Talk:David Myatt: Difference between revisions

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			{{see also\|Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Folk Culture\|Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Cosmic Ethics}}

			== Alleged involvement with O9A ==
	==Myatt's alleged travels to Islamic nations==
	Myatt and Coolmoon both claim that he travelled to Islamic countries, but not a shred of evidence has been produced. I will gladly remove the accuracy notice following that paragraph ''if evidence is produced''.] 18:24, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			Since this is an article about a living person certain criteria apply. In the matter of the Order of Nine Angles it is important give a NPOV which here means giving Myatt's consistent denial equal space, and to state that his involvement with the O9A is an allegation and has not been proven by probative evidence. Merely citing others who in print or online repeat or believe the claim is not evidence but either hearsay or the fallacy of appeal to authority.
	* Not a shred of evidence has been produced regarding the assertion - which you made and inserted here - about Myatt being a satanist. An assertion by you or a magazine like "Searchlight" is not evidence. Searchlight has not produced "one shred of evidence" to back up such a claim. In the interests of trying for NPOV I have not deleted such an unproved assertion about Myatt, but - I write again - it most certainly is not NPOV to insert "alleged" or "claimed" into the main article time and time again as you have done when a whole paragraph is devoted to that.

			What circumstantial evidence that has been presented - e.g by Senholt who is regularly quoted as an authority - is an example of the fallacy of Incomplete Evidence, as Myatt has documented in his essay 'A Matter of Honour'.
	:Did you not bother to read what I inserted below about NPOV and weaselspeak?

			In addition, using primary sources such as Myatt's own writings is IMO valid according to Misplaced Pages criteria in an article about a living person. This applies to Myatt's post-2012 claim of having rejected extremism including neo-nazism. ] (]) 08:15, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	:I claim nothing "about Myatt", contrary to what you assert above. Myatt himself has written about such travels in several published articles and in several private letters. You could of course now claim that Myatt is "lying" about this which would be an unproved accusation made by you which might seem by many to show your own bias against Myatt. Please do not bring that bias, that personal opinion - evident in what you write below - into this article. ] 03:59, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			:This discussion again? We had the same discussion in the talk page of the ONA article to the point there was official statement from the arbitration that it's not needed. Nazis don't need to be included for balance. Do you think Nazis are asked if the Holocaust happened and that is included in all related pages for balance? This is a perfect example of ].
	Myatt seems to put a lot of effort into self-promotion (many of the "neutral" external links are probably sites created by Myatt himself). Editors of this article need to be aware of this, and ensure that this article doesn't become another promotional vehicle for Myatt's apparently vivid fantasy life.
	] 20:35, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			:: No, this discussion is about the biography of living person which has different criteria. In addition, Myatt has rejected extremism and nazism so still calling him a nazi is an allegation as well. ] (]) 10:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	:His own site (or sites, insofar as they aren't redundant) are on-topic. I don't think this article will serve him very far as promotional material ;-) - ] 22:40, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			His life, his choices. Evidence for Myatt and the ONA's involvement in theistic Satanism and far-right Neo-Nazi terrorism can be found primarily in {{cite book \|last=Goodrick-Clarke \|first=Nicholas \|author-link=Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke \|year=2001 \|title=] \|chapter=Nazi Satanism and The New Aeon \|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xaiaM77s6N4C&pg=PA215 \|location=New York City \|publisher=] \|pages=215–223 \|isbn=978-0-8147-3124-6 \|lccn=2001004429}}, which is one of the academic, reliable sources that I provided in the article. Ironically, the only people in the world who adamantly deny that Myatt is the ONA's leader are him and the ONA members themselves. ''Who would have thought?'' ] (]) 09:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	::He seems to revel in the attention given to him, both positive and negative.] 21:23, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
			:The item you cite does not provide evidence of involvement, only make assumptions. Goodricke-Clarke ''assumed'' Myatt was Long and that he wrote Diablerie. He provided nothing probative in that matter or any other. Ditto with Senholt who claimed the writing style of Myatt was similar to Long's but provided no evidence from forensic linguistics; plus three other academics disputed his claim. Citing him and Goodricke-Clarke are examples of the fallacy of the appeal to authority.

