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Major cities: Katowice and Lublin

@Merangs I advise to put Katowice and Lublin as major cities in the lede. Katowice is the center (by population, culturally, historically, logistically) of the 3-5 million large Upper Silesian metropolitan area, as such it is a very major city. Lublin is in the top 10 largest cities, it's the 9th largest city and is a major Polish city that is located within Eastern Poland. It also has a metropolitan area and is important logistically and economically, being the center of the Central Industrial Area since the 1930s i.e. since the Second Polish Republic. It's also a historically important city. Galehautt (talk) 15:50, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I understand your point, however, it should be the Upper Silesian metropolitan area or the Metropolis GZM of which the city of Katowice is a constituent (see Germany article for example i.e how the Ruhr urban area is mentioned instead of individual townships). As for Lublin, there are also other important large cities in Eastern Poland such as Rzeszów and Białystok. If we continue adding places it will become less and less relevant; we already have seven listed in the very first paragraph (Misplaced Pages:Relevance). There is a considerable jump in population and economic output between Lublin and for example Gdańsk, whereas, Szczecin is a major port. Merangs (talk) 22:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Rzeszów gained significance since the War in Ukraine but otherwise it is not a significant city and it doesn't even have 200k inhabitants. Białystok has fewer inhabitants than Lublin, it's in the top 10 (it's tenth) but has "only" 295k inhabitants within the city limits and also doesn't really have any significance besides regional/cultural. Lublin has over 300k inhabitants and has the perks I mentioned, it was the city where the Union of Lublin (the founding act of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was signed and it was the first capital of the communist occupation authorities where the PKWN Manifesto was proclaimed. There's also the Central Industrial Area I mentioned, which started in the 1930s and continues til this day: aeronautic industry, mines and agriculture.

Katowice is the clear core of the Upper Silesian metropolitan area in all respects including cultural (Silesian culture) outweighing other cities in the area unlike in the Ruhr which is larger and more decentralized, where there's no major representative because there are several. Galehautt (talk) 03:35, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the reason for Lublin's post-war significance is due to the fact that Bolesław Bierut was born there. Moreover, the Union of Lublin is a poor reason for placing a city in the lead; there were plenty of other equally-important unions/acts/agreements in the course of Polish history. Regarding Katowice, I absolutely understand its economic importance but it still is the 11th largest city in the country as the article suggests; it just wouldn't make sense and it's does not align well with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Maybe other users can have a say in this matter? Personally, I do not mind your proposal for adding these two but we just don't want others to insert more and more cities in the future. Ideally, I would not include any city below the 400,000 pop. mark, for example Szczecin, but that's my POV. Merangs (talk) 21:35, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I get your concerns and I totally agree, at one point I thought why not just write down all the cities in the top 10, but then again Bydgoszcz and Bialystok are in the top 10 but aren't major cities at all, while Katowice is technically 11th (going by city limits). However, the Silesian metropolitan area is bigger than even the Warsaw metro. So I think Katowice should have a place in the article, as does Lublin, and no other additional city. Szczecin technically has many inhabitants but it's not really a major city at all and many Poles forget it even exists, just to get my point across, meanwhile Katowice and Lublin are well-known and quite essential. Since there is no solid opposition, I will apply the changes. Thanks for your time. Galehautt (talk) 01:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

There is strong opposition as you can see. Katowice is a small town. The GOP has not been the largest in Poland for a long time. Many people left Upper Silesia. The most populous metropolis in Poland is currently the metropolis of Warsaw. We either decide on a specific number (a small number, e.g. 5 cities) or we set a limit number of inhabitants (e.g. 500 or 400 thousand inhabitants). The remaining cities are listed in another section. Urabura (talk) 14:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Location of Poland

I provided the more precise geographical location of Poland, which was reverted twice by user NeonFor.

The user claims that Poland has no strong ties with Eastern Europe. I hope there are users that agree with me in that this is a false claim. Poland is classified as Eastern European by a number of official sources, included the United Nations. Poland has been traditionally classified as Eastern European, and colloquially continues to be referred to as such.

