| Revision as of 20:47, 16 April 2007 view sourceSean William (talk | contribs)6,648 edits →Hive: legal threat again← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:49, 16 April 2007 view source Sean William (talk | contribs)6,648 edits →Hive: more exact linkNext edit → | ||
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| ::I strongly suspect not as if that were the case he could easily have removed you. There is an internet page where DB explains his motives but I wont be able to link to it as editors have been blocked for linking to said site. Nice to see you still here, David, ] 20:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC) | ::I strongly suspect not as if that were the case he could easily have removed you. There is an internet page where DB explains his motives but I wont be able to link to it as editors have been blocked for linking to said site. Nice to see you still here, David, ] 20:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC) | ||
| :::It's another veiled legal threat by Brandt () . Careful, he's trying to build a good argument, and he's probably setting us up for his proverbial "home run". Nothing pleases Brandt more than taking down a huge sum of information to preserve his own "privacy". // ] (]) 20:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC) | :::It's another veiled legal threat by Brandt () . Careful, he's trying to build a good argument, and he's probably setting us up for his proverbial "home run". Nothing pleases Brandt more than taking down a huge sum of information to preserve his own "privacy". // ] (]) 20:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 20:49, 16 April 2007
Revision of history
Six years ago I said this was an interesting experiment, two or three years ago I pointed out fundamental problems causing Misplaced Pages to distort and conceal facts from the public. You ignored my suggestions then, perhaps you think we Xanadu people are too old for you and don't have any good ideas - I don't know why you've allowed this to devolve into a social club for self-righteous and those with a vested agenda.
Indef block of NBC reporter Lisa Daniels
On Friday Thursday Lisa Daniels reported a news piece on NBC news discussing the recent (?) controversy about the reliability of wikipedia and colleges banning its use as a primary source (see MSNBC report and Video Link). As part of the report, Lisa Daniels (using account User:LisaDaniels) edited/vandalized her own page on wikipedia on air to demonstrate the ease with which anyone can edit this encyclopedia (see edit).
Soon after the news aired admin Prodego blocked the user LisaDaniels account, fearing that it may be used by an impersonator of the reporter. He promptly undid the block after he was satisfied that this was not the case (see discussion here and here).
However since then, another admin and very experienced editor Alphachimp has blocked the user as a "vandalism only" account with this message, and is unwilling to undo it (see discussion here). I want to invite Jimbo and the larger community to comment on the appropriateness of such action. My reasons for objecting to the block are as follows:
- User:LisaDaniels's first edit was reverted within a minute of being made and she made no attempt to vandalize the page again. Instead her second edit was aimed at improving the page.
- The user's first edit was a violation of WP:POINT and she should have been (gently) warned for this. However blocking her indefinitely seems to be a violation of WP:BITE, WP:AGF and WP:BLOCK (specifically, "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages and should not be used as a punitive measure." and "Vandalism — Blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of vandalism. Dynamic IPs: up to 24 hours. Range blocks: about 15 minutes, then 1-3 hours, and 24 at most, to avoid collateral damage. User accounts with persistent violations may be blocked indefinitely.")
- There is no credible fear IMO (I agree that this is subjective) that a public figure like Lisa Daniels will use a account under her own real name to vandalise wikipedia willy-nilly, if for no other reason, out of fear of her activities being reported to NBC or general media watchdogs. Subjectivity aside, at least there is no evidence of this till date.
If the above reasons were all I had, I would have posted this message on the WP:ANI notice board and not here. However I think this case touches upon larger questions of how wikipedia reacts to neutral/critical reporting in media and how mainstream media, in turn, will view the reaction.
- As discussed earlier on this page and on Talk:Lisa Daniels, many editors take issues with the balance of the news item and the reporter's choice of vandalizing a page in order to illustrate a point. Note though, that unlike Colbert and the-instructor-whose-name-I-don't-recall, Daniels did not encourage viewer's to vandalize wikipedia articles; only pointed out the ease with which they can be edited. Of course, this attention, would attract both vandals and genuinely interested editors to the projects.
- I don't think blocking or rebuking a user who (relatively non-disruptively) reports on shortcomings of the wikipedia model is appropriate, even if one disagrees with the criticism. To draw another, potentially flawed, analogy, it is akin to disinviting a professor to a conference for the 'sin' of exposing a flaw in a widely used cryptographic algorithm that the public (mistakenly) relies on. I would presume that such a security-through-obscurity approach would be an anathema to a open/free project like wikipedia and that it would instead aim to encourage (constructive) critics and neutral reporters to join in the conversation rather than ban them from it.
- Looking from the external non-wiki perspective, the action of blocking LisaDaniels will be perceived as a retaliation for her reporting and that cannot be good for the project or its public image. I can imagine Jimbo being asked why a anonymous editor (such as, say, 151.196.183.248 (talk · contribs)) receives multiple warnings before being blocked for a short period of time; while a well known reporter is blocked indefinitely, without warning, for a single edit made under hear real ID on national television to educate viewers.
I invite your views on the above points. I hope it is clear that I am not attempting to defend reporter Lisa Daniels original actions (I myself am conflicted about that) or even complaining specifically against Alphachimp (since I believe he acted out of sincere conviction, and his views are probably shared by many others). My aim is get your feedback on how you believe wikipedia should react against mainstream critical media coverage and the concerned reporters. Thanks. Abecedare 01:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- She's been unblocked now. Tyrenius 02:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I share Abecedare's concerns here. We certainly should let her know that we don't approve of that type of thing, but had this been any other editor, they would've gotten a test1 or test2, and after following edits were productive no more would've come of it. Yes, we should let her know that we don't encourage or approve of that type of thing, but at this point I don't think an indef block is necessary to prevent further harm. (Now, of course, if she does it again, that's another story.) If anything, it might be more productive to contact the news station, and ask them to run a correction or clarification that the false information was quickly reverted. Seraphimblade 02:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Once again, we see public relations functions handled (well or not) by basically random, anonymous and unaccountable individuals. Does anyone realize how ridiculous we'll sound if and when she tells the public she was blocked by a fellow named "Alphachimp?"Proabivouac 02:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I share Abecedare's concerns here. We certainly should let her know that we don't approve of that type of thing, but had this been any other editor, they would've gotten a test1 or test2, and after following edits were productive no more would've come of it. Yes, we should let her know that we don't encourage or approve of that type of thing, but at this point I don't think an indef block is necessary to prevent further harm. (Now, of course, if she does it again, that's another story.) If anything, it might be more productive to contact the news station, and ask them to run a correction or clarification that the false information was quickly reverted. Seraphimblade 02:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly speaking - this is who we are - this is what wikipedia is - this is how we react. If this is not who we wish to be then we could change. But until we change, if we change, accept the reality. Admins are not accountable in real life yet they affect real life. WAS 4.250 03:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I wish people would take a longer term view of things like this, there was no immediate need for this block. We give malicious vandals more time than was given here, a little discussion with her would have gone a long way. We should try engagement first... RxS 03:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I know I am supposed to assume good faith, but I believe that the reason Lisa Daniels was blocked could be because she was not just an anon. IP and some editors were piqued by the content of her off-wiki reporting, rather than her on-wiki actions . Note that an anon IP 71.12.214.213 (talk · contribs) who made the exact same edit as Daniels received only a gentle warning on the talk page and no block. This is the reason I brought up this issue on this page, since IMO it concerns reaction to media reports rather than simply a matter-of-course block of an editor for vandalism. Abecedare 03:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Alphachimp's block was against the rules, since it did indeed block without warning as a "vandalism only" account, an account whose only two edits had been 1) to make a point, and 2) to fix the previous edit and make constructive additions to the user's own biiography (which proves QED that it cannot have been vandalism only). Which means Alphachimp not only violated policy, but also blocking her indefinitely seems to be a violation of WP:BITE, WP:AGF and WP:BLOCK (specifically, "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages and should not be used as a punitive measure." and "Vandalism — Blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of vandalism. Dynamic IPs: up to 24 hours. Range blocks: about 15 minutes, then 1-3 hours, and 24 at most, to avoid collateral damage. User accounts with persistent violations may be blocked indefinitely.") As has been pointed out. I see no reason why Alphachimp should be hauled up before ArbCom and threatened with desysopping, if not actually desysopped for a time, as punishment. Let's have some accountability in these triggerhappy sysops! I've yet to see it. This is how Essjay started (poor blocks, with refusal to reconsider), before self-immolating. And nobody did a thing about HIM, until he finally smeared everybody. SBHarris 04:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- To be frank, I'll be hesitant to