			Post probative evidence - admissible in a court of law - from Goodricke-Clarke, Senholt or anyone else that Myatt is Anton Long and founded and led the O9A. Until there is such evidence they remain allegations, and to remove mention of them being allegations is against NPOV in regard to a living person who has consistently denied such allegations. ] (]) 10:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	Robert is just repeating what ] claims about Myatt, and his comments about Myatt do not appear to be objective: note the smear "Myatt's apparently vivid fantasy life," and that he keeps adding items such as "Myatt claims" to the article.

			::Yet, another scholar of religion specialized in the study of Satanism ({{cite book \|last=Introvigne \|first=Massimo \|author-link=Massimo Introvigne \|year=2016 \|title=Satanism: A Social History \|chapter=The Origins of Contemporary Satanism, 1952–1980 \|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nt8zDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA358 \|location=] \|publisher=] \|series=Aries Book Series: Texts and Studies in Western Esotericism \|volume=21 \|pages=358–364 \|doi=10.1163/9789004244962_012 \|isbn=978-90-04-28828-7 \|oclc=1030572947}}) and the U.S. military magazine on counter-terrorism ({{cite journal \|author-last=Upchurch \|author-first=H. E. \|date=22 December 2021 \|url=https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/CTC-SENTINEL-102021.pdf \|title=The Iron March Forum and the Evolution of the "Skull Mask" Neo-Fascist Network \|url-status=live \|format=PDF \|editor1-last=Cruickshank \|editor1-first=Paul \|editor2-last=Hummel \|editor2-first=Kristina \|journal=] \|volume=14 \|issue=10 \|pages=27–37 \|publisher=] \|location=] \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211227044425/https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/CTC-SENTINEL-102021.pdf \|archive-date=27 December 2021 \|access-date=19 January 2022}}) reported the same regarding Myatt's involvement with the ONA and the far-right underground, which is a well-known fact about his life, and the main reason for him being notable. If he was never involved in the ONA and the far-right network, then what did he apologize for? Stealing candies from the supermarket? Come on. ] (]) 10:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
			:::Also, why are you writing down so many sections for the same discussion? There's no need for that. ] (]) 10:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

			== Introvigne ==
	In one respect Robert is clearly in error - Hamas has used, and does use, articles written by Abdul Aziz ibn Myatt. See

			In the work cited, Introvigne provides no evidence based on scholarly research for the claim that Myatt is Anton Long and used that pseudonym. He merely repeats what others such as Goodricke-Clarke and Senholt claimed, which claims of theirs again are not based on scholarly research. Introvigne thus commits the fallacy of appeal to authority.
	http://www.hamasonline.com/indexx.php?page=Qassam/martyrdom%20operations

			Where is the research based on scholarly sources, such as authenticated original documents, which reveals that Myatt is Long and founded the O9A? There is none. Where are the sources you cite which balance the claims by providing Myatt's side of the story? So far, only Koehler in the work I previously cited. ] (]) 10:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	I expect this link to be down sometime soon, however, as such sites tend to come and go.

			:Yet, another scholar of religion specialized in the study of Satanism ({{cite book \|last=Introvigne \|first=Massimo \|author-link=Massimo Introvigne \|year=2016 \|title=Satanism: A Social History \|chapter=The Origins of Contemporary Satanism, 1952–1980 \|chapter-url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nt8zDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA358 \|location=] \|publisher=] \|series=Aries Book Series: Texts and Studies in Western Esotericism \|volume=21 \|pages=358–364 \|doi=10.1163/9789004244962_012 \|isbn=978-90-04-28828-7 \|oclc=1030572947}}) and the U.S. military magazine on counter-terrorism ({{cite journal \|author-last=Upchurch \|author-first=H. E. \|date=22 December 2021 \|url=https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/CTC-SENTINEL-102021.pdf \|title=The Iron March Forum and the Evolution of the "Skull Mask" Neo-Fascist Network \|url-status=live \|format=PDF \|editor1-last=Cruickshank \|editor1-first=Paul \|editor2-last=Hummel \|editor2-first=Kristina \|journal=] \|volume=14 \|issue=10 \|pages=27–37 \|publisher=] \|location=] \|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20211227044425/https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/CTC-SENTINEL-102021.pdf \|archive-date=27 December 2021 \|access-date=19 January 2022}}) reported the same regarding Myatt's involvement with the ONA and the far-right underground, which is a well-known fact about his life, and the main reason for him being notable. If he was never involved in the ONA and the far-right network, then what did he apologize for? Stealing candies from the supermarket? Come on. ] (]) 10:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
	The ''Searchlight'' claims have been made without any evidence being produced, and one can see in them an attempt, perhaps, to discredit Myatt.
			::Also, why are you writing down so many sections for the same discussion? There's no need for that. ] (]) 10:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

			== Removing Original Research ==
	The Julie Wright site has been existence for over six years, and presents both pro- and con- views.

