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Revision as of 21:49, 4 January 2013 editKiefer.Wolfowitz (talk | contribs)39,688 edits →Gauges for strings: 25.5 inches scale for Patt, from Peterson. Also Kirkeby's guitar has 25.5 inches for Turbulence← Previous edit Latest revision as of 01:42, 10 March 2024 edit undoHarryboyles (talk | contribs)Administrators154,665 editsm →top: removing unsupported bio-related parameters in {{WikiProject Guitarists}}Tag: AWB 
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⚫ {{GA nominee|10:35, 5 September 2012 (UTC)|nominator=<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small>|page=1|subtopic=Music|status=2ndopinion|note=}}
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|action1link=Talk:Major thirds tuning/GA1
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|dykdate=30 June 2012 |dykdate=30 June 2012
|dykentry=... that the ]{{'s}} ] D-G-B-D-G-B-D approximates the ''']''' D#-G-B-D#-G-B-D#? |dykentry=... that the ]'s D-G-B-D-G-B-D tuning ''(illustrated)'' approximates the ''']''' D{{music|sharp}}-G-B-D{{music|sharp}}-G-B-D{{music|sharp}}?
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⚫ }}
|topic=music
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
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{{American English}} {{American English}}
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==Requested move== ==Requested move==
{{hat|Resolved}}
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' :''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. ''
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] → ] – No source in the article uses "all-thirds" as a description for the tuning. --] 15:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC) ] → ] – No source in the article uses "all-thirds" as a description for the tuning. --] 15:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
:Seems like a good idea. All-thirds tuning was named to be similar with the NPOV all-fourths, all-fifths tuning (not perfect fourths and fifths). However, since there is a "minor thirds tuning" (in theory), "all-thirds" could be ambiguous. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 21:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC) :Seems like a good idea. All-thirds tuning was named to be similar with the NPOV all-fourths, all-fifths tuning (not perfect fourths and fifths). However, since there is a "minor thirds tuning" (in theory), "all-thirds" could be ambiguous. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 21:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom -->
{{hab}}


== ] == == ] ==
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The ] still needs to be reviewed. The ] still needs to be reviewed.


Thanks! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 17:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC) Thanks! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 17:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
::Thanks to the reviewers. The hook appeared, and is recorded<s> at the top of this page</s> next. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 12:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC) ::Thanks to the reviewers. The hook appeared, and is recorded<s> at the top of this page</s> next. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 12:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

{{dyktalk|30 June|2012|entry=... that the ]'s D-G-B-D-G-B-D tuning ''(illustrated)'' approximates the ''']''' D#-G-B-D#-G-B-D#?}}


=="Major thirds tuning" or "Major-thirds tuning"?== =="Major thirds tuning" or "Major-thirds tuning"?==
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;Major-thirds tuning > major thirds tuning ;Major-thirds tuning > major thirds tuning
:The adjective "major" modifies the noun "thirds". The modifier "major-third" modifies "tuning". WP:MOS and standard English suggest that the hyphen prevents ambiguity, particularly the mis-reading that "major" and "thirds" separately modify the noun "tuning". :The adjective "major" modifies the noun "thirds". The modifier "major-third" modifies "tuning". WP:MOS and standard English suggest that the hyphen prevents ambiguity, particularly the mis-reading that "major" and "thirds" separately modify the noun "tuning".
:I assume that Sarek chose the non-hyphenated form for simplicity. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 12:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC) :I assume that Sarek chose the non-hyphenated form for simplicity. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 12:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


== Chord diagrams == == Chord diagrams ==
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File:Dm chord for guitar (5th position 2nd inversion).png|b(Major)7 File:Dm chord for guitar (5th position 2nd inversion).png|b(Major)7
</gallery> </gallery>
Would that some angel redraw them for consistency! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 00:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Would that some angel redraw them for consistency! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 00:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


Thanks Kiefer for your comment on my page, you encouraged me to lift it up a bit! Thanks Kiefer for your comment on my page, you encouraged me to lift it up a bit!
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:Trying TuxGuitar, I could create a diagram of the score (including the unwanted staff/stave). How do I export just the chord-diagram? :Trying TuxGuitar, I could create a diagram of the score (including the unwanted staff/stave). How do I export just the chord-diagram?
:<small>It would be great to add a reference to your website in the text (rather than merely in the see also section): Let me know if any academics or music magazines etc. refer to your website, please. (A reliable source citing a website increases its reliability.) If you have an academic connection, or write in refereed publications, then of course your site would be reliable, also. To avoid being declared nonreliable (along with Wikopedia), it is best not to cite Misplaced Pages as a reference, but only list it as suggested further reading.</small> :<small>It would be great to add a reference to your website in the text (rather than merely in the see also section): Let me know if any academics or music magazines etc. refer to your website, please. (A reliable source citing a website increases its reliability.) If you have an academic connection, or write in refereed publications, then of course your site would be reliable, also. To avoid being declared nonreliable (along with Wikopedia), it is best not to cite Misplaced Pages as a reference, but only list it as suggested further reading.</small>
:Best regards, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 13:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC) :Best regards, <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 13:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