propose any action like blocking etc against Alphachimp, since I think that would be punitive too and unnecessary unless his action with respect to Lisa Daniens reflected a pattern of behavior. My suggestion is that we not turn this into a blame game against a single admin, but rather reflect upon how wikipedia (and as WAS 4.250 pointed, that is just a collective noun for "us") should react to media reports/reporters in the future. I am certain such occasions will arise with increasing regularity as wikipedia's size and impact increases. I don't think we need new policies/guidelines to handle such situations though; just some discussion where a basic consensus can be reached and which can be referred to when we are next faced with similar circumstances. Abecedare 04:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Alphachimp's block was against the rules, since it did indeed block without warning as a "vandalism only" account, an account whose only two edits had been 1) to make a point, and 2) to fix the previous edit and make constructive additions to the user's own biiography (which proves QED that it cannot have been vandalism only). Which means Alphachimp not only violated policy, but also blocking her indefinitely seems to be a violation of WP:BITE, WP:AGF and WP:BLOCK (specifically, "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages and should not be used as a punitive measure." and "Vandalism — Blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of vandalism. Dynamic IPs: up to 24 hours. Range blocks: about 15 minutes, then 1-3 hours, and 24 at most, to avoid collateral damage. User accounts with persistent violations may be blocked indefinitely.") As has been pointed out. I see no reason why Alphachimp should be hauled up before ArbCom and threatened with desysopping, if not actually desysopped for a time, as punishment. Let's have some accountability in these triggerhappy sysops! I've yet to see it. This is how Essjay started (poor blocks, with refusal to reconsider), before self-immolating. And nobody did a thing about HIM, until he finally smeared everybody. SBHarris 04:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I know I am supposed to assume good faith, but I believe that the reason Lisa Daniels was blocked could be because she was not just an anon. IP and some editors were piqued by the content of her off-wiki reporting, rather than her on-wiki actions . Note that an anon IP 71.12.214.213 (talk · contribs) who made the exact same edit as Daniels received only a gentle warning on the talk page and no block. This is the reason I brought up this issue on this page, since IMO it concerns reaction to media reports rather than simply a matter-of-course block of an editor for vandalism. Abecedare 03:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Reactions like this, above, are precisely why administrators are starting to hate volunteering to help Misplaced Pages. I simply blocked an account that was created to vandalize, and I'm threatened with desysopping? Whatever. You're welcome to continue debating it ad nauseum on this page, my talk page, or any other page. I'll be busy blocking vandals and reverting their vandalism -- helping the encyclopedia. You guys should try it too. alphachimp 13:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yo! The account was NOT created to vandalize (I can show you examples of such accounts) but rather to make a point. Yes, in violation of WP:POINT, but newbies don't know much about WP:POINT-- it's not exactly one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages which newbies are greeted with, you know. And this person then (without needing warning) not only proceeded to correct their vandalism (which consisted of claiming on obvious fun to be a rock star, in their own bio!) with a more factual and detailed account of their biography. In other words, behaved in every way responsibly in cleaning up their own minimal mess. Following which, you blocked them indefinately, without any warning. Perhaps with some idea that people who PUBLICALLY attack Misplaced Pages are in for special penalties which aren't in the guidelines. And you have no indication that you find anything wrong with this. Even now. Instead, just the same stuff we got from Essjay about volunteering and being criticized for all the good work you do. Save it. You know how I knew Essjay had gone round the bend, BTW? He matter-of-factly threatened to desysop a sysop who defied him in removing a "nominations open" tag from her own userpage. That was when I knew the man was power-mad. I knew it before Brad and Jimbo and Angela and whoever they are, at Wikia, knew it (I'm not even certain they know it now). But I knew it, by watching how he USED his power. And by his complete refusal to come to grips with the idea that stomping on a newbie with an indefinite block, for a unwarned marginal problem (something Essjay did to me, also) might be a symptom of a problem in the admin himself. SBHarris 02:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Who's threatening a desysopping? In fact, most of the comments above have specifically made a point to say no action against you is wanted/necessary. The point is that the account made one vandalism edit and one good edit. With all due respect, clearly it's a much more nuanced situation then dealing with a vandal only account. Part of being an admin is being able to take a certain amount of civil criticism from good faith editors without lashing back at them. In any case, my point was that a public figure deserves at least the same amount of engagement as a anon writing poop on the dog page. RxS 15:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
So... a reporter demonstrates how to vandalize (as opposed to contribute to) Misplaced Pages on-air - thereby increasing the amount of work the rest of us must do and/or decreasing Misplaced Pages's overall quality should her viewers follow her example - and a respected admin's response is to indef-block her account. My only hope in all this is that the indef block appeared on-air, too, so as to demonstrate to this irresponsible reporter's audience that we have the means to actively defend our work. Since this is a special case of vandalism and no policy exists describing what to do in this special case situation, WP:IAR appears to apply. I also think Alphachimp's response was made in good faith, and suggestions that he's "power mad" are entirely without merit. Rklawton 02:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't (or shouldn't be) about Alphachimp. The point is that decisions on how to deal with the media shouldn't be made by Alphachimp. However, it's not his fault to have acted, as there is currently no one designated to do so. I would guess that the foundation hasn't the resources to do it. We need to identify a small group of trusted editors, operating under their real names and mature enough to make the right calls for the good of the project. These will be entrusted to deal both wisely and ethically with the press and the public. Other admins shall be directed to the a new noticeboard, WP:AN/PR, when situations like this arise.Proabivouac 02:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- As I have said before, I completely concur that this isn't/shouldn't be about Alphachimp. And I think applying WP:IAR is the worst possible path to go down in situations where the public image of wikipedia is concerned. If an admin/editor is not certain that their course of action under such circumstances is the right one (i.e. something that they would stand behind publicly with their real world identity attached), they should just stand back and let cooler heads prevail; or at least wait for consensus on the proposed action to develop. The potential harm they can cause the project with their unilateral hurried actions exceeds the likely good. Abecedare 02:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- And indeed, how in the world did we decide this was a WP:IAR case? Because a sysop broke the rules and we'd like to not talk any more about that? Come on! It's just a case where somebody didn't know a vandal from shinola. The women in question is a news reporter whose bio reports her to be a substitute anchor rather than an alternating one. She was probably about as ticked as if you read a wikibio on yourself and found it wrong in a way to make you look less (unauthorized bios are a bait for problems on Misplaced Pages, but it's a problem nobody is willing to fix). In the process of fixing this (she made 2 edits total) she made 1) saying she was a rockstar (reverted in 1 minute by somebody else) followed 14 minutes later by 2) her own more extended and accurate update to her own bio. End of her contributions. She got the sandbox #1 warning, very appropriately for a newbie who doens't know WP:POINT. Over the next few days a lot of people vandalized her page, including one user:donwano (as in Don Juan) on Mar 22, who redirected her entire page to POS News Reporters with an unflattering comment on her intelligence. For this, he received a warning. On March 23, Ms. Daniel got the official Welcome to Misplaced Pages 5 pillars message. On March 24, with all this before him, Alphachimp decided to block her indefinitely as being a "vandal account." Wups. So here we are. Not fixed till somebody admits a big mistake was made, and won't happen again. Which I have yet to read. So help me out. SBHarris 04:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sbharris, would that not be you above that complained about ignoring WP:AGF and in the same paragraph demanding Alphachimp be desysopped? I don't think what Alphachimp did was bad or wrong, and he obviously had good cause to do it. I think it's just something that brings up a matter we need to discuss. Seraphimblade 05:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think I asked that the man be THREATENED with desysoping, or desysoped for some fixed time (a token time only would send the same messsage). He's done a huge amount of good work, and I'd hate to be misunderstood as asking for him to be fired! If he'd just admit the mistake, indeed the problem would be fixed, and I'd be satisfied. I don't want an apology: what I want is a recognition that a bad decision was made, so that I can be confident it won't happen to somebody else. Fair enough? SBHarris 05:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- As long as we're on the subject, I must concur that Alphachimp erred, exactly as you put it. People will err if they are given responsibilities for which they are plainly not qualified. Presently, there is no assumption in RfA that the candidate is to act as WP's representative to the press.; instead it's described, in a turn of romantic asceticism, as a humble janitorial duty involving a mop and a bucket. To blame such janitors for performing poorly in PR functions is to miss the point: the fault is of the system which puts them in this position without ever asking whether they are even minimally qualified.Proabivouac 05:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think I asked that the man be THREATENED with desysoping, or desysoped for some fixed time (a token time only would send the same messsage). He's done a huge amount of good work, and I'd hate to be misunderstood as asking for him to