2023 (UTC) "You can also use "gender-critical activism" of course as they're the same thing, gender-critical being the "nice" way of saying transphobic" That's nothing but facetious WP:SYNTH; these two are not even remotely synonymous. You cannot infer "anti-trans activist" from "gender-critical". Zilch-nada (talk) 22:02, 20 December 2023 (UTC) No, those are essentially the same thing. Note we're not saying that in the article, but we're fully free to say it here. GC is just the polite way of saying transphobic. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC) "we're not saying that in the article": then why did @Black Kite say "You can also use "gender-critical activism" of course" concerning "of the sources in the bundle"? Suggesting that "anti-trans" can be inferred from "gender-critical" was clearly an argument concerning the article, as we are discussing sources. "GC is just the polite way of saying transphobic" - seriously, . That is nothing but a facetious opinion and you know it. Zilch-nada (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2023 (UTC) If you want to infer things, by all means, feel free. I was pointing out that it's not currently in the article, and your outrage is misplaced. And no, it's not "facetious opinion", the entire point of the gender critical movement is to politely push transphobia. Or not so politely, in cases like Linehan. It's similar to how "ethnonationalist" is just a polite word for racism. Arguing that GC and transphobia are not even remotely synonymous is laughable. That said, this page is for debating the inclusion of content in the article. Do you have anything on that front, or is this just WP:FORUM posting? — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC) You're the one inferring nonsense. GC and transphobia are not synonymous. Pick up a thesaurus. Or cite anything reputable saying that "GC is a form of transphobia" as opposed to there being a contentious link, which there is. That link is contentious, not a link that follows the syntax of a thesaurus or dictionary. "GC is just the polite way of saying transphobic" - Because you have backed up this claim with no evidence, I have no duty to acknowledge such a childish, politically-charged, propagandistic statement. Defend your claim "essentially the same thing", please. "That said, this page is for debating the inclusion of content in the article. Do you have anything on that front, or is this just WP:FORUM posting?" Likewise. Zilch-nada (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC) "Pick up a thesaurus" is a ridiculous argument. And since you've devolved to name-calling & ranting, I'm done with you. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC) You implied their synonymity, you ought to back it up. Zilch-nada (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC) Vox supports. Read the sentence before Linehan's name is mentioned. Loki (talk) 02:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC) To be clear, are you agreeing that all the other low quality or non-supporting sources should be moved or removed? This would keep The Guardian, Pink News, and Vox. TheMissingMuse (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC) All I'm saying is that I checked Vox and you're incorrect about what it says. I haven't checked the other sources yet. Loki (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2023 (UTC) Can you quote the portion of Vox that you think supports characterizing Linehan as "involved in anti-transgender activism"? The sentences you refer to make no mention of activism. In fact, activism isn't discussed in the Vox article at all. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2023 (UTC) From the Vox article: It has become increasingly common for upper-class white people to express anti-trans views. For example, Irish comedian Graham Linehan, who now lives in the UK, has become infamous for his Twitter obsession with trans people and trans issues, which he claims is merely "defending women." In context, Linehan is used as an example of "upper-class white people express anti-trans views". That seems like it fully supports it to me. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC) That does not support describing him as an anti-trans activist. As noted, the article doesn't mention activism at all. I'll grant that the artile does mention Linehan once in passing, but this really isn't the kind of source to use in a WP:BLP. I'll update my summary above. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC) Well, go back one more sentence and it says: Wednesday’s ruling has already been seized upon by the usual anti-trans voices who are propping it up as the latest example of the alleged suppression of free speech. It has become increasingly common for upper-class white people to express anti-trans views. For example, Irish comedian Graham Linehan, who now lives in the UK, has become infamous for his Twitter obsession with trans people and trans issues, which he claims is merely “defending women.” A source doesn't have to use the exact words as we do. It's clear in context that they're calling him an anti-trans activist when they say he's one of the usual anti-trans voices. Loki (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2023 (UTC) The article makes no mention of him being an activist, or activism. You are synthesizing that information, which should not be done in a WP:BLP. TheMissingMuse (talk) 23:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC) Upon checking some of the others: Rabble: Supports. Are you just ignoring the headline? And everything before the mention of Linehan's name? It's an article about anti-trans activism, of course it supports activism. Independent: Again, supports activism. Read the previous paragraph. I can't check Manchester University Press right now because of the paywall, but in general I am not impressed by the amount of effort you've put in here. It seems like you just searched Linehan's name and counted it as "no support for activism" if activism was not mentioned in literally the same sentence. Loki (talk) 19:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC) If you think there is support for that characterization, providing the relevant quote would go a long way in clarifying that support. I'm not finding anything in the Independent which characterizes Lineahan as an activist. I do see him characterized as a "gender critical hardliner". You may be referring to the preceding paragraph which does not mention Linehan. Likewise with Rabble, Linehan is mentioned once in passing as one of the "anti-trans bloggers". There is nothing in the article that identifies him as an activist. However, the Rabble articles does say "a popular TERF bullying tactic is to subscribe trans people to these newsletters en masse without their consent." That's something an activist might do, but there is no indication that Linehan is doing that, or that he is described as an activist. We are dealing with a WP:BLP here. If a source isn't clear about these kind of controversial statements, it's not appropriate to use as a source. TheMissingMuse (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2023 (UTC) Independent: The attack has echoes of the extremist QAnon movement and its predecessor, Pizzagate, whose followers believe that celebrities and senior Democrats are united in a fantastical conspiracy to abduct children. It also mirrors rhetoric that has taken root among extreme anti-trans activists in the UK. On Ovarit, an invite-only Reddit clone devoted to “gender critical” discussion, posts tagged “Trans Groomers” stretch back at least a year. Father Ted creator Graham Linehan, a gender critical hardliner who was kicked off Twitter in 2020 for “hateful conduct”, described positive media depictions of trans life as “grooming” as early as December 2020, and has baselessly cast similar aspersions against individual trans people. It's clearly mentioning a phenomenon and then giving specific examples. Rabble: The title of the article is The alt-internet of anti-trans activists. (And this characterization is backed up in the subtitle and the first line of the article.) Everyone mentioned in the article, including Linehan, is being called an anti-trans activist. Loki (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC) You left out the paragraph break that separates the two paragraphs and their topics. The Independent 2022/04/14 article does not describe Linehan's posting on Ovarit or Twitter as activism. As discussed above, the Rabble article is discussing how anti-trans activists are subscribing people to Linehan's Substack. It's not calling him an activist. Binding the headline to anyone mentioned in the article is WP:SYNTH. We should not be using these low quality sources that do not directly support the claim. There are higher quality sources that can be used instead, notably: The Guardian, Pink News, The Times and The Independent 2023/08/17 article about Linehan . TheMissingMuse (talk) 23:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC) You keep insisting they do not directly support the claim but, as Loki demonstrates, many of them do. You're going to need a better argument, or to drop the stick and move on. If you feel there are better cites that support the label... just add them. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC) Loki is developing his own synthesis of the sources, inferring that content in one paragraph applies to another, and that the title applies uniformly to all subjects in the article. This is a clear violation of WP:BLP. It baffles me that these low quality source that mention Linehan only in passing are being used to support content like this when much better sources are available that support the identical content. I suppose the next steps are to bring this to a noticeboard or an RfC. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC) That is not synthesis. If it were, we'd have to scrap 90% of the articles on this site. If you want to claim this is a BLP violation, take it to a report board. I don't think you'll get very far. As I said, if you have better sources, add them. Nothing is preventing you from doing that. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we need two sections on the same subject. This one has been dormant for a couple of weeks, so collapsing.

