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	Intelligent design is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 2, 2005 Peer review Reviewed January 21, 2006 Good article nominee Listed October 16, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 9, 2007 Peer review Reviewed February 23, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current status: Featured article

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Archives

• (2002-2003)
• (2003)
• (Jan-Sep 2004, 53kb) - Are oppositions/criticisms of ID relevant?
• (Aug-Oct 2004, 46kb) - Is ID theory falsifiable?
• (Sep-Nov 2004, 42kb) - Overwhelming majority: POV? What does "scientific" mean?
• (Nov-Dec 2004)
• (Dec 2004-early Jan 2005)
• (Jan-April 2005)
• (April-May 2005)
• (Early - Mid June 2005) - Structured debate; the Pryamid analogy; Article Splits)
• Archives 11, 12, 13
• (Mid-August/Mid-Sept 2005) - ID as creationism; ID proponent's religious agenda; ID as scientific hypothesis
• (Mid-Sept/Early-Oct 2005) - Computer simulations & irreducible complexity, Criticisms of criticism, Footnote misnumbering, NPOV
• (Mid-Oct 2005)
• (Mid to late-Oct 2005) - Mainly involving users from uncommondescent.com and admins
• (Late Oct to early Nov 2005)
• (early to mid Nov 2005)
• (Mid Nov 2005) Tisthammer's and ant's objections
• (Nov 2005) Enormous bulk of text
• (30 Nov - 3 Dec 2005) various proposals, peer review
• (Early Dec 2005) - Mostly chatter concerning the current pool of editors
• (Mid Dec 2005) - Whether intelligent design is to be upper case or lower case
• (Late Dec 2005) Two major re-orgs and the Kitzmiller decision
• Marshills NPOV objections
• Reintroduction of Vast discussion
• Archives 27, 28, 29
• July 2006
• August 2006
• DI warning, DI and leading proponents again
• First archive of 2007
• Januari 22, 2007
• Jan – early Feb 2007
• Feb 9 - Mar 30, 2007

Points that have already been discussed

The following ideas were discussed. Please read the archives before bringing up any of these points again:

1. Is ID a theory?

   Fact and Theory

   Does ID really qualify as a Theory?

2. Is ID/evolution falsifiable?

   Falsification

   Falsifiability

   ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable, etc.

3. Is the article too littered with critique, as opposed to, for example, the evolution article?

   Criticism that the Intelligent design page does not give citations to support ID opponents' generalizations

   What ID's Opponents Say; is it really relevant?

   Bias?

   Various arguments to subvert criticism

   Critics claim ...

   Anti-ID bias

   Apparent partial violation NPOV policy

   Why are there criticizms

   Critics of ID vs. Proponents

4. Isn't ID no more debatable than evolution?

   Argument Zone

   The debatability of ID and evolution

5. Isn't ID actually creationism by definition, as it posits a creator?

   ID in relation to Bible-based creationism

   What makes ID different than creationism

   Moving ID out of the "creationism" catagory

   Shouldn't this page be merged with creationism?

   ID not Creationism?

6. Are all ID proponents really theists?

   ID proponents who are not theists

   A possible atheist/agnostic intelligent design advocate?

7. Are there any peer-reviewed papers about ID?

   Scientific peer review

   Peer-reviewed stuff of ID (netcody)

8. Is ID really not science?

   ...who include the overwhelming majority of the scientific community...

   Meaning of "scientific"

   Why sacrifice truth

   Rejection of ID by the scientific community section redundant

   Intelligent design is Theology, not Science

   Philosophy in the introduction

   Why ID is not a theory

   Bad philosophy of science (ID is allegedly not empirically testable, falsifiable etc.)

   The "fundamental assumption" of ID

   Peer-reviewed articles

   Figured out the problem

9. Is ID really not internally consistent?;

   Distingushing Philosophical ID (TE) from the DI's Pseudo-Scientific ID

   The many names of ID?

   Removed section by User:Tznkai

   Pre- & post- Kitzmiller, proponents seek to redefine ID

   Defining ID

   Figured out the problem

   "Intelligent evolution"

   ID on the O'Reilly Factor

10. Is the article too long?

    Article Size

    Notes

    The Article Is Too Long

11. Does the article contain original research that inaccurately represents minority views?

    Inadequate representation of the minority View

    The "fundamental assumption" of ID

12. Is the intelligent designer necessarily irreducibly complex? Is a designer needed for irreducibly complex objects?

    Irreducibly complex intelligent designer

    Settling Tisthammerw's points, one at a time

    The "fundamental assumption" of ID

    Irreducibly complex

    Irreducible complexity of elementary particles

    Repeated objections and ignoring of consensus

    Suggested compromise

    Resolution to Wade's & Ant's objections (hopefully)

13. Discussion regarding the Introduction:

    Intro (Rare instance of unanimity)

    Introduction (Tony Sidaway suggests)

14. Is this article is unlike others on Misplaced Pages?

    Why is Wiki Violating its own POV rule

    Call for new editors

    Archives 22, 23, 24

15. Is this article NPOV?

    NPOV

    Archive 25

16. Are terms such as 'scientific community' or 'neocreationist' vague concepts?

    Support among scientists

    "Neocreationist" social, not scientific, observation

    Archive 26

17. How should Darwin's impact be described?

    Pre-Darwinian Ripostes

18. Is the article really that bad?

    WOW! This page is GOOOD!

