Talk:Corset: Difference between revisions

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			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=B\|vital=yes\|1=
	"Corsets go back as far as 2000 B.C., when Cretan women wore them to emphasize their breasts and hips."
			{{WikiProject Fashion\|importance=top}}
			{{WikiProject Sexology and sexuality\|importance=mid}}
			{{WikiProject Women's History\|importance=Mid}}
			}}
			{{archive box\|
			#]
			}}

			==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
	What are not correct, Cretan women and man do only have abdominal belt. And perhaps the abdominal belt unly are a style, because naturalisme is a modern style.
			] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ], ], ]. Peer reviewers: ], ].

			{{small\|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 18:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}}
	== sources ==
			== Men beginning to wear corsets? ==

			How common was the use of corsets by men during the Empire style period (1790 – 1830)? I can’t remember any contemporary depictions showing men with any exaggeratedly narrow waist. If you compensate for the typical three to five layers of clothes their waists become comparable to those of indigenous peoples living in areas so hot that humans don’t need any clothes. Consequentially, these peoples ether practice natural nudity or wear only a ] or a clothing item comparable to present Western underpants. Since they wear very little – if anything at all – their waists probably represent the natural state of the male body. It was not until after 1830 that Western men begun to be portrayed with an exaggeratedly narrow waist. Then I can imagine them wearing corsets but before that it would have been superfluous. Anyone who can verify?
	what's the source that supports "There have been documented examples of women shrinking their waists as small as 16" through corset training."?

			2009-08-23 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:03, 23 August 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	http://spook.dk/
	http://www.staylace.com/gallery/gallery05/polaire/polaire4.jpg polaire do have 13"

			:I know many books which tell about the use of corsets by men during the Empire style period (1790 – 1830), but the only primary source is a printed joke by a lace scene. I have two photos of men by exaggeratedly narrow waist. Haabet 20:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
	-----
			http://www.flickr.com/photos/haabet/3335966311/in/set-72157608328223268/
			http://www.flickr.com/photos/haabet/3336797276/in/set-72157608328223268/

			I consider these to be exceptions from the norm of indigenous peoples in hot climates having natural waists.
	and what's the source for "Corsets go back as far as 2000 B.C., when Cretan women wore them to emphasize their breasts and hips."

			2010-02-17 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	]

			I think even if they are exceptions to the norm, they are still important to include in the article. This way people can know about, consider, and discuss it. ] (]) 11:06, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
	Any serious, it is only a big loincloth.

			== Are the Nude pictures really nessesary? ==
	-----

			Do we have to have those? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:04, 17 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	What are the sources for cartilage softening from corset wearing? I do know that the muscles getting weak will be a problem, if the corset is worn almost always and the wearer do sports to compensate for the inactivity of e.g. stomach muscles.

			:] --] <sup>(])</sup> 18:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
	----
	Me is the sources of "cartilage softening from corset wearing"
	The stomach muscles do quickly grow is the woman take off the corset, and been too strong to the softed chest.

			LOL pwned. ] (]) 02:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
	If the corset is correctly, the softed chest work as to compensate for the inactivity of e.g. stomach muscles. The alternative of the nature is death of the pregnant womman. About 10 or 20 % of all women do have a softed chest, to some extent. specially sports women.

			The Nude pictures are important to show of the effect of corsets.Haabet 16:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
	It is correct as the softed chest is not generally accepted, because the model of human being by the doctors is a man, and the model of woman by the doctors is a man by womb.

			== image display ==
	The doctor do only see the a hysterical women, because no is broke, but the women, feel as she been strangled by a ring round the chest, and do been hysterical.

			Would it make sense to move the column of images on the right, which randomly illustrate corsets, into a gallery section? As they are now they muck up the "edit" buttons for about 5 sections. ] (]) 02:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
	----
			:Most of the "History" section have need to move to the Corset History article.Haabet 07:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

			is the image of the 'corset made by corseteirre in 2005' etc etc really needed? it seems like someone is using wikipedia as a free edvertising place...] (]) 12:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
	== Meaning of sentence ==

			== Corset vendors ==
	:"The corset was originally stiff, later of stretched silk."