The recent edit is an improvement, but citation bundle is still a mess. The sentence being supported is:

Linehan is involved in anti-transgender activism

Reviewing the sourcing, we only need Guardian. 14 April 2022 source to support this sentence. The rest of the citations are lower quality, with many of them not supporting the activist label. The nonsupporting and unnecessary citations should be removed. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

No. Contentious descriptors, such as anti-trans activist, require multiple sources per both WP:BLPSTYLE, WP:BLPRS, and WP:VOICE. The quality of the citations within the bundle are fine. There are multiple high quality news organisations, one research paper, and one chapter of a book published by a reputable university press. This is fully in line with WP:BESTSOURCES and WP:BLPRS.

I did however correct one mistaken citation in the bundle. observer.com is not The Observer (a UK compact and sister paper to The Guardian), it is The New York Observer. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:40, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Your phrasing is interesting. You lead with the goal, that the political descriptor remain. Since that requires multiple sources, you're opposed to removing the bundle. Since sources must be reliable, you assert that these sources are reliable. That it's not AT ALL clear to readers WHICH sources in that bundle support the descriptor and HOW they do is not considered a problem to you, as your goal as a "trans activist" (mentioned on your Talk page) is for the political descriptor to remain. Why activist-types are allowed to camp out on BPL pages is beyond me. BrianH123 (talk) 20:54, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

For the record, there's nothing on her talk page about being a "trans activist", nor her user page. But in any case, please don't cast aspersions on other editors. WP:Focus on content, not on other editors or what's on their pages. Thanks. ser! 21:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Ser beat me to it, but I'll add comment on content, not contributors and ask you to strike your comment. I'm equally lost as to where you got "trans activist" from, but if you were in fact referring to her user page where she says she's trans I'll just note that "trans" =/= "activist". Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:11, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Most of these sources are green at WP:RSP. Now, not all sources that are green at WP:RSP are of equal quality (e.g. the NYT and an arbitrary medical journal would both be generally reliable, but I know which one I'd go with if they disagreed on a medical issue), but they're all of sufficient quality to be used to cite this statement. Loki (talk) 23:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

In this case, it's their reliability and relevance that is in question. Several of the cited sources are non-supporting, a couple are not of sufficient quality:

The Guardian: supports
Manchester University Press: no support for activism
The New York Observer: Not a generally reliable source after being acquired by Jerrod Kushner
Vox: no support for activism
Pink News: supports
Transgender Studies: Note, this source not only cites no other sources for the statement, but also gets Linehan's name wrong. This is a low quality primary source, not suitable WP:BLP without secondary sourcing establishing WP:DUEWEIGHT.
Rabble: no support for activism
The Independent: no support for activism

Of the sources in the bundle, only two of them have the necessary reliability and content to support the opening sentence. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

You can also use "gender-critical activism" of course as they're the same thing, gender-critical being the "nice" way of saying transphobic. Here's The Times with "gender-critical activist" , or the Independent . Black Kite (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

The issue isn't which term being used. It's the sourcing of the term. As noted above, only two sources in the bundle are appropriate for sourcing the sentence they are attached to. The other sources should be removed - or attached to content that the sources support.

I will add that the sources Black Kite links to are of much higher quality than most of the sources currently in the bundle. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

"You can also use "gender-critical activism" of course as they're the same thing, gender-critical being the "nice" way of saying transphobic"

That's nothing but facetious WP:SYNTH; these two are not even remotely synonymous. You cannot infer "anti-trans activist" from "gender-critical". Zilch-nada (talk) 22:02, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

No, those are essentially the same thing. Note we're not saying that in the article, but we're fully free to say it here. GC is just the polite way of saying transphobic. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

"we're not saying that in the article": then why did @Black Kite say "You can also use "gender-critical activism" of course" concerning "of the sources in the bundle"? Suggesting that "anti-trans" can be inferred from "gender-critical" was clearly an argument concerning the article, as we are discussing sources.

"GC is just the polite way of saying transphobic" - seriously, . That is nothing but a facetious opinion and you know it. Zilch-nada (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

If you want to infer things, by all means, feel free. I was pointing out that it's not currently in the article, and your outrage is misplaced.

And no, it's not "facetious opinion", the entire point of the gender critical movement is to politely push transphobia. Or not so politely, in cases like Linehan. It's similar to how "ethnonationalist" is just a polite word for racism. Arguing that GC and transphobia are not even remotely synonymous is laughable.