be fired! If he'd just admit the mistake, indeed the problem would be fixed, and I'd be satisfied. I don't want an apology: what I want is a recognition that a bad decision was made, so that I can be confident it won't happen to somebody else. Fair enough? SBHarris 05:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sbharris, would that not be you above that complained about ignoring WP:AGF and in the same paragraph demanding Alphachimp be desysopped? I don't think what Alphachimp did was bad or wrong, and he obviously had good cause to do it. I think it's just something that brings up a matter we need to discuss. Seraphimblade 05:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- And indeed, how in the world did we decide this was a WP:IAR case? Because a sysop broke the rules and we'd like to not talk any more about that? Come on! It's just a case where somebody didn't know a vandal from shinola. The women in question is a news reporter whose bio reports her to be a substitute anchor rather than an alternating one. She was probably about as ticked as if you read a wikibio on yourself and found it wrong in a way to make you look less (unauthorized bios are a bait for problems on Misplaced Pages, but it's a problem nobody is willing to fix). In the process of fixing this (she made 2 edits total) she made 1) saying she was a rockstar (reverted in 1 minute by somebody else) followed 14 minutes later by 2) her own more extended and accurate update to her own bio. End of her contributions. She got the sandbox #1 warning, very appropriately for a newbie who doens't know WP:POINT. Over the next few days a lot of people vandalized her page, including one user:donwano (as in Don Juan) on Mar 22, who redirected her entire page to POS News Reporters with an unflattering comment on her intelligence. For this, he received a warning. On March 23, Ms. Daniel got the official Welcome to Misplaced Pages 5 pillars message. On March 24, with all this before him, Alphachimp decided to block her indefinitely as being a "vandal account." Wups. So here we are. Not fixed till somebody admits a big mistake was made, and won't happen again. Which I have yet to read. So help me out. SBHarris 04:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- As I have said before, I completely concur that this isn't/shouldn't be about Alphachimp. And I think applying WP:IAR is the worst possible path to go down in situations where the public image of wikipedia is concerned. If an admin/editor is not certain that their course of action under such circumstances is the right one (i.e. something that they would stand behind publicly with their real world identity attached), they should just stand back and let cooler heads prevail; or at least wait for consensus on the proposed action to develop. The potential harm they can cause the project with their unilateral hurried actions exceeds the likely good. Abecedare 02:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. An NBC Reporter vandalizes Misplaced Pages as part of a story (a violation of WP:POINT). She gets blocked. She later gets unblocked because she's unlikely to repeat the vandalism. Why, again, is any of this a problem? Seems to me like the system working fine and I'm not sure what the remaining concern is (note that I am not unaware of the PR ramifications, having spoken my peace during the Essjay incident). To me it seems like WP worked properly and since any reporter worth her salt would necessarily write about the response of WP to her activities as part of her story, I honestly don't see the downside nor any need for recriminations of any kind against anyone in this matter. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm. She made the 2 changes Mar 19 and got indefinitely blocked March 24. Now, what possible reason would there be for an indefinite block 5 days later, which was lifted for some reason after THAT? A short block at the time of the edits would have sufficed to allow the community to decide what to do about her unusual "crime" (if fixing your own inaccurate bio while violating POINT in public can be called that). But the time frame is wrong here for the use of ANY block, either short or long. Help me out on your reasoning. Indefinite blocks on individuals need good reasons, and finding one placed as what looks like an afterthought, after a newbie had been sandbox-warned then welcomed to wikipedia, is bizarre. I think the judgement on this one was just bad. BAD, that's all. Can the Misplaced Pages community not agree to this much, ask the sysop involved not to do something anything remotely like that ever again (a no-warning indef block, applied 5 days later), and have him agree not to, and let's move on? SBHarris 05:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason for anything different here than with any other block. Blocks are often contested, since we are not an autocratic body where all act with one mind. They are often lifted, applied, etc. amidst disagreement and for bad reasons. Most importantly IMHO, NBC/PR concerns etc. are irrelevant to the issue at hand (a contested block) since we should act objectively without regard to such affiliations. Again, I don't see why this is any different than any other contested block and why the 'community' should make an agreement regarding it. Beyond discussing it with alpha, I recommend you skip to the 'moving on' part and that we not call for anyone's head because of this. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- There is a policy on blocks, and the important part of it is that they not be indefinite, except under very special circumstances. That wasn't followed here. If you're suggesting we ignore our own policies when it comes to celebrity editors, then I would suggest we change the policy. Otherwise, let's have some (minimal!) accountability for sysops who violate policy. The part that really gets me here, is that we've all seen true vandals (and not just IP vandals, but people with usernames) dealt with ineffectually, after they've added page after page of the grossest, most impossible to assume good faith stuff-- page after page of deletions, obscenity, random typing and messages to classmates. With these people warned dozens of times and blocked with 24 hour limits. Then we get this incident, where a celebrity was first baited by an inaccurate wiki-bio of HERSELF (which is another of my own hot-button issues), and then blocked days later for fixing THAT as a newbie, because she did it in a way that embarrassed Misplaced Pages, basically, with WP:POINT. How sad for the process. But how ironic is that long before that, she'd behaved in an entirely adult and responsible fashion, fixing her own edit, and improving her own bio, all before any warnings. Then she got welcomed to Misplaced Pages. Then she ran afoul of the chimp. Having once been a victim myself of an indefinite and flawed block by a bad sysop, all I can say is that you have to have been on the receiving end, to really "get it." And to understand that this kind of thing goes right to the heart of the problems with faceless administratorship on Misplaced Pages. So no, I plead guilty to helping raise the stink on this one, when I could have kept silent. But it hit just a little too close to the mark for me, to do that. Sorry. SBHarris 06:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- All I can say (given the rather heated response you've made to my comments) is a bit more dispassion on your part might serve you (and WP) well. If it's so important, surely another admin will agree and press as hard as you are, but my instincts tell me your emotion on the issue is not productive. I'd stop with the unkind comments ('ran afoul of the chimp', etc.) and show some good judgment by example. Obviously, people make mistakes. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Good advice. I've said my piece and more, and will now quit. Discuss amongst yourselves. :) SBHarris 06:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- All I can say (given the rather heated response you've made to my comments) is a bit more dispassion on your part might serve you (and WP) well. If it's so important, surely another admin will agree and press as hard as you are, but my instincts tell me your emotion on the issue is not productive. I'd stop with the unkind comments ('ran afoul of the chimp', etc.) and show some good judgment by example. Obviously, people make mistakes. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- There is a policy on blocks, and the important part of it is that they not be indefinite, except under very special circumstances. That wasn't followed here. If you're suggesting we ignore our own policies when it comes to celebrity editors, then I would suggest we change the policy. Otherwise, let's have some (minimal!) accountability for sysops who violate policy. The part that really gets me here, is that we've all seen true vandals (and not just IP vandals, but people with usernames) dealt with ineffectually, after they've added page after page of the grossest, most impossible to assume good faith stuff-- page after page of deletions, obscenity, random typing and messages to classmates. With these people warned dozens of times and blocked with 24 hour limits. Then we get this incident, where a celebrity was first baited by an inaccurate wiki-bio of HERSELF (which is another of my own hot-button issues), and then blocked days later for fixing THAT as a newbie, because she did it in a way that embarrassed Misplaced Pages, basically, with WP:POINT. How sad for the process. But how ironic is that long before that, she'd behaved in an entirely adult and responsible fashion, fixing her own edit, and improving her own bio, all before any warnings. Then she got welcomed to Misplaced Pages. Then she ran afoul of the chimp. Having once been a victim myself of an indefinite and flawed block by a bad sysop, all I can say is that you have to have been on the receiving end, to really "get it." And to understand that this kind of thing goes right to the heart of the problems with faceless administratorship on Misplaced Pages. So no, I plead guilty to helping raise the stink on this one, when I could have kept silent. But it hit just a little too close to the mark for me, to do that. Sorry. SBHarris 06:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason for anything different here than with any other block. Blocks are often contested, since we are not an autocratic body where all act with one mind. They are often lifted, applied, etc. amidst disagreement and for bad reasons. Most importantly IMHO, NBC/PR concerns etc. are irrelevant to the issue at hand (a contested block) since we should act objectively without regard to such affiliations. Again, I don't see why this is any different than any other contested block and why the 'community' should make an agreement regarding it. Beyond discussing it with alpha, I recommend you skip to the 'moving on' part and that we not call for anyone's head because of this. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
If she hadn't fixed it, I would have supported any kind of block, and maybe have it on the news too. "journalist banned from wikipedia for vandalising on live tv!". But... she fixed/reverted herself, so as far as I'm concerned that counts as a "never happened".