19. Peer Review and ID

    Peer review?

    Lack of peer review

    Peer Review: Reviewed

20. Discovery Institute and leading ID proponents

    Are all leading ID proponents affiliated with Discovery Institute?

    Archive 32

21. Why is intelligent design lower case, not upper case?

    Renaming Intelligent design as Intelligent Design

22. Is the article trying to equate ID with Christian Creationism and the Discovery Institute too much?

    The article discusses the formulation disseminated by the Discovery Institute affiliates

After reading the Dover ruling . . .

. . . it seems even stranger that this article starts off as it does. The point of the ruling was to determine the religious content of ID, so of course there's going to be a great deal of emphasis given to whether or not it's an argument for the existence of the Christian God. That doesn't mean, however, that the defining and unique element of ID is how it's a teleological argument.

Starting off the article in this manner would be like starting of the Ralph Nader article with "Ralph Nader is a Maronite Christian who is an American attorney and political activist." Yes, it's true, it's sourced, it's probably even important, but it's not the best way to introduce the subject to an uninformed browser. It's simply not the most important and unique thing to know about him, and the religious nature of ID is not the most important and unique thing about ID. Thoughts? --Kgroover 15:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• The religious nature of ID is its raison d'etre. Nomen Nescio 16:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nescio. To state that ID is anything but a religious description of an essential scientific fact is misleading. Reading the Wedge Document, it is clear that the whole reason for ID is to formulate a scientific sounding "theory" to get it into the mainstream scientific teaching process. I think it is POV to describe ID as anything but what it is--an argument for an existence of a supernatural being. Orangemarlin 16:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nescio and Orangemarlin. ID's existence, its nature, and its purpose are defined by the Wedge document and the DI. The Dover ruling is merely confirmation of that. SheffieldSteel 17:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying that it's not a teleological argument. I'm saying that's not the most interesting and notable thing about ID, and in the end the lead would be better structured with that moved farther down. WP:Lead:Writing about Concepts states that notable criticisms should be at the end of the lead, not the beginning. --Kgroover 17:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Intelligent design is a design argument. It's also a tool to bypass Edwards (and McLean), hence its promotion as a scientific "theory". Both of these points are covered. The most notable things about intelligent design is that it's a design argument. What characteristic of ID do you see as being more notable? Guettarda 18:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

What makes anyone believe the opening sentence is criticism? ID is a telelogical argument couched (masked?) in "neutral" language to (as has been mentioned 1000 times) make it worthy of inclusion in public science class. Some people here seem to think framing ID for what it is, a religious notion, is somehow being critical. That is not being critical, peeps. That's being factual, with an unending source of reliable and verifiable sources. Mr Christopher 18:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I just read it again, there is not a single thing in the first paragraph that is critical. Mr Christopher 18:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

the problem is that it is an opinion that is stated without attributing it to someone, so it is representing a particular viewpoint as "the truth" which can only be done, according to WP:NPOV, when it is uncontested fact. since it is clearly not uncontested, we must do what WP:NPOV clearly specifies: we convert this opinion to a fact by attributing it. r b-j 04:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The long-time editors are in agreement. The newer editors gave valued criticisms, but there is not a consensus to shift the lead to read differently. So why are we discussing this further? Orangemarlin 18:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

there has never been consensus for that opening sentence. to repeatedly assert as much is not unimpeachable. the fact that you do not allow toning down the initial sentence which is an opinion (that is widely held) to something akin to the definition or opening sentence from all of the other references is evidence of bias. that you just insist upon uniquely (among encyclopedias) defining ID to be equivalent to the teleological argument is hardly reasonable nor dispassionate. it is insisting that your specific and focussed POV be the Misplaced Pages POV. r b-j 04:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Because the first sentence is in violation of NPOV policy by stating the majority opinion as fact. The majority in this talk favor change (I count 14 for, 10 against, 6 willing to adjust). So that puts it at 20 - 10 for compromising on the lead. There are three things that can be done to fix the sentence. You can remove the declaration of fact, expand the statement, or attribute the statement. Morphh 18:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

So many things to say. First, I don't think it's violating NPOV. You are, but I'm not. Majority does not rule, but consensus does. 14 to 10 is not a consensus. The lead tells the reader what ID is. Not sure how that's wrong. Orangemarlin 20:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

How does it violate NPOV to call ID a teleological argument? How does it violate NPOV to start with the best characterisation of what ID is? Guettarda 18:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The article does not state that it is a teleological argument in the first sentence. It states that it is an argument for the existence of God. Teleological argument defines "God or creator", which would be fine. The statement of if ID defines God is disputed. Therefore, you can not state it as a fact of what ID is. I have no problem with characterizing it in the lead - just do so in a way that doesn't violate the policy. Morphh 19:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Who determines what the 'best characterisation' is? What is POV and not? 68.109.232.53 19:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that we are in agreement that ID is an argument for the existence of an intelligent designer. It would be perverse to argue otherwise.