:::Hi Kiefer, :::Hi Kiefer,
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::::<s>I shall look around for LaTeX resources, also.</s>For editors fluent in ], the enables the one-line typsetting of guitar chord-diagrams in the form of pdf files. (I recommend the TexMakerX package.) ::::<s>I shall look around for LaTeX resources, also.</s>For editors fluent in ], the enables the one-line typsetting of guitar chord-diagrams in the form of pdf files. (I recommend the TexMakerX package.)
::::<small>(I reformatted your response. I'd be happy to undo this reformatting if you like.)</small> ::::<small>(I reformatted your response. I'd be happy to undo this reformatting if you like.)</small>
::::Thanks again! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 10:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC) ::::Thanks again! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 10:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


It is possible to import images form pdf files. It is possible to import images form pdf files.
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</blockquote> </blockquote>


Thus, it seems simplest for me to create one PDF file with the images alone on individual pages. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 13:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Thus, it seems simplest for me to create one PDF file with the images alone on individual pages. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 13:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


]<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC) ]<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


====GIMP==== ====GIMP====
It was easy to export snapshots from PDF to PNG format, using the open-source GIMP software. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 17:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC) It was easy to export snapshots from PDF to PNG format, using the open-source GIMP software. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 17:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)


{{hab}} {{hab}}
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! '''Major-thirds tuning''' ('''M3''') || G{{music|sharp}}=A{{music|flat}}!! E !! C !! G{{music|sharp}}=A{{music|flat}}!! E !! C !! G{{music|sharp}}=A{{music|flat}}||E||C ! '''Major-thirds tuning''' ('''M3''') || G{{music|sharp}}=A{{music|flat}}!! E !! C !! G{{music|sharp}}=A{{music|flat}}!! E !! C !! G{{music|sharp}}=A{{music|flat}}||E||C
|- |-
|'''M3''' ] (24 5/8 inches)< ref> Usually 24 5/8 inches; sometimes 24 1/8 or 23 9/16 (Peterson, 2002, p. 43).</ref> || .007-8<ref name="DA">D'Addario</ref>|| .010<ref name="DA"/> || .013p<ref name="DA"/>|| .022w<ref name="EN"> </ref> || .026w<ref name="EN"/> || .032w<ref name="EN"/> || .042w<ref name="EN"/>|| .052<ref name="EN"/>|| |'''M3''' ] (24&nbsp;5/8 inches)<ref>Usually 24&nbsp;5/8 inches; sometimes 24&nbsp;1/8 or 23&nbsp;9/16 (Peterson, 2002, p. 43).</ref>|| .007-8<ref name="DA">D'Addario</ref>|| .010<ref name="DA"/> || .013p<ref name="DA"/>|| .022w<ref name="EN"> </ref> || .026w<ref name="EN"/> || .032w<ref name="EN"/> || .042w<ref name="EN"/>|| .052<ref name="EN"/>||
|- |-
|'''M3''' ()|| || .010p|| .013p || .020w || .028w || .036w || .044w||.052w|| |'''M3''' ()|| || .010p|| .013p || .020w || .028w || .036w || .044w||.052w||
|- |-
|'''M3''' ] (, )|| || .010p|| .0135p || .022w || .028w || .035w || .044w||.055-6w||] (or 0.064 by calculator) |'''M3''' ] (, )|| || .010p|| .0135p || .022w || .028w || .035w || .044w||.055-.056w||] (or 0.064 by calculator)
|- |-
| '''Gypsy tuning'''|| ?||?|| ? || ? || ? || ? || ?||?|| | '''Gypsy tuning'''|| ?||?|| ? || ? || ? || ? || ?||?||
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|} |}
<references/> <references/>
::'''This is good information''', and I suggest that this chart, or a variation thereof, be included in the article.

::I will point out that 7-string "open G tuning", "Russian guitar tuning", and "gypsy tuning" are identical -- they're three different names for the same thing. From low to high: D2, G2, B2, D3, G3, B3, D4.

