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{{Talk header}} |
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{{WikiProject Slovakia|class=B|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B| |
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{{WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|class=B|portal=November 2006}} |
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{{WikiProject Slovakia|importance=Top}} |
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{{WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|portal=November 2006}} |
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{{User:ClueBot III/ArchiveThis |
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==Bull sh.t== |
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|archiveprefix=Talk:Coat of arms of Slovakia/Archive |
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This article is a bull sh.t. There is no archaeological or other evidence that double cross was used in the 9th century Moravia. All archaeological and iconographical sources related to that state contain only simple latin crosses. The writer of this article uses a well established goebbelsian method that a lie repeated many times becomes a truth. I can understand that the author is a beleiver of such a "truth", but he is just parasiting on the Hungarian history. --] (]) 11:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC) |
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==Fake== |
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What is this???Only in the slovak history conception!!True datas, but...i feel so St.Stephan was slav/proto-SLOVAK after this text(hungarian history without hungarians. Really, this is the Slovak history??)-interesting! |
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And Presporok in this text??, this is fake name in the 10th century! |
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}} |
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"The double cross symbol appeared again in rudimentary features on the first coins that Stephen I, the first king of the Kingdom of Hungary((((((:D HURRÁÁ, this is tru)))))))))) (part of which the territory of present -day Slovakia was from the 10/11th century), had minted at an unknown place. Before he became king in 1000, he was the prince of the Principality of Nitra in present-day Slovakia ((((((//Saint Stephen was born "Vajk" in the town of Esztergom. His father was Grand Prince Géza of Hungary; his mother was Sarolt, daughter of Gyula of Transylvania a Hungarian nobleman who.....//))))) and was living there with his BAVARIAN wife Gisella (((((By this marriage, the hungarian Stephan became the brother-in-law of the future Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor. )))))) in the old Christian center Nitra. Moreover, at the beginning of his rule, they lived in Prešporok((((Posonium((Pozsony))))))) (Bratislava today), a town in which coins of Stephan were provably minted at that time. The frequent opinion that the double cross was a cross that the Pope granted to Stephen I. around 1000 is still disputed. The opinion arose only in the 15th century based on a legend from the 12th century, which in addition only says that Stephen received an apostolic cross (i.e. a normal, not a double cross)......... |
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Pff, This Article.......... szándékos csúsztatás, ezáltal a magyar vonatkozások minimalizálása! Félrevezetés, manipulálás! |
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HUNGARIAN-SLOVAK HISTORYBOOK????? NEVER!!!!!!!! |
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And the Slovak coat of arms was/is a hungarian symbol in the history and today! |
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YES THE DOUBLE CROSS IS A HUNGARIAN SYMBOL! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 23:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Except the symbol is much older than Hungary... --] (]) 21:53, 31 August 2009 (UTC) |
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Nitra coat of arms: ] <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==NPOV== |
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Though I am not an expert in this area, it seems that the writer(s) wish(es) to push a particular point of view, one of somewhat fanatic (if fervent and heartfelt) Slovak nationalism. |
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Referring to the double cross as coming from the Byzantine tradition (ultimately true enough) without mentioning that it was adopted by 'Hungarian' ruler Bela III, who was brought up in the Byzantine court, seems to have no other purpose than completely ignoring Hungarian presence and rule in the area of modern Slovakia, as does referring to "Bratislava", which was not called that at that time--it actually had many different names. |
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Also, is the info on the patriarchal cross better placed in the article ]? |
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Please refer to the article on the ] for a better example of a neutral toned article.] 07:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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This is incredible. It is the Hungarian article that is a huge infantile mess and you dare to put this tag to this article, although it mentions all the connections to Hungary that exist??? This is the most anti-Slovak version of such an article that can be written, not one single word is a POV. In addition, you last steps show that you have absolutely no idea what you are writing here, so please stick to what you know and stop this primitive campaign. The tag will be deleted immediately.] 06:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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As for Bratislava - it had many different names, really? And which town in Europe did not have different names? And do we use the various unindentifiable 9th century names because of that? We don't. But if this is your main "concern" you are free to change that. ] 06:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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The main problem of "Bratislava" is that you don't see any citation of it before 1920. Do you? ] (]) 14:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:Your own words on this talk page demonstrate the point I was trying to make perfectly: That I "dare to put this tag on this article..." references to my allegedly "primitive campaign" and your granting me permission to make an edit on the article: "...you are free to change that..." |