Poland’s cultural and historical ties with Eastern Europe are extensive. As of the 21st century, the countries in Central Europe that have significant cultural ties with one another, are the East-Central European countries, and then, independently, the western Central European countries. There certainly is a cultural and historical relationship between these two parts of Central Europe, but the divide is still notable. East-Central European countries also have strong cultural connections with their bordering Eastern European countries, whereas western Central European countries do not. Central Europe is made up of historically Eastern and Western European countries, that continue to be widely regarded as such. I believe the lead is worthy of some form of clarification to account for this.

Talk archives have a history of similar appeals to recognise this connection, and replies agree that that there is a point to be made, but advise that an RFC should be started.

Retois (talk) 09:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

First of all Poland is geograpically located exactly in Central Europe. No west-central, no east-central but central. A lot of middle points of Europe (there are different views about the topic) as a continet are located in Poland, some of them are even located east of Poland which puts the country even more western than eastern geograpically. :Oh, and please remember that Poland's border has been shift westward tens of years ago thus historical and present geographical location (it been also followed by cultural, deomgraphic and econominal changes) of Poland are two different things.

Poland is a part of western civilization thus it has extensive ties with Central (which is intergal part of) and Western Europe. There is a very remarkable border between Central Europe and Eastern Europe in 21 century. There are plenty examples in this matter and they embracing every aspect of particular country's existance (cultural, demographic, economical..): 1. Poland is a part of Western world (same as whole Western and Central Europe), eastern european countries are part of Ortxodox (eastern) World, according to Clash of Civilizations. 2. Poland uses latin script (same as whole Central and Western Europe), eastern european countries uses cyrlic script 3. Poland is a part of all major western organisations (incl. EU), eastern european countries are not. 4. Poland represents Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) countries, eastern european countries belongs to Eastern Orthodox Church. 5. Economically there is a huge difference between central european and eastern european countries under almost every aspect of this term (incl. quality of life, infrastruxture etc.). And so on, and so on, so on.. There are more of them.

I'am not saying that there are no ties between Poland and Eastern europe, but there are even more cultural and organizational connections between Poland and the west. You can not push Poland more into one of these sides because there are too many strong arguments not to do so. Thus Poland is a Central European country. Same as Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia. Since last over 30 years, the difference between Central Europe and Eastern Europe has became very remaraklable and there is significant border (a deep rift I would say) on the eastern border of Central Europen countries like Poland, Slovakia and Hungary. Central Europe can be described as a kind of "mixed region", a mixture of Western and Eastern Europe but definitelly we are not allowed to push countries into one side or another or artifically divide this region, because the diversity (which means a country is not western nor eastern either) and mixed nature of this region is perefctly describe as being "central". Thus we have Central Europe. As you can see above, there are even serious arguments to put Poland into west-central Europe but we shouldn't do that because such a diversity is self-included into idea of being central european country. And of cource, you can go deeper and deeper into this topic and put some further observations but such a detailed view can be placed in individual chapters covering geography of particualar country, definitelly it does not belong to the lead section. NeonFor (talk) 11:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Poland is in central Europe

Poland is in central Europe, same as Hungary and Czech Republic. Look at the map of Europe. Greece is located in south-east of Europe. It is a mistake we hear in the west only. It is probably due to lack of the proper education. Ukraine and Belarus are in eastern Europe. 49.190.245.106 (talk) 01:59, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Poland work permit 223.123.84.110 (talk) 08:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Can somebody add borders in the first paragraph?

Can somebody else add borders in the first paragraph of Poland? Poland borders seven countries. 36.82.99.180 (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

This has already been mentioned in the appropriate geography and topography-related section of the lead. Merangs (talk) 21:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Donald Tusk new president

Hi Donald Tusk won the polish parliamentary election and is credited by almost every source with doing so I'm going to edit it so he is now president,

my problem is i can't add References properly so i'm asking if anyone can add these sources to presidency bit at the top the links are https://ft.com/content/50198396-4ea0-41cd-b7db-67bb0df700b2 it's a credieted source as it';s the finacal times. Infomanfromearth (talk) 14:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Tusk isn't a president (it wasn't a presidental elections), he most likely will be a prime minister, but it will take a couple weeks before he assumes such position. So far nothing have changed. Marcelus (talk) 14:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah ok got a little bit confused. thanks. Infomanfromearth (talk) 14:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

No, he's not president. Andrzej Duda is President of Poland. Duda will (most likely) appoint Tusk Prime Minister of Poland. But not yet. --jpgordon 14:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Area of Poland

The recent edit is misleading because sources don't usually say that Poland is 313,931 sq km. Both BBC News and Poland's official website say that Poland is 312,696 sq km. I know that there might be sources saying that Poland is 313,931 sq km, but which source is more reliable? Just a random geography fan (talk) 02:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The updated 2023 GUS source. Malecide (talk) 11:13, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of secularization from the article

Hi, @E-960:. There's no reason to remove updated demographic information for Catholics in the article.