The only question that remains, then, is who or what that designer might be. Some here say God, and some maintain that theoretically it might be aliens etc. From this point, doesn't WP:UNDUE tell us how best to proceed ? SheffieldSteel 21:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE is good; so is WP:NPOV#Let the facts speak for themselves. The intro paragraph (from WP:NPOV#The neutral point of view) deals with this situation very well, especially the last two sentences:

"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions."

I wasn't a part of the prior consensus, but from some descriptions it almost seems to have been a decision that the court opinion was indeed the correct one, and that readers should just be told that instead of being left to form their own opinions. Surely there must be some way to modify the current lead to give the court opinion its due weight as the majority and unbiased opinion, while still letting the reader form his or her own opinion. -- Cat Whisperer 23:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Is a teleological argument religious by its definition?

The defining part of ID is that is an argument, what kind of argument is it... it's a teleological one. I agree that using "teleological" in the lead is a bad idea, and simplifying it as "an argument for the existence of God" is a pretty good summary. Calling it a teleological argument is not calling it religious. In fact DI is trying its darndest (at least superficially) to create a non-religious teleological argument.--ZayZayEM 02:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Talking about "God" is inherently religious. What about "an argument for the existence of God or a creator", as Morphh has suggested? -- Cat Whisperer 02:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

That is to say, an argument for the existence of a "creator" as an added alternative to the word "God"? Given the wide disparity of viewpoints about what's meant by "God", I fail to see the point of such an addition. ... Kenosis 03:36, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

IMO, Creator could cover a broad definition, where God (with a capital G) specifies a personal monotheistic god. Morphh 12:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

As opposed to what? a committee of gods? ... Kenosis 01:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Cat are you suggesting you can't argue for the existence of God outside of religion?--ZayZayEM 05:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The term "God" has a fairly specific religious connotation (especially when it has a proper noun capitalization). Islam, Hindu, Rasta, etc. all have different primary names for the creator. The term "God" is strongly (although of course not exclusively) associated with the Judeo-Christian God, whereas ID doesn't require the Judeo-Christian God, merely an intelligent creator of some sort. I would be more in favor of "an intelligent being" or something of that sort, that doesn't imply anything supernatural. --Kgroover 12:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

In the modern interfaith discussion, Allah, Brahman, and Jah are all translated into English as "God". Same entity. ... Kenosis 02:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Kgroover expressed it very well. The term "God" has a strong religious connotation. -- Cat Whisperer 16:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed it does have a strong religious connotation, doesn't it? So it appears we've come somewhat full circle back to the earlier comments about ID advocates trying to pull a fast one, so to speak (which is more or less what most of the reliable sources say about ID). In light of the numerous verified, reliable sources used in writing this article, the current expression of WP:NPOV (arrived at by consensus in extremely lengthy discussions to the tune of nearly 4mB of talk) might be said to be actually rather sober and restrained in its presentation of this controversial topic . . . that would be in addition to being quite thorough in its summaries of the teleological concepts put forward by the principle proponents of the approach. ... Kenosis 02:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

We have the most credible, neutral of sources, the court ruling from the Dover trial, itself the only notable and neutral analysis of ID to date, determining as a matter of law that ID is an argument for God, and which is obvious to any reasonable, knowledgable observer: "For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child." ... "This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs’ assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled. Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God. Further evidence in support of the conclusion that a reasonable observer, adult or child, who is "aware of the history and context of the community and forum" is presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism concerns the fact that ID uses the same, or exceedingly similar arguments as were posited in support of creationism."

Since we a significant, neutral source, the definition is well supported and stays. FeloniousMonk 18:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

FM, in fairness shouldn't we cite that leading ID proponent Phillip Johnson – "intelligent design, which really means the reality of God", "a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions", "we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology", "We are removing the most important cultural roadblock to accepting the role of God as creator." Did someone mention that the term "God" has a strong religious connotation? ..... dave souza, talk 19:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

FM, NPOV does not mean take a neutral source and state it as fact. NPOV states just the opposite. I don't argue that this is a neutral and significant source and it should certainly be included and attributed. It is, however, a disputed opinion and should not be stated as a factual conclusion before you even define what ID is. Morphh 22:07, 01 April 2007 (UTC)

