| Revision as of 21:38, 5 June 2020 editNoonIcarus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers39,927 edits →Marxism: Re← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 23:39, 20 April 2024 edit undoHarryboyles (talk | contribs)Administrators153,037 editsm removing unsupported parameter 'attention' in {{WikiProject Venezuela}}Tag: AWB | ||
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== Llanero (sic) == | ||
| {{Ping|Flickotown}} Per your edit wars and please explain your reasoning. How can be "undue and not in keeping with the tone and point of the paragraph"? You are obviously ] by reverting my edits across several Misplaced Pages articles. -- ] (]) 11:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :The material you included is clearly undue and therefore violates ] but your ignorance makes sense given your edit-warring on this article and history of consistently including similarly one-sided, point-of-view-material on other articles. You will note that the paragraph consists wholly in outlining his ideological orientation and policy directions - this makes sense because it is just giving a general description of foreign policy positions. Not his opinion on some specific event that you discovered overnight and then arbitrarily decided was important because you have a political agenda to cram and/or because you have a desperate urgency to claw out some kind of false balance in the paragraph. I will remind you that the foreign policy paragraph stood for years before you came along and injected your ] pov-material so the obligation really is on you and anybody else to justify why it belongs. I will also remind you that you have an established track record of edit warring with other users on a whole host of other articles for the same reason that you are edit-warring on this article (injecting highly non-neutral material), but for the sake of assuming good faith I will urge that you do not restore this undue material. There are other places where that kind of stuff can go (like a personal blog) but on here? No that just isn't going to fly. ] (]) 02:35, 9 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{Ping|Flickotown}}, Chávez has been known for his anti-American rhetoric and the anti-Americanism had a prominent place in his foreign policy. The invasion of Iraq was the most controversial U.S. foreign policy decision in recent history. The intervention in Libya was also controversial. I see no reasonable argument here to remove these informative additions. ] doesn't count. I agree with ]. My additions are sourced, relevant and the ] is against you. Please read ] and ]. Also read ], I see you are wikihounding by reverting some of my edits on multiple pages. -- ] (]) 08:42, 9 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::: ''Chávez has been known for his anti-American rhetoric and the anti-Americanism had a prominent place in his foreign policy.'' That is already reflected in the paragraph. It is your right to expand on that part of the section (as I would expect given your ] history) but bear in mind that the section as a whole is meant to provide just a synopsis of Chavez's foreign policy not some paranoid focus on America (or any other country). So it would be best to do general descriptions and not this ] material of yours. | |||
| ::: ''The invasion of Iraq was the most controversial U.S. foreign policy decision in recent history. The intervention in Libya was also controversial.'' That is irrelevant to the discussion and yet another example of your ]. This article (let alone the paragraph) is dealing with Chavez not American foreign policy, let alone your interpretation of what foreign policy event is or isn't controversial. | |||
| ::: ''I see no reasonable argument here to remove these informative additions. ] doesn't count.'' There is. You have already been told what they are. You just don't like it because you have an agenda to push (as your edit-warring on this article and history of consistently including similarly one-sided, point-of-view-material on other articles indicate). | |||
| ::: ''I agree with ]. My additions are sourced, relevant and the ] is against you.'' No no there is no "consensus." Numbers-wise it is a deadlock as another editor has reverted you (]). Everything still stands: the foreign policy paragraph stood for years before you came along and injected your ] pov-material so the obligation really is on you and anybody else to justify why it belongs. You do not get to overturn years of consensus on the paragraph just because you want to ] (]) 10:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Paranoid focus on America as you put it {{ping|Flickotown}} sounds very like Chávez' opinion on the US. This paragraph is well-sourced, relevant, not undue sand should remain. Seems several editors disagree with you so please desist from reverting, while continuing to seek a consensus here. ♫ ] ] ] 19:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| Why the "sic" in the spanish word "llanero"? The spelling is correct... - ] (]) 21:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Treating opinions as fact == | |||
| == Addressing unresolved WP:AL notice and WP:CON discussions == | |||
| How is an ''opinion'' expressed by a South Korean newspaper due inclusion in the lede in Misplaced Pages's voice? Especially for the ] claim that ''a robust public sector caused the economic crisis'' as opposed to over a decade of economic warfare from the US in the form of trade sanctions, manipulative alliances and sponsoring massive smuggling over the Colombian border? ] (]) 13:43, 15 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :While BTI may have more due relevancy than the original source, it still cannot be communicated using Misplaced Pages's voice. They're clearly a strongly POV source; they are ''explicitly anti-socialist'' so their views need to be contextualized. ] (]) 13:48, 15 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::{{ping|Simonm223}} Wow. Can you provide sources about how there has been "decade of economic warfare from the US in the form of trade sanctions, manipulative alliances