Talk:Xiongnu: Difference between revisions

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	== The section in this article under archeological origin has a repeated paragraph. ==

	The section in this article under archeological origin has a repeated paragraph. ] (]) 07:44, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

	== Beckwith reference (Yeniseian connection) ==

	I've edited the Beckwith reference: it originally cited pages 51-52 and 404-405, when its actually referring to end notes 51-52 on pages 404-405. (I'm not sure if I've used the correct formatting though, so that may need correcting). More importantly though, I'm not sure that this is the best source for the claim being made. The book doesn't actually make any arguments for or against a Yenesian connection, just stating that such a connection has been claimed and citing sources: "''The case has been made for the Hsiung-nu having been Iranians (Bailey 1985: 25 et seq.), Kets (Pulleyblank 2000; Vovin 2000), or others''". Surely it would be better to cite ''those'' sources, rather than Beckwith's reporting of them? (I'd update the reference myself, but I don't have the sources to check what they actually say. ] (]) 13:56, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
	:In fact I've just noticed that one of Beckwith's citations (Vovin 2000) is already used as a reference for the same statement, and other works by Pulleyblank are used as sources later on, so the Beckwith reference is probably redundant (at least for supporting the Yeniseian/Ket connection). ] (]) 14:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
	::Misplaced Pages actually prefers secondary sources over primary sources (or at least in addition to primary sources), as they show that a hypothesis appearing in a primary source has been deemed noteworthy enough to merit mention by independent scholars, as opposed to being a failed trial balloon that is subsequently ignored by the rest of the field. It keeps Misplaced Pages more grounded in general scholarly consensus and less 'bleeding edge'. ] (]) 16:36, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

	== Korean connection ==

	I believe this paper http://contents.nahf.or.kr/directory/downloadItemFile.do?fileName=jn_009_0010.pdf&levelId=jn_009_0010 may help to explain or suggest a possible connection that Koreans were allies or part of them were members of the Xiongnu Confederation
	] (]) 23:52, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

	==To Interpret or to Mis-Interpret==		==To Interpret or to Mis-Interpret==
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	** Yet Pritsak did not explicitly mention the the Xiongu were Turkic speakers.		** Yet Pritsak did not explicitly mention the the Xiongu were Turkic speakers.
	** So again, whoever added Pritsak (1959) misinterpreted the source for ] POV-pushing.		** So again, whoever added Pritsak (1959) misinterpreted the source for ] POV-pushing.

			== Unable to edit this article ==

			I was going to correct a spelling in this article, but was prevented from doing so because it appears to be blocked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation! ] (]) 02:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

			:The article was given permanent protection in 2021 due to persistent, most likelly long-term vandalism. This is not some "ridiculous situation" that needs to be fixed, but rather a measure to hinder extensive vandalism. This will only change if an admin sees fit to lift the protection for some reason, which I personally hope does not happen. ] (]) 03:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

			== A new discovery of a seal with a Khunnu tamga on the territory of Buryatia. It is necessary to insert ==

			A new discovery of a seal with a Khunnu tamga on the territory of Buryatia. It is necessary to insert
			https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%85%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B9.jpg ] (]) 08:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

			== Adding new information to Turkic language section ==

			This new philological finding should be added to the Turkic languages section:

			Recent research has revealed that in chapter 96 of the ] (Han-shu), entitled "Western Regions", the Xiong-nu gave the title "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" to a ruler of the Lesser ] Kun-mo, a descendant of a Xiong-nu princess, who was killed in 30 BC as a result of a throne dispute. In chapter 50 of the ], Chinese sources clearly define the meaning of "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" as "wolf". With this military-political title, the Wu-sun were declared the protector of the western region of the Xiong-nu territories. For the same reason, this title was given to the ruler of the western wing of the state in the ], ], ], ] and ]. In addition, the word "böri" is a word used in all ], ], ], ], ]-] with the meaning of "wolf". These results may have revealed a connection with ], especially Turkic languages. ref: Çoban, Ramazan Volkan. (2023). Türk Mitolojisinde Kurt Kültü (Wolf Cult in Turkic Mythology). Mus: Alparaslan University Publishing. ] (]) 19:01, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

			:Yes ] (]) 22:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

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To Interpret or to Mis-Interpret

Four sources are listed to support the thesis that

Hucker, Charles O. (1975). China's Imperial Past: An Introduction to Chinese History and Culture. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0-8047-2353-2. page 136
Pritsak, O. (1959). "XUN Der Volksname der Hsiung-nu". Central Asiatic Journal (in German). 5: 27–34.
Henning, W. B. (1948). "The date of the Sogdian ancient letters". Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies (BSOAS). 12 (3–4): 601–615. doi:10.1017/S0041977X00083178. JSTOR 608717. S2CID 161867825.
Sims-Williams, Nicholas (2004). "The Sogdian ancient letters. Letters 1, 2, 3, and 5 translated into English".

