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	Why would you revert my page back to the old page by Noisy?
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	:I am trying to integrate parts of it into the article. However much of it is not necessary or should be in another article like ]. See what I have done now. ] 21:11, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
			{{WikiProject Libraries\|importance=Top}}
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			==Top picture==
	Are you a librarian? Your edit is not very good. Who does someone go to to complain about your judgement and editorial merits, or lack of them? I thought this was suppose to be a USER supported service? By what criteria do apply your editorial judgement? I think important information in the Librarian category is missing. A person who is interested in BECOMING a librarian may want to know about the settings of librarians. Over all, a horrible edit.
			The top picture does not reflect a librarian. It's not even a person and would be better in the section about librarians in popular culture (which I also think needs an update). I think the article would be better served by showing librarians doing actual librarianship. I'm looking into more pictures. There's quite a few nice ones of librarians "in action" on commons. I hope others weigh in, otherwise, I'll be bold and pick something out. :) ] (]) 18:31, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
	--] 21:36, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
			:I agree! This photo shows two librarians from San Francisco Public Library "in action" but honestly I'd be happy with anything you pick out. https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Librarians_at_Bay_Area_WikSalon_-_2.jpg ] (]) 19:04, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
	:That material should go in the ] article where in fact it already is. This article is to be a general article with world-wide applicability. ] 21:52, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
			::{{yo\|Merrilee}} I do like that picture. I think we could use it in the article (which I think needs a lot of work!). But for the top picture, I really want to see an "action shot" of people in a library doing library stuff, and bonus for diversity! I haven't found the pic I'm "in love with" yet. :) ] (]) 02:13, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
			:::I also just noticed that there's no section about librarians and Misplaced Pages! This article needs major work!!! ] (]) 02:15, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
			::::]. ] (]) 06:18, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
			:::::Except that librarians have helped improve Misplaced Pages through #1lib#1ref. It's not navel gazing if it's noteworthy. :) ] (]) 22:57, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

			== Objections to recent additions ==
	Okay, I see what you have done. I am sorry if I got snotty.
	--] 22:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

			] recently added two paragraphs to this article and I have objections to them.

			The first paragraph was added in a new "COVID-19" section:
	== ] Re-edits, dispute between Rmhermen and Mikerussell ==
			:Librarians and other library workers in the ] who weren't stationed inside the library due to library closures were deployed as work from home ] contact tracers to aid in contacting individuals believed to have contracted Covid-19, encouraging them to ], while also educating them about safety during the pandemic.<ref>{{Cite web\|title=Librarians Recruited as COVID-19 Hunters\|url=https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/contact-tracing-librarians-recruited-as-covid-19-hunters/\|access-date=2020-10-25\|website=American Libraries Magazine\|language=en-US}}</ref>

			I object to this material because it implies that many or all "librarians and other library workers" were employed as contact tracers. The supporting reference doesn't support that claim; it only describes a couple of libraries.
	After some research on my part about the status of adminstrators in Misplaced Pages, I have decided to make several necessary changes to Rmherman's edit. If the dispute goes further, we will have to ask for mediation, or at least I will have to.

			The second paragraph was added in the "Popular culture" section:
	1.''A '''librarian''' is a type of professional who works in a ].''
			:In popular culture, it has become a trend to say, "Librarian, the original search engine." It was has gained quite a lot of traction in social media and among librarians but some simply loathe the slogan or comparison.<ref>{{Cite web\|date=2012-11-30\|title=You would not say, "Astronomers: The Original Telescope"\|url=https://litwinbooks.com/you-would-not-say-astronomers-the-original-telescope/\|access-date=2020-10-27\|website=Litwin Books & Library Juice Press\|language=en-US}}</ref>

			The cited source is a blog post entirely insufficient to support the broad claims made in the paragraph. We need much stronger sourcing to support claims made in an encyclopedia article. ] (]) 02:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
	What does that mean? A prostitute who cops Johns in abandoned study carrels? A very poor way to start the article, imprecise and logically circular. Would you start a article about ] like- ''A lawyer is a type of professional that works in a courthouse.''