::Also, that string-instrument tunings, and string gauges, are most commonly given from low-pitched string to high-pitched string, a convention which is followed in most Misplaced Pages articles on stringed instruments -- you have these reversed in the chart.
::] (]) 19:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

===Gypsy-strings?===
Can anybody explain why "Gypsy strings" (from e.g. D'Addario) suit ]?

(The Russian guitar's open-G tuning is major-thirds "on average", and so I list its gauges. It may sometimes be called a gypsy tuning. Is it related to Django's?)

⚫ <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 22:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

== Good article ==

{{tlf|GA|05:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)|topic=Music|page=1|oldid=535313217}}

== Reliable sources ==

]. Discussions of M3 tuning that are not focused on improving this article may occur at a jazz-guitarist newsgroup:
*
While not ], its discussions mentioned this article, and so may suggest ideas for improvements. Its discussions also mention reliable sources.

⚫ Thanks! <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 10:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

==Needs Balance==
This is an interesting and informative article, but it only mentions the presumed ''advantages'' of playing in major-thirds tuning. It would be more encyclopedic to also make some mention of the ''disadvantages'' of the tuning. For example,
* M3 tuning decreases the overall range of the guitar (this is why Patt eventually resorted to 7- and 8- string instruments, to regain that lost range)
* M3 simplifies ''closed'' voicing, but it makes certain common ''open'' voicings more difficult, or even impossible
* M3 facilitates moving 3- and 4-note chords up or down an octave, but it makes the fingerings for 5- and 6-note multi-octave chords more complex and awkward.

This is not to say that the tuning is "better" or "worse" than standard, or any other tuning. But it '''is''' different, and it's important to note the significant differences, both pro and con. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120725085754/http://v3p0.m3guitar.com/html/fretmaps_chords_major.html to http://v3p0.m3guitar.com/html/fretmaps_chords_major.html
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130208010431/http://v3p0.m3guitar.com/html/fretmaps_chords_dominant.html to http://v3p0.m3guitar.com/html/fretmaps_chords_dominant.html
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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 16:05, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
⚫ Can anybody explain why "]" (from e.g. D'Addario) suit ]? (Also an influence on gypsy music, the Russian guitar's tuning is major-thirds "on average", and so I list its gauges.) <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 22:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 01:42, 10 March 2024

Good articleMajor thirds tuning has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
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January 28, 2013Good article nomineeListed
Did You KnowA fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on June 30, 2012.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Russian guitar's D-G-B-D-G-B-D tuning (illustrated) approximates the major-thirds tuning D♯-G-B-D♯-G-B-D♯?
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
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Requested move

Resolved
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved early per primary editor's request. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


All-thirds tuning → Major thirds tuning – No source in the article uses "all-thirds" as a description for the tuning. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea. All-thirds tuning was named to be similar with the NPOV all-fourths, all-fifths tuning (not perfect fourths and fifths). However, since there is a "minor thirds tuning" (in theory), "all-thirds" could be ambiguous. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Template:Did you know nominations/Major thirds tuning

The DYK nomination still needs to be reviewed.

Thanks! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to the reviewers. The hook appeared, and is recorded at the top of this page next. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

"Major thirds tuning" or "Major-thirds tuning"?

The article is titled "major third tuning" but the introduction reads "major-thirds tuning". Which one should it be? Hyacinth (talk) 09:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Major-thirds tuning > major thirds tuning
The adjective "major" modifies the noun "thirds". The modifier "major-third" modifies "tuning". WP:MOS and standard English suggest that the hyphen prevents ambiguity, particularly the mis-reading that "major" and "thirds" separately modify the noun "tuning".
I assume that Sarek chose the non-hyphenated form for simplicity. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Chord diagrams

Resolved
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm going to deposit some files from the Wikimedia foundation here. These can be used for major-thirds exposition. My labeling assumes the (low)

C-E-G♯-c-e-g♯

tuning, to avoid the D#.

  • b Minor b Minor
  • G Major G Major
  • b(Major)7 b(Major)7

Would that some angel redraw them for consistency! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Kiefer for your comment on my page, you encouraged me to lift it up a bit! I deposited 2 files as requested:

I used TuxGuitar to create them. Cheers --Alexandre Oberlin (talk) 13:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much Alexandre!
You really drew great diagrams. Every line adds information, and the proportions increase visibility. You also have avoided adding labels to the diagrams, which follows recommended practice at Misplaced Pages, and so allows the diagrams to be reused for chords on many more tunings!
Trying TuxGuitar, I could create a diagram of the score (including the unwanted staff/stave). How do I export just the chord-diagram?
It would be great to add a reference to your website in the text (rather than merely in the see also section): Let me know if any academics or music magazines etc. refer to your website, please. (A reliable source citing a website increases its reliability.) If you have an academic connection, or write in refereed publications, then of course your site would be reliable, also. To avoid being declared nonreliable (along with Wikopedia), it is best not to cite Misplaced Pages as a reference, but only list it as suggested further reading.
Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi Kiefer,
I cropped 1x1 pixels to remove lines top and left so that the diagrams appear clean on white background. I also reset the graphic’s page information to ease further edition on it (I use ImageMagick).
I just composed the chords in TuxGuitar in Beat / Chord / Insert chord and manually cropped the screenshot.
For the referrers, I’ll watch ;-)
Cheers,
--Alexandre Oberlin (talk) 09:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

LaTeX and PDF

Hi Alexandre!
That explains my difficulties. I had hoped that it would be less work. I shall look at ImageMagick! :)
I shall look around for LaTeX resources, also.For editors fluent in LaTeX, the gchords package enables the one-line typsetting of guitar chord-diagrams in the form of pdf files. (I recommend the TexMakerX package.)
(I reformatted your response. I'd be happy to undo this reformatting if you like.)
Thanks again! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It is possible to import images form pdf files. I quote from Misplaced Pages's tutorial on images:

This is page 2

Images can be excerpted from ... PDF files, with an optional page parameter. For example:

]

Thus, it seems simplest for me to create one PDF file with the images alone on individual pages. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

File:Major thirds tuning guitar chords.pdf
page=2
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:05, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

GIMP

It was easy to export snapshots from PDF to PNG format, using the open-source GIMP software. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:26, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Gauges for strings

I record suggested string gauges, two by reliable sources (and one by me, trivially calculating the correct tensions for my Ovation's recommendations for lightest strings), (c.f. a blog and D'Addario).

Major-thirds tuning (M3) G♯=A♭ E C G♯=A♭ E C G♯=A♭ E C
M3 Ralph Patt (24 5/8 inches) .007-8 .010 .013p .022w .026w .032w .042w .052
M3 Ole Kirkeby (round wound) (25.5 inches) .010p .013p .020w .028w .036w .044w .052w
M3 KW (Light, 25.25 inches) .008-9 .010p .0135p .022w .028w .035w .044w .055-.056w 0.052-0.60 (or 0.064 by calculator)
Gypsy tuning ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Gypsy light .010p .014p .023w .026w .034w .044w
Gypsy medium .011p .015p .024w .028w .035w .045w
Open-G DBG-DBG-D D B G D B G D
Russian 7-string .012 .014 .019 .024 .030 .039 .051
  1. Usually 24 5/8 inches; sometimes 24 1/8 or 23 9/16 (Peterson, 2002, p. 43).
  2. ^ D'Addario
  3. ^ Elixer Nanoweb, e.g. Custom Lights
This is good information, and I suggest that this chart, or a variation thereof, be included in the article.
I will point out that 7-string "open G tuning", "Russian guitar tuning", and "gypsy tuning" are identical -- they're three different names for the same thing. From low to high: D2, G2, B2, D3, G3, B3, D4.
Also, that string-instrument tunings, and string gauges, are most commonly given from low-pitched string to high-pitched string, a convention which is followed in most Misplaced Pages articles on stringed instruments -- you have these reversed in the chart.
74.95.43.249 (talk) 19:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Gypsy-strings?

Can anybody explain why "Gypsy strings" (from e.g. D'Addario) suit major-thirds tuning?

(The Russian guitar's open-G tuning is major-thirds "on average", and so I list its gauges. It may sometimes be called a gypsy tuning. Is it related to Django's?)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Good article

{{GA|05:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)}}

Reliable sources

Misplaced Pages is not a forum. Discussions of M3 tuning that are not focused on improving this article may occur at a jazz-guitarist newsgroup:

While not reliable source, its discussions mentioned this article, and so may suggest ideas for improvements. Its discussions also mention reliable sources.

Thanks! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Needs Balance

This is an interesting and informative article, but it only mentions the presumed advantages of playing in major-thirds tuning. It would be more encyclopedic to also make some mention of the disadvantages of the tuning. For example,

  • M3 tuning decreases the overall range of the guitar (this is why Patt eventually resorted to 7- and 8- string instruments, to regain that lost range)
  • M3 simplifies closed voicing, but it makes certain common open voicings more difficult, or even impossible
  • M3 facilitates moving 3- and 4-note chords up or down an octave, but it makes the fingerings for 5- and 6-note multi-octave chords more complex and awkward.

This is not to say that the tuning is "better" or "worse" than standard, or any other tuning. But it is different, and it's important to note the significant differences, both pro and con. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

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