Shoot. She displayed sanity, restraint, and wisdom. Oh well, we'll find someone to crucify someday. O:-) --Kim Bruning 04:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
My own personal experience is that indef blocks are handed out pretty freely. I imagine this is due to the fact that most admins are disaffected kids who like to have at least some sense of power (and that is assuming good faith, you should see my thoughts on these individuals when NOT assuming good faith). IMO the key threat to the long term success of WP are the admins (way too much authority with little to no accountability--a structural imbalance). At a minimum I think all indef blocks should pass a peer review first.MikeURL 17:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Normally I would think alphachimp was too harsh. But think about it. She demonstrated to every punk who happened to be watching the news how to vandalise wikipedia. This extreme circumstance needs to be taken into thought. Whether she reverted or not, the intentional damage was done in front of the entire nation. An indef-block too harsh? Hell, I'm suprised there wasn't a lawsuit. Mattbash 23:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- Per WP:THIRD, I'll submit my perception of this situation. Plenty of vandals who have vandalized Misplaced Pages in this manner have been blocked, maybe not of an indefinite duration, but blocked nonetheless; this user is no different. Instead of bringing this matter, which seems to have resolved itself, onto Jimbo's talk page, you should have just asked alphachimp to apologize on his or yours. He is human (contradictory to his name), and as such, he will make mistakes. If you would not have blasted his character in this manner with a normal vandal, why would you do so with one who happened to vandalize on national television? What's next, creating a request for arbitration just for a user who was blocked and, soon enough, unblocked? This whole debate is frivolous and should end (i.e. Abecedare, please let it go; alphachimp, please apologize). ~Steptrip 20:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Smile!
IsuzuAxiom1007 (talk • contribs) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
ASIJ
Hi, Mr Wales, I met you recently, you came to my school ASIJ. Thought I'd mention that. Why do alot of Admins delete accurate information on wikipedia, insult me, then inform me that the information is inaccurate?
Yours Sincerely, Alexander Turner aturner@turnerzworld.com
Thank You!
Smokizzy has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
Help with Wiki-rules.
Hi Jim,
My compliments, you look and seem like a great guy. I'm a newbie to Misplaced Pages and thus I'm trying to understand its structure. I posted a link - that I've come to learn that Misplaced Pages rules discourage posting your own like, but don't prohibit it. However, I did and an individual ( Ruhrfisch) reverted the link, failing to follow Misplaced Pages rules and had no justifiable reasons for doing so. When I questioned his actions he became highly defensive and attacked me...a course of events that Misplaced Pages rules state will happen when someone like Ruhrfisch does what he did.
Now, I'm having the most difficult time trying to find anyone in authority at Misplaced Pages who will make a ruling based on Misplaced Pages rules and not on opinion. Everyone seems to say that no one will do this, which begs the question - Why have rules if no one is going to uphold them?
Please direct me to someone who can assist me in taking this issue through the proper channels so that it can be resolved civilly, based on Wiki-rules. Thank you! DaVoice 22:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- Can you give us a link to the post? --KZ 04:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- On closer look at the RFC, it seems to me that Ruhrfisch acted properly when removing that link. As the RFC stated, the link failed the guidelines of WP:EL. And also, may I remind you that consensus by many editors usually reflects the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, not personal opinion. --KZ 05:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- This is my point exactly...Ruhrfisch did not act according to Misplaced Pages rules as I've indicated numerous times stating Wiki-Rules throughout that discussion. He only states opinions and yes in his opinion it fails. However, Wiki-Rules clearly state that a link that supports, gives credence to, items stated in the article are allowed. How is it that a link to photographs and articles about Newton Falls, Ohio and to the events listed in the article do not give credence to the article or fail to meet Wiki-Rules? Is it this clique? The very clique that Jim Wales speaks against having at Misplaced Pages? For Jim's sake...you allow a link to photos of a tornado, how less then is a link to photos about the Car Show, Bike Show, Cake Walk, Carnival, 44444 Event, Fishing Derby - or articles about the winners? Anyone can make a statement based on opinion, this is why Misplaced Pages has rules - or is it? Are you suggesting that I go around as a "watchdog" reverting links similar or worse than, such as the Youngstown Vindicator - Baltimore Sun? If a link to the | Newton Falls Leader is inappropriate, then based on Ruhrfisch's opinion a link to these newspapers should be reverted! DaVoice 16:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Jim - Can only imagine how busy you are...but I'd like to get this issue settled. I realize that in the realm of things, this is minute, but this is also about Wikipedians like Rührfisch and his distructive behavior here at Misplaced Pages. A 1,000 pages on his watchdog list leaves a huge venue for abuse, and as a founder, I would hope that you are concerned about people like him destroying what you've created. DaVoice 14:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Implement plan semi-willy-nilly
I just wanted to say that becoming a sysop is *not a big deal*.
I think perhaps I'll go through semi-willy-nilly and make a bunch of people who have been around for awhile sysops. I want to dispel the aura of "authority" around the position. It's merely a technical matter that the powers given to sysops are not given out to everyone.
I don't like that there's the apparent feeling here that being granted sysop status is a really special thing.
--Jimmy Wales Tue Feb 11 11:55:00 UTC 2003
I think the time has come to actually do this. Most people agree RFA is broken, you're one of the few in the position to do something about it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Random832 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC).