and sponsoring massive smuggling over the Colombian border"? References on other claims have been included before and those are bold statements. Can you quote how the BTI is "explicitly anti-socialist"? Truth be told, is ] the problem, the sources used or just the content added? --] (]) 13:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::As I'm not putting that statement ''in article space'' I am not required to. We can consider it common knowledge. With regard to BTI being explicitly anti-socialist, I went to their "about" page. That's pretty clear on the matter. With regard to the ] problem the new source (BTI) is slightly different from the old source (the Korean newspaper). As a think tank or NGO, BTI's opinion may be due where some random daily is not. However the statement still represents BTI's ''opinion'' so, while it may be due in the lede, it must be accredited to BTI. And in this case, BTI expresses a specific mission to forward "transition to... market economy" - which means they are an organization which explicitly opposes socialist practice. As such, the accreditation must contextualize their opinion as being one which comes from a group that wishes to undo socialism notwithstanding the specifics of Venezuela's economy.] (]) 14:01, 15 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Would the person who claimed that accrediting the org who made the statement as the org who made the statement is unrelated synth care to explain themself? Because it really looks like ]. ] (]) 19:31, 15 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ] continues to revert my edits without explanations so here I am to discuss. | |||
| Likewise, that of an obscure German think-thank. Certainly not appropriate for the lede. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC) | |||
| My were an attempt to begin resolving the 2014 ] notice on the Policy Overview section and the unresolved ] and ] conversations from the talk page from 2015 and 2017, and also the 2018 ] discussion. | |||
| == The wages of POV edits are edit warring == | |||
| For example: | |||
| I'm not taking the side of either the IP nor {{U|Jamez42}} as I see both sets of edits as being full of ] problems and both as being used for either a pro or anti-Maduro ]. But I'm getting pretty tired of IPs and SPAs edit warring in Venezuela articles to make Misplaced Pages into a ] for their preferred opinions and I'm half tempted to ask Arbcomm to implement a restrictive sanctions regime here. I suggest you two avoid edit warring, go to talk and also consider editing other areas of Misplaced Pages once in a while. I'm tired of this. And it's getting worse, not better. Everybody stop. ] (]) 13:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| 1) "Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions, aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions, using these populist policies '''in order to maintain political power'''" | |||
| :I currently don't have the time to answer properly to every discussion, but I will repeat that the latest changes made by the IP were unreferenced in violation of ]. I'll repeat that I have not introduced any new wording, allegedly "anti-Maduro", and that this is in accordance to ]. --] (]) 14:06, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::If you edited articles outside of those to do with Venezuela current affairs, you'd likely see why I view your edits as being as ] as those of the IP. ] (]) 14:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :::I don't quite understand your point, but each edit should me examined individually, and looking at the edit history this should be clear. Having the article in my watchlist isn't related, and I hope you're not assuming bad faith over previous editorial disagreements. --] (]) 15:21, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::::How would I possibly know what's in your watchlist? All I can go by is your user contributions - which are effectively, from what I saw, either edits to pages about Venezuela or contributions to wikispace discussions of Venezuela. Again, if you thought I could see your watchlist, this is an indicator that you should probably broaden your understanding of Misplaced Pages culture by contributing outside the area of one highly contentious political dispute. ] (]) 15:56, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| {{outdent}} {{ping|Simonm223}} Another bad faith assumption, and if I may add, a mistaken one. This is becoming off topic, ]. Returning to the issue and like I have said before, not only weasel wording has been added, but unreferenced claims have been added or have replaced important ones, like suggestion that the poverty improvements have not been temporary, that these changes have stagnated rather than reversed, and arguing foreign sanctions are responsible for the crisis, not to mention that the category "Democratic socialists" was removed without explaination. It seems that these changes were not reviewed properly before being restored. I have pinged the IP that added the content, to no avail. If there aren't any policy based reasons to maintain these changes, I will restore the original version per ] and ]. --] (]) 22:19, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| "in order to maintain political power" is ] and speculation about intentions that is not supported by sources. | |||
| == Recent changes == | |||
| 2) "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." is only sourced to one article by ], which is identified on its Wiki page as a Korean "Right-wing Conservative" paper. Hardly a ] on a topic about left-wing political figures in Venezuela. | |||
| {{ping|146.115.72.47}} Could you please explain your recent changes? You haven't provided references to support them. --] (]) 14:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| 3) "The Chávez administration then used such oil prices on his populist policies '''to gain the approval of voters'''." is another example of speculating about intent of actions and is again not ]. | |||
| == Marxism == | |||
