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== Mahayoga is not Dzogchen ==

{{yo|Joshua Jonathan}}, I don't know how you got the idea that Mahayoga is Dzogchen.]<sup>]</sup> 01:03, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
:Yo? That's a new tag for me. Anyway: Berzin uses the term in his description of the stages of practice, and Sam van Schaik mentions Atiyoga as part of Mahayoga, at the earliest developmental stage of Dzogchen:
::''"So when did Atiyoga become a vehicle? Moving on to the 10th century, there are a couple of texts from Dunhuang which do set out early versions of the nine vehicle system. Yet even here, though we see the beginnings of the standard distinctions between Mahāyoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga, these three are not yet called ‘vehicles’. The texts carry on presenting Anuyoga and Atiyoga as modes of Mahāyoga practice, without any specific content of their own." ''
⚫ :I'm working on it; encyclopedic entries by Buswell & Lopez and by Germano have yet to be incorporated, and a longer text by Sam van Schaik, ''. Best regards, ] -] 05:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
:::Forget about the "earliest developmental stage". Mahayoga is not Dzogchen.]<sup>]</sup> 16:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
:::: Extremely incorrect, Mahayoga is withing Dzogchen . ] (]) 21:05, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

== Traditional accounts ==

⚫ From what I've seen so far, most books will ''only'' tell the traditional account. It's part of the story too, isn't it? And there's plenty of the other side, the ''historical'' story. NB: the traditional accoubts are also being mentioned by the serious sources. ] -] 20:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
:But later traditional accounts obscure earlier traditional accounts. Its better left unsaid.]<sup>]</sup> 07:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
::Good point, very good point. Let me think over it, for one or two days, okay? Best regards, ] -] 07:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

::: Traditional accounts are part of the historical analysis context and often are key to proper symbology. How the tradition evolves and disperses is only obscured by view. ] (]) 21:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

== Respects and Warning ==

My experiences with this tradition typically begins with warnings and respect for secrecy, as well as the emphasizing importance of living beings in pursuing it's practice This article would be wise include sourced content in this regard. ] (]) 21:23, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


== Lead changes == == Lead changes ==
Line 48: Line 25:
I propose that ] be merged into ]/]. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. ] (]) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC) I propose that ] be merged into ]/]. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. ] (]) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)


* '''Support''' ] -] 15:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC) * '''Support''' ] -] 15:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
* '''Yes''' it happened here too in a stub without reference. ] (]) 02:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC) * '''Yes''' it happened here too in a stub without reference. ] (]) 02:07, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
* '''Support'''. This seems good and useful. Yes. Best, ] (]) 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC) * '''Support'''. This seems good and useful. Yes. Best, ] (]) 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
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Hi Dzogchen editors, Hi Dzogchen editors,


The material below currently exists on the ] page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it. The material below currently exists on the ] page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it.


:: According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist ] tradition {{Citation needed|date=February 2011}}, particularly Dzogchen ] or "mind series" the principal text of which is the ], there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the ] literature of the ] Dzogchen tradition, ] & ] (1954, 2000: p.&nbsp;10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the '']'' into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: *ekacittatva; *ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus: :: According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist ] tradition {{Citation needed|date=February 2011}}, particularly Dzogchen ] or "mind series" the principal text of which is the ], there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the ] literature of the ] Dzogchen tradition, ] & ] (1954, 2000: p.&nbsp;10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the '']'' into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: *ekacittatva; *ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus:
Line 104: Line 81:


:: According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of ] hypostasis, a universal ''Nous,'' of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror. :: According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of ] hypostasis, a universal ''Nous,'' of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror.

{{reflist-talk}}

Let me know if this could be valuable. ] (]) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

⚫ :I can hardly follow what this text is about... ] -] 05:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

:: Hi ], probably no good for this page then. Do you think it could be useful on the ] page, though? It is saying that when Evan-Wentz and Jung first translated the text, they misrepresented it as saying one great mind pervades the universe, whereas it said no such thing. That said, if the above is incomprehensible I'll just delete it from the ] article. ] (]) 16:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

⚫ :::I don't know, I can't judge. It's too specialized... ] -] 18:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
== "Gartak (martial art)" listed at ] ==
]
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ]. Please participate in ] if you wish to do so. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

== Article too long ==

There are sections that could stand alone as articles, rigpa, trekcho, togal, among others. ] (]) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