			The citations are full of original research and primary sources that almost certainly don't meet WP:RS (some of which I've removed). Wordpress articles about and/or by David Myatt are not objective or trustworthy sources for information about his life or ideas and in many cases are irrelevant anyway. David Myatt is primarily notable for his contributions to far right and to a much lesser extent Islamist radicalism so we don't need paragraphs worth of material about his views on the etymology of Pathei-Mathos or similar things. Also worth noting that this is a man who has been repeatedly accused of aggressively curating his online image using sockpuppets. Not saying I can provide a RS for that because I can't but it's something to keep in mind for anyone who watches this page. ] (]) 06:01, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
	I have amended the Myatt article in an attempt to be more objective. ] 07:38, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			== Lead section and early life ==

			Nothing has been deleted with the article IMO only rearranged in line with other articles about living persons.
	* I have removed the web-link to the Folk site as much of the material is replicated on the Julie Wright site.
	As for user Robert's assertion about this article promoting Myatt, I agree with user David Gerard - the references are all to material which are uncomplimentary about Myatt. ] 18:03, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			Since the article is about Myatt not about the O9A the long section about the O9A after the lead seems inappropriate - and also seems to contravene NPOV - especially as there is a link in the lead to the detailed Misplaced Pages O9A article plus the detailed mention of the O9A in a following section. What other articles here about a living person begin with a section not about their early or their personal life but about something they are alleged to be involved with? Example - e.g. does the article about the notorious Aleksandr Dugin begin with his early life or with a detailed account of something such as his alleged links to Putin?
	* Can we try and keep the article neutral and objective? I mean, avoid the use of terms like "alleged", or "Myatt asserts"? Also, avoid dragging in unsubstantiated allegations made by magazines, or newspapers, or political groups or individuals with probably their own agenda? So "Richard" has his own views about Myatt. Excellent. So do I have my own views - not pro- actually - but I do not wish to push my opinions on other readers. This after all is an encyclopedia, not a work of political journalism. ] 11:13, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			Hence why I have put his early life first and put the personal stuff about Myatt from the O9A section into the personal life section and the stuff about the O9A into the 'occult section'.
	::There's absolutely nothing wrong with "alleged" or "Myatt asserts". The allegations are fine with the sources referenced - ] 16:07, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

			Also, why was the link to Myatt's personal website - https://www.davidmyatt.info/ - deleted when even the article about arguably the far more notorious David Irving article has a link to his website? As do many other articles about controversial living persons. ] (]) 05:34, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
	* I disagree. That reduces the article to the level of tabloid journalism, for all the allegations made about Myatt are just that - allegations, without any proof whatsoever being offered.

			== Wubbage ==
	Now, if the sources were researched, academic, or detailed that would be another matter it seems to me. But these sources are far from that. In truth, most if not all of them seem to stem from the "Searchlight" magazine. Now, to apply such allegations, and innuendo and the like to all articles about individuals would make them far from objective.

			Is that a joke ? ] (]) 14:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
	Are we going to produce articles which just give someone's personal opinion about someone else, or are we going to try to be somewhat objective?

	Let me see - take an article on wikipedia about someone at random and do what "Richard" is doing here. What do we get?

	"Barack Obama has been accused of being a satanist - the founder of a secret satanic cult. A well-known self-publicist, Obama's weird fantasy life has come under media scrutiny recently when he spoke of his alleged visits
	to Africa. Obama has denied being a satanist..."

	Now is that character assasination, or what? ] 18:07, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	* To labor the point - I suggest "Robert" looks at the NPOV article and also Misplaced Pages:Guidelines for controversial articles, and in particular the "Be careful with weaselspeak" section.

	For "Richard" it appears is indulging in weaselspeak.