			:According to the CDC Librarians were one of the choices for use as contact tracers. <ref>{{cite web \|title=Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) \|url=https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/contact-tracing/contact-tracing-plan/scaling-staff.html \|website=Centers for Disease Control and Prevention \|language=en-us \|date=11 February 2020}}</ref> I found other articles that mention Librarians as contact tracers in Denver and Massachusetts <ref>{{cite web \|title=As States Seek COVID Detectives, Librarians Are Among The Candidates \|url=https://www.kunc.org/health/2020-05-11/as-states-seek-covid-detectives-librarians-are-among-the-candidates \|website=KUNC \|language=en \|date=12 May 2020}}</ref> <ref>{{cite web \|title=Contact Tracing and Libraries – MBLC Blog \|url=https://mblc.state.ma.us/mblc_blog/2020/06/17/contact-tracing-and-libraries/ \|website=mblc.state.ma.us}}</ref> but as you can imagine, mentioning librarians becoming contact tracers is probably not at the top of the list for most news articles. The work of librarians has been largely changed as they have been temporarily displaced from their usual jobs and asked to have chosen to volunteer in other areas where their skills could be used. <ref>{{cite web \|title=Other (Pandemic) Duties as Assigned \|url=https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/blogs/the-scoop/other-pandemic-duties-as-assigned/ \|website=American Libraries Magazine}}</ref> I do agree wording could be edited but I don't think it should be entirely thrown out. I figured the temporary change in work for librarians during the pandemic should be mentioned here that is why I added it.
	2.''Examples of library information sources:''

			:As for the second edit, it is a phrase often seen in popular librarian gifs. I agree it can be reworded. I have seen it on shirts, bags, and even mugs used by librarians. It was just a fun addition and I figured it fit under pop culture. The Library of Congress even sells a shirt, mug, and journal in their online shop with the quote. <ref>{{cite web \|title=Search Engine Librarian Journal \|url=https://library-of-congress-shop.myshopify.com/search?q=Search+Engine \|website=Library of Congress Shop \|language=en}}</ref>
	*''Gramophone records and compact discs''
	*''Photographs and videotape''
	*''Newspapers, magazines and scientific journals''
	*''Computer databases''
	*''Online resources''''

			:Again I apologize, this is my first time editing and I am only doing this for a class. I'm being graded for editing articles and am still learning to use the interface. It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes. I sincerely thought they were being removed because I was editing them wrong.
	Is not needed, and lacks informative impact, the article is not written for people who have never been in a library, or have been under a rock or on Mars. Too trivial for inclusion. People understand media formats and what can be found in libraries.

			:--] (]) 03:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
	:Sure, Misplaced Pages editors hang out in libraries, but people who are using this encyclopedia to learn something may not. Every week, it seems, adults who have finished their education come to my reference desk apologizing that they haven't been in a library for years. And as more and more students use the Internet (especially Misplaced Pages) from home to do their research, they'll never have to step inside a library building unless they absolutely need something published on paper that's not available online. And they often start their question with the phrase, "Excuse me, I need a book ..." not realizing that the best resource is a magazine or newspaper article, a pamphlet, or that there are books on tape. Yes, interrupting this article with bulleted list is an awkward way of listing information formats, but somehow you have to get the point across to most people, who have narrow but deep knowledge in their favorite fields, that only librarians have broad but shallow knowledge in all fields and formats. ] 18:00, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

			::No apologies necessary! This is an active project with tens of thousands of users so it has a rather complex and weird culture and set of norms that aren't always consistent or visible. ] (]) 14:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
	3.''Librarians can be found in '''many areas'''. ], public schools, and ] are the most common employers. Librarians can also be found in businesses, government departments, hospitals, law firms, museums, and '''other large organizations where academic research is performed or where large quantities of information are stored'''.''