| 4) "Economists say that the Venezuelan government's overspending" gives no citations to which economists and "overspending" is again non-] language. | |||
| Chávez did affirm at the very least once in the National Assembly that he considered himself a Marxist, but in another speech he claimed he wasn't. Maybe we could fix this?. --] (]) 17:23, 15 December 2019 (UTC) | |||
| My edits were marked as vandalism and reverted multiple times. It seems like ] to me but I'm open to discussion. ] (]) 13:34, 15 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :You don't get to decide which parts of the information in source should be left out of article to make Chavez look good. All of this is properly sourced to reliable news sites.--] (]) 00:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::Accusing other editors of just trying to make controversial figures look good is against one of the fundamental principals of Misplaced Pages (see ]). | |||
| ::My edits are not about making someone look good, they're about building an article that has a neutral point of view (see ]) and that doesn't rely on cherrypicking from sources (see ]). | |||
| ::Please avoid status quo stonewalling (see ]) by providing a clear, substantive explanation of your objection to the changes that were made. ] (]) 12:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :I looked up one of the sources, the one for "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." This is an article in a South Korean newspaper, '']''. The use of this source is obvious evidence of cherry-picking. The editor looked for a source that supported his or her view. Obviously anyone reseaching Venezuela is unlikely to go to a South Korean newspaper for information unless they happen to live there. Furthermore, the opinions of newspaper reporters are not reliable sources for facts. ] (]) 02:33, 16 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Long quotes == | |||
| {{ping|MarioGom}} Sorry, I forgot to reply. I think that the mention that he described himself as a Marxist in the lede should be removed, or at the very least changed, since it isn't completely accurate. --] (]) 21:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Although I reverted the new editor who had what s/he described as a ], I do think the quotes are a bit excessive in length and can be trimmed. --] (]) 23:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Infobox image == | |||
| :I agree that the deletion was overbroad and likewise agree that this section is too long. A step-by-step approach to revising is probably better, focusing on the block quotes. ] (]) 23:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|User:Baprow}} Please achieve consensus before replacing the infobox image and follow ].----] (]) 23:51, 4 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::Indeed. Step-by-step is better. --] (]) 23:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{ping|Baprow}} Seeing that once again you have reverted the image, can you explain in the talk page? It appears that it is not the first time that you edit war over an infobox image. --] (]) 18:56, 6 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{re|David Tornheim|JArthur1984}} I agree as well. I may make some edits to summarize what is being said in each quote. If you have any concerns, you can bring link the edit here and we can discuss. ] (]) 02:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::Here is a list of my edits and their edit summaries: | |||
| :::# - Removing two quotes; the first was talking about the Caracazo events (which I shortened and provided context in the body) and the second was a very broad statement. | |||
| :::# - Summarized third quote | |||
| :::# - Removing coffee quote. Consolidating into "Criticism of capitalism and neoliberalism" and "Marxism and socialism" subsections. Soviet Union quotes consolidated. Tax reform and Mission Robinson quotes removed. Gandhi and Nehru quote moved to "Other influences" section. | |||
| :::Apologies for not spreading out the last edit, but a lot of it had to do with the organization of sections and seemed more appropriate. If you have any concerns, be sure to let me know!--] (]) 04:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Deleted section == | |||
| The image that you propose is not suitable for the infobox. For another place in the article, yes, but not for the infobox. It is too small and when you enlarge it the quality is not too good. There are many better images. In which I propose the president's face is perfectly visible without the need for extensions and its quality is better. --] (]) 19:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| One of the sections I created at the Talk part was deleted. Why? ] (]) 03:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :When I first saw both images, I noticed that one of the differences was to show Chávez either as a civilian or as a military. Since that was his career, I think the latter is more conveniente. There might be other similar images with better quality. --] (]) 21:52, 7 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Most likely, it got archived automatically. ] (]) 14:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::Although Hugo Chávez was a career military man, the highest position he achieved was the position of president, which is a civilian position. There have been other long-term presidents who were formerly military (Eisenhower, Nasser, Grant, Atarürk, Al Sisi ...) and they appear in their infoboxes in a suit and not in uniform, so I think that what they did before should not condition the photo of the infobox.Also, the photo is too small. I consider a photo in which your face is more visible to be more appropriate. --] (]) 15:59, 8 May 2020 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 23:39, 20 April 2024
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Llanero (sic)
Why the "sic" in the spanish word "llanero"? The spelling is correct... - Joaquin89uy (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Addressing unresolved WP:AL notice and WP:CON discussions
User:Duponiuex continues to revert my edits without explanations so here I am to discuss.