	It is not NPOV to continually insert "alleged", "assumed", or "claimed" in the main article about Myatt when I have already inserted a paragraph about some people claim to have doubts about certain events in Myatt's life. ] 06:17, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

	* I agree with Coolmoon about the weaselspeak and have altered the Myatt article a little but keeping some comments about "the doubts" expressed by Robert above. They are all now at the end of the piece. For comparison, go see for example the article about Nick Griffin of the BNP - another neo-nazi - where weaselspeak is noticable by its absence. ] 07:25, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

	Since the article contains seven paragraphs of which the last two are given over to what in my view is weaselspeak, may be we can leave the article alone now, since these last paragraphs are nearly a third of the whole article and the introduction of any more weaselspeak would tip the balance too far. ] 18:00, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)


	Robert is at it again - I mean, introducing more weaselspeak, which I've deleted. Read what Coolmoon writes above. About one third of the article is given over to other's views about Myatt - we don't need more. Those interested can follow up the Searchlight claims, or whatever, or read the books referenced in the article which give a quite anti-Myatt view. Robert - if you want to pursue what seems to be some kind of vendetta against Myatt, write elsewhere. Remmember, as keep writing here, Wiki is about NPOV.


	* "Robert" inserted more claims about Myatt - which have been removed by A.N. Other - and even those claims are bogus. I've researched the Usenet archives, and found that such claims have been made, a few times, by others, and also refuted, very clearly, by Myatt aka Abdul Aziz.
	**Lest this falls to the level of a Usenet diatribe, others can do the research about Robert's assertions for themselves. They can start with "soc.religion.islam" and submissions by Abdul Aziz. I'm with Coolmoon et al that such "weaselspeak" as Robert is inserting is out of place in this article. I suggest he writes an article for "Searchlight", or even posts one on Usenet, which are far more suitable places for such claims and character assassination. ] 12:36, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

	* I have somewhat changed the part relating to Myatt's travels in Muslim lands - striving here for less bias (pace, Robert!) and the NPOV which is essential here. ] 05:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

	* Further note re NPOV - if "Robert" inserts more weaselspeak, the next best course of action might be to consider a wiki "Request for arbitration" on this page which should put an end to the edit wars that seem to be going on here. We can avoid this by agreeing that the article as it stands is neutral and contains enough comments from others relating to certain events in Myatt's life, something I have strived to explain in my comments here. ] 14:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

	= Merged articles =

	See ] and also ].

	==British Empire?==
	How much of a British Empire was there between 1950 and 1967? ]] 06:18, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

	:Less than there was half a century before, certainly, but enough for his father to have been employed in its administration if that's the statement in the article you're refering to. See ]. Plenty of African countries achieved their independence in the 1960s. — ] ] 13:16, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

	==References==
	This article seems to be based almost entirely on Myatt's own websites, or websites he appears to control. It would be useful to track down independent sources, particularly for claims about him having translated ancient Greek texts, being a former monk, and having studied physics. I deleted the section on cosmic ethics as it went on and on, didn't say anything all that different from the previous section, and seemed to constitute advertising for Myatt rather than a summary of his views. I also tidied up some poor writing, odd use of capitals etc. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 20:51, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

	:Forgot to add that I rewrote the intro and added a photograph. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:29, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

	::To the anon IP, we can't call suicide attacks "martyrdom operations," though we can add that Myatt calls them this, if he does, bearing in mind that Misplaced Pages must be based on published sources. See ]. Many thanks, ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 15:36, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

	:: In reply to SlimVirgin. If you do a simple google you will find Myatt's Greek translations which have in the past eight or more years been used by several Universities. Copies of his translations are in the British Library. His Sappho translations are appreciated in some Sapphic circles, no less. As for him being a monk - this is documented. A photo of him with the other monks even appeared in a brochure published by the monastery in question. As for him studying Physics - again, this is documented. I suggest you approach people like Gerry Gable at the Searchlight organization (UK) if you want proof. But for your records - Uni was York; monk, Fort Augustus in Scotland. As for your remark about the websites - please, NPOV! Julie Wright's, the main one, is hardly pro-Myatt. As for using the term "martyrdom operations" - this is common in the Mid-East, and used by Islamists. Check out Hamas, Al-Qaeda and so on. Also, note that the term "Zionist-Crusader alliance" is likewise in common use by Islamists. I also suggest you read the books which are referenced - they give some background detail to Myatt's life, especially the one by Goodricke-Clark. I hope this helps :) ] 17:57, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

	:::Thanks, Coolmoon. Do you have a source that says he went to Hull, because it would good to add this, and the matriculation year. I've checked with a friend who teaches Classics, and he doesn't know of Myatt's translations, which is not to say they don't exist, but we'll need to pin it down. The Google searches I've done return only Myatt-related or WP-related websites. Do you know who published the translations and when? Thanks for the Ampleforth Abbey information.