And to whom do we attribute this dispute? ..... dave souza, talk 22:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't attribute the dispute - you attribute the statement to make it a fact. NPOV states "assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. ... Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone." Morphh 23:22, 01 April 2007 (UTC)

We have statements from every notable ID proponent saying to their constituents that the designer is God (I can post them here if needed) and we have every significant scientific professional organization saying that it is not science but religion and we have a federal court performing an in-depth and neutral analysis of ID concluding that it is obviously an argument for God. Considering that we have credible and significant sources from all sides of the debate admitting that ID is an argument for God, omitting such a central point from the intro would serve to only further the well documented PR campaign of ID proponents to portray ID as something else, thereby violating NPOV. I mean really, this very point has already been addressed and explained ad nauseum in the archives. Unless you have some new evidence for us to consider, it's time for us to move along to another topic, because these ceaseless and baseless objections are simply fruitless and preventing discussion on other issues. FeloniousMonk 02:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What proponents conclude the designer to be is not the point. What the court concludes the designer to be is not the point. ID itself does not make a conclusion on who the designer is (I can post statements here if needed). Yes - you have a neutral conclusion from a court opinion that it is an argument for God. However, policy states that you can not assert this as fact as it is disputed by proponents that ID specifies the designer as God. It is also improper to start the first sentence with a conclusion and not the definition. The archives show me the same POV pushing we're seeing here until someone gets banned or gives up. If the issue is not addressed, I will escalate it to the next level, so you can give up on just moving to another topic. I have no problem taking this to Mediation, RFC, or Arbitration. Morphh 2:42, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

Now I know you're simply willfully ignoring evidence and policy. What all parties say is paramount: all relevant and notable views on the topic is very much the point when it comes to Misplaced Pages articles. Sounds like you need to read WP:NPOV again. And read the Dover trial ruling again while your at it: that ID itself does not make a conclusion on who the designer is was found by the judge to be a rhetoric device used by ID proponents in order to further their aims, meaning ID being mute on the identity and nature of the designer is a particular point of view, and a highly partisan disengenous one at that; something that the intro of this article needs to be careful repeating as fact either through statement or omission. FeloniousMonk 02:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I was saying that the conclusion of proponents or opponents is not the point as such points are disputed. The policy in regard to disputed points was the point. Of course these views are relevant and to be included. You make the point for me - you state the other opinion here. I never stated it was correct and believe it to be disingenuous myself. You can be careful repeating it - but that doesn't allow you to repeat the other side as fact. Reword it in a careful way that does not state one side as fact over the other. Address the majority opinion by attributing the source to make the statement a fact. Morphh 3:17, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> Hi Morphh, could you please attribute the source making the assertion that it is not a fact that ID is an argument for the existence of God, so that we have a suitable citation for the counter-argument you wish to see presented? Thanks, .. dave souza, talk 03:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Address the majority opinion by attributing the source to make the statement a fact."? That ID is a restatement of the teleological argument is a fact: We have sources from all 3 relevant parties, ID proponents, the scientific community, and the federal courts, all saying just that. FeloniousMonk 03:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Design argument??

Would use of "Intelligent design is a design argument..." be an acceptable compromise?--ZayZayEM 05:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

first we should point out that design argument redirects to teleological argument. how does that remedy the main NPOV dispute?

NPOV dispute does not seem to be about use of teleological argument. It appears to me to be about use of "God" in the lead sentance. And whether or not being an argument from design is intelligent design's defining factor --ZayZayEM 01:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

it is not, by its core definition, synonymous with the teleological argument. it becomes a teleological arguement after analysis of it. at least so in the opinions of many well qualified people (and also in my opinion). but that is not the core definition and never has been (except here at Misplaced Pages). why must Misplaced Pages insert this conclusion regarding ID into its lead definition? why can't it pull back a little from that and simply state the core definition - what the term was coined as - like the other references that are known to be reputable:

American Heritage Dictionary:"the assertion or belief that physical and biological systems observed in the universe result from purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance or undirected natural processes."

Encyclopeida Britannica: "Argument intended to demonstrate that living organisms were created in more or less their present forms by an "intelligent designer"."

Columbia University Encyclopedia:"Intelligent design, theory that some complex biological structures and other aspects of nature show evidence of having been designed by an intelligence."

why must Misplaced Pages put the conclusion that ID is a teleological argument right into the lead sentence? no one else does. what makes Misplaced Pages so much more authorative that WP alone can equate ID to TA where no one else does? just let the facts speak for themselves as WP:NPOV requires. there is plenty of room, even in the lead paragraph, to point out this connection (and attribute it) without forcing down the reader's throat in the initial defining sentence. r b-j 05:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Dispute REDIRECT on that page, not this one. This page is for discussion about improvements to this article. It is great when improvements to one article result in the improvement of others.--ZayZayEM 01:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

no, the issue is here. the redirect of design argument to teleological argument is a different issue that you seem to be trying to distract the present issue here with...