			::Public Librarians are being asked to help with contact tracing and PPE provision in many jurisdictions. Libraries are being reduced in staffing due to closures and this has been a feature of the current scope of work since the pandemic. Thank you for reviewing and explaining your point of view. I have taught 3 classes since the pandemic began and at least 35% of enrolled students who work in libraries have been reassigned. The ] survey, . There is a frequently updated list of resources about librarian response to the pandemic at the ] website that provides analysis of librarians' roles during these times.<ref>American Library Association. </ref>
	This is a impercise. What does 'many areas' mean? Compared to the basic classifications listed in my edit, it is unhelpful for readers of Misplaced Pages. Does Rmhermen know what is the basic classification for libraries and librarians? I ask him to provide his source of knowledge on the subject and/or ask that other librarians peer review this dispute. Although you took my edit and sent some of it over to ], it is not the same information. It makes no sense why the basic breakdown should be left out in favor of a passage which readers could guess at anyway. Misplaced Pages should provide more than just superficial information on a topic.
			::] (]) 13:12, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
	:I have never edited the librarian article. That description of library types was not taken from your edit but has been a part of that article since April 8, 2004. The article on library should describe what a library is. The article on librarian should describe what a librarian is. There is no reason to describe what a library is in detail on this page like you wouldn't describe what a tank is on the page on the Battle of El Alamein. ] 20:26, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

			:::Those - and the additional sources provided above by LibraryTea - look like excellent sources that could be incorporated into a much more refined section that is more strongly supported by ]. My primary concern with the previous material was that it made large claims or implications that did not appear to be supported by the handful of sources that were cited.
	4. ''Library technicians (also called assistant librarians, library assistants, or library paraprofessionals) who most often lack the Master's degree, but may perform duties such as searching for items in the library catalog or basic cataloging.''
			:::(I'm not a librarian but I do wonder if it would also be appropriate to mention the growth of controlled digital lending during the pandemic. The most visible instance is the controversial - at least to the publishers who have sued - work at the Internet Archive but my sense is that this has become much more widespread. However, that may be a better fit for a different article...) ] (]) 14:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
			::: Thank you and you are right, the digital lending is a real challenge and the current librarian journals are sorting it out. I will try and synthesize in the future. Librarianship is crazy these days.] (]) 03:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

			I added the COVID-19 section again edited and with the additional sources. I'm still working on it but I didn't want to lose my progress. As to my reasoning for adding digital lending, it was more to highlight how librarians work has moved from physical librarianship to digital work for those of us who were still working inside the library. I added sources to show how one librarian has done this via digital programming. Digital lending is kind of just a part of the entire librarian gig these days. Thank you for your input and guidance. I hope my new edit is more up to par.
	Library Technicians are not the same thing as library assistants or assistant librarians. Library Technicians requires a specialized training, often a two-year college diploma. Assistant librarians, are librarians who work in a relational capacity to full librarians, or belong to a certain occupational category within the library's overall structure. Library assistants are usually trained in-house and only need a undergraduate degree to get hired and commence on the job training. You mislead people about each occupational category unnecessarily.
			--] (]) 20:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
			{{reftalk}}

			== Better, non-military photo of a librarian? ==
	5. The inclusion of Headings makes editing and reading easier for Wiki users, why Rmhermen withdrew them is unwarrented and really lacks commonsense. The article reader benefits from the ability to hyperlink in and out of contents on the same page.

			The main article's photo illustrating a librarian shows a librarian at a military base, "helping an airman". Librarians are not a topic one usually associates with the military, and while the military obviously have librarians, maybe this is not the best or most "general" photo to use? I vote we provide a better photo, of a librarian in a civilian context (I don't have such a photo or I would make the edit myself) ] (]) 23:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
	6. Added material to make it less focused on American concerns, such as the Censorship and Patriot Act section. Misplaced Pages is world-wide and not just for Americans.