	:::Also, do you know who Julie Wright is? It's not a question of using sources that are pro- or anti-Myatt. It's that we must use credible, reputable published sources, not personal websites. We can use Myatt's personal website as a source for what he says about himself, but if we want to state something as a fact, then we need an independent, reputable, third-party reference, and as we don't know who Julie Wright is (or I don't, anyway), we can't judge whether she counts as that. See ] for more details.

	:::Regarding martyrdom operations, this article isn't about what Islamists say; it's about Myatt. If Myatt has called these martyrdom operations anywhere that we can find, then we can add after suicide attacks, "which Myatt has called martyrdom operations." But we can't associate the term with him otherwise, and we can't use it as though it's a normal way of describing suicide attacks. Most people in the world don't call them martyrdom operations. Hope this helps. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 18:11, May 2, 2005 (UTC)


	If you read the Myatt article which is on the Hamas site you will see he uses the term martyrdom operations - the article is reproduced on his own Islamist site, and was on several other Islamist sites, which got closed down. Reference - http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002935.php

	:As for his Greek translations, the original edition of his Agamemnon, for example, is 094664635X published in 1994. But I do believe many of his translations have been amended since publication with these amendments being on-line only, since Myatt has announced he upholds copyleft, not copyright. Suggest you try the following sites for use of his Greek texts - http://classicpersuasion.org/pw/sappho/sappmyatt.htm
	www.pagebuilder.com.br/proscenio/biblioteca/oedipus.doc
	www.sogang.ac.kr/~anthony/Classics/Oedipus.htm

	:: You say "reputable" and "credible" sources. And just who decides this? The virtue of this medium, this Misplaced Pages, is that we are not constrained by the Establishment. The Julie Wright site provides much Myatt material - check out the "Private Letters". We can use our own judgment to decide if what is on such a site is "credible" and "reputable" surely - and "published" now of course includes the Internet! As for her reliability, she has been used as a Myatt source by no less than the Searchlight organization - and is just "an ordinary bystander" with an interest in Myatt's poetry. ] 18:36, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

	:::Thanks for all this information, Coolmoon, which is extremely helpful. Regarding jihadwatch, I can't see anything on there from Myatt; sorry if I've missed it.

	:::The ISBN number turned up this: ''Agamemnon: A Commentary and Radical New Translation'', (Thormynd Greek Literature S), Aeschylus, D W Myatt (Translator), September 21, 1993), ISBN 094664635X, as well as other publications of Myatt's. I'd already checked Amazon and had found nothing, but I didn't know he was published as D W Myatt.

	:::Regarding what counts as a reputable source, you are right, of course, and this is something of a bone of contention in Misplaced Pages, and we have to judge sources on a case-by-case basis. Academic sources are best, mainstream newspapers next best, and so on. The worst sources would be personal websites (unless we're writing about the website's owner, in which case it becomes primary-source material, and that's okay), or anything posted to a website's noticeboard, blog, Usenet etc. The problem with Julie Wright is that we don't know who she is. You say she's an ordinary bystander, but who? The difficulty is that we have no way of knowing if what she says is accurate, and if it's a personal website, there has been no fact-checking process, such as you'd find with e.g. ''The Times'', ''New York Times'' etc. — as inadequate as their fact-checking procedures often are, they do exist, and it's this process of peer-review that makes the source credible or reputable by Misplaced Pages's standards.

