Talk:Manhattan Institute for Policy Research: Difference between revisions

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	== Needs restructuring / re-write ==
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	The article as written contains bad structure that leans towards POV, and contains uncited criticism, praise and an off-topic pot-shot.
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	The paragraph:
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	"According to People for the American Way, the Manhattan Institute has attacked minority-focused policies including affirmative action, civil rights initiatives, and immigrant support programs as obstacles to full social integration and to the benefits of the market system. The Institute heavily promotes school vouchers, saying that competition as the best way to improve public schools"
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	Its position near the beginning of the article, without subheading as "Criticism", in and of itself constitutes POV. Also, the entire critique is without citation.
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	Concerning the paragraphs:
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	"The Manhattan Instititute issued a report by Frank Lichtenberg..."

	"Paul Krugman came to the opposite conclusion..."

	Presenting this issue seems to be a setup to deliver the reference to Mr. Krugman's opposition, which is barely topical in that the cited article by Mr. Krugman does not contain a specific critique of the Manhattan Institute on behalf of this issue, or in general. Both these paragraphs would be more at home in an article about VA medical care issues.

	The Manhattan Institute's position on issues would be better articulated in an "Issues & Positions" subheading, and refutations of the Manhattan Institute on the basis of its positions should be in a "Criticisms" section, and should contain only articles that make specific reference to the Manhattan Institute and/or its positions, not just any old article that happens to take an opposing view on an issue. Otherwise this article becomes a battle of the POVs about the issues addressed by the Manhattan Institute.

	The paragraph containing the Guiliani quote is just plain sloppy-- the quote is lifted right off the marketing barkers of the City Journal's home page, where it is also unsourced. The NYTimes quote that ends this paragraph needs a citation.

	] 21:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

	Agreed on all counts. I don't really have time to take on the renovation of this page at the moment. Are you going to be making major changes? ] 01:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

	I'm happy to give it a try within the next week to 10 days. Does this sound Ok?
	] 01:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

	==Vandalism==
	This is why I'm reverting ] edit:
	*MI had nothing to do with ''The Bell Curve''. The Bell Curve was written in 1994. Murray left MI in 1990, precisely because MI support his research in this area, as even this .
	*There is no evidence that "Fixing Broken Windows" says blacks are intellectually inferior.
	*"Predominantly white and male" may be true, but it is original research, contrary to Misplaced Pages standards. It's also true for Brookings, Center for American Progress, ATLA, MoveOn, and the Democratic Party members of the Senate. Why single out MI?
	*MI is so affiliated with the Republican Party that its ] publicly came out against Bush in the last election.
	*All of the edits are POV.
	*All of the claims are uncited.
	*WL added an extraneous bracket and capitalization.
	] 14:51, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

	== Manhattan Institute for Psychoanalysis ==		== Manhattan Institute for Psychoanalysis ==
Line 46:		Line 20:
	--cbelz		--cbelz

	== ~~Right~~ ~~Wing?~~ ==		== General bias ==
			Former section title: Energy and environment. Section renamed to reflect the broader discussion here, and the broader work-to-be-done.
	I think calling something "Right Wing" rather than simply conservative has PoV issues. That aside, MI is generally known for concentrating on practical solutions to policy problems, rather than doctrinaire ideological positions. Calling MI "free-market" might be more accurate and fair. ] 04:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

	:I agree with "free-market". I don't think "right wing" belongs because it's POV, imprecise and un-encyclopedic. What does "right wing" mean? Can you give a source for a definition? I might accept "conservative", but that's imprecise too. ] 01:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

	:Are Floyd Flake, Herman Badillo, or John McWhorter "right wing"? It just doesn't make sense here. ] 04:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

	== Funding sources ==

	], why did you remove my section on funding sources? ] 01:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

	That's a New York, NY IP address. Might be somebody from the Institute who doesn't want it to be public, or an MI supporter or something. Pure conjecture on my part I suppose. To answer your unstated question (judging by this talk page's history), I didn't pull it. I'd have no problem with funding sources being in the article. To me that's not a PoV issue, although I know it's been reverted by others in the past. ] 06:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

	:I had the same conjecture, and I did the same whois search. (I originally thought from my misreading of the article history that it was deleted in your revision; my mistake.) I think it's significant, since it tells you where they're coming from in a more NPOV way than "conservative" or "free-market". I think it's POV to ''not'' include it. I'll restore it. ] 20:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

	Hello, all. I am 66.234.233.50. Nothing personal. Mostly a sourcing issue. I think given the clear agenda of "sourcewatch", it becomes a PoV issue. At least in my book. I mean, geez, why not go all the way and use Media Matters as a source? Misplaced Pages sure presents some interesting challenges...