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:I am sorry you are angry. But are these kinds of inflammatory statements about another Wikipedian 'really' the best approach? If you were trying to communicate any helpful message, it has been lost. What I heard instead is that you have no respect for Hungarian users; you have no respect for me as a person and for my point of view, which may differ from your own; and you are either unwilling or unable to address the concerns that I brough up by my edit. |
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:You own words demonstrate the kind of POV pushing that I am trying to point out in the article. If Misplaced Pages is to function, we have to be able to have rational debates. Using inflammatory rhetoric helps no one and contributes nothing to the article nor to Misplaced Pages. |
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:I stand by my recent edits, and in a spirit of friendship challenge you to directly address the issues I raised. ] 07:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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::My reaction results from your primitive edits and additions in the Slovak nobility article, which show that you have absolutely no idea what you are doing. And I am not ready to spend my time with discussions with such people, I am too long in the wikipedia to know where this leads. I have written this article some two years ago based on scientific texts, with all necessary pictures etc. and will not go to the library to search them and all the primary argument chains again, because of someone who has absolutely no idea what he is doing here (the cover for ignorance in such topics is always fighting against "nationalism" with such articles). The whole discussion would end by questions of the type "and why is 1+1 = 2" and not 3 - prove it... |
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And: This article is NOT nationalist, it is anti-nationalist, and the facts it contains are not more disputed than any other facts from the Middle Ages. Like this, I could go and add fact-tags to every second sentence in any older article the wikipedia and finish this "glorious activity" by putting a NOPV tag at the beginning of each article (after all, there are "fact" tags in the text, aren't they?). Or even better, let us put a NPOV tag right at the Main Page of the wikipedia... ] 07:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC) |
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Juro, can you please explain what makes the ] article "a huge infantile mess" in your opinion? I'm asking it not because that article happens to be written mostly by me, but because maybe you can find ways to improve it. |
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I think InFairness made good edits to this article. And please don't start this "using modern names for medieval towns" again... |
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] 13:10, 5 February 2006 (UTC) |
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When I have the time...] 07:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC) |
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"Slovakia, as an heir of Christian tradition" seems to suggest to the reader that Slovakia - a non-existent country at the time - was some kind of center of Christianity or that it played an important role at all in the early Middle Ages. The article tries to carefully downplay the difference that there is no continuity between the Byzantine and the current Slovak majority religion (Catholic on the account of Hungary and Protestant on the account of Czech (Hussite) immigrants). ] 21:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC) |
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== The three mounds == |
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''When used as the symbol for northern parts of the kingdom, it was usually used with three hills below the double cross, and when used as a symbol of kings, it was used without the three hills.'' |
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Is this sure? What about these? |
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The first great seal of Louis I. |
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http://www.mek.oszk.hu/01900/01948/html/index136.html |
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The second great seal of Louis I. |
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http://www.mek.oszk.hu/01900/01948/html/index139.html |
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Both contains the triple mound. |
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The text says "usually", that does not mean always. Also the sentence probably refers to a slightly earlier period. ] 16:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC) |
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1. Well, a great seal is important enough to be made precisely. Louis II crowned in 1342 so I presume his first great seal was made the same time. It would be good to know earlier depictions of the double cross with the triple mound. |
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::I do not remember anymore from where the sentence stems, if you think it is better not to have it there, just remove it (that will not cause any harm to the text). ] 13:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC) |
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2. I changed "normal cross" to apostolic cross. ] 13:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC) |
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::You do not have to discuss such obvious points. ] 13:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC) |
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== Coins of Béla == |
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''Béla had own coins minted in 1050 in Nitra, the capital of his principality – coins which deliberately differed from those of the Hungarian king and which beared the double cross symbol.'' |
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I never heard before that Béla as Duke of Nitra used a double cross symbol. As far as I know it first appeared during the reign of Béla III. So I searched for this coin. |
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Here is a picture: |
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I can't see the double cross. ??? ] 06:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC) |
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Maybe you should look better. If it were not a double cross, then i see no meaning in that long arm, which ends with a little cross. ] 23:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)borislav |
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I have found an essay (by a Slovak author) saying that seeing double cross in these coins is a misinterpretation. |
