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Revision as of 15:28, 7 March 2019 editNoonIcarus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers39,927 edits →The wages of POV edits are edit warring: Important details← Previous edit Latest revision as of 23:39, 20 April 2024 edit undoHarryboyles (talk | contribs)Administrators153,037 editsm removing unsupported parameter 'attention' in {{WikiProject Venezuela}}Tag: AWB 
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== Extremely biased excerpt == == Llanero (sic) ==

Why the "sic" in the spanish word "llanero"? The spelling is correct... - ] (]) 21:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)


== Addressing unresolved WP:AL notice and WP:CON discussions ==
In the "Economic and social policy" section:


] continues to revert my edits without explanations so here I am to discuss.
"Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions, aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions so he could maintain political power. According to Corrales and Penfold, 'aid was disbursed to some of the poor, and more gravely, in a way that ended up helping the president and his allies and cronies more than anyone else'."


My were an attempt to begin resolving the 2014 ] notice on the Policy Overview section and the unresolved ] and ] conversations from the talk page from 2015 and 2017, and also the 2018 ] discussion.
This excerpt sounds extremely anti-government biased and, in my humble view, violates Misplaced Pages's laws on neutrality. There is no decisive source stating that Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions to "maintain political power". I humbly propose that we remove both the aforementioned piece of text and the Corrales and Penfold quote entirely to avoid breaking neutrality and tell the facts from a neutral point of view. ] (]) 04:45, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


For example:
:Have to disagree due to sources.----] (]) 20:14, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
1) "Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions, aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions, using these populist policies '''in order to maintain political power'''"


"in order to maintain political power" is ] and speculation about intentions that is not supported by sources.
::One of the sources in the first sentence is "Stratfor", referred to as "The Shadow CIA" and favorable to American geopolitical views. Hardly a reputable source. ] (]) 17:49, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
:::Note that it's also not appropriate to include this quote in the references section appended to a ref tag for more bromine statements. ] (]) 18:46, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
::::{{ping|ZiaLater}} I am very pointedly challenging the reliability of Maria C Werlau as a source on Venezuela. She's literally on the board of directors of an anti-socialist propaganda organization, she is a former bank VP. She is not an academic; her highest credential is a Masters' Degree from what I can find. In short, even if the journal itself ''can'' be a reliable source, in this context, from this author it is ''not'' reliable except as an opinion paper by a non-expert banker. ] (]) 12:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
:::::Furthermore, it's pretty evident from the discussion here that you ''don't'' have a clear consensus to re-insert these sorts of ] quotes. ] (]) 12:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)


2) "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." is only sourced to one article by ], which is identified on its Wiki page as a Korean "Right-wing Conservative" paper. Hardly a ] on a topic about left-wing political figures in Venezuela.
== Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion ==
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2018-07-25T13:08:34.326668 | Hugo Chavez- Vargas 1999.jpg -->
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2018-07-25T13:08:34.326668 | Hugo Chavez.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. ] (]) 13:08, 25 July 2018 (UTC)


3) "The Chávez administration then used such oil prices on his populist policies '''to gain the approval of voters'''." is another example of speculating about intent of actions and is again not ].
== English ==


4) "Economists say that the Venezuelan government's overspending" gives no citations to which economists and "overspending" is again non-] language.
Why this article is written in British English? Venezuela is not part of Europe. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:36, 30 December 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