			:Thanks for the observation. The photo generally shows a librarian helping a patron and that patron happens to be on a military base. I think the photo helps to usefully illustrate that librarians are everywhere, not just at the stereotypical public library. ] (]) 04:15, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
	I will defend my choices in the future, and have taken some of Rmhermen's edits to heart. Nevertheless, I hardly think an adminstrator has the editorial perogative to 'dumb-down' an article because he feels certain information is 'not needed'. That stance is contrary to the responsibilty and privilege of being an administrator.
	:An administrator's job is adminstrative in nature, all editors are equal in their editing. ] 20:35, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

	--] 07:33, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	==Copyright==
	I removed this line from public libraries:
	"and a less rigorous copyright protocol" What does this mean? Are libraries somewhere given different copyright law? ] 20:53, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
	:Absolutely, most public libraries are granted copyright exemptions for educational purposes. Often public libraries sign a general agreement with copyright collectives, such as Access Copyright in Canada, that is significantly different than private firms. Private libraries, such as law libraries, must pay a higher rate to reproduce copyrighted work; in fact, any library that is part of a for profit organization must pay greater attention to copyright law, since compliance is essential for lawful use. Recently in Canada the Law Society of Upper Canada (Ontario's Bar Association) won a Supreme Court case to be able to reproduce copyrighted material for their members. The fact that the law society was not for profit was the reason why the decision was granted. (CCH vs. Law Society of Upper Canada). Since I don't think this is a major point, and the situation may differ, in some sense, in other jurisdictions, I don't regard the deletion as anything worth rewriting for the article. Plus, there is more than just what I mentioned, maybe a Public Librarian can add details, all I know is that there is a categorical difference in law for public libraries regarding copyright.--] 04:06, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
	::This is certainly not the case in the U.S. ] 17:12, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)
	::: Huh? What authority do you have for saying such a thing? I would simply suggest you investigate this link, which is sponsored by a group of American Libraries for other American Libraries. . Moreover, this article from the ALA website, certainly suggests that there ''IS'' a clear distinction in copyright protocols for libraries, public and academic. (It apparently is called the 'LIBRARY EXEMPTION" in the United States.)Honestly, I hate to be overly contentious, but what authority do you have to make such a blanket, and misleading, statement? Are you a Librarian, if not maybe you should cease editing the page. --] 03:30, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
	:The philosophy of Misplaced Pages is that everyone can edit any page. I understand that many librarians find that lack of "authority" disturbing. No page is limited to editing by a "specialist" in a particular field. If you will read those pages closely, you will see that they apply to libraries and schools and any non-profit organization (like say, Misplaced Pages). There are no special exemptions for libraries in the U.S. And since you asked, in this case, I asked a U.S. librarian. ] 04:35, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
	::Never said libraries were distinct from other non-profit organizations in this matter. However, the article is about libraries, and my point is that some libraries, such as not-for-profit or public libraries, get this exemption. Libraries in businesses do not. You seem to be making a distinction without a difference, and obfuscating my statement in the article and the reason why it was in the article to begin with; namely, that public libraries have "a less rigorous copyright protocol" than other libraries. As far as anyone can edit- of course- again, that's not the point, nor am I suggesting any editor being forcibly prohibited for writing anything. I am simply asking, whether you feel it contributes usefully to the overall quality of Misplaced Pages? My comments are normative. ''Should'' anyone contribute to an article where they have little expertise or knowledge? I am certain people will do as they see fit. --] 07:19, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