- I would just like to say, as a very recently promoted/appointed sysop, that I was both proud and humbled to receive the trust of the wiki community in my RfA. And I do not agree that RfA is broken - I failed one last year, which in hindsight I agree with. This year's decision, I hope, I will demonstrate was correct. But surely, the important thing is to have admins who are simultaneously competent and trustworthy. No?--Anthony.bradbury 01:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is arbitrary requirements like ten million edits in every namespace and a perfect record, that turns adminship into a big deal. --Random832 01:25, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Nobody asks for that. And "adminship is no big deal" does not mean that it is trivial.--Anthony.bradbury 01:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- It was hyperbole. But there's really no good reason for requiring large numbers of edits in each space - even in article space. I think part of the problem is it's so hard to take it away, so there's an irrational fear of not "getting it right the first time" and so people who should get the bit don't.--Random832 01:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think there are good reasons to require some experience and some personal attachment to the project from an admin of a top-ten website. Besides I simply do not understand how a person can be present on Wiki for half a year and do not have 3K+ mainspace and 0.5K+ wikispace contributions (or what is the highest requirement). Why would he want to be an admin? Alex Bakharev 04:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- If you actually make your own edits rather than leaving them to a glorified bot like VP or AWB, 3K+ mainspace per six months is a very high requirement. If each edit takes an average of five minutes (not unreasonable, if you're actually looking for things to edit and thinking about what to put, rather than trolling recent changes for vandalism to revert), that's 60 hours a week. You're basically saying that for someone who actually does stuff (rather than just running scripts) to be an admin, the wiki has to be a full-time job. --Random832 12:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- This is twenty edits per day or less than 2 hours a day according to your own estimates. I do not see it is an extremely excessive. Admins are suppose to be accountable that among other things mean that they present onwiki for a few hours everyday. Obviously not every edit can be done in five minute time. Some may require hours. On the other hand vandal reversion, tagging for cleanup, simple formatting according to MOS, categorizing, etc require significantly less than five minutes. I guess people writing FAs using an external editor might have problems with an edit count, but I never heard that somebody with a number of FAs was denied adminship based on the edit count Alex Bakharev 10:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- If you actually make your own edits rather than leaving them to a glorified bot like VP or AWB, 3K+ mainspace per six months is a very high requirement. If each edit takes an average of five minutes (not unreasonable, if you're actually looking for things to edit and thinking about what to put, rather than trolling recent changes for vandalism to revert), that's 60 hours a week. You're basically saying that for someone who actually does stuff (rather than just running scripts) to be an admin, the wiki has to be a full-time job. --Random832 12:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think there are good reasons to require some experience and some personal attachment to the project from an admin of a top-ten website. Besides I simply do not understand how a person can be present on Wiki for half a year and do not have 3K+ mainspace and 0.5K+ wikispace contributions (or what is the highest requirement). Why would he want to be an admin? Alex Bakharev 04:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
My two pence: I fully agree with the views of Jimmy: "I'll go through semi-willy-nilly and make a bunch of people who have been around for awhile sysops. I want to dispel the aura of "authority" around the position." While I do have full confidence in the process of RFA, sometimes the process gives highly distorted results in the name of consensus as happened in the case of Ambuj: Ambuj’s RfA. In case, you decide to make a bunch of people sysops, please remember Ambuj and many editors like him who should be endowed with the administrative tools to function more effectively. --Bhadani (talk) 06:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Rather than call upon Jimbo to implement a suggestion he mentioned four years ago when Misplaced Pages was a much smaller project, I suggest heading over to Misplaced Pages:Admin coaching/Requests where 48 people are awaiting coaches. I've been coaching several people and it's pretty easy and fun. Durova 07:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- Durova, thank you for your inputs. I will surely try to help as far as possible. Frankly speaking, after noting my comments, I discovered that the views expressed by Jimbo were the old ones. Wikis do not allow deletion (everything happily or sadly resides in the historical archives and after-thoughts are not useful) so I just left my two pence to accumulate some interest here despite having discovered that Jimbo's comments were the old ones and the wikipedia community has traversed a long way since then :) --Bhadani (talk) 07:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
While I agree that it shouldn't be a big deal, deadminship should be less of a big deal too. Then people would be more willing to give adminship out, and it'd cause less possible damage with having bad admins, you know. (And even then, it shouldnt be a big deal for them to get it back if they reform...) --Phroziac ♥♥♥♥ 21:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- In theory I agree. In practice that has two drawbacks: it would draw a lot of energies away from editing and administrative chores into desysopping and resysopping and the people who would take the greatest interest in that process would be the ones who got blocked by that particular administrator. We already have a voluntary process at Category:Administrators open to recall. Durova 16:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think I am verry smart and educated and techincally savvy, so I should be made an Admin by Jimmy Wales very soon. Or allowed to be one otherwise I'd say within a month perhaps? Gatorphat 03:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- RfA is not broken. It is functioning quite well. A few people dislike some other people's reasons for supporting or opposing candidates. They need to get over it and realize that those other users are entitled to make up their minds based on what ever criteria they would like to select. Johntex\ 04:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Real Vandals
What does Mr.Wales mean by real vandals? Does he mean people who are actually harmful, such as for example, someone who practises subtle changes of dates and information? -- The Serene Silver Star 00:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Could you give some context of when/where I said it?--Jimbo Wales 12:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Where you list your principles about how wikipedia will run. -- The Serene Silver Star 15:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Serious lapse by Admins
Jimbo, I have copied the text of the link below, in what is concerning a very serious incident on Misplaced Pages.org and the failure of the Admin section to issue a warning at the very least to the offending party. If the Admins fail to do their job of censure in these extreme personal attacks, at least someone at the TOP should Admin the Admins for their failure to even act in this regrettable episode. Because of that failure, there is no other option left but to inform you on your personal page.
Outrageous remark, backed by Admin? I have come across an extremely serious breach of standards here on Misplaced Pages. It concerns one editor encouraging another editor to do an extreme deed. I don't know the depths of this dispute, but this remark under the circumstances is totally intolerable, and I may have to bring this to Jimbo Wales, and the way WP has dealt with the issue. The quote is or at least followup on your threats with decisive action, and the link is . It's for you to investigate. -86.42.153.154 00:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- The user quickly realized the comment was unnecessary and retracted it. - auburnpilot talk 01:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- it not enough just wipe out that extreme attack and everything is OKAY. An apology is called for here , and a blocking. -86.42.153.154 01:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Wait, what will the blocking do? I mean, it is the apology that matters, right? The Behnam 01:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think the apology is implicit in the user retracting the comment. This is the Internet, this particular conversation was heated, we make mistakes, the user recognized his or her mistake and retracted the comment. An apology may be warranted and may be forthcoming, but dragging this out at ANI is unnecessary. --Iamunknown 01:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, editors are being blocked for much lesser attacks. This attack is ultra extremely offensive and should at the very least be challenged. It is the worst attack that I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages in my three years here. It's your call. -86.42.153.154 01:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Three years? This IP has only been editing today. Do you have another account? IrishGuy 01:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- In response to your whole comment, "No." --Iamunknown 01:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, editors are being blocked for much lesser attacks. This attack is ultra extremely offensive and should at the very least be challenged. It is the worst attack that I have ever seen on Misplaced Pages in my three years here. It's your call. -86.42.153.154 01:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- it not enough just wipe out that extreme attack and everything is OKAY. An apology is called for here , and a blocking. -86.42.153.154 01:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no continuing disruption and the statement was retracted, much like a fourth revert. I don't see any reason for a block, as these blocks are not meant to be punitive, last I checked. The Behnam 01:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. Is the user disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a WP:POINT? No. Did he or she violate the 3RR rule? No. Is he or she deliberately comprimising the integrity of Misplaced Pages? No. On top of all that, he or she retracted his or her comment. --Iamunknown 01:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- This is a isolated incident. The editors that have been blocked for much "lesser attacks" have received warnings and have PAed despite it. And they didn't retract their comments like he did. --KZ 01:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I hope that I haven't caused any offense to anybody by bringing this issue to your attention. I really do believe that personal attacks where editors encourage self destruction to other editors should not be tolerated for one second. -86.42.153.154 01:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- No worries, thanks for brining it up. It is always good to engage in discussion and clear up any misconceptions. :-) Regards, Iamunknown 01:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I hope that I haven't caused any offense to anybody by bringing this issue to your attention. I really do believe that personal attacks where editors encourage self destruction to other editors should not be tolerated for one second. -86.42.153.154 01:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, there are no worries for me here. I would be concerned for the well being of others, whoever they are. I am not looking for punishment (blocking), as I mentioned earlier, but I did suggest it, as no amount of punishment can redeem some situations. I would like to take this incident up with Jimbo later.-86.42.153.154 01:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
86.42.153.154 02:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- The IP address, which has 15 total edits, has been blocked for 1 week for disruption and probable sockpuppetry. Durova 16:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- And for block evasion on another sockpuppet IP, both IP addresses are now blocked for 1 month. Durova 20:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Attack article
Hi Mr. Wales. I have been trying to correct an article which seems to be motivated by personal attack. There has not been much I can do since I seem to be greatly outnumbered by the other side. You might want to take a look at it: Barbara Schwarz. To me this doesn't seem to be in the proper Misplaced Pages spirit of fairness and neutrality. Thanks. Steve Dufour 10:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- So...this "poor" woman sued 3000 defendants at the same time in order to "prove" she lived in an underwater base in Salt Lake and is married to a man who she claims is in the custody of the US government, but which she has no marriage certificate for and is actually a free man, and we're the ones who are biased? Nardman1 12:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I hope that Misplaced Pages has a higher standard. I wouldn't mind if the article was utterly deleted, but I don't think the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to attack a "crazy person". Steve Dufour 12:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- This issue was handled at length in the last four unsuccessful AFDs. Smee 19:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC).
- I hope that Misplaced Pages has a higher standard. I wouldn't mind if the article was utterly deleted, but I don't think the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to attack a "crazy person". Steve Dufour 12:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- The article's group of fans might be a little crazy too. :-) Steve Dufour 20:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
WOW
I used to come on here a long time ago, and there was mention of a vandal called Willy on Wheels, has kniowledge of him been hiden to prevent people from wishing to achieve his level of infamy? -- The Serene Silver Star 19:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. See WP:DENY. Hut 8.5 19:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Please help
I have recently came across Misplaced Pages in Bosnian.To my astonishment it is hugely biased, any atempt to talk or edit is being dismissed with no explanation. This particular Misplaced Pages grossly destroys what Misplaced Pages is all about. Personally I started doubting accuracy and reliability of information found on Misplaced Pages. For example it does not have a single tag for neutrality even in most ambiguuous or controversial articles. The language in its form only exist for several years and speakers of the language have very turbulent recent history,and the country where the language one of the three official languages, constitutes of three nations.However administrators and registered users come from only one of these nations and are hugely unfair towards the other two. I have tried to point out some geografical factual mistakes,tried discussing -no reply,tried editing all changes are reverted with no explanations, finally blocked with no warning nor discussion. I hape I came to the right address to point this out, if not my apologies, pointing out to whom I shall write would be hugely appreciated.A.P. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.175.241.217 (talk) 09:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
- You could go to Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment and solicit outside opinions on that article. Durova 16:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Request to an Administrator...