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Titus Kolník: Byzantské korene ikonografie a symboliky štátneho znaku Slovenskej republiky |
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Historický Zborník, 1999. 9. 13–32. p. |
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/Since I do not speak Slovak, I used this brief review in Hungarian.-> / ] 06:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC) |
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More here: ] --] (]) 09:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC) |
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== Godfrey of Bouillon == |
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I thought the Cross of Lorraine got its name from being on the coat of arms of Godfrey of Bouillon, Duke of Lorraine, one of the outstanding figures of the First Crusade. Or was I misinformed? -] 14:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== ??? == |
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"Béla was a member of the house of Árpáds and was named after the Prague bishop Adalbert" whatthe hell?! His name was BÉLA, NOT Adalbert. So why was he named after him, eh?? <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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probably because béla is the hungarian form of albert... <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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'''his traditional Slovak view has been recently disputed''' |
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?! .. who where :) .. i never lisen something abouth that .. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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] (Magyar /belɒ/, English /beɪlə/ "BAY-luh") is a common Hungarian male given name. according to the English/German/Pole Wiki |
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Someone may create a Slovakian one to make this clear for them too. --] (]) 09:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC) |
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== Similarities with the Hungarian Coat of arms == |
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{| |
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| ]|| ''"Since the Upper Hungary coat of arms was already part of the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Hungary at that time"'' I would argue on that, the Árpád stripes represent the House of Árpáds, not Hungary (but undeniable: it's a strong Hungarian symbol). The other half represents Hungary, (the historical and also the current). |
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| ] || When the ] came into power, they preserved the Árpád stripes to represent continuity in the king's right to rule the kingdom. Simply as a sign of the power of the king. And it's still in use to salut to the Great leaders of young Hungary. |
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| ] || Used by ] : copy-pasted from the English wiki ''"Coat of arms (clockwise from upper left): paternal (Hungary – the Arpad stripes – and Anjou-Sicily), Poland, Dalmatia, and Hungary (the double cross)."'' |
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| ] || If you check the "big" Hungarian Coat of arms, you may see those symbols around the current Hungarian coat of arms can be named: ], ], ], ], ] and ], but you never will find "Upper Hungary". The Hungarian coat of arms took the central position (and it's has roughly the same size as each other), because Hungary had the leading position. The ] ''(which is bigger than Slovakia)'' has no "independent" flag or coat of arms, because it not considered a different "place". |
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I personally like the Slovakian coat of arms, because it's reflects the common history between the Slovak and Hungarian people. But I dislike the fact: they are trying to sell them as an original Slovakian symbols (hills double cross). Which is not in sync with the Misplaced Pages's Policies and guidelines ---> Neutrality |
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And also not helping people, the argue will never end this way. |
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* Remove the "Upper Hungary" denomination. |
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* Don't expropriate the hills and the double cross (yeah yeah everyone can make an explonation) |
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* remove all uncredited info --> all {{Citation needed|date=November 2011}} because there is a LOT of those (and I am not fan of those), which are degrade the quality of an article. |
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Regards ] (]) 09:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC) |
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:''they are trying to sell them as an original Slovakian symbols (hills double cross)'' Really?<br /> |
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:During the 11th century (and before: Svatopluk, Principality of Nitra...) the dukes of Nitra had almost unlimited power in their territory. The coat of arms of the duchy displayed the two-armed cross that was absorbed into the Hungarian state emblem as a symbol for upper Hungary.<br /> |
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:Nitra coat of arms: ] --] (]) 12:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC) |
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Oh dear... I seen that before, but never was older than 91 years. (not a joke, searched for hours) |
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No matter how hard I tried, Svatopluk's coat of arms also was a dead end. (zero hit) :( |
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The only "old" coat of arms which I found is ] which shows the well known Árpád stripes+hills with double cross combo |
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I can't find an actual image taken from a ] or seal on some document where we might see those. |
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The first appearance of the double cross obviuosly wasn't in Hungary, we sometimes call it "Bizánci kereszt" refering to the origin. We didn't say that. I was referring the composition of the '''hills and cross''' together. |
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You may help us if you can find something a solid proof about those coat of amrs. |
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--] (]) 15:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC) |
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(ps.: I am also glad you interested in the Hungarian language :) ) |
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