			I've removed the sections containing links to corset vendors, per ]. I do not believe that links to vendor web sites are appropriate. <span style="text-shadow: 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em #DDDDDD">--] (])</span> 22:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
	Can anyone explain what this sentence is supposed to mean? Otherwise I think it should be deleted as nonsense. ] 01:02, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
			:Seconded. ] (]) 23:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	A possible origin of corset is a shining armour by cover of silk.

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:Sorry, that doesn't make much sense to me either. Do you mean that corsets may have evolved from plate-armour as worn by knights, covered with silk? ] 19:55, May 2, 2004 (UTC)

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	----
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051129004136/http://www.fathom.com/course/21701726/index.html to http://www.fathom.com/course/21701726/index.html

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	==Animated GIF==

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	]Image:Respiration.gif in the thumbnail version doesn't seem to work properly in Mozilla Firefox 0.8 (the full sized version is fine). I'm currently investigating whether this is a Firefox bug or something weird in the thumbnailing code or what. (This is Firefox 0.8 for Linux running in emulation on FreeBSD, though Gecko should be the same across all Mozilla on all platforms.)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 10:52, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
	The problem is that the thumbnailed version does not redraw properly, leaving all the black lines behind.

			==Bum link==
	Same problem shows up in Opera (6.0, Linux running on FreeBSD).
			In the Notes section the fourth bullet- "History of Tightlacing". Retrieved August 11, 2015- doesn't link to anything, or it is expired. Without reference to more scholarly work, or anything to back up the claim, no one can trace the work. I don't know what the original site was so I cannot go out to find it but updating sources so that people can follow the thought process.] (]) 16:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

			:I have tagged the deadlink at both occurrences. ] (]) 00:18, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
	In Konqueror 3.0.0 (FreeBSD), it not only does this, it has a weird glitch at the end of the animation cycle ... - ] 18:51, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

			== New Idea! ==
	And now I'm testing in Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows 98 and it does the same there too! (Did whoever put this in actually preview it?) Does anyone feel up to doing a version at thumbnail size to put into the page? - ] 19:09, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

			My ideas would be to inform readers how the corset evolved over time. I can add some sort of timeline that allows readers to visually see the evolution of the corset and how they are viewed.] (]) 00:01, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
	:I've had a look at the original image in a few different programs and it's strange: it stores only minimal changes between each pair of images, but the differences don't seem to coincide correctly within gif editing programs. Browsers handle them fine, but gifsicle and gimp, and presumably also whatever rescales images on Misplaced Pages, are fazed by them somehow, so that it's extremely difficult even to split the images up to create a new animation from them. I think it would be best to ask the person who made the original image to re-make it. ] 22:24, May 1, 2004 (UTC)

			==Peer Review Suggestions and Questions==
	::I've left a note on ]. - ] 23:34, May 1, 2004 (UTC)
			This overall article is very objective and encyclopedic in its language. Can more be added to the medical section? This may be a work in progress still, but it seemed quite short. Perhaps the fact the men claimed their corsets helped alleviate back pain could be mentioned in that section. With the Fetish section, "tightlacing" was never explicitly mentioned but it seemed appropriate to either move the explanation of it there or at least mention it to tie the article together. The distinctions between the types of corsets is very interesting and well detailed.] (]) 01:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

			== Western view hatnote ==
	]~

			The hatnote states that the article "deal primarily with Western Europe and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject." Weren't corsets almost exclusively worn by women in Western society? I'm unable to find any sources for the time period when corsets were culturally popular that indicate women from Asia, Africa, or other non-European cultures wore corsets. The article ] states, "Corsets were worn by European women from the late 16th century onward." I think the hatnote is inaccurate and should be removed. — ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 21:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
	The image Respiration.gif is the original image. Editing program: Animation Shop.

			== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
	] 19:42, 2 May 2004 (UTC)
			The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
			* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy \| 2019-07-30T06:21:36.561736 \| Shortline custom-made overbust corset.png -->
			You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —] (]) 06:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

			== Addition of historical content to article ==
	== Advocacy, and pictures ==

			Hello! In hopes of aiding this article's content, particularly with reference to it's status as vital, I have added referenced content relating to early bodies, stays, and corsets. Image added to illustrate (stays), and links to related Misplaced Pages articles also made.
	I've had a go at copyediting the current page, though I haven't touched the table or most of the picture captions, because I don't understand them.

			Hope to make it back here soon to add more concerning nineteenth century use of the corset. Many thanks to @] for suggesting work here! ] (]) 21:45, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
	However, the current page reads a bit like an advocacy argument for corsets. It would be better if the language was toned down somewhat. I'm not sure how, partly because I don't know enough about the arguments for or against wearing corsets, and partly because, again, I'm not sure enough of what the original poster meant in some places.

			:@] I'm glad you took my suggestion to heart. Your support for these articles is appreciated. ] (]) 22:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
	Also, do we need this many pictures? What with this and the advocacy, the page reads like a sales catalogue. Perhaps we could move some of them to a new page. ] 20:26, May 2, 2004 (UTC)

	:The great number of pictures are important because the corsets change by time.
	If you give they all a new page, any can se the change. the corsets are also difference by use.
	:perhaps a pages "The history of corset 1500-1970 or 1983" and a page: "Corset before 1500"
	:"original poster meant in some places."
	:please tell the problems
	:] 21:50, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

	:I see no intrinsic problem with the pictures. Although it's not usual to have that many images in an article. I thought of shifting them too, but see no pressing need for the moment - ] 09:23, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

	:I've put the images on a page called Corset illustrations, and will be putting Haabet's new animated GIF in there. (What's policy on animated GIFs? I know we don't include static ones, but the PNG equivalent - MNG - is almost totally unsupported even by modern browsers) - ] 11:48, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

	I have just added an image for the cover of the book "Fetish Fashion: Undressing the Corset" to the Modern history section of the article....
	] 00:20, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

	=='Corset comfort' section==

	I've been pondering ]'s latest additions - the 'Intestine problem' table. It seems a little out of place in the article: this section is very specific, while the article is more general. Also, it's a little isolates: if intestine problems are going to be included, shouldn't there be coverage of breathing problems and the like? Perhaps its worthwhile considering an article on 'Medical consequences of corseting'?

	Also, this kind of information is skirting the edges of medical advice, which makes me mildly uneasy. For that kind of think, I think it might be better to link to an external site like , which has advice from doctors.

	I also suspect that that this is ] on Haabet's part.

	Apart from that, I didn't actually find this section very clear. I'll have a quick try at cleaning it up, but I'm not sure how clear and informative the little animations actually are.

	Thoughts and suggestions?

	- ] 13:05, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

	----

	I agree with you that Haabet's semi-coherent table detracts from the article rather than adds to it, and that it's not clear that it's based on actual medical information. I think an edited, text-only version of this viewpoint should be added to the advantages/disadvantages section, and the link you suggested should be added.

	I'll perform the surgery :) Glad there's someone else working on this article. ] 19:32, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

	----

	staylace sell corsets, and a salesman of corsets never tell about a seriously problem by corsets.
	] 20:14, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

	http://haabet.dk/korset/English.html

	----

	Haabet, I read the medical advice at Staylace and it seemed fairly neutral about the dangers of badly fitting corsets, sudden rather than gradual constriction, pinched nerves, problems with breathing and digestion, etc. I modified the Advantage/disadvantage section to positively state that bad digestion can be one consequence of aggressive corseting.

	And to think that I've never worn a corset! I'm here only because of my SCA and Regency dancing friends, who bristle at corset slurs. ] 01:40, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

	----

	Yes, it is good to have more people working on this article - especially somebody who is not so avidly pro-corset as Haabet (no insult intended to him, of course).

	For what it's worth, I've always found Staylace's factual information to be balanced, reasonable and sensible, and it accords with other sources.

	- ] 08:48, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

	== Good edits, Katherine ==

	Thanks for the stylistic tweaking. I have a tendency to be gnomic and you expanded some things nicely. I see a few typos, but I'll work on them later.

	I think this is shaping up to be a good, informative article. ] 12:38, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)




	------
	Can anybody tell about the negative by corset?