Go to the bookstore, open Dembski's Uncommon Dissent, and look at the "Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data". What's the topic of the books? "Intelligent design (teleology). Is Dembski's publisher part of the conspiracy against ID too? Oh horror of horrors. Guettarda 02:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

you guys continue to sidestep the issue (is it because you don't want to deal with the real issue that i plainly put here several times?) which is what the WP:NPOV policy requires. that is:

assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."

in case you haven't noticed, there is at least a serious dispute regarding the equivalence of definition of ID and the teleological argument. no other reference makes that explicit equivalence in definition. only Misplaced Pages. it is not an undisputed fact that they are equivalent. i put forward a couple of different NPOV definitions from other sources and multiple times it has been unjustifiably dismissed as DI propaganda. it is not. in the dictionary definition and the lead definitions in reputable encyclopedias, there is no mention of the teleological argument or of God or the existance of God. none at all.

the other NPOV policy you ignore, that i have repeatedly pointed to is:

Misplaced Pages is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone.

you insist on stating the widely held opinion, and as the definition no less, that ID is equivalent to the argument for the existance of God as unqualified fact, indeed as definition, when you could be converting that opinion to fact by attributing it and when there is no source of a definition of ID that so equates it to the argument for the existance of God. yes, a federal court and lots of other well qualified persons have rendered that opinion and that fact (that they say so, or have ruled so) must go into the article and even in the lead paragraph (and "my" version did do that, i didn't push it out) but it's not the definition of ID. i didn't just make it up, i copied that definition from reputable source that is not the DI. ID is not, by definition, synonymous with the teleological argument (but i think that any reasonable person can look at it and conclude that there is not much left in it to believe if the so-called "intelligent designer" is not God. but that is not the definition. the definition is along the lines of: "the assertion or belief that physical and biological systems observed in the universe result from purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance or undirected natural processes." that is not DI propaganda, but the dictionary. and you have no widespread and reputable reference that defines ID as the argument for the existance of God.r b-j 08:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well said. Those that keep opposing change need to put forth some compromising language. I'm tried of giving examples and getting nowhere. Even those that seem neutral in the debate have proposed compromising language and get nothing. It is clearly a violation of policy as it is now and needs to be corrected. Morphh 12:35, 01 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree. The article should show a neutral tone in the first sentence or paragraph. Them each side can have their say in subsequent paragraphs. 69.211.150.60 14:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so you are saying it should be left the way it is then? Great. Guettarda 14:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

ZayZayEM, and other commentators: Experience has taught that if it isn't one particular bit of minutia that incites rage among critics of this article, it's quickly replaced by another bone of contention. And if it isn't some bit of minutia, it's about the article generally ("I don't feel I like the article's tone"; "It's not NPOV"; "Who the hell is Misplaced Pages not to follow the Encyclopedia Britannica's approach" "It's not 'fair and balanced'", etc. etc.) In order to determine why the current form of article is a perfectly reasonable expression of WP:NPOV by WP:Consensus on a controversial topic, one would perhaps look more closely at the history of the discussion, among the lengthiest on the entire wiki, much of which is catalogued by subtopic of discussion. Attempting to enact a "compromise" of language which is already beset with numerous intensively discussed compromises and solutions to the issues involved in a complex, controversial topic such as ID would not be appropriate at this stage of the article's history. Between 2003 and early 2006, the facts and reliable sources regarding this topic were very much in flux as new information emerged about this topic, especially in the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial (December, 2005) and in the published material issued in its wake (most of which was issued by the Spring of 2006) . Since then, although there has been a smattering of newer published reliable sources. the basic information available about the topic has not significantly changed in approximately the past year. More recently this WP article was thoroughly peer reviewed by the broader WP community, modified in accordance with that feedback and criticism, and granted "Featured Article" rating. In light of this, seeking a new "compromise" of the language in the article in response to the current complaints at this stage would neither be in the letter nor the spirit of NPOV, particularly WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, and would be diluting the utility and informativeness of the article only to be replaced by another set of tendentious arguments about something else that doesn't sit right with current critics of this WP article. It would seem that it's in the nature (or is it "supernature") of writing an objective and informative article about a topic that is inherently deceptive by design.

In short, the currently proposed changes would only diminish the informativeness of the article, and reduce, not enhance, its expression of the NPOV about intelligent design. ... Kenosis 14:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No way do you get off by claiming past consensus and cyclical disputes about this or that. You don't get to claim that at some point in the past, these issues were finalized and therefore don't have to be addressed. I don't care who you had reviewing - at this point in time and looking at the sentence, it is in violation of NPOV. You keep side stepping the issue. Can you prove that ID is an argument for the existence of God (and God alone) as an undisputed fact?! The answer is No, because it is disputed and the opinion of the majority and in this case the court. Don't side step it - address it! Morphh 17:38, 01 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes we do. It's called consensus. The only time long term contributors here have to readdress an issue previously settled is when new evidence is introduced, otherwise, WP:RTFA. And constantly re-raising objections while ignoring evidence and consensus is called disruption, something a good number of individuals have been keel hauled and banned/blocked for by both arbitration and the community, so let's not misrepresent the state of debate here and continue disrupting the project with yet another bite at the same apple; there is a limit to the community's patience. FeloniousMonk 18:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