Please review the "Gary Lavergne" page and consider reverting the last set of changes. The assertions have no basis in fact and is accusatory. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.6.110.149 (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
- Onorem pruned the accusations down somewhat - good enough? --AnonEMouse 14:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you. The article is of an living person. The last paragraph is argumentative because there is no standard definition of mass murder. Some define it as the successive murders of individuals who were individually targeted--like Whitman, the San Ysidro McDonalds, or the Luby's Cafeteria tragedies. The Kehoe incident does not fall into that category--it was a bomb that killed indiscriminately and simultaneously. Please understand that the person writing that comment has been permanently banned (a.k.a. SubwayJack)on more than one occasion and has a long history of vandalizing articles connected to the Whitman Murders (Charles Whitman, Ramiro Martinez, Houston McCoy, and now Gary Lavergne). Check with Jimbo--he knows about this and what I am talking about. That is why I ask for reverting to the April 8th version, and the assignment of an administrator to monitor the entries. Again. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.6.110.149 (talk) 16:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
A Greeting lost?
Jimbo,
I have been here for 11 days editing and nobody has given me a welcome. I would be great I think if you were the first to personally give me my "welcome to wikipedia" message that everyone else gets. That would be awesome! Thanks, Gatorphat 03:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Speaking at VCU
I am very much looking forward to seeing you speak tomorrow at VCU. It will be very interesting to finally meet you. I'll see you tomorrow. All the best, ^demon 06:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- It was nice to meet you today. Unfortunate that you had to leave really quickly and get to the airport, but a nice experience nonetheless. I think the audience was very receptive to your speech and ideologies. All the best, ^demon 21:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, great presentation. It was great to meet you and talk to you, even if only for a minute. :) --Coredesat 23:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. Keep up the good work. --StevenL 03:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
FYI: per Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Department_of_Art_Education_-_Virginia_Commonwealth_University__.28history.7CWatchlist_this_article.7Cunwatch.29_.5Bwatchlist.3F.5D I've full protected the Virginia Commonwealth University article for one month. Durova 08:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
- After receiving some polite communication from the faculty I've unprotected the article and launched Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Classroom coordination as a venue where professional educators can get guidance with experienced Wikipedians about incorporating Misplaced Pages writing into classroom assignments. The idea had been at proposal stage for nearly a month and generated some interest so it was easy to implement it now. I'd like to get get the word out about the new WikiProject, perhaps a few lines in the Chronicle of Higher Education, and am interfacing with people from the Foundation toward that end. Durova 03:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikia Search
Hi,
Just some questions about wikia search. I'm Sorry for contacting you on this page, but I think that you may react faster to this one.
The wikia-Search project seems to be not active at the moment, because there are no comments on the mailinglist or in the forum. So I'm wondering how the project shall make further process.
For the moment it seems that we have rare ideas how we could make a fully new way of doing such a search - the most advanced may be mine while the others are more into distributed search and nothing radically new.
So, if you are really interested in this project you might have to invest more effort into. I think it will be needed to ask some AI-and-search experts from various universities if they can help. I therefore think on peoples linke Michael Strube who invented the WikiRelate! algorithm or Shaul Markovitch who invented an even better way, because they are already combining AI and Misplaced Pages for doing classification and search.
What r u thinking about?
MovGP0 00:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
German De Misplaced Pages Unscheinbar aka Carol Christiansen is back
If there should be a Holy Lord I beg that German Misplaced Pages is not going to be poisened again from this man.
Bliming heck when will they understand that this kind of people behave only like German former Blockwarts. Please have a talk to the responsible people at Wikipedi in Germany Thank you. Kind regards--80.144.244.229 09:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Gift for you
|
Dress Sword of Misplaced Pages | |
| In appreciation for being the genius behind Misplaced Pages, I present you with this dress sword. Feel free to wear it at any black tie event or other ceremonial affair. SU Linguist 19:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC) |
You might be interested/concerned
I've just left the following at WP:AN/I, touching on an issue that's concerned me for a while (not the specific question but the general one):
- I've somehow got entangled in a large set of articles — one for each episode of a couple of Disney situation comedies (for children): That's So Raven and Cory in the House (neither of which I'd heard of before, and both of which I wish I never had). See, for example Ain't Miss Bahavian, on which I've just done a lot of work, reduced from this (not the worst by a long way).
- The articles were typically long and sprawling, often with immensely long and poorly written plot "summaries", trivia sections, poor formatting, etc. I did my best to tidy them, and met determined opposition from a few editors, one in particular – Kid1412 (talk · contribs) – getting very emotional and abusive, though calming down after the intervention of a couple of other editors, and being cooperative for now. He or she has now admitted, though, to writing the plot summaries (or some of them, at least) while watching the series. There are no online or other sources so far as I can tell.
- Now, it's not important in one sense; as with more than half the articles here, the subjects are trivial, and who cares whether the summaries are accurate, well-written, properly formatted, etc.? (The same goes for the pop-music articles that I try to clean up and defend.) From the Misplaced Pages point of view, though, it presumably does matter. Or does it? Is our position that the guidelines and policies are only really for proper articles, and the fanzine side of things can be safely ignored, and allowed to go its own way? There are countless articles documenting the entire outputs of minor pop singers and bands, every episode and character in minor children's television series, discographies going into obsessive detail, all breaking many if not most of the formatting guidelines in the MoS and the relevant WikoProjects, including the fair use of images.
- My specific question is: what should I do about the case that I mentioned at the beginning? In theory the plot summaries should all be removed (in theory, I think, all the articles should go as being insignificant and making no claim to significance).
- My general question is: are we going to pay attention to the vast mass of the Misplaced Pages iceberg which most editors and admins prefer to ignore — the fancruft below Misplaced Pages's plimsoll line? If so, then I'll just remove all the articles from my Watchlist and breathe a sigh of relief. If not, then I'll need a lot more help...
I thought that you might be interested (and share my concern). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
My take is that as long as it is in principle attributable to some stored version that has beenpublished on the air or over cable and can be expected to soon be on DVDs that it should not be deleted on grounds of WP:ATT. WAS 4.250 10:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- There have been a number of responses at WP:AN/I, many of them sharing my concern. The opinion has been offered, and seems to be popular, that Misplaced Pages is just doomed to have a significant number of SIG areas that go against Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies, and we should more or less rope them off and let editors there do what they want. It would make my life a lot easier, but I can't agree. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- "If you aren't having fun editing Misplaced Pages, then you are doing it wrong" is what I always tell people. WAS 4.250 14:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me if I say that that's not only simplistic but straightforwardly false. Hell is (at least very often) other people. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikitravel
Wikitravel uses the MediaWiki software, which is also used by Misplaced Pages. However, Wikitravel is not a Wikimedia project; it was begun independently. Unlike Misplaced Pages, it uses the Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike license rather than the GNU Free Documentation License. What I wish to ask is that can I also start up with any such project like wikipedia or wikitravels with the help of mediaWiki software and that to free of cost. Thanks Sushant gupta 10:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah sure, the MediaWiki software is free to download and use for whatever you want. Go to http://www.mediawiki.org/ for details and downloads. --Sherool (talk) 14:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Not all Wikimedia projects are GFDL licensed; a notable exception is Wikinews, which is CC-by-sa. hbdragon88 21:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- A minor correction: Wikinews uses CC-by, not CC-by-sa. --Dapeteばか 21:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Concern regarding zealous admin
Writing a biography for recently deceased Education Administrator Cliff Turney, I found the article scheduled for deletion.
I understand the process involved, and believe that articles should face ruthless editing.
My concern is that the reasons given for the deletion are illegitimate. The article details a person notable under every single category listed for Academic.