My edits were marked as vandalism and reverted multiple times. It seems like ] to me but I'm open to discussion. ] (]) 13:34, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
== U.S.–Venezuela relations ==
:You don't get to decide which parts of the information in source should be left out of article to make Chavez look good. All of this is properly sourced to reliable news sites.--] (]) 00:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
{{Ping|Flickotown}} Per your edit wars and please explain your reasoning. How can be "undue and not in keeping with the tone and point of the paragraph"? You are obviously ] by reverting my edits across several Misplaced Pages articles. -- ] (]) 11:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
::Accusing other editors of just trying to make controversial figures look good is against one of the fundamental principals of Misplaced Pages (see ]).
:The material you included is clearly undue and therefore violates ] but your ignorance makes sense given your edit-warring on this article and history of consistently including similarly one-sided, point-of-view-material on other articles. You will note that the paragraph consists wholly in outlining his ideological orientation and policy directions - this makes sense because it is just giving a general description of foreign policy positions. Not his opinion on some specific event that you discovered overnight and then arbitrarily decided was important because you have a political agenda to cram and/or because you have a desperate urgency to claw out some kind of false balance in the paragraph. I will remind you that the foreign policy paragraph stood for years before you came along and injected your ] pov-material so the obligation really is on you and anybody else to justify why it belongs. I will also remind you that you have an established track record of edit warring with other users on a whole host of other articles for the same reason that you are edit-warring on this article (injecting highly non-neutral material), but for the sake of assuming good faith I will urge that you do not restore this undue material. There are other places where that kind of stuff can go (like a personal blog) but on here? No that just isn't going to fly. ] (]) 02:35, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::My edits are not about making someone look good, they're about building an article that has a neutral point of view (see ]) and that doesn't rely on cherrypicking from sources (see ]).
::{{Ping|Flickotown}}, Chávez has been known for his anti-American rhetoric and the anti-Americanism had a prominent place in his foreign policy. The invasion of Iraq was the most controversial U.S. foreign policy decision in recent history. The intervention in Libya was also controversial. I see no reasonable argument here to remove these informative additions. ] doesn't count. I agree with ]. My additions are sourced, relevant and the ] is against you. Please read ] and ]. Also read ], I see you are wikihounding by reverting some of my edits on multiple pages. -- ] (]) 08:42, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::Please avoid status quo stonewalling (see ]) by providing a clear, substantive explanation of your objection to the changes that were made. ] (]) 12:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
::: ''Chávez has been known for his anti-American rhetoric and the anti-Americanism had a prominent place in his foreign policy.'' That is already reflected in the paragraph. It is your right to expand on that part of the section (as I would expect given your ] history) but bear in mind that the section as a whole is meant to provide just a synopsis of Chavez's foreign policy not some paranoid focus on America (or any other country). So it would be best to do general descriptions and not this ] material of yours.
:I looked up one of the sources, the one for "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." This is an article in a South Korean newspaper, '']''. The use of this source is obvious evidence of cherry-picking. The editor looked for a source that supported his or her view. Obviously anyone reseaching Venezuela is unlikely to go to a South Korean newspaper for information unless they happen to live there. Furthermore, the opinions of newspaper reporters are not reliable sources for facts. ] (]) 02:33, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
::: ''The invasion of Iraq was the most controversial U.S. foreign policy decision in recent history. The intervention in Libya was also controversial.'' That is irrelevant to the discussion and yet another example of your ]. This article (let alone the paragraph) is dealing with Chavez not American foreign policy, let alone your interpretation of what foreign policy event is or isn't controversial.
::: ''I see no reasonable argument here to remove these informative additions. ] doesn't count.'' There is. You have already been told what they are. You just don't like it because you have an agenda to push (as your edit-warring on this article and history of consistently including similarly one-sided, point-of-view-material on other articles indicate).
::: ''I agree with ]. My additions are sourced, relevant and the ] is against you.'' No no there is no "consensus." Numbers-wise it is a deadlock as another editor has reverted you (]). Everything still stands: the foreign policy paragraph stood for years before you came along and injected your ] pov-material so the obligation really is on you and anybody else to justify why it belongs. You do not get to overturn years of consensus on the paragraph just because you want to ] (]) 10:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
::::Paranoid focus on America as you put it {{ping|Flickotown}} sounds very like Chávez' opinion on the US. This paragraph is well-sourced, relevant, not undue sand should remain. Seems several editors disagree with you so please desist from reverting, while continuing to seek a consensus here. ♫ ] ] ] 19:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)


== Treating opinions as fact == == Long quotes ==


Although I reverted the new editor who had what s/he described as a ], I do think the quotes are a bit excessive in length and can be trimmed. --] (]) 23:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
How is an ''opinion'' expressed by a South Korean newspaper due inclusion in the lede in Misplaced Pages's voice? Especially for the ] claim that ''a robust public sector caused the economic crisis'' as opposed to over a decade of economic warfare from the US in the form of trade sanctions, manipulative alliances and sponsoring massive smuggling over the Colombian border? ] (]) 13:43, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
:While BTI may have more due relevancy than the original source, it still cannot be communicated using Misplaced Pages's voice. They're clearly a strongly POV source; they are ''explicitly anti-socialist'' so their views need to be contextualized. ] (]) 13:48, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
::{{ping|Simonm223}} Wow. Can you provide sources about how there has been "decade of economic warfare from the US in the form of trade sanctions, manipulative alliances and sponsoring massive smuggling over the Colombian border"? References on other claims have been included before and those are bold statements. Can you quote how the BTI is "explicitly anti-socialist"? Truth be told, is ] the problem, the sources used or just the content added? --] (]) 13:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
:::As I'm not putting that statement ''in article space'' I am not required to. We can consider it common knowledge. With regard to BTI being explicitly anti-socialist, I went to their "about" page. That's pretty clear on the matter. With regard to the ] problem the new source (BTI) is slightly different from the old source (the Korean newspaper). As a think tank or NGO, BTI's opinion may be due where some random daily is not. However the statement still represents BTI's ''opinion'' so, while it may be due in the lede, it must be accredited to BTI. And in this case, BTI expresses a specific mission to forward "transition to... market economy" - which means they are an organization which explicitly opposes socialist practice. As such, the accreditation must contextualize their opinion as being one which comes from a group that wishes to undo socialism notwithstanding the specifics of Venezuela's economy.] (]) 14:01, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
::::Would the person who claimed that accrediting the org who made the statement as the org who made the statement is unrelated synth care to explain themself? Because it really looks like ]. ] (]) 19:31, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