==Split proposal==
The article is really too long and the practice section nested too deep. Logically ], currently a redirect to the section, would be the place to which to split the material. I'm also open to ], but I think the dab style is currently preferred. ] (]) 20:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the length is fine, only the "base, path, and fruit" is of considerable length, nonetheless, I've seen longer articles. ] (]) 13:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

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Lead changes

This seems to be missing a refutation to appreciate the deletions intent. It can be restored. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Maha Ati be merged into Atiyoga/Dzogchen. "Maha Ati" is merely a (recently-coined) synonym for Ati yoga / Dzogchen. 109.156.203.132 (talk) 14:39, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

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Could this material be useful here or on a related page?

Hi Dzogchen editors,

The material below currently exists on the panpsychism page. It is hard to justify having this long historical overview only to conclude panpsychism is not a part of Dzogchen. However, as a matter of the history of Western study of Dzogchen, it is important knowledge that early translators had a false impression about Dzogchen teachings. Could it go on this page, as part of a "Historiography" section, perhaps? Or is there a related page where this would be useful? It seems a shame just to delete it.

According to a common misunderstanding, in the Buddhist Dzogchen tradition , particularly Dzogchen Semde or "mind series" the principal text of which is the Kulayarāja Tantra, there is nothing which is non-sentient, i.e. everything is sentient. Moreover, two of the English scholars who opened the discourse of the Bardo literature of the Nyingma Dzogchen tradition, Evans-Wentz & Jung (1954, 2000: p. 10) specifically with their partial translation and commentary of the Bardo Thodol into the English language write of the "One Mind" (Tibetan: sems nyid gcig; Sanskrit: *ekacittatva; *ekacittata; where * denotes a possible Sanskrit back-formation) thus:

The One Mind, as Reality, is the Heart which pulsates for ever, sending forth purified the blood-streams of existence, and taking them back again; the Great Breath, the Inscrutable Brahman, the Eternally Unveiled Mystery of the Mysteries of Antiquity, the Goal of all Pilgrimages, the End of all Existence.

It should be borne in mind, that Evans-Wentz never studied the Tibetan language and that the lama who did the main translation work for him was of the Gelukpa sect and is not known to have actually studied or practiced Dzogchen.
According to the translation with commentary, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness", by John Myrdhin Reynolds, the phrase, "It is the single nature of mind which encompasses all of Samsara and Nirvana," occurs only once in the text and it refers not to "some sort of Neo-Platonic hypostasis, a universal Nous, of which all individual minds are but fragments or appendages", but to the teaching that, "whether one finds oneself in the state of Samsara or in the state of Nirvana, it is the nature of the mind which reflects with awareness all experiences, no matter what may be their nature." This can be found in Appendix I, on pages 80–81. Reynolds elucidates further with the analogy of a mirror. To say that a single mirror can reflect ugliness or beauty, does not constitute an allegation that all ugliness and beauty is one single mirror.

References

  1. Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz, Carl Gustav Jung (1954, 2000). The Tibetan book of the great liberation, or, The method of realizing nirvāṇa through knowing the mind. Oxford University Press US, 2000. ISBN 0-19-513315-3, ISBN 978-0-19-513315-8. Source: (accessed: Sunday March 7, 2010)

Let me know if this could be valuable. Gazelle55 (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I can hardly follow what this text is about... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:09, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Hi Joshua Jonathan, probably no good for this page then. Do you think it could be useful on the Kulayarāja Tantra page, though? It is saying that when Evan-Wentz and Jung first translated the text, they misrepresented it as saying one great mind pervades the universe, whereas it said no such thing. That said, if the above is incomprehensible I'll just delete it from the panpsychism article. Gazelle55 (talk) 16:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I don't know, I can't judge. It's too specialized... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

"Gartak (martial art)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Gartak (martial art). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill 21:34, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Article too long

There are sections that could stand alone as articles, rigpa, trekcho, togal, among others. Skyerise (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Split proposal

The article is really too long and the practice section nested too deep. Logically Practice (Dzogchen), currently a redirect to the section, would be the place to which to split the material. I'm also open to Practice in Dzogchen, but I think the dab style is currently preferred. Skyerise (talk) 20:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the length is fine, only the "base, path, and fruit" is of considerable length, nonetheless, I've seen longer articles. 178.120.59.13 (talk) 13:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

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