	==Archivists as Librarians==
	I do not want to sound peevish or enter into the world of professional rivalry, as I am an archivist myself in the UK, but strictly speaking archivists are not "...librarians that deal with archival materials, such as manuscripts, documents and records.". Many librarians, I am sure, do work with archival material but to say that archivists, as a group, are librarians would be to ignore their own often quite separate identity and development. For instance there are, both in the US and UK, as well as countless other countries, separate professional bodies for Librarians and Archivists (See ] and ] for examples) and many archive institutions exist completely outside any library or librarian context, especially on the national and corporate scene. Furthermore, although degrees in archive management/science are often situated in schools/departments of Librarianship and Information Science, they are generally separate degrees at postgraduate level, reflecting their different intellectual approaches. I realise that different countries have differences on how archives have developed as a concept but that does not change the situation that archivists and librarians are separate groups, whether as professions or not. They may overlap considerably in both their day-to-day work and workplace, I myself work in a library, but to say that they are one and the same is to ignore their individual differences.

	I would go ahead and edit out or change the relevant sentences but I have never edited anyone else’s pages before and I would like to let whoever wrote them to respond beforehand, if they would like to do so. If I do not see any comments to my remarks by the end of January 2005 I will take it as confirmation and go ahead with the changes.
	--] 15:43, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
	:I wouldn't say that they are the same any more than I would say corporate librarians were the same as public librarians or computer database specialists were the same as primary school librarians but they are all types of librarians. I beleive in the U.S. (and in Canada?), there are not separate degrees at the post-graduate level for archivists. Although it varies by school, you get a library degree and may get a specialization in archives or a degree with a specialization in public librarianship or computers, etc. Archivists have separate societies but so do school librarians and public librarians, etc. My spouse's master's in library science with specialization in archives is acceptable as a qualification for her job as a public children's librarian. Perhaps this is not so elsewhwere? ] 17:25, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

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Top picture

The top picture does not reflect a librarian. It's not even a person and would be better in the section about librarians in popular culture (which I also think needs an update). I think the article would be better served by showing librarians doing actual librarianship. I'm looking into more pictures. There's quite a few nice ones of librarians "in action" on commons. I hope others weigh in, otherwise, I'll be bold and pick something out. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree! This photo shows two librarians from San Francisco Public Library "in action" but honestly I'd be happy with anything you pick out. https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Librarians_at_Bay_Area_WikSalon_-_2.jpg Merrilee (talk) 19:04, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

@Merrilee: I do like that picture. I think we could use it in the article (which I think needs a lot of work!). But for the top picture, I really want to see an "action shot" of people in a library doing library stuff, and bonus for diversity! I haven't found the pic I'm "in love with" yet. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 02:13, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

I also just noticed that there's no section about librarians and Misplaced Pages! This article needs major work!!! Megalibrarygirl (talk) 02:15, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

No thanks. ElKevbo (talk) 06:18, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Except that librarians have helped improve Misplaced Pages through #1lib#1ref. It's not navel gazing if it's noteworthy. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:57, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Objections to recent additions

LibraryTea recently added two paragraphs to this article and I have objections to them.

The first paragraph was added in a new "COVID-19" section:

Librarians and other library workers in the United states who weren't stationed inside the library due to library closures were deployed as work from home COVID-19 contact tracers to aid in contacting individuals believed to have contracted Covid-19, encouraging them to self-quarantine, while also educating them about safety during the pandemic.

I object to this material because it implies that many or all "librarians and other library workers" were employed as contact tracers. The supporting reference doesn't support that claim; it only describes a couple of libraries.

The second paragraph was added in the "Popular culture" section:

In popular culture, it has become a trend to say, "Librarian, the original search engine." It was has gained quite a lot of traction in social media and among librarians but some simply loathe the slogan or comparison.

The cited source is a blog post entirely insufficient to support the broad claims made in the paragraph. We need much stronger sourcing to support claims made in an encyclopedia article. ElKevbo (talk) 02:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

According to the CDC Librarians were one of the choices for use as contact tracers. I found other articles that mention Librarians as contact tracers in Denver and Massachusetts but as you can imagine, mentioning librarians becoming contact tracers is probably not at the top of the list for most news articles. The work of librarians has been largely changed as they have been temporarily displaced from their usual jobs and asked to have chosen to volunteer in other areas where their skills could be used. I do agree wording could be edited but I don't think it should be entirely thrown out. I figured the temporary change in work for librarians during the pandemic should be mentioned here that is why I added it.