From the consensus page - "Once established, consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind. A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision about an article, but when the article gains wider attention, members of the larger community of interest may then disagree, thus changing the consensus. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision." From the NPOV dispute - "The vast majority of neutrality disputes are due to a simple confusion: one party believes "X" to be a fact, and — this party is mistaken (see second example below) — that if a claim is factual, it is therefore neutral. The other party either denies that "X" is a fact, or that everyone would agree that it is a fact. In such a dispute, the first party needs to re-read the Neutral Point of View policy. Even if something is a fact, or allegedly a fact, that does not mean that the bold statement of that fact is neutral. Neutrality here at Misplaced Pages is all about presenting competing versions of what the facts are. It doesn't matter at all how convinced we are that our facts are the facts. If a significant number of other interested parties really do disagree with us, no matter how wrong we think they are, the neutrality policy dictates that the discussion be recast as a fair presentation of the dispute between the parties." Your point about consensus and reading the archive are irrelevant and an attempt to distract from the issue. It appears that the sentence has been a problem since its introduction by Kenosis on January 19, 2007. I don't see consensus, just POV pushing from the same group. You have twice as many editors stating that this sentence is a problem. If anything, there is consensus of a POV violation and to change it. It is a clear violation of the NPOV policy and requires addressing. Even if (big if) it were determined to not be in violation, it is still a problem for neutrality policy and should be changed per the guidelines since there is such dispute over the wording. Morphh 20:25, 01 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, we have literally dozens of sources from the ID proponents themselves, the scientific community, and a federal court all saying that ID is an argument for God.

Per WP:NPOV the article should not present the rhetoric of the carefully crafted PR campaign of ID proponents as fact, which is what your objections and proposed omission calls for. FeloniousMonk 03:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Also from WP:NPOV dispute: "There are many ways that an article can fail to adhere to the NPOV policy. Some examples are: The article can simply be biased, expressing viewpoints as facts." The writeup goes on to describe other ways to violate NPOV that require a subjective evaluation. However, this first manner of NPOV violation is a matter of straight-forward, objective evaluation, and by this unambiguous criterion, the present lead sentence clearly violates NPOV in just this manner. -- Cat Whisperer 03:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Specifically how does the article's intro violate NPOV policy? FeloniousMonk 03:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest "ID is a postulate stating that the universe was created by an intelligent designer. Many see this as an argument for the existence of a god." Both these statements are verifiable and can be sourced. I'm not sure about the word "postulate", and "a god" could just be "God", but would something along those lines be acceptable? --h2g2bob 14:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This is, unfortunately, something of a "red herring". The very point of ID is to attempt to sidestep the US Supreme Court's decision in Edwards v. Aguilard by recasting creationism as a brand of science so that creationism might be taught in biology classes as an alternative to evolution. The scientific community has said "no way" and so has the federal court in Kitzmiller v. Dover, which characterized ID as "essentially religious in nature". Due to the inherently controversial nature of this topic which is beset by advocacy of an agenda of this kind, there is no language the article could possibly use that would forseeably satisfy everyone's preferences and cause the arguments on this page to come to a conclusion. None of the recently proposed alternatives appear to improve the explanation provided by the WP article, and most of the recent proposals actually would diminish the extent of informativeness of the article. ... Kenosis 15:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but your POV should not be the one that dictates the structure of the article. There should be a consensus. 209.101.205.82 17:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I support Kenosis' position here, and I can think of at least eight other credible, long term contributors to this article who do as well, so it's time to move along to another topic. FeloniousMonk 18:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with FM. The only POV is anonymous user's POV along with a few others. This discussion has been done many times over, and new editors show up every few days to make the same old points. This article is NPOV. The rest is just causing problems. Let's can this discussion and move on. Orangemarlin 18:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

ID as presented by its proponents argues that the appearance of complexity provides "scientific evidence" for the existence of God. The present wording summarises it clearly and concisely. .. dave souza, talk 19:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If we have to change it to an undisputed statement of fact, how about this? "Intelligent Design is an argument put forward by the Discovery Institute stating that the complexity observed in the natural universe is better explained by the existence of an intelligent designer than by current mainstream scientific theories." SheffieldSteel 22:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This works for me. Morphh 23:23, 01 April 2007 (UTC)