I'm perplexed how it could be interpreted as a "left-right" issue. The drop in weekly mass attenders is especially notable and there's been widespread coverage in reliable sources about the matter.

• Source #1
• Source #2
• Source #3
• Source #4

Portraying Poland as overwhelmingly Catholic is no longer factual. Why was this information + updated information surrounding demographics removed from the article? KlayCax (talk) 18:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

KlayCax, the text already says "However, church attendance has decreased in recent years", which makes the point that religion is not as important as before. Also, there is such as thing as Misplaced Pages guidelines on length of section and article, this article was already trimmed some time ago because over the years editors were adding way too much text about their pet topic and the article got way too long. Finally, people that look up country articles on Misplaced Pages want a quick glance at basic country facts not left/right options and politics. --E-960 (talk) 19:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't have particularly strong feelings about whether it should be included or not. However, it has widely been cited as a cause for the country's secularization. (Per the above four articles.)

• The newer version of the edit, in which I removed the individual policies they have pursued but left The Polish Catholic Church has had significant political influence since 1989, seems indisputably true.
• The numbers are no longer 38% weekly attendance per the Catholic Church. They're 28%.
• The fact that Poland is the fastest secularizing society on record is especially notable. Ireland's, Quebec's, Canada's, and many other country's articles note that they have secularized. It appears to me to be in line with other articles.

Is there anything in the new wording that you object to? I don't think the length (at least in the new wording) is especially problematic. KlayCax (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

KlayCax, I really don't feel like getting into a lengthy and exhausting debate about secularization in Poland based on a few magazine articles, because it is a complex issue. Sure, less people go to church, and many are more liberal in their views, but that does not mean they are atheist or stopped being Catholic. Great example of this is... I keep reading news articles about abortion and how PiS tightened the rules, however what most of these articles don't say is that though the overwhelming majority of Poles were against further restrictions, HOWEVER they were not in favor of loosening the already strict rules, they were for the status que that was agreed upon after 1989. Even now with the new government coalition that's being formed, PO and PSL do not want to include abortion in their coalition talks with the Left. So, this is not the article to analyze and present all those details in, just some basic and easy to digest facts about a country. --E-960 (talk) 19:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, @E-960:.

Without getting into the weeds, that's no longer mentioned in the newer version I submitted. Is there any particular reason that you're objecting to the updated weekly mass attendance stats (38% -> 28%) being added? Or secularization? If this is mostly a dispute on whether recent political matters should be excluded for now, then I wouldn't object, but saying the Polish Catholic Church has significant political influence is uncontroversial and definitely notable enough to include.

Why do you object to: 1.) The updated weekly attendance figures 2.) Mentioning secularization 3.) Mentioning that the Catholic Church has political influence? KlayCax (talk) 19:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Let me explain... you raised this point: "The Polish Catholic Church has had significant political influence since 1989". This has to be some simplistic caricature statement repeated in other countries about Poland. If you look at past elections in Poland since 1989 you would not have figured this, because Poland was not governed by some staunchly pro-Catholic Church parties, in fact back in the day a couple of such parties existed and they polled very badly. So, with the exception of a issue or two, I'm not sure what "political influence" this relates to. --E-960 (talk) 19:59, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps as a compromise for now, this content can be added to the religion in Poland? I don't think it is controversial to say that RCC had significant influence on Polish politics and certainly culture (, ). Arguably, even during the communist times, although back then it was strongly opposed by the government (). And it had significant influence on the politics of the interwar Poland too (, ). And during the partitions... (). This is a complex issue but to argue that any point up to including today the Church had no significant impact on Polish state and politics seems folly. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal states the following: Poland is known as Europe’s last Catholic bastion, the only major country on the continent where the church still heavily influences political, social and cultural life. I'm uncertain what's the specific objection to the wording. Both mainline and evangelical Protestant Christianity has had an immense influence on the United States without an actual political party for either de jure existing.