The work is unfinished, and if it is to be deleted out of hand, I don't feel like doing more .. of anything.
It gets more concerning for me, as the person who listed it for deletion has done so for other articles I have proposed, in the past. When I go to the talk page to write in support, I'm faced with a Greek chorus who don't seem to be acquainted with the notability guidelines, but they just make the ambit claim it doesn't match. Some comments, like "non-notable academic who probably, like the great mass of men, lived a life of quiet desperation." I similarly recall such a comment on a previous, unrelated article. DDB 13:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Instead of appealing to Jimbo (who almost never intervenes in matters like this), why not try voicing your concerns directly to the editor who nominated the article? This encyclopedia is a collaborative project, after all. And if your statement above is in reference to the very brief conversation that you had at Talk:Cliff Turney, then you've mis-characterized it completely. A Train 14:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Also be aware that deletion discussions usually remain open for several days. You can continue improving the article and very possibly get it retained, if you really can document through independent sources that the person satisfies notibility standards. Durova 15:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
This is whacked
Larry Sanger has gone from "co-founder" to "founder" http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/technology/s/1004/1004213_take_wikipedia_with_pinch_of_salt.html SakotGrimshine 15:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Several newspapers are doing this: Hut 8.5 16:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- And the Guardian: Odd that they'd all do the "founder" thing in their articles - I wonder if Larry Sanger's reaction came in a press release or something that provided all of them a basis to work from. (addendum: the Guardian story does later in the piece identify Sanger as "one of the founders" - but originally IDs him as the founder.) Tony Fox (arf!) 19:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- What I find funny is that that journalist from the MEN (Manchester Evening News, that's what we call it here in Manchester) made a mistake. He said "the Irish town of Mayo". Uh, no, that's Swinford in County Mayo. So he really has no right to go on about reported inaccuracies. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 21:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- And the Guardian: Odd that they'd all do the "founder" thing in their articles - I wonder if Larry Sanger's reaction came in a press release or something that provided all of them a basis to work from. (addendum: the Guardian story does later in the piece identify Sanger as "one of the founders" - but originally IDs him as the founder.) Tony Fox (arf!) 19:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Canadian Heritage Alliance
I think we need a great deal of clarification on this article. One of the administrators continues to strip the article down to it's bare bones and there's a disagreement about what is considered to be legitimate sources. For example, this administrator has said that documents form the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal can not be used as sources unless there are sources from the mass media to back them up. The administrator is also stating (I might be putting words in thei person's mouth and if I'm wrong I apologize for that) sources from interested parties such as Matthew Lauder are unreliable (I include a sample of articles):
I think we would all appreciate some clarification on what is and is not a proper source. Thank you. AnnieHall 19:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- The best place to go for that is an article content request for comments. Durova 03:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I hereby request permission to alter Wikimedia Logos for my own public, non-profit use.
I know that those logos are copyrighted, so I am asking for permission before altering them in any way, or posting these alterations publicly. I have created a Google Co-op Wikimedia search engine for my own use, and I would like to combine - meaning place side by side in one image - several project logos in order to create a title image to use in place of the default text supplied by Google: "Wikimedia Search". The Search Engine is located here: http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=002002171166015021901%3Aiz3pyuxcryc Alex460 04:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- You can also try asking m:User:Anthere, currently the chair of the board of the foundation. She might be faster to respond, since Jimbo is a bit occupied in general. --TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 12:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
A couple of suggestions
You are probabaly aware of this, already, but I think it would be good to have a Wiki toolbar to gain easier access to search on Wiki. Other features could be added along, such as today's DYK, seperate search on Wikisource, etc. Apart from the toolbar, the search feature on Wiki could also be improved. One often needs to type in the correct text they are searching for, but if they're not certain of the correct spelling, they may get the wrong results, or no results at all. I also don't understand why the search engine makes a distinguishment between lower cases and capital cases. --Thus Spake Anittas 16:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- You'd probably have better luck discussing this at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical). —Remember the dot 02:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Disclosing my real life name and my real IP by checkuser Dmcdevit
Hi Jimbo. I am worried about this situation and I made a report at . Please look at it. Thanks.--MariusM 12:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
You have been impersonated on IRC
Hello Sir. I am just leaving a polite message to warn you that last night (14th April) / early hours of Sunday morning (April 15th), a user on IRC calling himself WoW8 (it is suspected he is a Willy on Wheels clone), changed his nickname to JimboWales7, and was attempting impersonate you on the #wikipedia-en, and #wikiversity-en channels on Freenode. After changing his nickname to JimboWales7, the user was asked to identify himself with your cloak, which He refused to do. Following a request to Freenode IRCops, one of the operators, Christel, placed a K_line against his IP (which is static) as a full network ban. I will be keeping a lookout on IRC in case he pops up again under a different IP. Thank you for your attention., Sir. Thor Malmjursson 15:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Did he claim to be Jimbo Wales or did he just choose that nickname? --Thus Spake Anittas 15:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- From memory, used nick and also claimed to be Jimbo despite objections and obvious evidence to the contrary. ShakespeareFan00 15:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Another impersonator appeared recently on #wikipedia and #wikipedia-en today under the nickname Jimbo_Wales2. // PTO 18:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- From memory, used nick and also claimed to be Jimbo despite objections and obvious evidence to the contrary. ShakespeareFan00 15:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks!
I want to thank Jimbo for making Misplaced Pages. Now I can research (almost) everything whenever I want to! Right here on the 'Net. Misplaced Pages truly is an innovation of teh Internets. Thank you.
I am from Uncyclopedia, though. I largely ignore their Anti-Misplaced Pages stuff. Even though I am much more largely associated with them than here.
But thanks for Misplaced Pages.
-- An IP —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.73.111.231 (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC).
ED
I think it's time for the people of Misplaced Pages to stand against the ArbCom and add back in links to ED. Many of us also edit at ED, and would like links to edit it back in. What is wrong with ED? They are very informative about LiveJournal evemts! Hopefully you approve, or we poor workers will overthrow ArbCom and you! August 2 2005rps 01:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- What's "ED"? -- Hoary 01:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, it's not going to happen. ED is Encyclopedia Dramatica, a site that is well known for its attack pages on Wikipedians. // PTO 01:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I would add its attempts at disruption of Misplaced Pages process as well. For example, this attempt at an AFD by the above user. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 01:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, it's not going to happen. ED is Encyclopedia Dramatica, a site that is well known for its attack pages on Wikipedians. // PTO 01:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I notice how people from ED with 1 or 2 edits go around nominating articles for deletion because ED got deleted (including the original poster of this thread). The site basically goes around bashing everyone who works to help any wiki that's not ED -- they even impersonated an administrator here and claimed she had a miscariage for her pregnancy and spread all these horrible rumors. ED is always spreading false rumors and should be banned forever. SakotGrimshine 15:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- They also have the Misplaced Pages logo on their page about us, a clear copyright violation. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 20:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Regaining Identity! User:Jeffrey Newman
I spent a little time with Misplaced Pages in 2005 and have returned occasionally to read stuff but could never log-in. My impatience level is high so I did not hang around. These past couple of days, I have realised that, since I want to do some serious work, it is worth persisting. But I am told that since when I originally created my account, I did not supply an e-mail address, it is impossible. Nothing is impossible - so I've come here to ask for help, hoping that you will not personally have to be involved but that someone else may pick up this request. As far as my queries re CIA, perhaps I watch too much West Wing (I received the whole set as a "65th" present from my family - I'm in the UK) but they would be stupid NOT to be ensuring Wiki survives - and though 'intelligence' might not be a characteristic, that level of stupidity is unimaginable. Experiences logging in to Misplaced Pages in Moscow were also interesting! But, since I have nothing to hide, I might as well join in. More than anything else, however - many congratulations on getting this whole enterprise up and running. It is 'awesome' (which is not an everyday word from an elderly Brit! Thank you. 85.210.255.81 01:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. Why does "User Name:Jeffrey Newman" come out in red, not blue? - Jimbo: I really do NOT expect you, personally, to have to answer this!
- The email reqirement is I believe for those who lose their password and want a new one emailed to them. If "nothing is impossible" them remember your old password. Otherwise, some things are impossible and you perhaps should create a new account. WAS 4.250 02:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I presume you mean User:Jeffrey Newman, and that is your real name. The procedure to recover your account would be as follows: Find an administrator (or other well-respected Wikipedian) who lives close to you and prove your identity to them. They should then contact a developer, who will set the email address on your account to the address you choose, and you can then use the normal password recovery system.