As for the second edit, it is a phrase often seen in popular librarian gifs. I agree it can be reworded. I have seen it on shirts, bags, and even mugs used by librarians. It was just a fun addition and I figured it fit under pop culture. The Library of Congress even sells a shirt, mug, and journal in their online shop with the quote.

Again I apologize, this is my first time editing and I am only doing this for a class. I'm being graded for editing articles and am still learning to use the interface. It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes. I sincerely thought they were being removed because I was editing them wrong.

--LibraryTea (talk) 03:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

No apologies necessary! This is an active project with tens of thousands of users so it has a rather complex and weird culture and set of norms that aren't always consistent or visible. ElKevbo (talk) 14:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Public Librarians are being asked to help with contact tracing and PPE provision in many jurisdictions. Libraries are being reduced in staffing due to closures and this has been a feature of the current scope of work since the pandemic. Thank you for reviewing and explaining your point of view. I have taught 3 classes since the pandemic began and at least 35% of enrolled students who work in libraries have been reassigned. The Public Library Association survey, Public Libraries Respond to COVID-19: Survey of Response & Activities. There is a frequently updated list of resources about librarian response to the pandemic at the American Library Association website that provides analysis of librarians' roles during these times.

Kmccook (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Those - and the additional sources provided above by LibraryTea - look like excellent sources that could be incorporated into a much more refined section that is more strongly supported by reliable sources. My primary concern with the previous material was that it made large claims or implications that did not appear to be supported by the handful of sources that were cited.

(I'm not a librarian but I do wonder if it would also be appropriate to mention the growth of controlled digital lending during the pandemic. The most visible instance is the controversial - at least to the publishers who have sued - work at the Internet Archive but my sense is that this has become much more widespread. However, that may be a better fit for a different article...) ElKevbo (talk) 14:34, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you and you are right, the digital lending is a real challenge and the current librarian journals are sorting it out. I will try and synthesize in the future. Librarianship is crazy these days.Kmccook (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I added the COVID-19 section again edited and with the additional sources. I'm still working on it but I didn't want to lose my progress. As to my reasoning for adding digital lending, it was more to highlight how librarians work has moved from physical librarianship to digital work for those of us who were still working inside the library. I added sources to show how one librarian has done this via digital programming. Digital lending is kind of just a part of the entire librarian gig these days. Thank you for your input and guidance. I hope my new edit is more up to par. --LibraryTea (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

References

"Librarians Recruited as COVID-19 Hunters". American Libraries Magazine. Retrieved 2020-10-25.
"You would not say, "Astronomers: The Original Telescope"". Litwin Books & Library Juice Press. 2012-11-30. Retrieved 2020-10-27.
"Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)". Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 11 February 2020.
"As States Seek COVID Detectives, Librarians Are Among The Candidates". KUNC. 12 May 2020.
"Contact Tracing and Libraries – MBLC Blog". mblc.state.ma.us.
"Other (Pandemic) Duties as Assigned". American Libraries Magazine.
"Search Engine Librarian Journal". Library of Congress Shop.
American Library Association. Pandemic Preparedness: Resources for Libraries.

Better, non-military photo of a librarian?

The main article's photo illustrating a librarian shows a librarian at a military base, "helping an airman". Librarians are not a topic one usually associates with the military, and while the military obviously have librarians, maybe this is not the best or most "general" photo to use? I vote we provide a better photo, of a librarian in a civilian context (I don't have such a photo or I would make the edit myself) The andf (talk) 23:50, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the observation. The photo generally shows a librarian helping a patron and that patron happens to be on a military base. I think the photo helps to usefully illustrate that librarians are everywhere, not just at the stereotypical public library. Merrilee (talk) 04:15, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

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