	:I used Sourcewatch because (1) I've never heard of Sourcewatch being inaccurate (2) they cited their source (3) The Manhattan Institute doesn't disclose their financial sources, even though they're a 501(c)(3) organization (4) I've seen similar figures in a law journal article, although I can't find the citation right now (5) If I ever hear of the Manhattan Institute or anyone else challenging those statements, I will add it to the entry, and I invite you or anyone else to do so -- and of course you must follow the Misplaced Pages rules of providing a reliable source.

	:Thank you for thinking skeptically.

	:P.S. the custom here is to sign your postings with 4 tildes <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> ] 21:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

	== Health Care ==

	Scharferimage, I saw a letter by Zycher on the Wall Street Journal editorial page, so I looked him up online. I thought this discussion of health policies by 2 of the Manattan Institute's scholars on health care, specifically Medicare Part D, was important and a good way to describe the Manhattan Institute's policies by showing what they do in a specific case, rather than applying subjective adjectives like "right wing" or "conservative". If they advocate free-market solutions, this is what that idea means in its specific application.

	I've read a lot of Manhattan Institute articles and reports, and this is typical of what they do, in that it is a free-market approach, they sponsored research, they published editorials, etc. People who agree with this position should know the Manhattan Institute's reasons for supporting this position. People who disagree with them should also know how the Manhattan Institute disagrees with them.

	Could you state exactly what your objection is to this? I would agree that we should expand it with more examples of other Manhattan Institute policies, but I don't understand why you want to delete it entirely. ] 15:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

	:I don't see the point in having the Krugman rebuttal in at the end in an article this short, but that aside I think that quoting a single paper by two scholars at what is by no means the most visible policy tank at MI doesn't adequately represent the views of the Institute as a whole. I plan on greatly expanding this article within a month or so, once I have some damn time, but I suppose until then there's really no point in bickering about this. Can we agree on excluding the Krugman rebuttal but keeping in the details of the Part D policy paper? ] 17:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

	::I think Krugman's rebuttal is necessary to keep the entry NPOV, which according to ] is "absolute and non-negotiable." The Manhattan Institute, which is funded by the industry, has a right to make free-market and pro-industry arguments, but people who want to know about the Manhattan Institute would want to know both sides of the argument so that they can make up their own minds. That's the point in having the Krugman rebuttal. Do you agree with that? ] 18:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

	::I don't think NPOV requires that sort of in-article rebuttal. As long as it's clear that the view expressed is an opinion rather than fact, you shouldn't have to add more. Even if you think a rebuttal of some kind is necessary, your Krugman paragraph is about 50% as long as the view being rebutted, which seems excessive. Could we compromise with something like, "Some scholars, Paul Krugman most notably, have disputed Zycher and Lichtenberg's findings."? ] 20:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

	:::An in-article rebuttal is the essence of ].

	:::It takes some length to explain the Manhattan Institute's position on something as complicated as Medicare Part D. Otherwise, all you have is a bullet-point list asserting their positions. To give both points of view, you have to <i>give</i> both points of view -- you can't just dismiss the other POV with "Some scholars, like Paul Krugman, disagree." Lichtenberg claims, based on indirect extrapolations that haven't been published in an academic journal, that patients have died as a result of the VA's policies. It would be dishonest to the reader not to tell them that other studies find that patients have not died as Lichtenberg claims. That's both POVs. And Krugman is a <i>significant</i> POV.

	:::That's what the WSJ does. They printed a letter by Marcia Angell about drug regulation, and then they printed a rebuttal from Zycher. That's the way newspapers, academic publications, medical publications, legal writing, and any other responsible writing works.

	:::If you filled up a page describing Manhattan Institute without describing their positions, it wouldn't tell anything meaningful about the Manhattan Institute. If you filled it up describing their positions without also giving the other POV, it would be propaganda or advertising ] which is also prohibited on Misplaced Pages. And ] is "absolute and non-negotiable." ] 20:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