- Developer time is a precious resource, and they probably would prefer not to get such requests, so as an alternative, consider getting a new account, perhaps User:Jeffrey X Newman where X is your middle initial, or User:JeffreyNewman without the space, or User:Jeff Newman if you don't mind the contraction of your name, and then move the old user and talk pages to the new name. This is the easiest way to go.-gadfium 03:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. NZ is almost as far from UK as it is possible to be (though we shall be there in December!) How do I find out if there is an Administrator in London, to whom I could pay a visit, or send a copy of my passport, or something? 85.210.255.81 04:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Look at Category:Wikipedians in London, and pick a name you recognise from 2005, or look for an intersection with Category:English Misplaced Pages administrators, neither of which will be comprehensive lists. You could also ask at the talk page of the Misplaced Pages:English Wikipedians' notice board. Before you go to any trouble, wait to get some responses to my idea, as the developers might not be willing to do such a thing, or it might not be possible for technical reasons (if the email address is encrypted in the database, for example).-gadfium 05:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any intersection of those categories, so the notice board is probably your best bet.-gadfium 05:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
It is generally quite rare for an account to be usurped, especially if the account does not have any permissions beyond "user" (though even then it's rare) and especially if no e-mail address was specified for the account. Nonetheless, proving your identity should not be all that difficult. I'm going to assume that you have an e-mail address with pipex.net. If this is the case, please contact privacy@pipex.net and ask them to e-mail me (or another admin) with confirmation that the e-mail address belongs to Jeffrey Newman, and then send me (or the same admin) an e-mail from that account verifying that it was you who made this request. Per the terms of their privacy policy this should be acceptable, and it should serve as adequate proof of your identity. The request can then be passed on to the devs, though it will likely take a very long time to complete. AmiDaniel (talk) 07:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Or, an interesting thing I just ran across, you might register with Trufina.com. Never used it before, but it looks like a fairly reliable way to prove one's identity. AmiDaniel (talk) 07:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Only for Americans, as far as I can see. It is geared around doing record searches based on a social security number. Metamagician3000 08:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
London Times
You may be interested in this letter which was pulished in this morning's edition of the London Times . Perhaps it is about time Misplaced Pages had an official spokesman/person to counter these negative claims in the British press. Giano 08:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I nominate that fine user, Giano. Trouble is, there's an element - only an element - of truth in these claims. People who falsely claim that obscure Australian TV journalists have rock-star siblings don't help, for example. Neither does all the fannish cruft. That said, the writer of this letter sounds like someone with an axe to grind, and lots of people will surely see him this way. Metamagician3000 08:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- There are several points here. First, that correspondent does indeed seem to have an axe to grind. Secondly, as ongoing events continue to show, there is indeed more than a kernel of truth to what he claims. Thirdly, there are positives and negatives in the British press (excepting the gutter press, which is unlikely to take an interest in this particular area anyway) just as there are everywhere. If you don't like the letter or the article, then send your own counter-argument to The Times. It might get published, it might not, but I think cranking up the Misplaced Pages propaganda machine is unlikely to help and may in fact be ultimately counter-productive. Badgerpatrol 09:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- The (London) time is well known for printing seemingly controversial letters on various topics, However, it is also known for allowing people to respond to letters it prints. These need not be from offical bodies. Personally, I think the letter writer is wrong on some points. The other argument being if he thinks edits are being removed by cabals why doesn't he raise this with the community here? Presumably he tried to.
- Misplaced Pages, has endless triva that is accepted, however there IS a lot of well sourced infromation in Misplaced Pages that would not be in other encyclopaedias with 'closed' edit models. A case in point being biographical details on obscure opposition leaders in questionable regimes. In addition, Misplaced Pages is not censored, hence in respect of articles on religion what might appear to be biased, when is in fact valid comment, just not palatable comment.;-)
ShakespeareFan00 13:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Metamagician, but no I don't talk to the press in any way shape or form, and the unseemly spectacle of various editors airing their differences publicly in the Times would be enough to put people off their breakfast and wikipedia for good. A Minister of Education endorsing Misplaced Pages is to be encouraged here, not allowed to be undermined by the likes of Larry Sanger and other disgruntled editors so Misplaced Pages needs to respond officially to all such public comments as this. Millions of people find our work here helpful and useful - we should be proud of that and not allow it to be demeaned. We the editors put in the work - it is up to "senior management" to defend us and our efforts. Giano 13:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I doubt if The Times is going to offer itself up for editors to have a pop at each other over trivialities. However, it may print a reasoned response outlining in s substantive form a counterargument. Generally, the use of Misplaced Pages should be encouraged, obviously- it's a fun way to learn new things which one can then check and independently verify. It's my experience that schoolchildren (and indeed often even university undergraduates) may lack the skills needed to differentiate between different sources and weigh up their usefulness. If the education secretary is suggesting that Misplaced Pages is a usable source for school essays and the like, then he is frankly wrong. It's possible that he doesn't actually understand what Misplaced Pages is and how it works. In any case, it's silly to get involved in Wiki-propaganda or tit-for-tat press releases and so forth, that's not the Wiki way. The success of Misplaced Pages (for what it is) is manifestly obvious to all. Badgerpatrol 14:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, a random English language Misplaced Pages article is more reliable than a random mass media article. WAS 4.250 16:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm. And double hmm. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm indeed! If we were certain it was him, then I would write a fully referenced section in his biography reporting his hobby of writing letters rubbishing wikipedia to national newspapers (see the talk page ) - but there could be two people of that name both domiciled in Matlock - so we have to give benefeit of doubt. If on the other hand Misplaced Pages felt that the co-incidence was too great to be in doubt, then the foundation could inform the Times their correspondent was in fact permanently banned from editing the project. Hence even The Times is not exempt from publishing dodgy information. Giano 17:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Smile
Djmckee1 has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.
You are the best Wikipedian in the world and one of my greatest heros.Djmckee1 14:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello - Question
Hello Jimbo. I'm having a bit of a problem with one of wiki's users. His user name is Kronecker. The problem is that i have been adopted on Wiki and am doing lessons with my adopter. Ive edited some articles and write dome also. I have made some mistakes as you do (we all start somewhere, like you did when you co-foundered wiki) and he is picking up every mistake i do and posting it on my wiki page. I would not mind that bud he is doing it in a unnice way and calling me an idiot. This is what he said (hes done it twice):
Are you an idiot? That plot synopsis wasn't encyclopædic at all. You shouldn't capitalize titles either - use italics. --Kronecker 07:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
so i said privatly: I would appreciate it if you do not call me an idiot on my user page. I have been adopted on wikipedia and am learning how to write articles properly, so i don't need you to tell me im an idiot because: Alec1990 15:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Quote > Are you an idiot? That plot synopsis wasn't encyclopædic at all. You shouldn't capitalize titles either - use italics. --Kronecker 07:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC) <Quote
This is immature of you and i would appreciate it if you would not do it.
Thanks Alec
Then he said: Why have you labbelled all your contributions minor edits. You are an idiot. --Kronecker 00:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Ive asked him privately to stop and via his talk page and he has done it again. Ive had a look at the user dispute page and i just don't get it. its complicated for a newbie.
He has done this in the past and has been blocked before.
I would really appreciate if you could help. Thanks Alec
- I've issued an NPA reminder to the editor in question, and will leave a note on User:Alec1990's page as well. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hive
Daniel Brandt's notorious Hive Mind page which gave info on various editors and admins who work here including yourself and myself has been taken down. I thought you would be interested to know, SqueakBox 17:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder if that was my doing. I have recently sent wikipedia-watch emails demanding that I'm removed from the page on the grounds that my username is no longer Dbiv and I am no longer an administrator, contrary to what my entry used to say. I would like to claim all due credit, naturally. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 18:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I strongly suspect not as if that were the case he could easily have removed you. There is an internet page where DB explains his motives but I wont be able to link to it as editors have been blocked for linking to said site. Nice to see you still here, David, SqueakBox 20:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's another veiled legal threat by Brandt () . Careful, he's trying to build a good argument, and he's probably setting us up for his proverbial "home run". Nothing pleases Brandt more than taking down a huge sum of information to preserve his own "privacy". // Sean William (PTO) 20:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)