My edits were an attempt to begin resolving the 2014 WP:AL notice on the Policy Overview section and the unresolved WP:CON and WP:NPOV conversations from the talk page from 2015 and 2017, and also the 2018 WP:NPOV discussion.
For example: 1) "Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions, aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions, using these populist policies in order to maintain political power"
"in order to maintain political power" is WP:POVPUSH and speculation about intentions that is not supported by sources.
2) "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." is only sourced to one article by The Chosun Ilbo, which is identified on its Wiki page as a Korean "Right-wing Conservative" paper. Hardly a WP:RS on a topic about left-wing political figures in Venezuela.
3) "The Chávez administration then used such oil prices on his populist policies to gain the approval of voters." is another example of speculating about intent of actions and is again not WP:NPOV.
4) "Economists say that the Venezuelan government's overspending" gives no citations to which economists and "overspending" is again non-WP:NPOV language.
My edits were marked as vandalism and reverted multiple times. It seems like WP:IDONTLIKETHEM to me but I'm open to discussion. Edittttor (talk) 13:34, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- You don't get to decide which parts of the information in source should be left out of article to make Chavez look good. All of this is properly sourced to reliable news sites.--Duponiuex (talk) 00:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Accusing other editors of just trying to make controversial figures look good is against one of the fundamental principals of Misplaced Pages (see WP:GOODFAITH).
- My edits are not about making someone look good, they're about building an article that has a neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV) and that doesn't rely on cherrypicking from sources (see WP:CHERRYPICKING).
- Please avoid status quo stonewalling (see WP:STONEWALLING) by providing a clear, substantive explanation of your objection to the changes that were made. Edittttor (talk) 12:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- I looked up one of the sources, the one for "Chávez's populist policies eventually led to a severe socioeconomic crisis in Venezuela." This is an article in a South Korean newspaper, The Chosun Ilbo. The use of this source is obvious evidence of cherry-picking. The editor looked for a source that supported his or her view. Obviously anyone reseaching Venezuela is unlikely to go to a South Korean newspaper for information unless they happen to live there. Furthermore, the opinions of newspaper reporters are not reliable sources for facts. TFD (talk) 02:33, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
Long quotes
Although I reverted reverted the new editor who had deleted what s/he described as a WP:QUOTEFARM, I do think the quotes are a bit excessive in length and can be trimmed. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that the deletion was overbroad and likewise agree that this section is too long. A step-by-step approach to revising is probably better, focusing on the block quotes. JArthur1984 (talk) 23:53, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. Step-by-step is better. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- @David Tornheim and JArthur1984: I agree as well. I may make some edits to summarize what is being said in each quote. If you have any concerns, you can bring link the edit here and we can discuss. WMrapids (talk) 02:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- Here is a list of my edits and their edit summaries:
- - Removing two quotes; the first was talking about the Caracazo events (which I shortened and provided context in the body) and the second was a very broad statement.
- - Summarized third quote
- - Removing coffee quote. Consolidating into "Criticism of capitalism and neoliberalism" and "Marxism and socialism" subsections. Soviet Union quotes consolidated. Tax reform and Mission Robinson quotes removed. Gandhi and Nehru quote moved to "Other influences" section.
- Apologies for not spreading out the last edit, but a lot of it had to do with the organization of sections and seemed more appropriate. If you have any concerns, be sure to let me know!--WMrapids (talk) 04:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. Step-by-step is better. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Deleted section
One of the sections I created at the Talk part was deleted. Why? Vintaquar (talk) 03:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Most likely, it got archived automatically. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:50, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
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