	:::If you can find a published source where Myatt explicitly calls suicide attacks "martyrdom operations", then I'm fine with you adding it to the intro, though it would be a good idea to link to the source after the sentence. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 19:14, May 2, 2005 (UTC)


	* I've given a reference for Myatt's use of the term martyrdom operations, and you and others should know that many Muslims find the term "suicide attacks", or whatever, to be objectionable, and biased. Julie Wright's site contains verifiable information - such as the codename used by Scotland Yard when they were investigating Myatt for terrorist offences in 1998-2001. She gives most of her sources in her Biography of Myatt . She is an academic at an English University, I understand. Her sources have been accepted by people like Goodricke-Clarke, and "Searchlight", and have been used in at least three books which make mention of Myatt. AFAIK her sources are based on her own research, and on her personal correspondence and interviews with Myatt. ] 05:32, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

	** I've also added some more detail regarding Myatt's "The Numinous Way" since it seems that this and his Cosmic Ethics has led him to reject Islam, National Socialism, and so on, and to embrace such things as vegetarianism. One reference which mentions this is http://www.geocities.com/davidmyatt/gnostic_writings_of_david_myatt.html. ] 05:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

	==Anon IP edits==
	The world "nature" isn't capitalized, and we can't keep adding to Myatt's views, as this article isn't meant to reflect only his views. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 07:26, May 4, 2005 (UTC)


	* I beg to disagree regarding Nature in contrast to nature - for that is the essence of Myatt's argument regarding "Nature"; he sees it as a living being. Here is a reference

	http://www.geocities.com/dwmyatt/cosmos1.html

	and also

	http://www.geocities.com/dwmyatt/whatnature.html

	I have now added some additional references to the Reference section, and deleted the mention of Myatt having rejected Islam - no where can I find an explicit reference, by Myatt, to this. ] 04:00, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

	:Thanks for adding the references and correcting the thing about Islam. About the word "nature," if Myatt capitalizes it, we should do so when quoting him, but outside quotation marks, we have to write it as it's normally written, otherwise it looks as though we're going along with his worldview, which we're not allowed to do. Thanks for digging up all these references; it's very helpful. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 05:49, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

	:: Hi SlimVirgin! Cool name! (Yes - I've checked your page for it's origin!) On balance, I think you're right, so I'll leave as is. ] 08:29, 5 May 2005 (UTC)


	I have removed the edits by 81.135.7.92 as the "Statement" they reference does not exist. I have reverted to my previous edits. ] 05:04, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

	==Abdul Aziz Al-Qari==

	Myatt has denied using this particular Muslim alias, although it has been claimed, by others (on Usenet and elsewhere) that he does and has used it.

	Myatt has only ever admitted to using the Muslim names Abdul-Aziz and Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt - see his replies on soc.religion.islam for instance and the following link:

	Therefore, I have removed this name from the main article - unless someone can supply some evidence. ] 5 July 2005 06:18 (UTC)

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Alleged involvement with O9A

Since this is an article about a living person certain criteria apply. In the matter of the Order of Nine Angles it is important give a NPOV which here means giving Myatt's consistent denial equal space, and to state that his involvement with the O9A is an allegation and has not been proven by probative evidence. Merely citing others who in print or online repeat or believe the claim is not evidence but either hearsay or the fallacy of appeal to authority.

What circumstantial evidence that has been presented - e.g by Senholt who is regularly quoted as an authority - is an example of the fallacy of Incomplete Evidence, as Myatt has documented in his essay 'A Matter of Honour'.

In addition, using primary sources such as Myatt's own writings is IMO valid according to Misplaced Pages criteria in an article about a living person. This applies to Myatt's post-2012 claim of having rejected extremism including neo-nazism. Coolmoon (talk) 08:15, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

This discussion again? We had the same discussion in the talk page of the ONA article to the point there was official statement from the arbitration that it's not needed. Nazis don't need to be included for balance. Do you think Nazis are asked if the Holocaust happened and that is included in all related pages for balance? This is a perfect example of WP:UNDUE.

No, this discussion is about the biography of living person which has different criteria. In addition, Myatt has rejected extremism and nazism so still calling him a nazi is an allegation as well. Coolmoon (talk) 10:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

His life, his choices. Evidence for Myatt and the ONA's involvement in theistic Satanism and far-right Neo-Nazi terrorism can be found primarily in Goodrick-Clarke, Nicholas (2001). "Nazi Satanism and The New Aeon". Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity. New York City: New York University Press. pp. 215–223. ISBN 978-0-8147-3124-6. LCCN 2001004429., which is one of the academic, reliable sources that I provided in the article. Ironically, the only people in the world who adamantly deny that Myatt is the ONA's leader are him and the ONA members themselves. Who would have thought? GenoV84 (talk) 09:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The item you cite does not provide evidence of involvement, only make assumptions. Goodricke-Clarke assumed Myatt was Long and that he wrote Diablerie. He provided nothing probative in that matter or any other. Ditto with Senholt who claimed the writing style of Myatt was similar to Long's but provided no evidence from forensic linguistics; plus three other academics disputed his claim. Citing him and Goodricke-Clarke are examples of the fallacy of the appeal to authority.