I'm okay with leaving it out for now, but it definitely appears to me to be notable enough to mention, and the objection to the updated demographic information is something I'm still not getting. KlayCax (talk) 15:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

If you want to update the attendance figures in a short statement that's fine, but as for the other topics the sources there really state an opinion or a point of view. This is not a subject matter that can be captured using one or two magazine or newspaper articles, and this requires several sources and views in order to present a full unbiased perspective. Just as with the term "secularization" in Poland, this really makes me laugh, because it sounds like Poland was like France under Cardinal Richelieu or something. After regaining independence Poland was a republic, not a theocracy, and just because most Poles are Catholic this does not mean the Church has concrete political influence. Now, many people do follow church teaching on social matters, but you can't confuse this with a lack of separation of church and state, every person has the right to follow religions teachings or secular ideologies, however in modern Poland there was never a time when the church was part of the government. So, Poland has been secular since 1918. --E-960 (talk) 16:19, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I partially reinstated the non-controversial aspects. Of course Poland isn't a theocracy... but Catholicism has indisputably had an immense cultural, social, and political influence on Poland. I don't believe that this is disputable. A legal establishment of religion is not required for this. In fact, many countries have established religions that have almost no cultural or political influence .

• Denmark, the United Kingdom, Norway, et al. have established churches with little influence/cultural impact.
• The United States, Poland, et al. are secular (strongly in the case of the United States per the First Amendment) Western states with significant religious influence/cultural impact.

Does that make sense? KlayCax (talk) 06:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, can we please have a consensus template pasted here so individual Wikipedians can vote? Unless the discussion is not yet complete. Following the consensus, the changes can be re-entered. Merangs (talk) 16:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Merangs:. @E-960: was fine with updating the church attendance and (to a lesser extent) shifts in religious beliefs. His objection (if I'm understanding it right) was to the "Catholic Church has influence" part. RFC's are measures of last resort and I don't think that this is a situation that would necessitate it. KlayCax (talk) 02:11, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Cities list

Malecide, you need to stop edit warring as there is no consensus for these changes. Also, in the past this issue was discussed and we are listing cities here, so stop mixing the two categories because they are not the same. The city of Gdańsk and the Gdańsk metro area are two different things, don't mix them together. Also, there is a Demographics section where you are more then welcome to add more details there about the various metro areas, however the Introduction section is not a place to add endless amounts of side information. Finally, I see no hard rationale for including Lubin. E-960 (talk) 08:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

It's a list of major cities that goes by how major they are, I would assume. All listed cities are the most major ones. I see the issue as having been settled in last July in the "Major cities: Katowice and Lublin" discussion. The arguments there have convinced me too. Excluding Lublin would make it seem like there were no major cities in Eastern Poland. Of all the cities in Eastern Poland, Lublin is arguably the most major and it's in the top 10 largest cities in Poland. If you want to focus strictly on population, you should try to force through a change of the lede, from "other major cities" to "most populous cities." Malecide (talk) 10:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Malecide, pls see Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. You introduced these changes, including mixing up the order of the cities and adding Lublin. You were reverted because it makes no scence to include Lublin, which is 9th in population size, but skip over the 8th largest city. You need to stop mixing the categories of "cities" with "metropolitan areas", they are not the same, and the text clearly says we are listing cities in the Introduction section. Also, I mentioned in the comments that this was already discussed ad nauseam in the past. --E-960 (talk) 11:14, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

• Malecide, I'll ask that you self revert or you will be reporter for 3rr. Again, if you add new changes and they are reverted, you need to understand that there is no consensus and discuss, the Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle is clear on this. "Kraków, Wrocław, Łódź, Poznań, Gdańsk, and Szczecin" has been the order for months now, until mid-July when back and forth edits started to be made, such as adding Lublin and changing the order. --E-960 (talk) 11:19, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