			There seems to be biased language in this section (as well as in other sections of the article). Specifically, it includes the following sentence: "Bryce has argued at length that, even with exorbitant government subsidies, renewable energy sources are simply inadequate to meet America's energy needs." The use of the word exorbitant in this context implies that large government subsidies are unreasonable, which is not a neutral position. Robert Bryce may believe that large subsidies are exorbitant, but it is not clear from the context here that this is merely his opinion. The phrase "simply inadequate" could also be edited to remove the word "simply" in order to appear more neutral. <br>
	:::Point taken on the NPOV issues, I think you're right on the substantive issues as they apply to this article. However, I'm still deeply uneasy with the weight given to this particular dispute within the article here. About half the text of the article is now taken up by this Zycher-Krugman dispute, which really has little bearing on the Manhattan Institute as an organization. Segmenting it under a "Center for Medical Policy" subheading, with a view towards further articulating the article by filling in details about policy suggestions coming out of all of MI's subsidiary Centers might be an effective way of resolving this dispute. Not sure about the specific application, but isn't devoting half of the article on MI to one particular policy dispute out of potentially dozens or hundreds an Undue Weight infringement? ] 02:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
			This sentence is even more biased: "In keeping with its commitment to free-market economic principles, the institute is opposed to high-cost, inefficient government mandates and subsidies." It reads as like a statement from the organization itself rather than a neutral party. It is completely unclear what kind of mandates or subsidies should be considered high-cost or inefficient, and seems to take the inefficiency of such things for granted.<br>
			Elsewhere, Bill Gates is quoted praising the book ''The Bottomless Well'' by Institute senior fellows Peter Huber and Mark Mills. The citation for this links to an article put out by the Manhattan Institute themselves. I have not been able to find a more neutral source confirming this quote. In any case, Gates's opinion on the book doesn't seem relevant to the article, and its inclusion is likely to bias the reader. ] (]) 04:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

			:Statements about climate change are also presented in a way that is not compliant with policy. Secondary reliable sources about the institute should be used and summarized rather than primary advocacy material (], ]). I tagged a source as such and the article has a relevant neutrality tag. I don't have the time to work on this article at current time and invite anyone interested to help per ]. Thanks, —]] – 02:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
	::::The solution to giving undue weight to one particular policy is to add other policies. I think that would be a good way to organize it. We don't have to (and can't) include every area the Manhattan Institute works in, just a representative sampling. You're right about the subheads. ] 03:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

			::I took a stab at being bold and deleted the Cass primary-source quote, replacing it with material from a New York Times story that describes his and the institute's position on climate science. ] (]) 00:58, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
	::::Do you want to start subheads or should I? You're probably the more experienced editor here. Should we make subheads for each MI center, and just list all unexpanded ones as sub-stubs? What's the convention here? ] 03:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
			:::Thanks, I just removed ] from Lesser that only cited the advocacy org. I'm not sure if it's usable, but an independent source mentioning Lesser's views is https://www.energyandpolicy.org/lesser-climate-denier-attacks-electric-vehicles/ ; one about Cass is https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/climate/pruitt-epa-red-blue-team-debate-emails.html that is probably usable. I have found Greenpeace reports listing the institute as Exxon and Koch funded like https://www.eenews.net/assets/2019/03/26/document_cw_01.pdf https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Global/usa/report/2010/3/koch-industries-secretly-fund.pdf that I'm not sure are usable. —]] – 15:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
			:I just deleted a completely unsourced paragraph, with unsourced promotional language. It seems pretty clear this article has been influenced by policy-violating ] and/or ] editing. I endorse the NPOV banner, and I endorse anyone who wants to ]ly edit the article to be ]. ] (]) 14:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
			*I've made an effort to clean the article up. {{ping\|Alsee}}, {{ping\|PaleoNeonate}}, {{ping\|Jackk225}}: Do you think it's better now? Good enough to remove the tag? Or are there still issues? Even with a lot of this cleanup, it feels like the article spends a ''lot'' of time trying to convince the reader how important the Manhattan Institutes' fellows are (there's probably still some stuff about their activities outside the Manhattan Institute that could stand to be cleaned up.) --] (]) 04:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
			*:@] I didn't review quite all of it, but everything I that did review was great work.
			*:I removed the Neutrality tag. I'm seeing about 13 citation neededs. I don't know if you want to make the effort to come back to this article in maybe one-to-six months, but much of that tagged content can probably be nuked if it stays unsourced. Or maybe some random editor will read this months (or years) from now, in which case I invite that future <s>victim</s>''volunteer'' to hack away at it. ] (]) 09:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
			::It's still far from an ideal article of course, but these were obvious improvements. Thanks, —]] – 21:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

			== Culture War Issues ==
	:::::You can do it. Be my guest. Just make a subhead for the health center, or for "Health policy". But don't make subheads for sections that aren't written yet. ] 16:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

			The Manhattan Institute has recently gained new prominence after Chris Rufo, one of its Senior Fellows, has started high-profile campaigns about Critical Race Theory and more recently alleged links between Disney and pedophila. Articles about these topics have been published in City Journal as well. Should this be added in the article as a separate header, possible as a new phase in the Institute's development? Happy to provide links if that would be helpful.
	:::::Okay, I'll get on it within a day or so. ] 17:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
			] (]) 15:48, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

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Manhattan Institute for Psychoanalysis

In order to distinguish the Manhattan Institute from the Manhattan Institute for Psychoanalysis (www.manhattanpsychoanalysis.com) should I first create a listing for the organization? After which we can add redirectors from the MI listing and from the MIP listing that clarify the different organizations?