It is fundamentally less informative and accurate and more ambiguous than the current phrasing. Leaving out the conclusion of the only notable and neutral official analysis of what ID is simply will not pass muster against NPOV. FeloniousMonk 01:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Then state the conclusion of the only notable and neutral official analysis of what ID is as such, and not as a fact. The WP:NPOV policy writeup shows exactly how such a sentence should be worded. -- Cat Whisperer 03:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Felonious. This is a clumsy way of wording what it essentially says now. It puts an incorrect focus on the idea coming from the Institute (which was formed afterwards, to support the idea). It also reduces ID to merely an "argument", this vague when it has been identified as specifically a design argument.--ZayZayEM 03:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is better. At least it is not biased. And I read above where one editor was uncomfortable with new editors showing up. I thought wiki wanted new editors. The old guard wants to be protected from new ideas and the changes in the world view. The world changes daily and new scientific discoveries are happening daily. I think wiki should welcome new thought. 68.109.234.155 23:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I contend, so do many others, that no change is required. I appreciate your efforts SheffieldSteel, but they aren't necessary. The article should stand as written. As for new editors, all are welcome. But they should first understand the wealth of conversation that had preceded the state of the current article. A consensus was formed long ago. To revisit the same consensus time after time is not productive. Orangemarlin 00:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Orangemarlin is correct about both the article content, its level of support, and the state of the debate. FeloniousMonk 01:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I contend, so do many others (a majority by count), that a change is required. I appreciate your efforts SheffieldSteel, but they are absolutely necessary. The article must change to conform with Misplaced Pages policy (particularly as an FA). The wealth of conversation starts only a couple of months ago on this point and the consensus is the same group pushing the current lead. In addition, consensus policy states that "consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind. A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision about an article, but when the article gains wider attention, members of the larger community of interest may then disagree, thus changing the consensus. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision." So this shouldn't even be used as an argument. Morphh 2:17, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but reading the page it's clear that most credible, long term contributors here agree that your objections are baseless, failing to take into account the full spectrum and significance of evidence, and do not align well with policy. FeloniousMonk 02:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

We've been discussing the issue for almost two weeks and I haven't seen you turn one person around on the issue. It doesn't matter what the "full spectrum" is - that doesn't allow you to state an opinion as fact. Morphh 3:00, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

FM doesn't have to turn anyone around. The status quo stands unless there is a compelling argument to the contrary. On the facts, your points, though well discussed, have not made any headway with most of us. On the law (or let's call it rules of Misplaced Pages), you cannot change unless there is consensus. There isn't one, because what is verifiable is already in the lead. Orangemarlin 03:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

A More Clear Picture

Intelligent design as have come to know it is not close to much of what this article remarks about it. I desire to present a more concise view. There are three views regarding the origin of the natural Universe: 1. Creationism, 2. Intelligent Design, and 3. Blind Watchmaker arguments. Creationism arises from Christian fundamentalist who take the literal understanding of the Bible as the origin of the universe and have little interest in scientific discovery. Intelligent Design originated from William Paley making an analogy of God who designed the universe as a watchmaker. The Blind Watchmaker includes soup kitchen theories, evolution, big bang theory among others and originated when David Hume refuted William Paley's watcher maker analogy.

The underlying event that both the Blind Watchmaker and Intelligent Design employ follows:

"One is strolling along somewhere in the universe when they happen upon a complex object. Curious, a scientific discovery is launched to investigate the order behind this complex object. Once the discovery is complete an ascertation is made regarding the complex objects origin."

The science used to study the order behind the complex object is consistent for both the Blind Watchmaker and Intelligent Design. However, when the ascertation is made regarding origin the two diverge. Intelligent design proponents remark that God is the origin of all things natural and is willing to review new discovery in the context of God's creation. However, the Blind Watchmaker proponents relegate origin to another discovery that is not yet known.

Other problems arise in fundamental science as proponents of the two arguments are often unable to agree on the basic nature of the universe. The most controversial premises stem from at least two concepts:

1. Randomness. Blind Watchmakers, Evolutionists, rely on unbounded random natural selection and unbounded random events or otherwise known as true randomness as an underpinning to their theories. Meanwhile, Intelligent Design proponents view randomness as not a natural phenomenon but instead a convention that is used to explain that which appears to be random but is not. Instead of being random the universe is perfectly ordered according to Intelligence Design proponents.

2. Scientific principles and axioms are consistent, durable, and uniform throughout the universe. Intelligent Design proponents hold this to be true. However, Blind Watchmaker proponents contend that certain processes no longer exist or have ceased to operate. This is the case with evolutionary processes which acted on a protoplasmal globule billions of years ago beginning the evolutionary chain of events for biological life. However, these evolutionary processes for some unknown reason have not acted upon any other protoplasmal globule since that time. Thus, under this view scientific principles and axioms are not durable since only a single evolutionary thread is currently known to be running.