Post probative evidence - admissible in a court of law - from Goodricke-Clarke, Senholt or anyone else that Myatt is Anton Long and founded and led the O9A. Until there is such evidence they remain allegations, and to remove mention of them being allegations is against NPOV in regard to a living person who has consistently denied such allegations. Coolmoon (talk) 10:03, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Yet, another scholar of religion specialized in the study of Satanism (Introvigne, Massimo (2016). "The Origins of Contemporary Satanism, 1952–1980". Satanism: A Social History. Aries Book Series: Texts and Studies in Western Esotericism. Vol. 21. Leiden: Brill Publishers. pp. 358–364. doi:10.1163/9789004244962_012. ISBN 978-90-04-28828-7. OCLC 1030572947.) and the U.S. military magazine on counter-terrorism (Upchurch, H. E. (22 December 2021). Cruickshank, Paul; Hummel, Kristina (eds.). "The Iron March Forum and the Evolution of the "Skull Mask" Neo-Fascist Network" (PDF). CTC Sentinel. 14 (10). West Point, New York: Combating Terrorism Center: 27–37. Archived (PDF) from the original on 27 December 2021. Retrieved 19 January 2022.) reported the same regarding Myatt's involvement with the ONA and the far-right underground, which is a well-known fact about his life, and the main reason for him being notable. If he was never involved in the ONA and the far-right network, then what did he apologize for? Stealing candies from the supermarket? Come on. GenoV84 (talk) 10:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, why are you writing down so many sections for the same discussion? There's no need for that. GenoV84 (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Introvigne

In the work cited, Introvigne provides no evidence based on scholarly research for the claim that Myatt is Anton Long and used that pseudonym. He merely repeats what others such as Goodricke-Clarke and Senholt claimed, which claims of theirs again are not based on scholarly research. Introvigne thus commits the fallacy of appeal to authority.

Where is the research based on scholarly sources, such as authenticated original documents, which reveals that Myatt is Long and founded the O9A? There is none. Where are the sources you cite which balance the claims by providing Myatt's side of the story? So far, only Koehler in the work I previously cited. Coolmoon (talk) 10:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, why are you writing down so many sections for the same discussion? There's no need for that. GenoV84 (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Removing Original Research

The citations are full of original research and primary sources that almost certainly don't meet WP:RS (some of which I've removed). Wordpress articles about and/or by David Myatt are not objective or trustworthy sources for information about his life or ideas and in many cases are irrelevant anyway. David Myatt is primarily notable for his contributions to far right and to a much lesser extent Islamist radicalism so we don't need paragraphs worth of material about his views on the etymology of Pathei-Mathos or similar things. Also worth noting that this is a man who has been repeatedly accused of aggressively curating his online image using sockpuppets. Not saying I can provide a RS for that because I can't but it's something to keep in mind for anyone who watches this page. DirtyDiaperDavey (talk) 06:01, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Lead section and early life

Nothing has been deleted with the article IMO only rearranged in line with other articles about living persons.

Since the article is about Myatt not about the O9A the long section about the O9A after the lead seems inappropriate - and also seems to contravene NPOV - especially as there is a link in the lead to the detailed Misplaced Pages O9A article plus the detailed mention of the O9A in a following section. What other articles here about a living person begin with a section not about their early or their personal life but about something they are alleged to be involved with? Example - e.g. does the article about the notorious Aleksandr Dugin begin with his early life or with a detailed account of something such as his alleged links to Putin?

Hence why I have put his early life first and put the personal stuff about Myatt from the O9A section into the personal life section and the stuff about the O9A into the 'occult section'.

Also, why was the link to Myatt's personal website - https://www.davidmyatt.info/ - deleted when even the article about arguably the far more notorious David Irving article has a link to his website? As do many other articles about controversial living persons. Coolmoon (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Wubbage

Is that a joke ? TheyGoToWar (talk) 14:10, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

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