	<TABLE WIDTH="100%" BORDER="1" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD>
	===Intestine problem===
	The ]'s work is aided by the movement of the organs effected by abdominal breathing. However, in a tightly laced corset, breathing movement shifts to the ] area.

	A common solution of Intestine problem is a diet by many small meals, as the Intestines are even filled, so the food have fine contact by the inner side of the in the Intestine.
	But a better solution of Intestine problem is some stiffness in the front as, some of the
	breathing movement from upper thoracic area push to the intestines in the abdomen. This push been opposite as a abdominal breathing, but this detail is without importance. The push to the
	intestines move to the food as it have fine contact by the inner side of the in the Intestine.
	It of this cause the stays have the stay in the front.

	A well-designed corset will allow some movement by breaking up the stiff front with flexible zones. Three alike corsets, wrong, wrong and correct.
	<TABLE WIDTH="50%" BORDER="1" ALIGN="left" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TD>
	]
	This corset is wrong. The front is too soft as the intestines do not work correct.
	</TD></TR></TABLE>
	<TABLE WIDTH="49%" BORDER="1" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD>
	]
	This corset is wrong. The intestines do work correct, but the front of the corset is too stiff as it chafe the skin.
	</TD></TR></TABLE>
	<TABLE WIDTH="100%" BORDER="1" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD>
	]
	This corset is correct, by stiff zones and soft zones as the intestines do work correct, without chafe the skin.
	</TD></TR></TABLE>
	</TD></TR></TABLE>

	All of this page have home in ]

	----

	==Spurious article move==

	:This article absolutely ''should not'' have been moved from ] to ]. The information is applicable to general corset wearing. There is a very big difference between wearing a corset on a regular basis and ]. What information the two topics share should be in the 'Corset' article, as tightlacing (for Misplaced Pages purposes, at least) is a subtopic.

	:The information on tighlacing should go in the article on that subject - and as there's already a page on ]s, which includes a section on the corsets used for tightlacing, there is no need for a separate page on 'tight lacing corsets'.

	:My actions are going to be:

	* Request that this talk page (which once belonged to the corset article) be moved back there.
	* Put this page up on votes for deletion (it's entirely unnecessary)
	* Restore the deleted information to the corset article

	:Haabet, I do not think that you are working contructively with ] and me. It's clear that you are keen to improve the 'Corset' article too, but you do not engage with us! As I've said before, please use the talk pages, and we can avoid getting into a situation where we just keep on undoing each other's edits.

	:- ] 09:44, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

	::Unless anyone other than Haabet objects, I'll be moving the page back in 24 hours - ] 12:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

	:::Many thanks! ] 13:47, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

	24 hours are short time when Misplaced Pages not answer. Most of the Corset pages are part of others corset pages.

	Exist any connection between the corsets of today and the corsets of olddays?

	----
	==Bustle and more==
	The corset was important as base to bustle.
	But where are the ] and ]?
	]s and ]
	], ] and
	]?
	]?
	----

	==Images==
	http://haabet.dk/patent/Sketchs.html

	http://haabet.dk/patent/People.html


	==Corset illness==
	All the olddays corsets are maked without knowledge about the female anatomy. Of this cause the corset make damage. Particularly was the lower edge of the front of corset a problem, because it end where the skirt start, and not near ], of this cause the body bulge under the corset. A special unhealthy was the ] because it had a narrow chest and a moderately round waist. By pregnancy and wery slim corset the entrails can hide in the extended chest. And a natural slim girl have a broad waist by flat front.
	By ] the liver and or stomach was in the front of the round waist, where they been squashed.
	The attitude to illness in olddays was another as today. Some illness was fashionable,
	because man-made illness display wealth and many servants.

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Nov 2003–Aug 2009

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MaxBaker1123, Chilogan, Madisonappel. Peer reviewers: Caithurwitz, Ansilvern.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Men beginning to wear corsets?