The honest problem is not whether Intelligent Design is a science as the science should be consistent. Instead, the root problem is the issue of origin. By objectively structuring the concept of Intelligent Design the more controversial elements can be isolated and dealt with in a more effective manner than the current obfuscation. (MrMiami 00:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

• "ely on unbounded random natural selection" - mmm, no. Natural selection is highly non-random.
• "Scientific principles and axioms are consistent, durable, and uniform throughout the universe. Intelligent Design proponents hold this to be true. However, Blind Watchmaker proponents contend that certain processes no longer exist or have ceased to operate" - I think you have this the wrong way round. Guettarda 02:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Evolution remarks that random chance events spark life into existence and mutate DNA.

Clarify. The way I see it if evolutionary processes are consistent and durable then every protoplasmal globule since the first one would have evolutionary processes acting on it. Hence, there would be multiple evolutionary thread lines and no need for a fossil record. In short, neanderthal, cromagnon, and homo sapiens would co-exist as these evolutionary processes would be at different stages. But that is not the case. I know of no Intelligent Design arguments that do not embrace ordinary science when relating to the behavior of the natural universe.(MrMiami 02:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

It is not the case because the way you see it is incorrect. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

remarks of this nature with no supporting strength are purely emotional and do not belong in this discussion. (MrMiami 02:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

KS is right - you appear to misunderstand both evolution and intelligent design. Guettarda 02:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Then you need to clarify your position and not simply point to an ethereal misunderstanding. BTW you are conversing with an individual who has an extensive background in aerospace engineering, physics, and mathematics.(MrMiami 02:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

With your background, I would heartily recommend "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan as a rewarding and informative read. Although it does not cover creationism per se it contains invaluable expositions of the principles and methods of scientific, rational thinking, which cast this debate in a very definite and clear light. SheffieldSteel 02:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I am familiar with Carl Sagan's work. Sagan's work has been greatly reduced in importance over the years as he has been proven to be many things other than a scientist. He was good story teller for one. He formed SETI that is far from being a scientific research organization. He also rushed to the media with his political position on nuclear warfare masked as science research. There was no such research and those claims he made are laughed at today. Above all he was an atheist thus his worldview and subsequent science were relegated to this notion of origin. Please focus on the topic at hand. Let us discuss ID. (MrMiami 03:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

I'm sorry if you perceived my comment to be emotional, though I'm afraid I don't see the emotion in it. If you do not understand aspects of evolution, I would be happy to explain them to you on our talk pages, since article talk pages are not the proper place for this sort of this discussion. — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Richard Dawkins popularized the term "Blind Watchmaker" recently in his book of that name. The emergence of this book begins to clearly demarcate that Evolution and other Blind Watchmaker Theories are truly atheistic in nature. What we really have is two arguments about origin in which one comes down to God and the other one comes down to atheistic beliefs of a God that is a NULL. The science should be consistent and apart from the two arguments. (MrMiami 03:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

This position is OR and POV.--ZayZayEM 03:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I am attempting to establish the correct position the ID and Blind Watchmaker arguments in relation to science. This places the two arguments on the same plane establishing a NPOV for the science that both use. I have established that Blind watchmaker arguments relegate origin to another discovery and nothing more. This is the position of those who are Atheistic such as Carl Sagan who promoted Blind watchmaker theories. The science of the two should be equal and the ascertation on origin is a POV for both arguments. (MrMiami 03:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC))

Science would be better described as agnostic rather than atheistic. Atheists assert that there is no god. Science states there is no evidence for God, and that natural processes can be used to explain the universe. In particular, evolution certainly does not imply that God does not exist: it says nothing about the origin of the universe, the formation of Earth, or the origin of life, for example (explanations for which fall in other areas of science). — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Restoring my deleted comment: Are trying to make a specific point about the article's content? Because if not, this is not the place to discuss ID's relative merits vs mainstream science.

Also, MrMiami, do not delete the comments of others, please read our policy, WP:TALK#Others.27_comments. FeloniousMonk 03:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Change wikilink?

{{editprotected}} Can the link to Summa Theologiae be updated to Summa Theologica? We've had a change of article name. Thanks ... David aukerman 02:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I updated the link destination, although the link text remains the same. CMummert · talk 02:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Can a {{POV-assertion}} tag be placed after the first comma in the first sentence, since this is the main dispute and why the article is protected. Morphh 2:46, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no dispute. Two editors, yourself included, have argued without convincing anyone. There is no POV in the lead. Orangemarlin 03:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Funny - I count 15 editors (a majority) that dispute it and you haven't convinced any one of them. Nice how you minimize the issue to push your POV. Morphh 3:22, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been convinced from my initial query into the articles clarity. The current lead is appears to the best in terms of being conscise, NPOV and clear when compared to any of the alternatives being proposed by the people disputing it. This doesn't mean its perfect. All articles are open to improvement.--ZayZayEM 03:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

So you find that "ID is an argument for the existence of God" (and only God) as fact without dispute? This is what NPOV requires, otherwise, this majority opinion must be attributed. Morphh 3:36, 02 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like poisoning the well to me. I'd object to adding any sort of additional tag. FeloniousMonk 03:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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