:I agree that the deletion was overbroad and likewise agree that this section is too long. A step-by-step approach to revising is probably better, focusing on the block quotes. ] (]) 23:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Likewise, that of an obscure German think-thank. Certainly not appropriate for the lede. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC)


::Indeed. Step-by-step is better. --] (]) 23:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
== The wages of POV edits are edit warring ==
:::{{re|David Tornheim|JArthur1984}} I agree as well. I may make some edits to summarize what is being said in each quote. If you have any concerns, you can bring link the edit here and we can discuss. ] (]) 02:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
:::Here is a list of my edits and their edit summaries:
:::# - Removing two quotes; the first was talking about the Caracazo events (which I shortened and provided context in the body) and the second was a very broad statement.
:::# - Summarized third quote
:::# - Removing coffee quote. Consolidating into "Criticism of capitalism and neoliberalism" and "Marxism and socialism" subsections. Soviet Union quotes consolidated. Tax reform and Mission Robinson quotes removed. Gandhi and Nehru quote moved to "Other influences" section.
:::Apologies for not spreading out the last edit, but a lot of it had to do with the organization of sections and seemed more appropriate. If you have any concerns, be sure to let me know!--] (]) 04:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)


== Deleted section ==
I'm not taking the side of either the IP nor {{U|Jamez42}} as I see both sets of edits as being full of ] problems and both as being used for either a pro or anti-Maduro ]. But I'm getting pretty tired of IPs and SPAs edit warring in Venezuela articles to make Misplaced Pages into a ] for their preferred opinions and I'm half tempted to ask Arbcomm to implement a restrictive sanctions regime here. I suggest you two avoid edit warring, go to talk and also consider editing other areas of Misplaced Pages once in a while. I'm tired of this. And it's getting worse, not better. Everybody stop. ] (]) 13:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
:I currently don't have the time to answer properly to every discussion, but I will repeat that the latest changes made by the IP were unreferenced in violation of ]. I'll repeat that I have not introduced any new wording, allegedly "anti-Maduro", and that this is in accordance to ]. --] (]) 14:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
::If you edited articles outside of those to do with Venezuela current affairs, you'd likely see why I view your edits as being as ] as those of the IP. ] (]) 14:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
:::I don't quite understand your point, but each edit should me examined individually, and looking at the edit history this should be clear. Having the article in my watchlist isn't related, and I hope you're not assuming bad faith over previous editorial disagreements. --] (]) 15:21, 7 March 2019 (UTC)


One of the sections I created at the Talk part was deleted. Why? ] (]) 03:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
== Recent changes ==


{{ping|146.115.72.47}} Could you please explain your recent changes? You haven't provided references to support them. --] (]) 14:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC) :Most likely, it got archived automatically. ] (]) 14:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 23:39, 20 April 2024

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To-do list for Hugo Chávez: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2018-04-01

(This list may be as old as from 2011. If someone has time, please go through and remove completed tasks.)

  • Improve satellite articles, such as adding details of the coup itself to Venezuelan coup attempt of 1992 and adding Anagnorisis' new information to Early life of Hugo Chávez and Personal life of Hugo Chávez.
  • Add information clarifying how unusual Chávez's oratorical style was.
  • Expand section on "Second Presidential Term: 2000–2006"
    • Add referenced information on the forty-nine economic laws passed in 2001, including the controversial Land Reform laws.
    • Add referenced information on his attempts to get all labour unions to consolidate into the state-controlled Bolivarian Labor Force.
    • Add referenced information on the introduction of social welfare programmes.
    • Add referenced information on the recall referendum and the opposition's claims that it was rigged.
  • Expand section on "Third Presidential Term: 2006–present"
  • Add more real data on the Economy section. Chavez's impact on Inflation, and Per Capita Income.
  • Add data on the January 2010 Bolivar devaluation against the USD.
  • Add information on the divisive effect of Chavez's regime, with polarised pro and anti camps.