WHat? I did not introduce these changes. I checked the edit history - the lede stayed in this form from July until October when, for a few days, it was changed. I reverted that change, and it continued to be in the July form until November. A new user Urabura started an edit war a few days ago without picking up a discussion in Talk. You're now defending him. That's how things stand. Malecide (talk) 12:07, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Malecide, I see that there was a discussion back in July and no consensus. Also, this is what you get when you disrupt a longstanding order (that lasted for months if not years), which was based on one simple category largest CITIES up to 400,000 (no mixing in of metro areas or adding random cites like Katowice or Lublin). Now, every few weeks or every other month someone will come up with their own criteria, that we should also include this or that. So, yes, I'm asking you to self revert and restore "Kraków, Wrocław, Łódź, Poznań, Gdańsk, and Szczecin". You can compare diffs and see just how longstanding this order was. --E-960 (talk) 12:51, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

This order goes back to 2018, see here: ], with one change where Wrocław moved past Łodź. --E-960 (talk) 12:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Motto of Poland: God, Honor, Fatherland (Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna)

This is the most common motto of the Polish people and is the official motto of the Polish Military and therefore can be considered the motto of Poland, even though it is not explicitly inscribed in the Constitution. It should be included in the infobox for Poland like "In God We Trust" is included in the infobox for the United States (not to mention the other "traditional mottos" included in the US infobox). 2A00:F41:1C15:1CE7:11B2:420F:5040:4835 (talk) 13:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Food of Poland

The most famous food in Poland are pierogis, and they are widely known to be one of the best foods to exist. 131.239.200.165 (talk) 05:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Formation list

HetmanWL, you need to stop edit warring or you will be reported, so get familiar with Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle guidelines. Also, more importantly Misplaced Pages is based on quality reference sources not your own POV. It is a universally accepted fact that Poland became a recognized country when it's rulers were Baptized and what was then a tribal state became a duchy within the Christendom, even the communist authorities in 1966 celebrated the official formation of Poland in that year. This kind of obnoxious personal POV push degrades Misplaced Pages and is not based on any reliable sources, just your own revisionist interpretation of history. E-960 (talk) 09:57, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica states "Mieszko accepted Roman Catholicism via Bohemia in 966. A missionary bishopric directly dependent on the papacy was established in Poznań. This was the true beginning of Polish history, for Christianity was a carrier of Western civilization with which Poland was henceforth associated." Also, if that's not enough for you, pls see Millennium of the Polish State article and check out the references cited there as well. --E-960 (talk) 10:02, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The Polish state obviously existed before Mieszko accepted Christianity. Every single historian agrees on that, 966 is just the symbolic start date because with Christianity came a more advanced and complex administration. It was a process. In the pic you yourself added, it says: Poland 960-992.

• Furthermore, it is important to note that before Poland became a Kingdom, it was a Duchy. It didn't spring up out of nowhere.

HetmanWL (talk) 18:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

HetmanWL you did not provide a source that actually says that Poland became a formally recognized state before 966 AD. What you added is your own WP:OR and you are engaging is disruptive behavior by adding dubious claims to longstanding material and accusing others of disruptive behavior when they reverted your unsourced and dubious claims. --E-960 (talk) 21:33, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

• Piotrus as you are well versed on topics related to Poland and its history, can you comment on this edit and if there is any validity to it? --E-960 (talk) 21:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

  I assume this about the infobox and whether it should link to Duchy of Poland (c.960) before baptism of Poland (966) in the formation/establishment? Frankly, I don't have very strong opinion here. Maybe someone else does: @Orczar @Merangs _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I think that in any case, there would need to be several reliable sources presented, which clearly say that Poland was a recognized state before 966 AD. Please remember that the Infobox presents hard dates, which are the majority view accepted by historians, not alternative interpretations debated by editors. --E-960 (talk) 08:47, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment: User HetmanWL has been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet of user Urabura. --E-960 (talk) 08:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a sockpuppet of Urabura. I'm suspected to be a sockpuppet of Urabura and have been banned on this ground but it's an absurd accusation coming out of nowhere and I've already objected to it and the request to be unbanned is pending and based on this fact, as HetmanWL, I am informing you, to clear this false accusation. 2A00:F41:4C9F:BB52:3577:15DF:312E:6096 (talk) 23:26, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

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