That said, this page is for debating the inclusion of content in the article. Do you have anything on that front, or is this just WP:FORUM posting? — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

You're the one inferring nonsense. GC and transphobia are not synonymous. Pick up a thesaurus. Or cite anything reputable saying that "GC is a form of transphobia" as opposed to there being a contentious link, which there is. That link is contentious, not a link that follows the syntax of a thesaurus or dictionary.

"GC is just the polite way of saying transphobic" - Because you have backed up this claim with no evidence, I have no duty to acknowledge such a childish, politically-charged, propagandistic statement. Defend your claim "essentially the same thing", please.

"That said, this page is for debating the inclusion of content in the article. Do you have anything on that front, or is this just WP:FORUM posting?" Likewise. Zilch-nada (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

"Pick up a thesaurus" is a ridiculous argument. And since you've devolved to name-calling & ranting, I'm done with you. — The Hand That Feeds You: 23:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

You implied their synonymity, you ought to back it up. Zilch-nada (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Vox supports. Read the sentence before Linehan's name is mentioned. Loki (talk) 02:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, are you agreeing that all the other low quality or non-supporting sources should be moved or removed? This would keep The Guardian, Pink News, and Vox. TheMissingMuse (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that I checked Vox and you're incorrect about what it says. I haven't checked the other sources yet. Loki (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Can you quote the portion of Vox that you think supports characterizing Linehan as "involved in anti-transgender activism"? The sentences you refer to make no mention of activism. In fact, activism isn't discussed in the Vox article at all. TheMissingMuse (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

From the Vox article: It has become increasingly common for upper-class white people to express anti-trans views. For example, Irish comedian Graham Linehan, who now lives in the UK, has become infamous for his Twitter obsession with trans people and trans issues, which he claims is merely "defending women." In context, Linehan is used as an example of "upper-class white people express anti-trans views". That seems like it fully supports it to me. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

That does not support describing him as an anti-trans activist. As noted, the article doesn't mention activism at all. I'll grant that the artile does mention Linehan once in passing, but this really isn't the kind of source to use in a WP:BLP. I'll update my summary above. TheMissingMuse (talk) 22:32, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, go back one more sentence and it says:

Wednesday’s ruling has already been seized upon by the usual anti-trans voices who are propping it up as the latest example of the alleged suppression of free speech. It has become increasingly common for upper-class white people to express anti-trans views. For example, Irish comedian Graham Linehan, who now lives in the UK, has become infamous for his Twitter obsession with trans people and trans issues, which he claims is merely “defending women.”

A source doesn't have to use the exact words as we do. It's clear in context that they're calling him an anti-trans activist when they say he's one of the usual anti-trans voices. Loki (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The article makes no mention of him being an activist, or activism. You are synthesizing that information, which should not be done in a WP:BLP. TheMissingMuse (talk) 23:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Upon checking some of the others:

Rabble: Supports. Are you just ignoring the headline? And everything before the mention of Linehan's name? It's an article about anti-trans activism, of course it supports activism.
Independent: Again, supports activism. Read the previous paragraph.

I can't check Manchester University Press right now because of the paywall, but in general I am not impressed by the amount of effort you've put in here. It seems like you just searched Linehan's name and counted it as "no support for activism" if activism was not mentioned in literally the same sentence. Loki (talk) 19:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

If you think there is support for that characterization, providing the relevant quote would go a long way in clarifying that support. I'm not finding anything in the Independent which characterizes Lineahan as an activist. I do see him characterized as a "gender critical hardliner". You may be referring to the preceding paragraph which does not mention Linehan. Likewise with Rabble, Linehan is mentioned once in passing as one of the "anti-trans bloggers". There is nothing in the article that identifies him as an activist. However, the Rabble articles does say "a popular TERF bullying tactic is to subscribe trans people to these newsletters en masse without their consent." That's something an activist might do, but there is no indication that Linehan is doing that, or that he is described as an activist. We are dealing with a WP:BLP here. If a source isn't clear about these kind of controversial statements, it's not appropriate to use as a source. TheMissingMuse (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Independent:

The attack has echoes of the extremist QAnon movement and its predecessor, Pizzagate, whose followers believe that celebrities and senior Democrats are united in a fantastical conspiracy to abduct children. It also mirrors rhetoric that has taken root among extreme anti-trans activists in the UK. On Ovarit, an invite-only Reddit clone devoted to “gender critical” discussion, posts tagged “Trans Groomers” stretch back at least a year. Father Ted creator Graham Linehan, a gender critical hardliner who was kicked off Twitter in 2020 for “hateful conduct”, described positive media depictions of trans life as “grooming” as early as December 2020, and has baselessly cast similar aspersions against individual trans people.

It's clearly mentioning a phenomenon and then giving specific examples.

Rabble: The title of the article is The alt-internet of anti-trans activists. (And this characterization is backed up in the subtitle and the first line of the article.) Everyone mentioned in the article, including Linehan, is being called an anti-trans activist. Loki (talk) 22:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

You left out the paragraph break that separates the two paragraphs and their topics. The Independent 2022/04/14 article does not describe Linehan's posting on Ovarit or Twitter as activism. As discussed above, the Rabble article is discussing how anti-trans activists are subscribing people to Linehan's Substack. It's not calling him an activist. Binding the headline to anyone mentioned in the article is WP:SYNTH.

We should not be using these low quality sources that do not directly support the claim. There are higher quality sources that can be used instead, notably: The Guardian, Pink News, The Times and The Independent 2023/08/17 article about Linehan . TheMissingMuse (talk) 23:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

You keep insisting they do not directly support the claim but, as Loki demonstrates, many of them do. You're going to need a better argument, or to drop the stick and move on. If you feel there are better cites that support the label... just add them. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Loki is developing his own synthesis of the sources, inferring that content in one paragraph applies to another, and that the title applies uniformly to all subjects in the article. This is a clear violation of WP:BLP. It baffles me that these low quality source that mention Linehan only in passing are being used to support content like this when much better sources are available that support the identical content. I suppose the next steps are to bring this to a noticeboard or an RfC. TheMissingMuse (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

That is not synthesis. If it were, we'd have to scrap 90% of the articles on this site.

If you want to claim this is a BLP violation, take it to a report board. I don't think you'll get very far. As I said, if you have better sources, add them. Nothing is preventing you from doing that. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Memoir

The Chapter "Memoir" now exists twice in the article. I recommend deleting the second version, since the first is more detailed regarding to reviews. 95.91.8.30 (talk) 18:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Done Well spotted! Bastun 19:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Tough Crowd

Some thoughts on the memoir—it looks notable under WP:NBOOK#1 if someone wanted to create a standalone article. However, I imagine a Synopsis would prove difficult as it appears the book uses incorrect names for many individuals and makes claims that we can't repeat on Misplaced Pages for BLP reasons, at least unless we have sufficient secondary sources to say "Linehan falsely claims that ...". Pseudoscientific book summaries might be the place to look to see how secondary sources can be used to contextualise fringe material while also conveying the book's contents.

In this article, I presume we'd take Tough Crowd as reliable for statements about Linehan's early life and career that are not connected to transgender topics, which might be useful given the brevity of "Early life" and coverage of Father Ted and The IT Crowd. However, given that reviewers say things like "its author clearly hasn’t worked through his issues" (Irish Times) it's best to err on the side of attributing statements to the book or avoiding them if they seem the slightest bit dubious. — Bilorv (talk) 14:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

That article has now been created: Tough Crowd: How I Made and Lost a Career in Comedy. The (relatively) newly-created account (42 edits) referred to Linehan in the lede as 'gender critical', with one reference, so I've updated to reflect the references used on this article. Bastun 11:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Career

Linehan's has written several of the most famous shows on British TV. Why is the article's 'Career' section only one fifth of the length of the Anti-Trans Activism section? I doubt most people even know that he's an activist Mr Miles (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

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