How common was the use of corsets by men during the Empire style period (1790 – 1830)? I can’t remember any contemporary depictions showing men with any exaggeratedly narrow waist. If you compensate for the typical three to five layers of clothes their waists become comparable to those of indigenous peoples living in areas so hot that humans don’t need any clothes. Consequentially, these peoples ether practice natural nudity or wear only a loincloth or a clothing item comparable to present Western underpants. Since they wear very little – if anything at all – their waists probably represent the natural state of the male body. It was not until after 1830 that Western men begun to be portrayed with an exaggeratedly narrow waist. Then I can imagine them wearing corsets but before that it would have been superfluous. Anyone who can verify?

2009-08-23 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.155.69 (talk) 12:03, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I know many books which tell about the use of corsets by men during the Empire style period (1790 – 1830), but the only primary source is a printed joke by a lace scene. I have two photos of men by exaggeratedly narrow waist. Haabet 20:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/haabet/3335966311/in/set-72157608328223268/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/haabet/3336797276/in/set-72157608328223268/

I consider these to be exceptions from the norm of indigenous peoples in hot climates having natural waists.

2010-02-17 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.71 (talk) 15:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I think even if they are exceptions to the norm, they are still important to include in the article. This way people can know about, consider, and discuss it. Paigee33 (talk) 11:06, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Are the Nude pictures really nessesary?

Do we have to have those? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.84.8.67 (talk) 17:04, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored. --Qsaw 18:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

LOL pwned. 24.251.33.38 (talk) 02:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The Nude pictures are important to show of the effect of corsets.Haabet 16:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

image display

Would it make sense to move the column of images on the right, which randomly illustrate corsets, into a gallery section? As they are now they muck up the "edit" buttons for about 5 sections. Huw Powell (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Most of the "History" section have need to move to the Corset History article.Haabet 07:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

is the image of the 'corset made by corseteirre in 2005' etc etc really needed? it seems like someone is using wikipedia as a free edvertising place...121.208.89.168 (talk) 12:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Corset vendors

I've removed the sections containing links to corset vendors, per WP:SPAM. I do not believe that links to vendor web sites are appropriate. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Seconded. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

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Bum link

In the Notes section the fourth bullet- "History of Tightlacing". Retrieved August 11, 2015- doesn't link to anything, or it is expired. Without reference to more scholarly work, or anything to back up the claim, no one can trace the work. I don't know what the original site was so I cannot go out to find it but updating sources so that people can follow the thought process.Kennedke (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I have tagged the deadlink at both occurrences. GrindtXX (talk) 00:18, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

New Idea!

My ideas would be to inform readers how the corset evolved over time. I can add some sort of timeline that allows readers to visually see the evolution of the corset and how they are viewed.Chilogan (talk) 00:01, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Peer Review Suggestions and Questions

This overall article is very objective and encyclopedic in its language. Can more be added to the medical section? This may be a work in progress still, but it seemed quite short. Perhaps the fact the men claimed their corsets helped alleviate back pain could be mentioned in that section. With the Fetish section, "tightlacing" was never explicitly mentioned but it seemed appropriate to either move the explanation of it there or at least mention it to tie the article together. The distinctions between the types of corsets is very interesting and well detailed.Ansilvern (talk) 01:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Western view hatnote

The hatnote states that the article "deal primarily with Western Europe and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject." Weren't corsets almost exclusively worn by women in Western society? I'm unable to find any sources for the time period when corsets were culturally popular that indicate women from Asia, Africa, or other non-European cultures wore corsets. The article Corset controversy states, "Corsets were worn by European women from the late 16th century onward." I think the hatnote is inaccurate and should be removed. — btphelps 21:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Shortline custom-made overbust corset.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Addition of historical content to article

Hello! In hopes of aiding this article's content, particularly with reference to it's status as vital, I have added referenced content relating to early bodies, stays, and corsets. Image added to illustrate (stays), and links to related Misplaced Pages articles also made.

Hope to make it back here soon to add more concerning nineteenth century use of the corset. Many thanks to @Urbanracer34 for suggesting work here! Diary of a Dress Historian (talk) 21:45, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

@Diary of a Dress Historian I'm glad you took my suggestion to heart. Your support for these articles is appreciated. Urbanracer34 (talk) 22:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

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