--cbelz

General bias

Former section title: Energy and environment. Section renamed to reflect the broader discussion here, and the broader work-to-be-done.

There seems to be biased language in this section (as well as in other sections of the article). Specifically, it includes the following sentence: "Bryce has argued at length that, even with exorbitant government subsidies, renewable energy sources are simply inadequate to meet America's energy needs." The use of the word exorbitant in this context implies that large government subsidies are unreasonable, which is not a neutral position. Robert Bryce may believe that large subsidies are exorbitant, but it is not clear from the context here that this is merely his opinion. The phrase "simply inadequate" could also be edited to remove the word "simply" in order to appear more neutral.
This sentence is even more biased: "In keeping with its commitment to free-market economic principles, the institute is opposed to high-cost, inefficient government mandates and subsidies." It reads as like a statement from the organization itself rather than a neutral party. It is completely unclear what kind of mandates or subsidies should be considered high-cost or inefficient, and seems to take the inefficiency of such things for granted.
Elsewhere, Bill Gates is quoted praising the book The Bottomless Well by Institute senior fellows Peter Huber and Mark Mills. The citation for this links to an article put out by the Manhattan Institute themselves. I have not been able to find a more neutral source confirming this quote. In any case, Gates's opinion on the book doesn't seem relevant to the article, and its inclusion is likely to bias the reader. Jackk225 (talk) 04:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Statements about climate change are also presented in a way that is not compliant with policy. Secondary reliable sources about the institute should be used and summarized rather than primary advocacy material (WP:PRIMARY, WP:ABOUTSELF). I tagged a source as such and the article has a relevant neutrality tag. I don't have the time to work on this article at current time and invite anyone interested to help per WP:BOLD. Thanks, —Paleo Neonate – 02:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I took a stab at being bold and deleted the Cass primary-source quote, replacing it with material from a New York Times story that describes his and the institute's position on climate science. 24.163.84.190 (talk) 00:58, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I just removed this from Lesser that only cited the advocacy org. I'm not sure if it's usable, but an independent source mentioning Lesser's views is https://www.energyandpolicy.org/lesser-climate-denier-attacks-electric-vehicles/ ; one about Cass is https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/climate/pruitt-epa-red-blue-team-debate-emails.html that is probably usable. I have found Greenpeace reports listing the institute as Exxon and Koch funded like https://www.eenews.net/assets/2019/03/26/document_cw_01.pdf https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Global/usa/report/2010/3/koch-industries-secretly-fund.pdf that I'm not sure are usable. —Paleo Neonate – 15:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

I just deleted a completely unsourced paragraph, with unsourced promotional language. It seems pretty clear this article has been influenced by policy-violating WP:COI and/or WP:PAID editing. I endorse the NPOV banner, and I endorse anyone who wants to WP:Boldly edit the article to be more neutral. Alsee (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I've made an effort to clean the article up. @Alsee:, @PaleoNeonate:, @Jackk225:: Do you think it's better now? Good enough to remove the tag? Or are there still issues? Even with a lot of this cleanup, it feels like the article spends a lot of time trying to convince the reader how important the Manhattan Institutes' fellows are (there's probably still some stuff about their activities outside the Manhattan Institute that could stand to be cleaned up.) --Aquillion (talk) 04:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
@Aquillion I didn't review quite all of it, but everything I that did review was great work.

I removed the Neutrality tag. I'm seeing about 13 citation neededs. I don't know if you want to make the effort to come back to this article in maybe one-to-six months, but much of that tagged content can probably be nuked if it stays unsourced. Or maybe some random editor will read this months (or years) from now, in which case I invite that future ~~victim~~volunteer to hack away at it. Alsee (talk) 09:01, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

It's still far from an ideal article of course, but these were obvious improvements. Thanks, —Paleo Neonate – 21:13, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Culture War Issues

The Manhattan Institute has recently gained new prominence after Chris Rufo, one of its Senior Fellows, has started high-profile campaigns about Critical Race Theory and more recently alleged links between Disney and pedophila. Articles about these topics have been published in City Journal as well. Should this be added in the article as a separate header, possible as a new phase in the Institute's development? Happy to provide links if that would be helpful. LaurelhurstLiberal (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

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