Updated list for 2014:

  • Add information about his alleged funding of FARC.
  • Add information about his alleged funding or the Krichners in Argentina's political campaigns.
  • Add information about the alleged use of public funds without consent of the Venezuelan people.
  • Add information about murder rate while in presidency.
  • Add information about inflation and shortages during presidency.
  • Change in poverty rates compared to other Latin American counties (i.e., Peru, Columbia).
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:
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Llanero (sic)

Why the "sic" in the spanish word "llanero"? The spelling is correct... - Joaquin89uy (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Addressing unresolved WP:AL notice and WP:CON discussions

User:Duponiuex continues to revert my edits without explanations so here I am to discuss.

My edits were an attempt to begin resolving the 2014 WP:AL notice on the Policy Overview section and the unresolved WP:CON and WP:NPOV conversations from the talk page from 2015 and 2017, and also the 2018 WP:NPOV discussion.

For example: 1) "Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions, aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions, using these populist policies in order to maintain political power"

"in order to maintain political power" is WP:POVPUSH and speculation about intentions that is not supported by sources.

2) "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." is only sourced to one article by The Chosun Ilbo, which is identified on its Wiki page as a Korean "Right-wing Conservative" paper. Hardly a WP:RS on a topic about left-wing political figures in Venezuela.

3) "The Chávez administration then used such oil prices on his populist policies to gain the approval of voters." is another example of speculating about intent of actions and is again not WP:NPOV.

4) "Economists say that the Venezuelan government's overspending" gives no citations to which economists and "overspending" is again non-WP:NPOV language.

My edits were marked as vandalism and reverted multiple times. It seems like WP:IDONTLIKETHEM to me but I'm open to discussion. Edittttor (talk) 13:34, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

You don't get to decide which parts of the information in source should be left out of article to make Chavez look good. All of this is properly sourced to reliable news sites.--Duponiuex (talk) 00:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Accusing other editors of just trying to make controversial figures look good is against one of the fundamental principals of Misplaced Pages (see WP:GOODFAITH).
My edits are not about making someone look good, they're about building an article that has a neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV) and that doesn't rely on cherrypicking from sources (see WP:CHERRYPICKING).
Please avoid status quo stonewalling (see WP:STONEWALLING) by providing a clear, substantive explanation of your objection to the changes that were made. Edittttor (talk) 12:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
I looked up one of the sources, the one for "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." This is an article in a South Korean newspaper, The Chosun Ilbo. The use of this source is obvious evidence of cherry-picking. The editor looked for a source that supported his or her view. Obviously anyone reseaching Venezuela is unlikely to go to a South Korean newspaper for information unless they happen to live there. Furthermore, the opinions of newspaper reporters are not reliable sources for facts. TFD (talk) 02:33, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Long quotes

Although I reverted reverted the new editor who had deleted what s/he described as a WP:QUOTEFARM, I do think the quotes are a bit excessive in length and can be trimmed. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the deletion was overbroad and likewise agree that this section is too long. A step-by-step approach to revising is probably better, focusing on the block quotes. JArthur1984 (talk) 23:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Indeed. Step-by-step is better. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
@David Tornheim and JArthur1984: I agree as well. I may make some edits to summarize what is being said in each quote. If you have any concerns, you can bring link the edit here and we can discuss. WMrapids (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
Here is a list of my edits and their edit summaries:
  1. - Removing two quotes; the first was talking about the Caracazo events (which I shortened and provided context in the body) and the second was a very broad statement.
  2. - Summarized third quote
  3. - Removing coffee quote. Consolidating into "Criticism of capitalism and neoliberalism" and "Marxism and socialism" subsections. Soviet Union quotes consolidated. Tax reform and Mission Robinson quotes removed. Gandhi and Nehru quote moved to "Other influences" section.
Apologies for not spreading out the last edit, but a lot of it had to do with the organization of sections and seemed more appropriate. If you have any concerns, be sure to let me know!--WMrapids (talk) 04:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Deleted section

One of the sections I created at the Talk part was deleted. Why? Vintaquar (talk) 03:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Most likely, it got archived automatically. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
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