Let's evaluate:

On p. 36 of Hucker (1975), it is written "The proto-Turkic Hisung-nu were now challenged by other aliens groups". So Hucker (1975) is correctly interpreted as supports the thesis that the Xiongnu were proto-Turkic speakers
Sims-Williams (2004) translated Sogdian Letters 1, 2, 3, and 5. Letter 2 mentioned the Huns (i.e. Xiongnu) yet letter 2 did not say that the Xiongnu spoke a Turkic language at all. Whoever added Sims-Williams (2004) misinterpreted the source for pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
Nowhere in Henning (1948) are the Xiongnu / Xwn asserted to be as Turkic speakers. The word Turkestan is found in page 602, footnote 1 "Cf. Bartold, Turkestan, p. 161", a source which Henning uses to support this assertion "No doubt the agents of the 'merchant-princes" of Sogdia' ". Again, whoever added Henning (1948) misinterpreted the source for pan-Turkist POV-pushing.
Pristak (1959): :
- in n. 24 on p. 32, mentions Ottoman-Turkish term for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks;
  - Es ist deswegen möglich, daß man -yü als einen chin. Spottnamen für ihre nomadischen Nachbarn, etwa 'Brei(esser)' nach der Hauptnahrung derselben zu deuten hat. Vgl. hierzu die osmanisch-türkische Bezeichnung für die ukrainischen Zaporoger-Kosaken Potqalï ,,Grützenbreiesserʽʽ (s. darüber Pritsak. Oriens , Bd. 6:2. 1953. 204). Verl. hierzu noch Anm. 25"
- Rough translation:
  - It is therefore possible that one has to interpret -yü as a Chinese derisive nickname for their nomadic neighbours, as 'porridge(-eater)' after their staple food itself. Cf. the Ottoman-Turkish designation for the Zaporizhian-Cossacks Potqalï ,,Groat-porridge eaterʽʽ (see above). (See on this Pritsak. Oriens, Vol. 6:2. 1953. 204). See also Note 25"
    Yet this is irrelevant to whether the Xiongnu spoke Turkic.
- In n p. 29 Pritsak wrote:
  - 5. Die in den ersten chin. Reichsannalen „kanonisierte" Bezeichnung für die (asiatischen) Hunnen 匈奴 Hsiung-nu ist nicht alt. Sie ist erst ab etwa 230 v. Chr. belegt. Sie gehört zu den Bezeichnungen der zweiten Gruppe. Das zweite Zeichen 奴 -nu pflegte schon Otto Franke entsprechend seiner chin. Bedeutung als ,,Sklaven, Knechteʽʽ zu übersetzen.
- rough translation:
  - The designations "canonized" in the first Chinese imperial annals for the (Asiatic) Huns 匈奴 Hsiung-nu is not old. It is only from about 230 BCE. It belongs to the designations of the second group. Otto Franke used to translate the second character 奴 -nu according to its Chinese meaning as "slaves, servants".
- For note 10 Pritsak cited:
  - Beiträge aus chinesischen Quellen zur Kenntnis der Türkvölker und Skythen Zentralasiens (Berlin 1904), 5; Geschichte des chinesischen Reiches, Bd. 1 (Berlin-Leipzig 1930), 134
- Rough translation:
  - Contributions from Chinese sources on the knowledge of the Turkic peoples and Scythians of Central Asia (Berlin 1904), 5; History of the Chinese Empire, Vol. 1 (Berlin-Leipzig 1930), 134
- Yet Pritsak did not explicitly mention the the Xiongu were Turkic speakers.
- So again, whoever added Pritsak (1959) misinterpreted the source for pan-Turkist POV-pushing.

Unable to edit this article

I was going to correct a spelling in this article, but was prevented from doing so because it appears to be blocked from editing. Please fix this ridiculous situation! 2605:A000:FFC0:5F:F9BD:9D:B97C:57D4 (talk) 02:12, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

The article was given permanent protection in 2021 due to persistent, most likelly long-term vandalism. This is not some "ridiculous situation" that needs to be fixed, but rather a measure to hinder extensive vandalism. This will only change if an admin sees fit to lift the protection for some reason, which I personally hope does not happen. Vif12vf/Tiberius (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

A new discovery of a seal with a Khunnu tamga on the territory of Buryatia. It is necessary to insert

A new discovery of a seal with a Khunnu tamga on the territory of Buryatia. It is necessary to insert https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%85%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B9.jpg Qwerty234234536 (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Adding new information to Turkic language section

This new philological finding should be added to the Turkic languages section:

Recent research has revealed that in chapter 96 of the Book of Han (Han-shu), entitled "Western Regions", the Xiong-nu gave the title "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" to a ruler of the Lesser Wu-sun Kun-mo, a descendant of a Xiong-nu princess, who was killed in 30 BC as a result of a throne dispute. In chapter 50 of the Tongdian, Chinese sources clearly define the meaning of "拊離 (fǔ-lí)" as "wolf". With this military-political title, the Wu-sun were declared the protector of the western region of the Xiong-nu territories. For the same reason, this title was given to the ruler of the western wing of the state in the Gokturks, Seljuks, Khwarazmians, Mongols and Anatolian Turkish beyliks. In addition, the word "böri" is a word used in all Turkic languages, Mongolic languages, Korean, Japanese, Manchu-Tungus with the meaning of "wolf". These results may have revealed a connection with Altaic languages, especially Turkic languages. ref: Çoban, Ramazan Volkan. (2023). Türk Mitolojisinde Kurt Kültü (Wolf Cult in Turkic Mythology). Mus: Alparaslan University Publishing. Philosophia091 (talk) 19:01, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes HaciMusto (talk) 22:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

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